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Networking in the Danger Zone?
Croaker-bg asks: "I currently am an Information Security/ Network Engineer for a large government contract firm and have recently seen several solicitations come across email regarding gigs in the Middle East and surrounding regions, including both Iraq and Afghanistan. Understanding that the pay might be good for being willing to face the hazards, I continue to have my curiosity perked by these short-term jaunts. Lately however, the news of fellow contractors being abducted has put a new spin on the hazards of working abroad in these areas. Has anyone survived such a trip and lived to tell the tale with a fat wallet? If so, would you consider doing it again or is it just to dangerous?"
you cant spend money when your dead.
I wouldn't go. When you are in the military at least you have a gun and can shoot back. As a contractor, your kind of on your own.
You have to ask yourself the (deliberatley skewed left by me) question "Is the lure of money so great on me that I would leave my country to work somewhere where they are kidnapping people exactly like me?
This isn't an opportunity. You aren't "helping shape a newborn government" or whatever. Even if you're Christian, Iraq is the oldest place on earth. If you need the money, do it. Otherwise, don't.
--
The last digit of pi is four.
Your life is worth infintely more than any amount of money. People who do this must be crazy. Do you really want to be beheaded because you want a new Mercedes?
That's all I have to say.
yeah sure, saudi arabia was pretty stable too...
This Sig is removed due to factual inaccuracy
You can die anywhere you are at any time for any number of reasons. Like that Northen Exposure episode where the satellite falls on the guy... What's your likelihood of being abducted by terrorists in Saudi Arabia? Not very high. Even if you are there. Certainly not relative to any other of a number of ways you could die.
You can lock yourself up in your house if you want to. It just depends on how you want to live.
If you are really concerned about your life being out of control and in the hands of terrorists, just get fitted with one of those poison teeth. Then at least you can save yourself from suffering while you die.
Myself, I don't spend any time worrying about it.
Death by terrorists is, literally, nothing, after a few possible days of torture and a few years of good job, followed by practically worldwide sympathy. Jail is a few years of you rotting, preceded by a few years of an illegal job below your knowledge, followed by a criminal record.
I would prefer the void of death to the destroyed life of jail. Frankly, I wonder why this guy facing the death penalty is fighting to the Supreme Court for life in prison; isn't death preferable?
I had the chance to work in Johannesburg. At the time it was "the most dangerous city in the world outside of a war zone." I was there for 4 months, and it was one of the best experiences of my life. While there, my co-worker was on a contract on New York. This was around 9-11... He saw the towers fall in person. You can die anyplace. Be careful, take precautions, be aware, and you have a better chance. Do the math... How many people have been killed in New York in the last 6 months? The risks may be higher in the mid-east, but how much higher? Especially with you watching everything around you?
I thought the whole point of having an Army Corps Of Engineers was so that when technical skills were needed in a war zone, the Army would be able to provide them.
Greed is a dangerous thing. And now, you can die for it. Make a risky business move, do something that hasn't been done before and see where that takes you. Don't risk risk your life.
Actually, do if you want. I wouldn't.
what is nailchipper?
Please consider the moral issues that derive from making money off a war and its reconstruction. Do you want to be part of the military-industrial complex, to join the likes of Haliburton or Kellog, Brown & Root? Do you want to be a war profiteer?
It's your life. If you feel comfortable about being in a situation where your chances of losing your life increase dramatically, and if you think that you're being adequately compensated for the risks that you're taking, then go ahead and take the assignment.
But if possibly becoming a target, or even being the unfortunate victim of a friendly fire incident, makes your stomach churn then don't do it.
These are warzones that you're talking about. Don't step into one because someone else says that they'd do it, step into one because you know that you're comfortable doing it. You only have one life, so don't lead it according to how someone else would lead their's.
Bottom line: is the job worth potentially dying for? Only you can answer that for yourself.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Huh? And what precisely do the al-Quaeda fanatics have to do with Iraq?
