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Pentagon Seeks A Loophole In The Privacy Act
CygnusXII writes "As reported over @ wired.com. It seems that Homeland Security isn't the only govermental body wanting to keep a database on the good old U.S. population. 'The bill would allow Pentagon intelligence agents to work undercover and question American citizens and legal residents without having to reveal that they are government agents. That exemption currently applies only to law enforcement officials working on criminal cases and to the CIA, which is prohibited from operating in the United States.' Kinda adds a whole new meaning to 'We want you!', or should it be 'We want all your secrets'?"
That exemption currently applies only to law enforcement officials working on criminal cases...
Which is to say that the DoD is trying to get into the subject area that is presently the property of the FBI along with state and local police forces. It's not that this kind of work can't be done by the US Government, but that the wrong division is asking to do it.
The DoD runs our armed forces... they are not designed for law enforcement and when they are asked to do so they usually do a poor job of it. This provision in the law should be stricken and replaced with more funding to the FBI and other police forces so that the people who should be gathering info on US soil can continue to do so correctly.
First the start taking over foreign policy, now law enforcement...?? What's next for the DoD? (Patriotic) education? Will American kiddies have to start going to camp wearing red, white, and blue scarves?
People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
Pentagon officials say the exemption would not affect civil liberties and is needed so that its agents can obtain information from sources who may be afraid of government agents, such as a green-card-holding professor of nanotechnology who formerly lived under a repressive government.
We're getting there....
"There is no teacher but the enemy."-Mazer Rackham
I'm sorry, but if someone wants to ask me questions, and they A) aren't wearing a police uniform or B) identify themselves as law enforcement/criminal investigators, I'm not saying jack.
Well, We have this, traffic light cameras, security cameras everywhere, probably tracking via cell phone and GPS, personal and rental cars with built in GPS, grocery store coupon cards, etc... Where will it end? I guess it probably won't ever stop. Data mining is becoming the hot feature of buisnesses and goverments. Is it still worth the fight for privacy? If you abide by the laws, then there shouldn't be any problems.
I'm sure there are people out there that detest all the personal surveillance, but if a crime is committed and caught on tape, I think it should be used to prosicute the criminal. I personally don't want to be tracked everywhere I go, but if I was mugged in an alley, I would hope a camera would catch the criminal. It would bring some justice to me and *help* to justify the big brother tactics.
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Please submit any spare Gmail invitations that you might have
Flawed logic -- then all Slashdot categories must be suffixed with "online", hence none needs it, for it would be redundant.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
"Pentagon officials say the exemption would not affect civil liberties and is needed so that its agents can obtain information from sources who may be afraid of government agents, such as a green-card-holding professor of nanotechnology who formerly lived under a repressive government."
And this is supposed to make him feel better how? By HIDING the fact that he's talking to a government agent?
You're right. The DoD is not designed for law enforcement. And there is no reason for the DoD to have undercover agents checking on US citizens (and legal residents).
Do you really want Military Intelligence officers spying upon US citizens on US soil?
From the article:
"In February, Army intelligence agents improperly sought information about attendees at a University of Texas law school conference about Muslim women. Conference organizers refused to provide a videotape of the event to the officers and publicized the request, leading to an apology by the Army."
The only way to keep the government honest is to keep it open.
Am I the only one that thinks that the current laws that are trying to be passed are as scary as hell and are taking away the rights of U.S. citizens?
Does the U.S. Department of Defence really need to spy on it's own people? The U.S.A. is really starting to scare the hell out of me with more and more of these silly laws trying to be passed. Thank goodness I'm a Canadain.
DO something!!
you're headed into fascism.
Well, they probably understand the concept of privacy very well. It's just that they want to want to cover their asses legally. As an example of this, look at the current US administration (and Pentagon) handling of the concept of torture :
When one starts examining the defence of convicted war criminals in order to avoid prosecution, I think someone should be paying attention.
...or the KGB, eh?
What needs to be done is very active campaigning regarding privacy and civil rights, and why it is so important to preserve these rights and never ever give them up, especially now that there is this "war against terrorism." And it has to be done in a way that the above-mentioned people can understand.
People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
These 'Pentagon intelligence agents' aren't going to be checked or balanced by all those troublesome laws and regulations that civilian law enforcement has to abide. With no civilian agency required to do the initial investigating, it will nicely streamline the process of whisking away people to be held indefinately at undisclosed locations. Those pesky records kept by the CIA, NSA, or FBI agents will no longer be a concern, and accountability will be limited to following orders.
It is already clear that the completely closed military courts are neither just nor appropriate for the purposes they are being bent to. Eliminating the role of agencies already dedicated to those tasks can have only one intent, to expedite these un-American practices and do so without the knowledge or approval of the American public.
