Slashdot Mirror


Breeding Race Cars With Genetic Algorithms

smack-pot writes "Wired News has an article about how the Digital Biology Interest Group at University College, London is using genetic algorithms to breed superfast Formula-One race cars. 68 design parameters were configurable in the cars, and the generated designs were tested using the racing simulation software developed by the game developer Electronic Arts. According to the research it is possible to shave off 88/100th of a second per lap by using genetic algorithms to tune the cars. In an industry where a tiny fraction of a second matters, that's significant."

187 comments

  1. Wow! by anethema · · Score: 5, Funny

    This will EVOLUTIONALIZE racing ;)

    --


    It's easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
    1. Re:Wow! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wow! the big teams will get even faster while small teams can't afford to build yet another car until enough money is raised (minardi had problems with several parts during a race i think its monte carlo and on the next event the parts could be replaced)

      but still its a very instresting approach since the costs of development seem to be going down, because it's simulated.

    2. Re:Wow! by freeduke · · Score: 0

      I'd like to improve the picture quality on my TV, I will now consider using genetic algorithms for tunig this. Thank you guys!

    3. Re:Wow! by Lars+T. · · Score: 1, Funny

      No way! God created all racecars on a Sunday 5987 years ago!

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    4. Re:Wow! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eh, who cares? Minardi only got their first championship point for four years yesterday, and that's only because there were 9 finishers and the last one of them was lame! Look, Minardi are shit. Maybe they should get the message.

    5. Re:Wow! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, they generally have to be more careful how they spend their money so I'd expect the management process to be much tighter to ensure that they spend their money wisely. You also need to look at "small" teams like BAR, who of course came from pretty much nothing last season to actualy contending for a top spot in the constructors and drivers championships this season.

      I'd love to see the smaller teams do better, but I don't think restricting the bigger teams is the way to it. BAR prove that smaller teams can do just as well as the big boys; they just have to be good and it happens that Mindardi just arn't a good team.

    6. Re:Wow! by flewp · · Score: 1

      Well, they may get more bang for their buck, but I'm going to guess that the bang gets more expensive when you're using much better technology. Minardi also uses older engines and chassis, whereas Ferrari constantly researches and develops, and works harder than any other team right now. That's why they have over twice the points of any team AND their drivers are 1-2 in the WDC.

      --
      WWJD.... for a Klondike bar?
    7. Re:Wow! by Tomahawk · · Score: 1

      Yeah, well Mindari really don't have a chance. How can you compete against someone what that amount of money?

      They don't have the money to research and build their own engines. They can only buy the last years' engine that other teams are no longer using.

      A lot of the back-of-the-grid teams are in the same position - limited budgets means limitations on the cars the the richer teams don't have.

      I would like to see Ferarri operating on a Mindari budget to see just who comes up with the best car. My money would be on Mindari.

      T.

    8. Re:Wow! by flewp · · Score: 1

      Possibly, but give Minardi the same budget as Ferrari and they won't even come close to putting together a car like Ferrari.

      --
      WWJD.... for a Klondike bar?
    9. Re:Wow! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, First its spelled Minardi not Mindari(of Bab 5 fame). Second they just scored their first point this weekend at the U.S. GP. Thirdly, most of this is academic, since the FIA(the governing body of Formula 1)would just ban any of the improvements that the algorithm would generate in order to "improve safety". Also in Ferrari case it's not just money, its the focus of the tire partner(Bridgestone) and they have 2 test tracks, something the British based teams(Williams for example) can't build.

    10. Re:Wow! by Tomahawk · · Score: 1

      Certainly not immediately. It took Ferrari a number of years to get to where they are today.

      Give Minardi the same budget and facilities as Ferrari, and about 5 years, and they see where they will be.

      Their engineers are very good out of getting the most of out what they have, so imagine them getting the most out of the cutting-edge tech that the richer teams use.

      'twould be nice to see.

      T.

    11. Re:Wow! by ServerXP · · Score: 1

      I have always been a racing fan for cars and I am amazed at the progress and technology that this can do. I enjoy watching the cars go around in circles effortlessly at high speeds. :D

  2. I drive a Grand AM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How will this benefit me, Joe Sixpack?

  3. Genetic algorithms explained by ArbiterOne · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here's a good link for people who don't know what genetic algorithms are:

    1. Re:Genetic algorithms explained by stevey · · Score: 5, Funny

      Here's a good link for people who don't know what Formula One racing is.

