Slashdot Mirror
The Future of RPN Calculators
Noksagt writes "HP's recent release of the 33s won't be the last RPN calculator. Former HPers at Hydrix are hyping an impressive Linux-based PDA/calculator, named Qonos. They have a survey up regarding features, etc. More information can be found at comp.sys.hp48 or The Museum of HP Calculators.
A new open hardware project called OpenRPN has also begun. Their mission is to produce horizontal and vertical format scientific RPN calcs and later a graphing calc."
HP calculators might be more competitive today if Carly hadn't decided that it would be a really good idea to dump the HP calculator engineering team to "save money".
May we never see th
...is to be a teeny-tiny niche market, like Linux handhelds (compare and contrast: Number of Zauruses sold vs. number of iPaqs sold).
The Masses don't understand RPN, don't understand why anyone would want to use a "backwards" syntax, and aren't interested in listening to us nerds when we explain the very real benefits of grokking stack-based systems.
Honey, I shrunk the Cygwin
Q'onos? Isn't that like the Klingon homeworld or something?
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Inconvenient? I can perform complex calculations MUCH faster using RPN than I can with an algebraic calculator. No worries about misplaced parantheses!
I installed The DIV Calculator for PocketPC on my Windows CE device because I missed my old HP32s.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
maxima.sf.net is a truely awesome symbolic algebra program, it is derived from one of the first ever 'modern' computer algebra systems and was recently made open source.
If it could be put into a calculator, that would rock.
http://notanumber.net/
Spoken like someone who's never used it.
I was addicted after using it for, oh, a month. It took some getting used to, though. Unfortunately, I didn't realize I liked it until the calculator (HP 48g+) was stolen. I pity the poor sap here on campus who buys it from whoever stole it, but isn't able to use it.
tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
Surely it should be
RPN Calculators Future of the
I see from the information about the "Qonos" Linux based calc that it uses an XScale (ARM) processor - like the Zaurus's do.
If it's using the same OS, on very similar hardware, the Zaurus would be a good development/prototype platform. And, it would give us Zaurus owners a good calculator option.
Seriously, why are we worried about the "future" of inconvenient input formats?
How is RPN inconvenient? Sure, it requires a change of thinking initially, but the gains are traditionally a lot more than the initial effort required. Even just in my limited use of RPN in a college environment, I have seen the benefits as far as speed and yes, convenience.
In one of my recent math classes, the instructor spent 20 minutes helping people to enter a semi-complex formula with parenthetical notation. With RPN, I didn't have to deal with messy parenthesis, I just got the work done. As an added bonus, I got to spend those 20 minutes practicing my written Chinese. :)
"Wow, you're like some kind of superhero able to ward off happiness and success at every turn."
-- Ryan Stiles
Other obligatory comments:
There's more details and pictures on hpcalc.
Quote:
Operating system:
eCos, running in 512KB SRAM and providing one month of battery life
Linux, running in 64MB of SDRAM and providing considerably more than a day of battery life
Other software:
Emulation of both the HP 49G and the TI-89
Advanced math software: Gnuplot, Giac/Xcas (supposedly better than Maple), MathsExplorer
PDA software: calendar, tasks, notes, time management
Datalogging capabilities
Processor:
Intel PXA 263 XScale processor, running at 400 MHz
32MB of on-chip flash memory
32-bit data bus
Display:
Grayscale 3" 320x240
Full support already exists for a color screen to be offered at a later date
Other hardware:
Mono speaker and microphone
Stereo audio input and ouput ports
Keyboard with tactile feedback designed for fast, accurate data entry
Compact Flash Type II slot
SDIO slot
IrDA port
USB client and host ports, supporting external keyboards, webcams, and other devices
Optional sled:
Vernier probe compatible
8 analog I/O channels
16 digital/sonic I/O channels
Extra high-capacity lithium ion battery
DB-9 serial port
Price:
Over US$350
On the other hand, RPN does inspire near-religious devotion in some, especially those who used the early HP calculators back in the 70's. My engineer dad would have killed for one of those back in '74 or so, but they were too expensive at the time.