The rich who rule over and dictate our lives fear that you are a terrorist and will possibly cause harm to beverly hills.
You are now a suspect because you are poor and have no voice (no money)
Vote the Republicans out of office based on their ACTIONS.
Does this look like LESS GOVERNMENT?
I cant beleive the amount of brainwashed republicans out there who go fuck crazy over their $300 tax return. "its your money" Yeah well "It's your country" and look at what these folks are doing to it!!!
These are not republicans.
Vote Bush Out!
And the dems are just as currupt, but i think they're learning a little.
Frankly in an ideal world we would have a 3rd party president win this election. Someone like Nader. Someone who is completely seperate from the two party system that is bought and paid for buy the enrons, the fords, the mcis, the halleburtons, krafts, aols, etc...
I'd vote for a fucking steel worker from PA if he was running. Oh yeah we dont really manufacture much of that anymore here in america.
That's no excuse for the US military to be able to harass US citizens in the US.
It really is quite sad.
The government can raid my house, throw me in prison, and ruin my life - all in the name of national security. It's an extremely disturbing thought.
Big government / brother is not science fiction anymore, it is a reality. It's disturbing, to say the least. RFID imbedded in to everything you buy, is just the next step. This database doesn't suprise me in the least. They've kept records for years, it's what they do.
I live in illinois, it's a police state. I've already been fined several hundreds of dollars for jaywalking, and owning a NOT USED, CLEAN, TOBACCO pipe. You are guilty until proven innocent, around here.
I'm 24, an american, and I want to leave. This is a nightmare. A law may come in to fruition, that if I leave and a draft is reinstated, I will be sent back here and possibly thrown in jail, or be forced to serve for a country I don't believe in. We aren't all greedy capitalist pigs, you know. Some of us are actually decent human beings.
I hate to be such a pessimist, but if you live in the states, your life is going to be more difficult, and if anything - MORE dangerous than it is now. Throw a wrapper out of the window of your car? You could be signaling terrorists that are on the side of the road planting IED's. Think i'm joking? Just wait. It's a pretty far fetched example, but with this administration, would you expect anything else?
The problem is that the military doesn't even play by the loosened rules that the appropriate civilian agencies now have. The fact anyone found out about Abu Ghraib was a chance mistake, and eliminating the involvement of other government branches makes it far less likely such un-American conduct will be brought to light and corrected.
This wild expansion of scope is redundant and dangerous, enough checks and balances have fallen by the wayside already. There is nothing 'Pentagon intelligence operatives' can do that can't be done by the agencies already in place - except keep the evidence of what they're doing entirely under military control.
"We need to stop looking at terrorism as a crime issue and realize it is a National Security/War issue."
That's right! Everyone! Please REMEMBER to NOT VOTE FOR OSAMA IN NOVEMBER. Terrorist forces are only MONTHS away from overthowing the US government and forcing ALL US CITIZENS to attend Islamic schools!
"He is fighting a war, not shoplifting."
The same as various mafia families fight "wars".
The same as various drug gangs fight "wars".
More US citizens die from drug-related crime than from terrorists.
Terrorism can be reduced by simply applying the same techniques that law enforcement does. Track the money. That's how all of those other terrorist cells have been found in Europe.
There is a reason why under the Geneva conventions, it is illegal for a soldier to operate dressed as a civilian. Because the laws and customs of war are based on the assumption that war is carried out by combatants who make themselves obvious in one way or another as combatants. In guerrilla war, people become obvious combatants when they attack, or when they are searched in a known war zone and found likely to be combatants based on having lots of grenades or whatever.
A 'terrorist' on the other hand, is defined as 'anyone who the State Department says is a terrorist'. If we were to use your logic and treat terrorists as 'enemy soldiers', then that would mean the ability of the authorities to shoot on sight anyone classified by the Department of State as a terrorist. But how do you identify a terrorist--unless he is packing weapons or you find out about his plans?
The fact is this is *not* a war. The USA is *not* a combat zone, any more than London was a combat zone when IRA attacks were frequent. Terrorism is political crime, but it is crime nonetheless--not carried out by a sovereign state subject to treaty law, not carried out by centralised organisations with clearly defined hierarchies, and most importantly it is damn near impossible to identify a terrorist 'combatant' until it is obvious that they are going to actually carry out an act of terrorism.
And the State Department has already decided that loads of people are terrorists who do not fit this criterion--for example anarchists, like a 14-year-old kid I knew who was arrested and interrogated by the FBI because he had an anti-war leaflet in his bag at the airport, and added to the 'terrorism list' before they let him off.