    2. Re:Genetic algorithms explained by Lars+T. · · Score: 5, Funny

      Here's a good link for people who want to find out more about any unknown terms.

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    3. Re:Genetic algorithms explained by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      But before using Google, you must buy a computer

    4. Re:Genetic algorithms explained by naden · · Score: 2, Funny

      Here's a good link for people who want to find out more about any unknown terms.

      Thanks ever so much .. I can finally figure out what this Linux thing is.

      --
      Funtage Factor: Purple
    5. Re:Genetic algorithms explained by aussie_a · · Score: 5, Funny

      Here's a good link for people who don't know what links are.

    6. Re:Genetic algorithms explained by torpor · · Score: 1

      And here is a good link if you don't really know what a thread is ...

      --
      ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
    7. Re:Genetic algorithms explained by orthogonal · · Score: 0
      Here's a good link for people who want to find out more about any unknown terms.

      What kind of unknown terms?

      Or as Secretary of Defense "Robert S." Rumsfeld put it at a Department of Defense news briefing:
      As we know,
      There are known knowns.
      There are things we know we know.
      We also know
      There are known unknowns.
      That is to say
      We know there are some things
      We do not know.
      But there are also unknown unknowns,
      The ones we don't know
      We don't know.


      I found that at Wikipedia, which is also a pretty good place to find out about known unknown terms, or to explain knowns known to you to others to whom those terms are known unknowns.
    8. Re:Genetic algorithms explained by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 4, Funny

      Here's a good link for people who don't know what people are.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    9. Re:Genetic algorithms explained by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's nothing technically wrong with that statement you know.

    10. Re:Genetic algorithms explained by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can anyone explain more?

      Yep, glad you asked. Linux is an operating system kernel that you can run on many different kinds of computers. Usually it is packaged together with a whole lot of unix tools from the FSF into a GNU/Linux distribution. The system is fast and reliable and there is all kinds of free software available to mess around with. So get to it!

    11. Re:Genetic algorithms explained by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's a good link for people who don't know who invented the Internet.

    12. Re:Genetic algorithms explained by Dick+Faze · · Score: 1

      Here's a good link for people who actually needed to use the 3 previous 'good links'

    13. Re:Genetic algorithms explained by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude!

  4. It should be noted that... by mOoZik · · Score: 5, Informative

    It should be noted that the "research" was done with a video game and no actual tests have been conducted on real cars and situations. This does not mean the techniques cannot be applied in real situations, but just that it has not been done yet.

    1. Re:It should be noted that... by Analogy+Man · · Score: 5, Informative
      This is a very good point. From my experience optimization algorithms are very powerful tools for finding weaknesses in simulations. Using genetic algorithms to optimize wings for supersonic aircraft I ran into some "interesting" solutions. The boundary layer algorithm did not do a very good job of predicting seperation so it over worked some areas of the design beyond what physically would work.

      This is not to say that this is not a very powerful tool for complex design spaces. If your design space is not particularly interesting (few localized optimums) gradient methods are more intuitive and efficient.

      --
      When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
    2. Re:It should be noted that... by Lars+T. · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually it isn't even that. The teams are usually very secretive about how they optimize their cars, so nobody knows whether they use GAs or not.

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    3. Re:It should be noted that... by Bishop · · Score: 1

      Genetic Algorithms, or similar techniques, are probably used by some teams. Most teams have a huge database of the various setups used in the past. That data could be used to feed a complex model of a car's performance for a given driver. The models must be tuned to a given driver, as drivers have strong preferences for how their cars are tuned.

    4. Re:It should be noted that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I'll second this. I've done alot of work with GA's, and if your fitness function has a loophole, a GA will find it! I've had some converge to some really bizarre & interesting (but completely infeasible) corner cases.

    5. Re:It should be noted that... by Flyboy+Connor · · Score: 1
      It should be noted that the "research" was done with a video game and no actual tests have been conducted on real cars and situations. This does not mean the techniques cannot be applied in real situations, but just that it has not been done yet.

      Absolutely true. I work with evolutionary algorithms all day, and the fact of the matter is that simulations are notoriously inaccurate when it comes to predicting real-world behaviour. Fine-tuning 68 parameters with an evolutionary algorithm is not that difficult. I have seen many applications that are far more challenging (evolutionary programming applications, for instance). I strongly suspect that gaining less than a second in the simulation falls within the error margin of the translation of the simulation to the real race-car.