Have you read my blog lately?
From the OpenRPN Project Website
Here is a short list of some planned features:
*Philips LMC210x ARM7 CPU
*Flashable ROM
*MMC/SD expansion card support
*20 digit accuracy
*USB connectivity
*Several forms of I/O
*3"x5" PCB for internal expansions/modules
*Hi-Resolution LCDs
*All aluminum watertight body
*Molded-through keytops (customized sets will come standard)
*High-durability anodized finish
*Customizable keyboard overlays
*Positive tactile keys
*Reverse RPL compatability
*A nice thick manual
This sounds just like the PDA I would Love to have which is of course the point here.
My single question is one of integration in that I do not want to carry a full-featured Calculator and a PDA I just want the PDA itself yet with this awesome calculator function integrated. Where does the line exist anymore between PDAs and Calculators especially Linux powered devices?
I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. -- Hunter S. Thompson
RPN is NOT inconvenient if you get used to it.
I actually prefer RPN.
Calling atheism and agnosticism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.
Is it just me, or does that have the same ring as "fuel/air explosive-based cigarette lighter"?
As a high school student, I loved my HP "Reverse Polish Notation" calculator. Whenever someone would ask to borrow it, I would say, "Sure, you just have to remember that if you want to add 4+2 you have to enter '4', 'Enter', '2', 'Plus'."
This scared everyone away, and they went on to borrow someone else's calculator. I didn't have any trouble with people "forgetting" to return the calculator, I still have it to this day. Thanks, HP!
they need to fix those buttons. I mean, the old style buttons on the 32SII and the 48GX rocked. Why, or why did they ever have to change to those evil plastic buttons? Was this a cost-saving thing, or just a tatic to make sure the calcuators died out?
My UID is prime and so is this number: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0.
I've got a hp48gx and always suffer from this kind of situation:
- hey, can you lend me your calculator?
- no, you won't know how to use it.
- yes I will.
- ok, if you really want.
- [1] [+]: + Error: Too Few Arguments hey it's not working!
- I told you...
I don't want my calculator to be my PDA. I have a PDA for that. They're different devices with different interfaces and should be used for different things. I put an RPN calculator on my Palm and, although I can use it, it's awkward and clunky. I use it only when I have no other choice.
I don't want a graphing calculator. I like my one line of text. If I need to graph anything, then I'm probably doing it for a complicated reason, and I'll fire up Matlab or Origin at my desktop. My calculator is for, just that, calculating.
The website brags that this thing has a whole month of battery life in it's low-power mode. Big fricking deal. I bought my HP in about 1990. I have replaced the batteries in it exactly ONCE. There's nothing more useless than a calculator that you've picked up and realized you forgot to plug it in last night to recharge it, and it's dead.
I don't want a fold-out keyboard that's probably fairly fragile and won't last too long. I want something sturdy that will stand up to significant, continuous use for years to come.
Why can't someone just build a good calculator that does what it's supposed to, and not some calculator / PDA / laptop / Borg monstrosity?
I am going to start calculus next year as a softmore. Can you explain this in more detail, with out actually using calculus? I want to know because I would like to buy a new calculator this summer, and I want to share this with my calculus teacher. I've tried RPN on my TI-83 plus (with RMN III and CABAMAP applications), and found it to be minorly surperior.
Simon's Rock College
*cough*matlab*cough* erm, mathematica? maple?
Your Mom
No worries about spelling, either. :)
:)
The modern calculator should be able to handle easy RGB triplet to hex conversion, as well as IP xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx 'Bruce' format (I can't remember what that format is called, so I just refer to it as Bruce to save confusion) to 32-bit format.
Oh yeah, and a built-in function for calculating the air speed velocity of laden and unladen African and European swallows, based on various factors such as wind speed, elevation (density of air, ya know), age & weight of birds and any burden they may be carrying. Granted, even with that, it won't be all THAT accurate, but it's better than clacking two coconuts together
Oh, it should also have built-in 802.11g WiFi & IEEE1394.b.