Unless all of our western intelligence agencies have failed miserably, al-Quaeda people only began moving in Iraq as a direct result of Gulf War 2...
Yes, the Middle East is a dangerous place right now. (Particularly for Westerners.) However, people do have a tendency of exaggerating the danger because of the context.
For example: just a few years ago, seven people were gunned down at a computer engineering firm in Massachusetts. But if I were offered a job in Massachusetts, I doubt that questions of personal safety would even enter my mind.
Of course I'm not saying the Middle East is safer than Massachusetts (though if it keeps you from eating at McDonald's too often, it may well be)! But don't let high profile shock stories bias your judgement too much.
I fully agree that violent fanatics need to be stopped, be they Muslim suicide bombers or Christian crusaders in the guise of American patriots.
In case you have all forgotten, those contractors that were taken out of their convoy, dragged, beaten, and then burned while being hung from a bridge WERE ARMED. Some were civilian body guards, HEAVILY ARMED. One more point to ponder - our US military, namely US Marines, are over there being killed daily. Granted you probably wont be on the front lines. You will probably be back in a somewhat safer area. But from what I have seen and my own experience I would rather be up front with the guns and somebody who I KNOW has my six covered. Where I can call in the big guns if I have to. I cant believe they let americans wander around at all over there without being heavily protected.
I just regret that younger soldiers are over there now because we were not allowed to finish it when I was there.
Just my two cents
(from an infantry marine, gulf war, take 1)
Whether or not he was truly a civilian, of course, remains to be seen. But given that he voluntarily surrendered in order to ``clear things up''? I give him the benefit of the doubt. At least enough to refrain from beating him to death.
I thought the whole point of having an Army Corps Of Engineers was so that when technical skills were needed in a war zone, the Army would be able to provide them.
The problem with that arrangement is that if there are profits to be made from the teat of the US taxpayer (or local oil money), the Corps of Engineers cannot provide them.
>The al-Quaeda fanatics need to be stopped. They don't care about anyone but themselves. Everything they are doing is only hurting the Iraqi people.
Wow, that could totally be rewritten as:
The American fanatics need to be stopped. They don't care about anyone but themselves. Everything they are doing is only hurting the Iraqi people.
i would not risk my life for money...
;-/ And do not even think of any kind of construction jobs or anything related to heavy equipment!
;-)
You know, when you drive to your office and back you are risking your life for money... Same if you walk...
I guess that what you wanted to say was that you would not accept an average pot of money for an above-average risk to your life. But that is reasonable, this is why averages and medians often coincide in social sciences!
Paul B.
...but if you get abducted and beheaded, don't expect me to shed a tear. I have little sympathy for the carpet-baggers currently over around Iraq's moribund corpse.
Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
Right. Couple of Americans walked into a prison complex one day, and decided to abuse some prisoners. After which time, the MPs found them, and threw the interlopers out...
Perhaps you're forgetting that these interlopers were members of the Army, an outfit which pretends to care about discipline and chain of command and responsibility. Perhaps you're forgetting that some brilliant lawyers in the White House dreamt up legal strategies in defense of torture.
It's quite difficult to argue that the efforts of the White House and the Department of Defense are somehow not representative of American policy.
"Where's outsourcing when you need it???"
KBR (Kellog Brown & Root to you people who don't know) has a big location here in Houston. I heard from a friend that works their that they are the exclusive (or short list of exclusive) company that recruits people to go over to Iraq, Afgahnistan, or elsewhere and processes them here in Houston. I've been told that there is pay schedule as to what the normal salary is here in the US, plus 20% added on, plus another %20 added on for hazzard duty, all tax free. But, these numbers could be wrong. It just might be worth it, but my wife says NO WAY for me, otherwise I would go.
TAX FREE?? Where do I sign up!
"What's your likelihood of being abducted by terrorists in Saudi Arabia? Not very high. Even if you are there."