    6. Re:It should be noted that... by ishmaelflood · · Score: 1

      That's generally true of any optimisation process. If it explores the solution space properly it will exploit weaknesses in the model. This is often rather useful as it tests your assumptions.

      We run into the same thing when we do a trade-off analysis - if the result is counterintuitive it can be because people were interpreting a given factor in different ways, or the model is badly constructed.

      While this can be irritating, it is at least educational.

  5. So by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    when a driver slams into the wall, will this be a GMO accident?

    1. Re:So by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's hope it isn't a GPF as well.

    2. Re:So by Epistax · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what a GMO accident is, but I think a crash with a single fatality could win two darwin awards.

    3. Re:So by psetzer · · Score: 0

      I guess that means the F in F-1 stands for Frankencar. I guess it's an America only update then.

      --
      "Anyone who attempts to generate random numbers by deterministic means is living in a state of sin." -- John von Neumann
    4. Re:So by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      GMO = genetically modified organism

  6. Thoroughbred cars.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does this mean that they will have pedigrees now?

  7. Pedigree by Ratface · · Score: 5, Funny

    How long then before racecars come with a "pedigree" like a champion racehorse or a Crufts prizewinning pooch?

    "And Schumacher rides to victory again in his car 'Victorious Monarch' which of course comes from the Ferrari stable and is the offspring of 'Burning Rubber' and 'Teutonic Speed Demon'"

    --

    A little planning goes a long way...
    1. Re:Pedigree by nacturation · · Score: 1

      "Thanks to an initially nasty mutation which smoothed out in the 38th generation, we found that the 'Powered by Stickers' sticker was causing undue shear."

      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    2. Re:Pedigree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought that's what Scuderi Ferrari meant in italian, "From the stable of Ferrari"

  8. how to do it. by gadget+junkie · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ..For example, by:

    1. computer-modeling an actual car;
    2. Spawn a neat million cars, differing only in their electronics (fuel injection parameters, ABS, traction control,etc.)
    3. select for desired caracteristic;
    4."mix genetics"
    5. respawn.

    I guess that if you can access your car's electronics, you can do that yourself, but I think it will void any warranty. BTW, i know that here in Italy some outfits offer on the sly to change the electronic parameters of a car, especially turbo diesel, to increase max power and torque.

    --
    "If a boss demands loyalty, give him integrity. But if he demands integrity, give him loyalty." (John Boyd, 1927-1997)
    1. Re:how to do it. by Zog+The+Undeniable · · Score: 4, Informative
      BTW, i know that here in Italy some outfits offer on the sly to change the electronic parameters of a car, especially turbo diesel, to increase max power and torque.

      AKA "chipping". At the expense of engine life, this can get huge power gains out of turbocharged cars by increasing the maximum boost. Normally aspirated cars can be pushed up a few bhp by messing with the fuelling, but generally the gains are less obvious so they're sold as "driveability improvements" for non-turbos. To get a decent power increase from a non-turbo engine you need to make it breathe better. Porting and gasflowing the head is most effective (and expensive). Fitting bigger valves, hotter camshafts etc will all still do a lot more than a chip!

      --
      When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
    2. Re:how to do it. by freeduke · · Score: 0
      Is it still usable without any software modelisation? Indeed, this algorithm deals with kinds of mutations allowed: in this field those are motor caracteristics, the tires,... and a bad mutation leads to a car crash!!

      On the other hand, if you have got a model, this may only lead to discovering how to improve your model because all those really accurate tunings will obviously fall into the gap of the differences between your model and reality. Moreover a formula one does not depend on only 10 factors as in video games, so the model used here seems to be really far from reality.

    3. Re:how to do it. by HFXPro · · Score: 2, Informative

      No replacement for displacement. j/k ;-) If you put bigger valves, camshafts with more lift, etc you will also need a new chip though, as many of the stock chips won't be able to handle the new parameters (like the extra fuel on the exhaust side at low rpm caused by the bigger cam). Thus you really need a tunable chip so you can match your new parameters. I'd stay away from nitrous unless your doing a dedicated race machine in which case by all means put enough nitrous on it to blow the engine within a year (or sooner depending on how much money you can spend on engines).

      --
      Reserved Word.
    4. Re:how to do it. by zero_offset · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's just stupid. There are many, many people who run nitrous on daily driven street cars. In fact, you can buy them in as small as 25 HP shots, so they are by no means something that should be reserved for "dedicated race machines".

