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Sun will Open Java's Source
bckrispi writes "An announcement from Sun spokesman Raghavan Srinivas indicates that, contrary to what we've heard in the past, Java will be Open-sourced. "We haven't worked out how to open-source Java, but at some point it will happen," Srinivas said."
I doubt Sun will ever open source Java. If it happens at all it will be after Sun goes chapter 11 and is bought out by IBM.
This is an excellent boon for open source software. Even if we only get small portions of it, having open-source Java can only benefit the community.
Thanks, Sun!
"We haven't worked out how to open-source Java, but at some point it will happen," Srinivas said."
When I heard this earlier today I thought the same thing, this is a non-announcement.
The Java community is split over whether open-sourcing Java is beneficial.
.com name,
200+$ /month for the hosting plan, and about scores of thousands $ for a 2 pages legal agreement. It shouldn't be that hard....
I will probably be marked troll on this one, but I have to ask:
How in the world can you be split over something like that?
I mean, people will basiclly poke at the code and report you bugs.
Other developers will request tons of features that they will point how easy are to be done.
Everyone will be happy.
It's not as if they are charging people for using the pure java language right now.
However, others, including Sun, believe the main hurdle and concern is the future of the Java brand and compatibility.
So, they are planning to be constantly changing the language then? What are they smoking?
We haven't worked out how to open-source Java -- but at some point it will happen," Srinivas said. However, he noted "it might be today, tomorrow or two years down the road".
Well, you start with a 19$
Not to be a cynic, but "at some point" they will "somehow" figure out how to open source Java?
And at some point I'll somehow figure out how to make a million dollars while sitting at home playing my Playstation, too.
I fail to see how this qualifies as news.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
I really hope they do open source java. it would let OSS improve the VM. it would make it evolve faster and allow more people to improve it.
Java is nice and all, but I still prefer that my programming languages be managed by a standards organization.
I guess I can understand the fear of losing the "write once, run anywhere" mentality, but if that's one of the main attractions to the language doesn't it stand to reason that people won't really veer to far off?
"And The Geek Shall Inherit The Earth" --Jeff Darlington
Instead of waiting two years, do it now when it counts most. If Sun feels some degree of uncertainty, then test the waters by open sourcing selective parts of the JDK - especially the parts of the Java libraries that are widely perceived to be neglected.
Why is it any mention of DNF gets you an automatic mod up to Funny? Isn't that joke getting a little stale yet?
Here you go mods, feel free to mod me up, up, and away for this little gut buster:
In Soviet Russia, Duke Nukem Forever is already released!
It's not nearly as big a deal as open-sourcing, say, Solaris, simply because it's not going to wreck a primary revenue stream for Java.
I've wondered for a while where Sun makes money from Java, particularly enough to recoup what they spend on it. I can't imagine it affects sales of Solaris boxes that much.
Call me paranoid or even a conspiracy theorist, but what if Microsofy is behind this? What if Microsoft, as part of their settlement with Sun, asked them to open-source Java so that they could embrace and extend it, and pollute it as they tried to before?
How much do you want to bet that Java will be open sourced under a BSD-style license, and not the GPL.
This space left intentionally blank.
I think Java is fine the way it is. Open Sourcing it will not bring any improvements and actually might hurt Java.
Not quite an accurate analogy... Java's a platform, so if they release the platform code, there's the potential that a grassroots inititive might cut the fat, and release Java Lite (Decaf). If not, just look for additional branches in the java hardware support tree. Linux is strong because it's fundamentally higher in the operating system food chain, running off a highly optimized kernel, on platform specific assemblers. Up until recently there haven't been many processors that have supported a native Java runtime, so everything's been run in a JVM. If anything, it's about performance and community involvement.
Very Funny!
People often don't realize how expensive/lucrative Enterprise Support is compared to the cost of H/W and S/w. Companies charge as much as 29-35% of the product cost as support per year and support is never discounted. i.e companies give away s/w and h/w worth a million and charge say 290k per year in support.
Support/services is often the number 1 consideration in purchasing.
So, I would not be surprised if sun's net revnues do not decrese after they opensource all of their s/w, including OS.
Besides, why does Sun want to fix a bug for which there is no revenue tied? Sun might rather fix an obscure bug from a paid customer than fix the most popular bug. By opensourcing Java/ or OS, they will be opening a new maintenance channel for their platform while still making the same service revenues.