Who is an enemy soldier is a very clear question. Who is a 'terrorist' however is an extremely subjective judgement. And by your logic my 14-year-old friend should have been shot on sight, or at least taken to a POW camp for indefinite detention and military trial.
The world is not different to what it was before 2001, terrorism has existed for hundreds of years, the difference is that it's being used as an excuse for the biggest crackdown on opposition in the west and in fact in the larger world since the 1930s.
You don't get it.
9/11 = the lives of 3,000 (in America, anyway)
an inalienable right = the lives of all 250,000,000
Don't be a fool and vote to sacrifice all of our lives in order to "save" one or two.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
Not again.... Look, that's just fucking retarded. Should everyone open their lives to gevernment scrutiny? How about the motherfucker who doesn't have a SS number and isn't trackable? How do you propse to spy on him if he "doesn't exist?" Come on. Any system like this is flawed and only harms the law-abiding. Criminals are not stupid. Terrorists are not stupid. They will find a way to do their business regardless of the magnitudes of purported anti-terrorist systems we employ. How about solving the real problem? The United States should stop fucking around in other countries back yards for a change. Stop pissing off people, and maybe they won't come back and blow your shit up.
Slashdot is proof that Sturgeon's Law applies to mankind.
Unless you are ordered to by a judge under agreement of protection, you dont have to say boo to anyone...
So.. i suggest that if ANYONE asks you questions, you politly decline. If they turn out to be feds, then they will have to take you to court to get anything out of you.
Cant trust anyone.. BB is watching..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Really just a natural extension to
...
Poindexter's TIA (Total Information
Awareness) project (which lives!)
I could have sworn that the only
military arm that has ANY LEGAL
DOMESTIC charter is the Nat. Guard.
Once DoD gets involved in domestic law
enforcement investigations, the next
step is assigning "political officers"
to each brigade, just like the Nazis
and Stalinists, as well as "Cuban-style"
neighborhood watch/informers
Oh, wait, we already have that bit with
the establishment of the HSA, via phone,
letter, or website. (Amaze your friends,
and strike fear into your neighbors:
file a suspicious report against them
and watch the fun ensue as various Fed
agencies trip all over themselves trying
to "score" the next "big terrorist plot".)
Don't think that the Patriot Act & HSA
are not being used to counter domestic
political opposition: that has already
happened when FAA, FBI, & HSA got involved
in the search for the "missing" Texas
Democratic legislators, as well as the
computer server "breakins" at the US
Senate.
These bastards that have taken over the
government all swore an oath to protect
the US Constitution and Bill or Rights.
Their actions already qualify them (IMO)
for impeachment and trial (and prison).
How hard is it going to be to get these
"national socialists" voted out of office?
(Especially considering their $6 billion USD
initiative for "upgrading to eVoting" ?
So some asshole comes up to you and starts questioning you about Al-Qaeda, but doesn't say he's FBI. Either its blindingly obvious that he is, or you tell him to fuck off.
The FBI already runs domestic undercover operations. The Department of Defense isn't supposed to. Theoretically, when the FBI arrests someone, the arrestee enjoys certain legal rights. But similar persons in the custody of the military (e.g Jose Padilla) are imprisoned at the pleasure of Mr Bush.
Why not? I mean, it's not we've got anything to hide, right? They'll only get the bad people, right? Right?
Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
It seems that for some strange reason I've been using the word "Orwellian" allot in the last three and a half years. I'm not going to venture a guess as to why...
Seriously though, it's funny how utterly apathetic people are these days. People bandy about the term "freedom" but as long as they have the "freedom" to buy things people don't seem to care about the rest of it. A minority talk about what rights are slipping away, but still cast the valiant few who take to the streets as hippies and whackos. It's sick really.
What is it going to take for it to be too much? Seriously, stop and think about what exactly the government would have to do for you to be willing to do more than talk. Then think about how effective your protest will be if it gets bad enough for you to protest at all. Will you wait for a total suspension of civil liberties? Mass arrests? Until there are turrets on the street corners and "papers" required to move across state lines? Seriously. I want to say that people need to do something now, but the truth is that people needed to do something a year and a half ago. I'm not talking about revolution or anything... just make the dissenting voices impossible to ignore by adding your own.
The current administration isn't ready (yet) to start ignoring elections and the army wouldn't follow orders from people who lost elections. So go out and freaking VOTE! And then make it clear to the people you get put in that they're there to fix things. Politicians want job security because it takes more than a couple of terms in office to really secure the personal fortune. Make them fix things or throw the buggers out.
Slashdot accepts this report (which is not terribly significant) but ignores submissions which establish that the Total Information Awareness Program - which is far more insidious than a few CID guys running around in civilian clothes - is alive and well and running right now as a Pentagon black budget item. /.'ers...clueless.