And If I can use it to control the TV remotely, that'd be great, thanks.
I still prefer the physical format of my trusty HP11C, but then again, I don't need graphing ability in my calculator. Graphing's for nerds.
For those who love RPN, check out this RPN calculator for GTK (now GTKmm2.2 compliant):
ghsiloP
I discovered last night that the stack doesn't scroll when you add lots of values, but I'll fix that soon.
that means one more 1st year engineering student hazing ritual down the tubes. First the slide rule and now RPN calculators. What's next?!?
Real geeks want an HP 16C replacement. My 16C's still going, and on only it's 3rd or so set of batteries since 1982. http://www.hpmuseum.org/hp16.htm
People just freak out over RPN for no reason. I taught several college friends, none of whom were math wizards, about the joys of RPN and every one of them became hooked. RPN just seems backwards because everything is fed to us in a linear, "algebraic" way. But the fact is, RPN is actually much more intuitive once you get past the initial "wall." With RPN, you do calculations the way you would with a pencil and paper - or in your head: Break the problem into chunks so you get intermediate values, then operate on those intermediate values, and so on until you're done.
Just starting at the left and working your way to the right, all the while keeping track of parentheses is NOT intuitive. It's just familiar.
Here in the UK, they're forbidden in exams (up to and including university level) and frowned upon as a distraction and hindrance to being able to visual graphs yourself.
Because that calculator has already been built, and you already own it.
Thus, building it again isn't likely to be profitable.
paintball
Having to reenter a large formula just to change a constant is a pain with RPN. Once you get into that Mathematica/Maple working mode where you edit expressions I think algebraic wins.
I have an HP48SX and HP48GX which I like but never use -- I use a great command line program called "calc" in Linux. If I don't have calc I use bc. Both have readline support (assuming GNU bc).
Everyone in the Slashdot community seems so worried about the Microsoft monoculture, and yet here we are pushing linux into every possible niche. It can't be optimal to have the same OS running on both our calculators and our supercomputers.
Am I part of the core demographic for Swedish Fish?
During "Y2K", we had to do lots of testing of interest accruals, and it was a lifesaver.
LONG LIVE RPN.
A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
It's a calculator if you just need to press one button to find the cos of a value.
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
For the keyboard.
THE NERD IS THE COMPUTER.
Dotted quad, thaaaaat's what I was trying to remember.
Another good feature of the calc would be to enter either an RGB triplet or a hex colour code and have it find the nearest web-safe palette colours (on either side). That'd be just dandy.
And built-in unit conversions wouldn't hurt. Volkswagens to other volumetric measurements, football fields to meters, and whatnot. And hogsheads, don't forget the hogsheads! And 'stones,' so we can figure out how much Bridget Jones weighs in the upcoming sequel.
And hands, so we can figure out how tall horses are. And what with the petrol crisis in the U.S., dollars per gallon to pounds per liter (or Euros per litre), just for comparison. I'm told those in Europe would be pretty happy to be able to get gas for 'only' US$2.35/gallon. Yikes.
Anyway.
Reverse Polish notation was invented by an Australian in response to Polish notation, which was invented (gasp!) by a Pole.
The whole story here is
adjectives prepositions and rules RPN follow not should why?
What is really scary is that I read that sentence without noticing anything wrong with it. I guess that's what happens to RPN users...
There are a bunch of others. My favorite is PARI-GP.
(S(SKK)(SKK))(S(SKK)(SKK))
That's why you should use variables on the HP48 for that kind of thing...
In school in electrical engineering, I had a huge set of formulas and constants stored in a directory on my HP48GX, all I had to do was to change a constant, then push the right formular onto the stack, press ->NUM once, and had my numeric result (even complex numbers) there, which would have taken at least two sheets of paper by hand.
My wife (then live-in, who is *not* a mathy) adapted easily to RPN for everyday math (checkbook, etc).
When I explained to her, "Hey, its the only kind of calculator I have", she sat with me for 5 minutes and picked it right up. It is not hard *if* people will just open their brain for a moment.
Didn't our moms teach us to try new things?