In our company, Sun support team is respected and our IS claims it is worth all the cost.
I think that people who worry themselves over the ominous and supposedly inevitable "fragmentation" really need to take a second look at things.
1-There are numerous examples of open source programming languages that have remained centralized and unfragmented, like Perl and Python.
2-Because java depends on a uniform standard and VM, any attempts to split off or fork the source tree will die miserably due to a lack of compatibility with the massive pool of existing code and classes.
3-In fact, there is actually LESS chance of fragmentation when Java lies in the hands of the public, first because it means that no one will start up a competing "openjava", a venture that would almost certainly lead to incompatibilities, and second because, as the example of the death of xfree86 shows, too much central and absolute control over software by a small group will inevitably anger developers and users alike, leading them to search for an alternative.
Honestly, this is slashdot. You people should have more faith in OSS.
It will certainly increase its adoption, especially in the open source world, thus fulfilling its original purpose: write once, run anywhere.
-jim
- Determine conditions that Sun is sure of it finds acceptable right now for released files
- Throw release files & those conditions on some big-iron ftp/http server under Sun's control
- Make public announcement (& hopefully survive being
/dotted ;o)
- Inlude in conditions the option to submit patches to Sun
- Include in conditions the option to publish patches to everyone else
- Give selected regular patch-submitters limited write-access under strict additional conditions
- Relax those conditions as time goes by, and you see the source base evolving nicely
- Move source depository elsewhere, to make that big-iron ftp/http free for newer, more interesting projects
Just my suggestion for how Sun could do itThe reason they don't know how long it'll take is likely due to licensing agreements, patent royalties, and other little issues encumbering the code, on top of the normal burocracy.
Inevitibly, in large organizations with large projects, some manager attempts to (and often succeeds in) shortcutting the development time by licensing or purchasing some outside code or technology. I would be surprised if Sun's implementation of Java was completely developed in house and/or completely owned without exception by Sun. They have to vet all the code and modules to be certian that they have the right to release Java. I doubt they'll release the unencumbered parts before it's all ready.
Further, there are likely to be patent and legal encumberances to the code which may prevent immediate release. It could even be that people along the line have said, "I'll patent this technique later, for right now it's a trade secret." There may yet be code in there which they can capitalize off of by patenting, while allowing for usage within java without charge.
And, of course, they have to make sure the company lawyers and accountants are satisfied with whatever terms they release it under. They may even wait until the SCO thing blows over if they really want to use the GPL (Unlikely).
So don't hold your breath. The ideal outcome would make one able to compile it for platforms which it does not yet run on natively and stable.
-Adam
Of course the opening of Java's source will be neat for "the community," but it doesn't seem like a very smart business move for Sun. There might be some temporary benefits in publicity, but no real benefits in the long run. Atleast if they keep it closed, they'll retain some control, and have the ability to possibly make money off of it.
...Which seems impossible to me.
However, i'm sure they know this, and that's why it's not being released now, and it probably never will be, unless they somehow conjure up a way to release the source and retain complete control of it.
I would be happy if they just opensourced the virtual machine so distros can include it instead of me having to jump thru hoops getting it installed and working. Aslo this might allow different distro's to tweak the VM so it can run smoother and faster on thier version of linux while still supporting the develope once run anywere model. I'm not sure what else is in sun's java offering, I asume there would be an aplication server, a developers ide and maybe some other stuff.
Sun is giving the VM away as it is, It would be nice to have it gpl compatable so it can be used right after an install.
It makes perfect sense if Sun is doing this for the same reason Apple open sources the internals of Mac OS X.
Allowing their users access to the source to Solaris-- even if the license is "poisoned" to prevent it from being mixed with GPLed code-- would help Sun's users. They would be able to adapt the OS to strange fine-tuned uses and arcane hardware, or more easily debug kernel plugins. A shop that might otherwise have gone "well, we like solaris, but we don't want to be limited to sparc and x86, so we'll go with linux" might be dissuaded.
Allowing their users access to the source to the JVM-- even under a GPL-incompatible license-- would do the same. It would allow Sun's users to port the JVM to those few platforms Sun doesn't support yet, or more easily debug JNI software.
This is definitely a benefit for Sun's users. It makes both Java and Solaris more attractive. It makes a lot of sense.
If they really did, I would take it as more of a "We Give-Up" move just before everything falls apart.