/. would something like that be mod'ed "Insightful".
Well, it's kind of hard to be kidnapped by terrorists in Saudi Arabia if you're NOT there.
But if you do go there AND you look like an American, then the chances go right up.
"Certainly not relative to any other of a number of ways you could die."
Stepped on by an elephant while having sex in Tacoma. Hmmm, statistically, that has NEVER HAPPENED.
Do you know what "relative" means?
"You can lock yourself up in your house if you want to. It just depends on how you want to live."
False dichotomy there.
Either
Lock yourself in your house
or
Go someplace where lots of people who don't like you want to kill you and can recognize you easily.
Yeah. Whatever.
"If you are really concerned about your life being out of control and in the hands of terrorists, just get fitted with one of those poison teeth. Then at least you can save yourself from suffering while you die."
So, the terrorists can kill me or I can kill myself before the terrorists kill me.
Only on
How about he get a job at a small insurance company and die from a heart attack 60 years from now brought on by too many donuts for breakfast for 60 years?
I am not a computer professional; I do international development work and so I travel a fair bit. I was in Afghanistan and Pakistan last summer and Iraq last November and December.
I found Afghanistan pretty likeable, but it would be a hard place to live for an extended period. Outside of Kabul it gets very primitive very quickly. Additionally, the security situation outside of Kabul is very much worse than it is inside.
I found Iraqis (and most people, really) to be pretty nice, hospitable people, but the situation there is just all kinds of bad. The security situation is part of it, and this keeps you indoors and in very close quarters a lot of the time, and this gets old quick. And regardless of how you feel about the current administration or the war, being an American in Iraq is a mighty uncomfortable thing to be in 2004.
I presume the people paying big money for these services are military or military contractors. In both Afghanistan and Iraq, these guys live in shipping containers, often in the middle of nowhere. In the Green Zone, shipping containers are stacked everywhere and people are shoved into any space that will fit them. Many people --civilian contractors -- share their bunks in shifts.
If you are really considering this just for the money, I would think very carefully about what you are doing. How much is money really worth? Because especially in Iraq, you will be exposing yourself to physical danger and psychic stress that is considerable.
And if you are going for a travel experience, I can support that, but I would suggest that in a military environment you are unlikely to get much of a cultural experience. There are other, better ways to do this.
If you really believe in what you would be doing (as I did), then go, but do keep an open mind and remain observant and inquisitive; regardless of your position now, you will find things are quite different from how you thought they were.
-
Give me liberty or give me something of equal or lesser value from your glossy 32-page catalog.
Since Iraq needs to be rebuilt....
Why not hire and train Iraqi citizens to rebuild it?
There, no moral questions about hourly pay rates for the citizens of the country that bombed them in the first place.
You need to talk to people who have been there. Not recruters. If it checks aout any your exposure to risk is minimal go for it, go. I had a friend who went to Viet Nam and ran a "Bank of America" Branch on a base. He made tons of money and also some good life expierence. He talks about maintaining the check reading machines that were in a quanset hut with a dirt floor (loads of fun.)
All these folks are using this as an advantage to express there political leanings and anti war sentiment not to give you reasonable advice. In short talking about shit they know nothing about. This is not a referundum on George Bush, al-Qaida, 9/11 or, war and peace. It's about a overseas job.
The last thing you should trust is the news media, If it's so fucking dangerous how come they are still over there?
If you don't like what I write don't be a CS and mod it down. Refute it.
Yea I can't spell. So what is your point?
I have given allot of thought to this. I have been tempted to "go over the hill" so many times. Hell, I've been thinking about it since I was there back in 1989-93. A gravy job, tax free money, (AFTER 3 YEARS !!!) a fat wallet. What more could you ask for? A nice villa some where, a boat, a car ? Sure, they'll give it to you. A nice big old life insurance policy, sure they'll give that to you too. As for the other things like: female companionship, i.e. YOUR wife, or your girlfriend, or some nice local girl...NO WAY....Heck when I was there they executed two Egyptian woman for "talking" to some marines. The GI's were deported overnight . We (the entire unit) were INVITED to attend the BEHEADING down at the soccer...errr...football???? field on Friday night and our Commander denied us permission to go, not that any of us wanted to attend anyway...