-> proud 15C, 12C, and 32SII owner
-- Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.
I've been using HP calculators ever since buying an HP-35 in 1973. I wandered off the path a couple of times but not for long, because RPN just makes total sense.
The tremendous success of the HP-12C in business is proof enough. And ask any HP-41 user how he likes his machine. The thing is a tool that helps you get a job done in as few steps as possible.
I use a 48GX or 49g+ every day. I much prefer the 48GX keyboard and the location of the Enter key (although I'm slowly getting used to that), but everything else about the 49g+ is better: much faster, much better and slightly larger display, and lots more 'stuff'.
Unlike some people I don't mind the 48/49 implementation of RPN (actually RPL) compared with the old style 4-level stack, but a lot of old timers refuse to use the RPL machines that started with the 28. At the same time I still like the 41/42 a lot. There's surely a place for machines like the 32S II. It remains to be seen how the 33S with its odd looking keyboard does in the marketplace.
I'm one of a very few who have an HP PDA based on Linux that never made it to production. Display contrast isn't very good, but otherwise it's decent but not feature laden because the project got killed and people lost their jobs. For this reason it's heartening that someone's talking about doing an HP handheld running Linux, and I'll support their efforts any way I can. It's about time for the user community to pitch in - this reminds me of the PPC 44 project talked about what, 20 years ago?
And YET the "masses" use RPN all the time and don't realize it.
When the masses do a math problem.In other words we're presented with the numbers FIRST, then told what to do with them (ADD).
When the masses do math in their head, it's the same way. Intermmediates (mental scratch memory) is for carries.
We think RPN is dead because most people don't actually conciously THINK about what they do when they do math. This becomes even more obvious when doing a more complicated problem. Try doing the quadratic formula for example.
Bet we do that RPN with the precedence rules already memorized (remember your teacher going through those?).
So NO it's not a geek thing. It's just that geeks are more obvious about certain aspects that the masses may not be conciously aware of.
---
"Sorry, but according to [the] tests [we turn on and off], you are trying to post from an open HTTP proxy."
My junior year of high school, I was rushing off to take the ACTs (like the SATs) and either I couldn't find my calculator, or it wasn't allowed. I ransacked the house, and came up with two calculators: a little four-function calculator my mom used for balancing the checkbook, and my dad's HP (I think it was an 11c). Of course I took the HP, and I was well into the test before I realized that it was "broken." Luckily the math was easy enough that I didn't really need it, but I was sweating when I first tried to use it (45 * 32 Enter)
Cache Rules Everything Around Me
Hewlett-Packard used to put a huge amount of effort into making sure that there were no obvious bugs. And when a nasty bug did slip through, they usually would provide ROM upgrades on request. But Hewlett-Packard no longer exists; it's been replaced by the new HP, which has abandoned the "HP Way" for what is apparently the Compaq Way. There's no word of any ROM upgrade for the HP 12C Platinum.
The existence of serious bugs in something as simple as the GTO instruction makes me rather skeptical of the accuracy of the financial calculations. Some of the financial calculations such as solving for interest rates are actually quite challenging to do accurately, and Hewlett-Packard spent a lot of time on numerical analysis to make sure that they did a good job of it. I rather doubt that the new HP has done nearly as much homework on the mathematical algorithms the HP 12C Platinum.
The original HP-12C also has a better keyboard. Hewlett-Packard invested more effort into making the calculators ergonomic. When you buy a $100 calculator, you should be able to get reliable keys with good tactile feedback and double-shot injection molding so that the legends don't wear off. But HP doesn't care about this. What they've forgotten is that by cutting corners and making the products as cheap as possible (but not any more inexpensive), they are not only failing to cultivate new customer loyalty, but are losing the loyalty of their existing customer base.
I have yet to meet someone that actually needs a faster 12C, or one with more memory. But I don't doubt that there are a few people somewhere that do. For everyone else, I strongly recommend the HP-12C over the HP 12C Platinum.
The HP 15C may well be the ideal pocket calculator for today, when more complex calculations are done on a desktop computer. Bring Back The HP 15C