Sun refuses to open source Java: Slashdotters interpret this as a sign they are dying.
Sun agrees to open source Java: Slashdotters interpret this as a sign they are dying.
Hmm.
When Jonathan Schwartz spoke at the Utah Java Users' Group he said Java drives a LOT of server sales for Sun. He specifically mentioned embedded java, e.g. in cell phones, as opening new revenue areas for servers. Java licening fees themselves are a drop in the bucket relatively.
It will be interesting to see what kind of license Sun goes with given their oft-given fear of forking Java. Seems to me that something like the Qt license would be the way to go.
But at least he did his karma-whoring as AC, unlike the OP.
Do any of you ever ask yourselves why now?
Do you trust Sun ? They are excellent at manipulating the media.
Sun is doing this for themselves so they can 'hype' more java news on all the internet news sources(zdnet,cnet,slash) and also pull more people into their language(prosyletize) so that they can cash in.
Microsoft and Sun both proselytize.
If you develop in java, you don't have to pay sun any money. Sun uses what they call a "protected source" license, which basically says, "Anyone can use this, but only we can make changes, or release new distributions."
Open sourcing java wouldn't really hurt them, and god knows java could use it.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
I keep wondering if they mean the java class libraries or the Java virtual machine (which runs those java applications)?
Opensourcing can only help java. It will definetly spread its adoption to be standard on many linuxes.
What's important is being free to actually *use* the source code. With Sun's current license, you can't do anything more than look at it. You can't use some of the code in some other project. You can't fix bugs or add optimizations and then distribute your version. With an open source version, Sun also wouldn't be able to change the conditions whenever they wanted to.
Let's face it: It was bound to happen. After all, if Sun didn't open up Java, someone -- probably IBM -- would have eventually ripped it out of their hands. To quote Eric Raymond, "you can have ubiquity or control, but not both." (Ok, so that's more like a paraphrase than an exact quote, but y'all get the gyst. And speaking of ESR, there's a cool interview here in which he talks about -- and predicts -- Sun's open sourcing of Java.)
In short, it was either do it now or do it later for Sun. And it's better they do it now, when they can still look good, than later, when they'd end up just leaving a seriously bad taste in the mouth of thousands of developers. They're strapped for cash and just signed their soul over to the Borg. Might as well do SOMETHING worthwhile and good, rather than just be a giant flaming ball of gas for news.
Mono beta 2 now includes a Java VM. "allows Java and .NET code to run side-by-side. It contains the latest release of IKVM.
.NET, turn to them and say, you can still use Java.
Sun's Java Class Libraries are very nice and full featured, if Java was open-sourced, I'd see Mono and Java merging together quite nicely. Write in whichever language is most comfortable, and call whichever API does the job the best.
I see this as a good solution for Sun which is seeing developers leaving for
Assuming that would allow any developers to participate in Java's development, I imagine that the first enhancements would be templates, similar to C++. And before someone says that Java 1.5 already has generics, let me tell you that Java generics are nothing but a simple mechanism to automatically wrap primitive types within Object-derived instances.
There are various implementations of Java with truly good enhancements, like real templates, design-by-contract and other good stuff. It's a pity that Java does not get these "new" capabilities (that other languages have for ages).
esr says:
``Anyone who believes a vendor is going to give away hardware under a contract that allows the customer to immediately strip off the software and repurpose it probably still hasn't faced the truth about the Tooth Fairy.''
You mean that he does exist and wrote Linux, together with Santa Claus?
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
I guess it's a step forward, yeah, yeah, someone will say - it's not happened *YET*. BUT it could change certainly several things: 1) every distribution now could distribute JRE without any licensing issues - I guess it's first and main point about Java widespread on Linux boxes 2) Allow changes for others/forks - I guess second is rather risky, but I guess no one will fork Java unless it will be very necessary and pressing. I guess it could be done the same way it worked for Openoffice.org project - one project site, everyone can contribute, submit changes, Sun engineers do the rest. Yes, I guess most of you should understand that isn't that easy to open source Java - Sun clearly see beneficts, but legal team should figure everything out, everything must be sorted out, even code - I asume. So let's just wait for that. And yes, it is about god damned time - for people who don't want to use Mono because of fear from Microsoft.
user@ubuntubox:~$ stfu This server is going down for shutdown NOW!
``That said, I hope java doesn't end up fragmented.''