"Stuff that matters" - yeah, right.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
Well, when the US Government shuts down Slashdot and all you are prevented from ranting and raving, maybe a little bit of what you're ranting about will make sense.
However, the US Government isn't shutting down Slashdot, and you rant on and on.
I can't wait for the egg to dry on a lot of people's face. Problem is, you'll all be off ranting about something new then.
resigned
Wouldn't such a bill that allows government agents to not reveal their government employment also help crooks? Now they too could question potential victims and obtain very sensitve data and go under the disguise of a government agent saying "I'm sorry I can't reveal that. Its clanssified". And how would we be able to verify their identity? We can't even complain in some situations. If this bill is passed to law it would really help social engineering, and screw the rest of us. What are the repercussions for Canada? Will we have to comply through our various pacts and treaties?
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Registered .sig quotient : 1337
all your thoughts/secrets are belong to us...
Welcome to the new, brave, free America - free so long as you agree.
I'm a skeptic and deal in data. I don't know how old you are, but I'm old enough to have seen the government lie, I mean come up with whoppers, then years later it gets found out. Want a big one? Remember a little excursion called viet nam? We allegedly got attacked in the tonkin gulf by north vietnamese gunboats, so we had to go to war because they were gonna invade iowa any week later? that war not called a war but really was a war? I watched military goon after political lackey swear up and down that happened, eventually leading us into a more than a decade-long war, fifty thousand US dead, 2 to 3 million vietnamese dead. A war based on a total lie, just now this year offically admitted to, we have the released audio of mcnamara and johnson talking about it, yet all sorts of people-like me-kept saying it was a lie, and waited through drivel that statists like you spewed out for years and years. You aren't the first to defend a lie or liars, especially with not even a juvenile (and shopuld be embarrassing to you) debate 101 tactic. I don't know if it's on purpose, or you are uneducated, lack any sort of historical perspective, or if you get paid to do it, or what, but eventually, this generations governmental lies will become more well known than they are now, and the liars will be universally recognized as such. Already, hundreds of millions around the planet can see they are liars, funny you seemed to have missed any of the news lately. And frankly, with a tool like the internet, there is no excuse to remain uninformed any longer except crass laziness. Are you still maintaining that iraq = al queda and they bought uranium from niger? Is that a fact, or is it a lie? Which is it, binary answer now. So if I say it's a lie, and it's proven, that makes it ..what? To me, that makes it just a statement of data. It is not a theory now, it's data, even the government who first claimed it admits it's a lie. that makes them *liars* because they got told it was a lie before they uttered it in public, at the state of the union message, and in front of the Un security council.
I am a skeptic, and going from past governments track record, it is prudent to be skeptical of their statements, and to look for a wide range of sources and information before coming to a conclusion. Do you do that? Do you think I want my government to be lying, that this gives me some sort of pleasure? Do you think I like seeing people mislead, lied to, and murdered and thieved from, whether americans or others?
I have several personal friends suffering from the lingering effects of agent orange poisoning, based on the lies the war and political profiteers spewed way back then. The government - military, scientists, politicians, all declared *at the time* that it was perfectly safe, that it wasn'
t chemical warfare (how spraying chemicals isn't chemical is beyond me, but it's what they claimed). Turns out, they were lying, thousands died a pretty horrible death, suffering from it, hundreds of thousands in viet nam suffered from it, and they knew they were lying at the time, they just waited for a couple of decades and change to admit to it, that and after thousands of people showed them the facts and kept embarrassing them in public. Is this "conspiracy theory" or data? I say it's data, proven, but I heard a lot of drivel that it wasn't true-from the liars, bbecause that is their nature, commit crimes and lie about them. It's a simple concept. It's one of the things criminals do, they lie.
In short, your extremely amateur trolling means nothing, except people can read the entire exchange and realise that nothing has changed in the mindset of criminals or criminal supporters-they lie by choice, with phony sincerity, or with malicious sarcasm, which means they are clinically sociopathic, and they always deny involvement, or excuse it, which shows they are psychopathic.
Have a good one, next time send someone competent, perhaps with a higher GS rating. You won't make the data go away, it's still there, an
That's something people used to say when I was growing up in the 1960s, when somebody complained about the way our American system worked. In Russia you couldn't do things like travel without a permit, and the Secret Police could whisk you off if you said or did anything the government considered a threat. They could question you and detain you for as long as they wanted. That couldn't happen Over Here, because this is the Land of the Free.
Our government seems to have developed the same level of paranoia, and is seeking and getting the same level of power to swoop down on anybody at any time. I'm very afraid that people in other countries will one day discourage their kids from whining about their system by asking them that if they would rather live in America.