/. People all like to fantasize that this is "Bush's war" (your ALL wrong by the way) but we nor did he ask for 9/11, the Cole , Beirut , the Kobar Tower bombings (I was there, and saw 2 diff barracks building get it, two diff years, one right next to me!!! And still to this day NO Justice!!), Lockerbie, Mogadishu, US. Embassies, how many suicide bombers? and on and on until the two recent beheadings (at least this time it was carried out by terrorists.)
... money, adrenaline, the challenge of staying alive when you know they are out to get you, all the dime store novel intrigue and suspense........Yup, still tempted !! No sarcasm intended. BUT I am still firmly on home town soil USA ......
The dangers facing "contract workers" today are many times more dangerous than even 10 years ago, it's hard to describe the climate as anything other than "extremely hazardous". It's NEVER been rosy for Americans in the middle east nor Africa and it never will be. Having said that, I would still go to one of these Third World Countries and continue mission given a realistic chance of surviving AND coming home with the loot.
Now a true story of a "contract veteran" I last saw "somewhere" in the middle east:
I had a Warrant officer who retired right after Operation Desert Storm and went and worked for the Saudi National Guard as a supply tech. While he was over there I "stopped in" to see him and to find out how he liked his new employers. His response (which was very negative and remain the main reasons I haven't yet went for any of these jobs) was that:
A) He was treated very badly. Worse than the Third Country Nationals.
B) They wouldn't let him bring over any dependences even after being there a year (that was the deal, after 1 year he got his wife and kids)
C) The supply system was broke worse than ours (meaning the US Army's) and no one would allow him to fix it. (Sound familiar??)
After all was said and done he fulfilled his contract and returned in one piece to the states. The same cannot be said of a lot of workers there today.
And FWIW IMNSHO Bush is the ONLY reason why we are not all bowing 5 times a day to a rock and all trying to figure out what happened to church bells on Sunday. I Know
Yet, I'm still tempted
Rod F.
PFC
Dawn, n.: The time when men of reason go to bed.
Hurricane Island Outward Bound
OB
Those who hope to profit from the spoils of war deserve death.
Do yourself (And the people in the beaten nation) a favor, and stay at home.
This American ponders how much money he can make and asks "is it safe?" Which epitomises a central aspect of the morally reprehensible nature of his society.
The American people will be ready to apply for readmission into the ranks of humanity when guys like this have the decency to say;
"Regardless of the personal benefits I might gain, I will not serve the cause of tyranny."
The rest of us are appalled by your behaviour. Change or be damned.
Now- heres the rub. You would think that kidnappings, hikackings, and detainment by rougue governments are things that you hear about on the news, yet dont generally happen very often
If you think this, then you are wrong
I can think of at least three things that have happened to people I know in these situations (NOTE: not things I have heard OF, or people I know OF- then we would be here all day). 1) a hijacking of an oil platform off of angola 2) kidnapping in colombia (lasted more than a year) 3) 2 year incarceration by corrupt government officials in nigeria.
However
As a former oil worker myself, I can safely say that the dangers posed by political instability are nothing compared to the health and safety hazards posed in these danger zones. Health and safty in the british sector of the north sea is bad, but health and safety in many parts of the world is basically non existant.
This is far more likely to kill you that political violence, even in a reletively sheltered job such as network engineer,
- oil
:
- personal agenda
- personal vendeta
- media misdirection
summary
- money
- power
I haven't been in Baghdad, as a disclaimer. However, I am quite likely going to serve a 2-3 month stint there sometime in '05. The contract I'm working on (and this is tech geek computer stuff) has a continual Baghdad presence, so here's what I know.