You mean, more fragmented than it already is with Sun, Microsoft, Apple, Kaffe, gcj, Latte, Jikes, and so on and so forth all providing their own implementations?
``One of the really nice things about java is that despite a few problems, it's very portable.''
Oh yes. About as portable as C, Python, Fortran, ADA, Pascal, Common LISP, Scheme, PHP, Ocaml and a plethora of other languages.
``I've never personally had a problem moving my code from one machine to another.''
You lucky bastard. You must never have moved your code developed with a modern Sun JDK to a machine using Microsoft's VM. Or an old (1.0.x or 1.1.x) Sun JVM, for that matter. Or tried running AWT code on pretty much any of the open source JVMs, which are kind of your only choice if your machine is not x86, PowerPC or SPARC, or the operating system is anyting besides GNU/Linux, Solaris, Mac OS, OS X, or Windows.
Java is a dream that never came true:
1. Write once, run everywhere is a myth, because you need a good VM and class libraries, which are only available for a few platforms.
2. The official distribution is bloated to the top and runs slow even with JIT compilation. Java programs use lots of memory. This makes Java unnatractive even if you can guaratee it will work on your target system.
3. GUIs in Java are a nightmare. AWT can be a bitch to code for, lacking many useful components. Swing uses "pure Java" widgets, which are slow and don't fit well with the native widgets on your system. SWT ought to be better, but is not included in the distribution, so if you want it, you need more bloat.
4. High performance apps are out. GUI apps are a nightmare. What's left? Simple command line utilities? Nah, much better written in a different language. Whomever heard of multi-second startup time for hello world, and BufferedReader in = new BufferedReader(new InputStreamReader(System.in)); before you can do something useful with standard input?
Oh yeah, it runs on cellphones. At least, the very much scaled down J2ME does. But don't expect good performance, and don't expect software written for some cellphone to run on yours. It's the same story again.
Java has failed.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
> I disagree that "most" closed standards fall out of use. Many survive.
:) JAVA is the only language with a corporation full of lawyers threatening to sue anyone who releases an implementation they don't like.
Outside the IT world you have a point. But name ONE major IT standard that is still relevant that is a) closed and b) not a microsoft 'standard'. I exclude MS because they are a convicted monopolist and have certain unfair influences on the marketplace that has permitted them to maintain closed standards for a little longer than everyone else.
Networking standards are the obvious example where closed has been the kiss of death. Closed information services were crushed by the Internet, all non-IP network protocols are now in legact maintaince mode. How many email systems are left other than SMTP/POP/IMAP? Instant messaging is the one holdout because Jabber couldn't get their act together to the point where every ISP became expected to host a Jabber locator server just like they host a mail/dns/news/etc server.
File protocols are rapidly converting to open, with the notable exception of MIcrosoft and their Office formats. A host of closed graphics formats fell to GIF, JPEG and PNG. The myriad audio and video formats have all but collapsed to WAV/MP3/MPEG/AVI/WMV/OGG. Even the MS standards are fairly open (for MS tech) with the exception of rights restricted flavors of WMV. MP3 and MPEG are artifacts of a day when RAND licensing was considered open.
JAVA must open or face a decline. It is the only current language with any real restrictions on implementations. Anyone is free to write a C compiler, and many do in school. Anyone if free to rewrite Perl, but would be daft to try.
Even worse, with the current situation Linux distributors can't include a JVM (Sun's or IBM's) in their collection, even those who are willing to bundle closed apps, so no JAVA app can ever be a core app in the Linux or BSD worlds, and considering the state of affairs in Windows land it isn't likely to happen there either. That Sun can't see that widespread, unfettered distribution of the runtime is a plus for all Java advocates doesn't bode well for a real Open Source release of the JDK.
But anyway, JAVA the language probably has a future but JAVA the emulator/VM really doesn't. Sun can slow the evolution down through skilled lawyering but native compilation similar to what GCC is now doing is the future, one where JAVA is just another language and source gets compiled to native code and depends on the normal system libraries.
The only reason for the emulator was to allow closed source apps to be semi portable, but as closed source becomes less of an issue there will be less and less reason to pay the emulation penalty of the JVM. In the Open Source world portability is achieved with GNU autoconf, not by compiling all code to run on a mythical platform which is then emulated on whatever host it happens to be running on today.
Democrat delenda est
> I think they're worried about someone forking it.
/usr/lib with the rest. When programmers decide whether to use the bundled crossplatform graphic toolkit or use java bindings to Win32/Qt/Gtk/wxWindows/SDL/etc. When Python programmers are deciding whether to use Tk or Swing. Or in a bumper sticker size phrase, when Java is just another OO language instead of a religion.
Oh bull. How many incompatible forks of C++ are there? Not all compilers implement all of the latest ANSI standard but are all working toward compliance as fast as they can lest they lose relevence in the marketplace. Ok, how about Perl? It has been GPL from the start of it's life and there has been exactly ZERO forks. Python? Nope, no evil forks there. How about the granddaddy of them all, C? Yes, but the ANSI standard keeps pulling them all back into line, so it hasn't been a problem. Every time C shows its age the compiler writers start innovating and the good ideas get standaridized.
Sun is still trying to think of a way to make JAVA a cash cow and is afraid that if they Open Source it that when they have the "Ah Ha!" moment that it won'y work because they opened it.
And anyway, the idea of compile once, emulate everywhere is not exactly a great one if you live in the OS/FS world. Won't bother me a bit when Java becomes just another language that GCC compiles to native code and it's bundled libraries are sitting in
Democrat delenda est
2. Release product under a new restrictive open source license
3. People complain about license
4. Rerelease it under the GPL
5. Programers spend a year making the code worthwhile
6. People complains about how poor the opensource developement model works
7. Really cool product emerges too late to make a big impact in the market at large.
I don't mean to sound ungrateful.. but perhaps it would be smarter for companies to use open source earlier on, not as a last ditch effort. Java has been pigeoned holed as a very large plug-in for web browsers, which Flash has done a lot better with. If they are going to see Java as a big application platform, open source is necessary and not as optional.
That option is not needed. Java is a PLATFORM INDEPENDANT language in which the core funtionality should NOT be tied to a particular platform.
This is EXACTLY what MS did with Visual J++ and their own JRE. This is exactly what Sun fears about open sourcing Java.
If you want a KDE specific version of JAVA, create the appropriate Plug-in/Replacement classes for the AWT/Swing. The current JAVA jre spec DOES indead allow that. Or if you are particularly brave, create new packages such as org.kde.*. The advantage of this approach is that it would run with ANY implementation of JAVA, not just the Sun, or Custom KDE JRE.
A good example of this is WABA, a Java Like language/platform for Palm OS and Pocket PC. It uses its own set of packages (waba.*). However, the best part is, because its built on JAVA specifications, software can be developed and compiled on ANY JDK (I have tried Sun Forté, and Visual Café). This is just by adding the appropriate waba package for Java. This clearly demonstrates the pure power of Java.
Although Open sourcing Java is good, I do understand their fears of forks. And it has happend befor e(MS VJ++)
Have a nice day!
Why do I sense so much hatred and ungrattitude against SUN? It has been one of the pillars of UNIX, has given away many technologies that today define UNIX/Linux. Without SUN UNIX would have been irrelevant long ago, and with it Linux would have been just as irrelevant.
Why don't people see the strategic importance of the UNIX world (which includes Linux) holding together and fight against the real enemy?
I do have my concenrs regarding Suns recent "peace" with the enemy, maybe we can no longer rely on SUN, but at least one must acknowledge what SUN has done for the UNIX community.
The lack of historical perspective and irrationalism of many of the SUN haters is shocking to me. It almost makes me think that the enemy has sent inflitrators on slashdot with the purpose to spread division and internal struggle inside the UNIX world.
In this article in which they promise opening up Solaris, They say:
The uninformed on-lookers will only see the statement "Sun warms to open-source for Solaris" which gives them more points.
Next concerning Java, a few months ago they said,
Now they are saying:
Again, the uninformed on-lookers will only see the statement "Sun to open-source Java" which gives them more points.
Summary: They promised to make Solaris become like Java, meanwhile they don't know if at all Java will be open-sourced in this lifetime.
This is what is called hybrid-source: A vapor version of open-source meant only to gain favor with the open-source community and the business world without any active steps or concrete plans to put it in effect.
"Fighting terrorists with millitary might is like killing a mosquitor on your Dad's forehead with a rifle."
Furthermore, the GPL may be a serious problem for Sun. Not all Java code is necessarily copyrighted by them.