:) You're unlikely, as a contractor, to get shot there (though we had a guy who was, but it was a freak occurrence and a very minor wound) or blown up if you're not hanging around the gates. But there are other bases, mentioned in the article. Are you going to need to travel between them? That, boys and girls, is where you're at most risk. Find out the details on how often, and by what means. There are convoys, and no they don't all get blown up, but yes some of them do. Armor on your humvees can protect against some things. You'll probably have a flak jacket. That won't help in the case of an IED (Improvised Explosive Device), though. Neither will a gun. There's also helicoptors but those are much less likely to be used. Personally, those are my preference.
First off, if you want to work in a tech geek capacity you're most likely going to need a security clearance. These aren't things you pick up overnight! The investigations usually take about 1-2 years (sometimes longer), require lots of paperwork, have personalized background checks (they'll talk to your coworkers and neighbors), and so on and so forth. Maybe there's a way to super expedite things. I know expediting it usually means '12-15 months' instead of '24 months'. There's interim clearances you can get quicker that might work. Also, you can't just walk down to NSA and ask for a clearance, you'll need a sponsor. In addition to time and resources these things are costing someone money. Maybe if you don't have a clearance you could work in an unclassified environment for a couple months while getting an interim, and I imagine there are some jobs that don't need it, but the folks I'm aware of in Baghdad and Afghanistan need one.
Second off, ask lots of questions. Figure out where you're going. Where you'll be living. How much travel you'll be doing. What the security arrangement is. Standard line is that you're unarmed as a contractor. Now, maybe some people get their hands on guns, I don't know, but I can't imagine the soldiers are going to like you toting one around a secured base if you're not supposed to have one. They don't want to risk friendly fire incidents, someone starting a huge flare-up because they aren't following Rules of Engagement, etc. That said, I plan on getting some experience at civilian equivalents of what's commonly used over there. It's not like I plan on shooting but if something really really bad happened, it'd be nice to know that I had the option. Probably if all hell breaks loose you can find a gun.
Now, travel. There are different things you can be doing over there. I'm familiar most with Baghdad. But if you check out this link and the section on 'Coalition Facilities' midway down you can see there's a lot of soldiers and bases large and small over there. Camp Victory North is the safest from what I hear. It's the biggest, it's the closest to the airport, it has a Burger King at the PX.
I could ramble on and on but I'll ony ramble a bit more. There's a lot of things to think about but why you're there is a big one. Sure, there's money, and that's a good draw for a lot of people. If you're risking your life (and you are) it helps if there's more than money motivating you. At the least, you don't want to be against the situation over there, or you will be miserable and so will those around you. If you're going over there to help build infrastructure for the country, fine. If you're going over there to help protect Coalition lives, great. If you're going over there to get a bunch of money and think the whole Iraq thing is a big screw-up that you in no way support except for the desire to make a buck, I'd seriously reconsider.
Oh, and one final note: Royal Air
... for the CoE to develop some more capabilities. If you think hydrology and infrastructure are easy, you don't know much about them. The problems also gets exponetially harder when you are expected to be able to work in environments ranging from dessert to jungle.
If the CoE can handle civil, it can learn most IT tasks.
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
All I'd say to this is I'm sure a lot of them are nice people I'm just not sure I'd agree this is the way to fight a war. In particular, if you are fighting an insurgency using locals to cook for your army and do all your construction isn't a particularly good idea. A few well placed infiltraters and your Army is screwed.
Using contractors to interrogate prisoners is an even better example of how deeply flawed it is for an Army to be at the mercy of profiteers for critical services. You can't make them answer for their actions the way you can a soldier.
I think the $200 billion dollar, and counting, price tag on this war suggests dependence on money is no object contracting is proving to be pretty expensive.
You also can't count on contractors if the going gets rough.
All in all I'd say if you are going to fight a war build an army to do it, or don't do it in the first place.
@de_machina