You are aware that Java is not written in Java? One issue is open sourcing the Runtime Enviornment source code which is java code, the other issue is opening the Virtual Machine which is not. Everyone has been griping about the VM code.
> In the Open Source world portability is achieved with GNU autoconf, not by compiling all code to run on a mythical platform which is then emulated on whatever host it happens to be running on today.
... I've spent days over such porting).
...
Um, which platform do you use - it wouldn't be Linux x86 which pretty much all gnu software has already been ported to would it? Autoconf is good at getting things mostly right, but there are still various tweaks to get something running on a platform it hasn't been built for before (I know
All the Java I've written seems to run fine without modification under MacOSX, Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris
If autoconf is the route to native portability, I think I'll stick with the current JVM model and get some work done, thanks you.
If I didn't know better, it would seem that Sun is flailing pretty badly at this point.
-- null
Sun has no real value except for the ongoing license revenue from solaris hardware and software.
That's a very big 'except for'. Also, Sun now make a considerable amount of money from selling software services. Oh, and by the way, its 'Sparc' hardware. Solaris is an 'Operating System'.
Linux did its job and forced them into only high end servers
Funny, I thought Open Source was about the pleasure of writing quality code, comradeship between developers, and providing choice. I did not realise it was designed specifically to annoy Sun.
where there is
- much less demand
There is?
- much stronger competition
But I thought you said that Linux was competition at the low end. How could Sun have been supposedly forced into 'only high end servers' without competition?
- commodity high end hardware
So?
- 'portable' dbms systems - Oracle 9 data is the same on aix, solaris, hp, etc
And has always been. Sun have always supported portability. That's why they went for UNIX decades ago and not a proprietary closed system like IBM and HP used to have. Sun got there first. When they started with UNIX, they published open standards for everyone to use, such as NFS. They allowed other manufacturers to use their Sparc designs. Sun realised that competition and portability are good: it means that competitors software can run on your systems.
Sun's situation with Java is really reminiscent of AT&T's situation with Unix and C.
One could make a good argument that the excellent portability of C is because of AT&T retaining tight control of it for so many years. Many people learned the language and there were many applications written for it, so by the time more compilers were written for it, and later, when it was standardized, no one wanted to break anything.
In other words, the existing mass of programs keeps C stable and reasonable. If language changes different enough (or innovative enough) come along, they are put into a new language derived from C, and given a new name (like "C++" or "Java").
Is Java at that point now? Is there a big enough mass of Java code out there to keep the language stable without Sun's help?
I code Java for a living and couldn't agree more. I've only been doing software development for about eight years now, and I'm really beginning to feel that I made a mistake by concentrating too much on Java, for exactly the reasons this guy lists.
While we're getting the credentials out of the way, I started coding in 1979. I've written commercial code in a lot of languages, from C to LISP to Python (just to name a few that cover a good chunk of the spectrum of language types).
The problem with Java on the client is that you depend on the end-user to have things set up 'correctly' on their end. In our case, these are lawyers and accountants and other assorted people who could care less about computers. So if you discover that Java 1.3.1_06 and below has a fatal bug in the networking code, you have to write a workaround for that, since it is untenable to ask your customers to install a new JVM
I'm presently employed on a cross-platform Java application. We have synchronized deployments to 3500 client machines that have to occur over a single weekend, and travel via our WAN to roughly 40 states plus Europe and Asia. The clients know not and care not how the application works. We ship a new JRE with roughly 20% of our deployments. Our application is currently deployed to Linux (client and server), Windows (client side only), and Solaris (server side only).
How is this practical? Our application is over a million lines - the JRE isn't the largest part of the deployment. In enterprise deployments to a heterogenous environment, the key factor is not the size of the JRE, it is the things that really affect the bottom line - maintainability, platform neutrality, performance (yes, performance - Swing is within 10% of C when written properly), etc. I'm not saying Java is head and shoulders above all competitors in these areas, but it is certainly a decent match against the best of them. Every language has it's ideal areas - for my money (and having solved the problem with a number of technology sets), enterprise scale GUI client/server apps is one area where Java is well suited, as are some other languages.
It's a toolkit. If you're having troubles with Java, try some other languages - you may find that others are more suited to your development style or your deployment environment. Java is not a bad language because the JRE is over 10 megs any more than an airplane is a bad form of transportation because it requires an airstrip. The right tool for the job is the key.
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