      Your comments about needing an aftermarket ECU are also misled. Most stock ECUs are programmable to some degree, and some are highly adaptable. I know a guy running a 30 PSI turbo in his 780+ HP Supra and he's on the stock ECU. Granted, if he went aftermarket he could pick up another 50 HP or so, but that's beside the point.

      --

      Slashdot quality declines as the number of hot grits posts decreases. - Provolt's Law, Apr-09-2005

    5. Re:how to do it. by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      I'd stay away from nitrous unless your doing a dedicated race machine

      I'd stay away from nitrous period - the last thing you need is to get a 50hp boost as you enter a corner (or exit one). If your engine can handle 50 more hp, upgrade the turbo/IC. Nitrous is for the FF crowd.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
  9. Re:What about the driver? Is he tunable too? by makapuf · · Score: 4, Informative

    88/100 = 0.88
    So it's about one second.
    500 lap race = 440s. Not insignificant.

  10. Mutant cars by Zog+The+Undeniable · · Score: 5, Funny

    This lot must have come from one of those places where it's still legal to marry your sister...

    --
    When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
  11. Slow moving by pubjames · · Score: 4, Interesting


    I did some research and programming in this field over a decade ago. The really frustrating thing about this field is how slow moving it is and how little it is taken seriously.

    When you have constructed an environment and electronic "organisms" that can breed within that environment, and then watched the generations gradually improve and adapt to the environment, you get the feeling of a new kind of power that we haven't really tapped yet - evolution.

    I think one of the problems is that people don't get what is happening in these types of projects. When I showed people the projects I was working on - even biologists and computer scientists - the first reaction was that what they were seeing was just a simulation - i.e. that I had programmed in the fact that the organisms adapted to the environment. It took a lot of explaining to convince some people that what they were seeing was actual evolution, albeit in digital form.

    The fact that this research is just looking at breeding cars which are used in a computer game just demonstrates how slow moving developments in this area are. Evolution could be used to improve many aspects of cars -- their engineering, efficiency, production and even visual design. It will happen one day, but it's taking us a hell of a time to realise that we can exploit the force that produced all the wonderful things we see in nature.

    1. Re:Slow moving by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Genetic algorithms are better in problems where you can produce/evaluate a candidate solution really fast. Imagine if you had to spend several minutes (or hours) with simulation, just to evaluate a single individual.. If you then got a very complex search space, you probably had to use a population size of several thousand candidate solutions, and run the GA for several thousand of generations.

      What Im saying is that you got two separate ussies here: The complexity of the search space and the complexity of the evaluation of a single solution. In general,- You should look into other means of solving the optimization problem if its very costly to evaluate one solution. Some problems are better solved by manually hand tuning the parameters. After all, in many cases the human got much better undterstanding of the problem than a GA (which really dont know anything about the problem).. And lets not forget a human engineer know a lot of those rules of thumb.

    2. Re:Slow moving by pubjames · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Mr Anonymous

      if I read your post correctly, you are basically saying that evolution is often not a good method to use because humans can do better without it.

      I say, take a look at a whale, a swallow, a spider, a virus. Can human engineers do better than these self-replicating, self-healing machines that are perfectly optimised to their environments?

    3. Re:Slow moving by Pooua · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The really frustrating thing about this field is how slow moving it is and how little it is taken seriously.

      It is difficult to take seriously a field that is advocated by people possessing more of an idealistic agenda than a pragmatic demonstration of benefits. AI in general suffers from this problem. In the case of GA, some people insist on using the technique as an argument advocating biological evolution, even though 1) it bears only a vague relationship to biological evolution and 2) is just another tool out of many tools, not the be-all-end-all that proponents want to present.

      --
      Taking stuff apart since 1969 (TM)
    4. Re:Slow moving by KieranElby · · Score: 2, Insightful
      If I read your post correctly, you are basically saying that evolution is often not a good method to use because humans can do better without it. I say, take a look at a whale, a swallow, a spider, a virus. Can human engineers do better than these self-replicating, self-healing machines that are perfectly optimised to their environments?
      Er, I think the point was that evolution is quite a slow process, especially if evaluating the fitness of a candidate solution takes a long time. A whale may indeed be optimised to it's environment rather better than a submarine, but the whale is the product of a evolutionary process that's taken 100s of millions of years ...
    5. Re:Slow moving by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
      Its a difference between artificial evolution and computer simulated evolution. What I meant was if it takes a lot of computing time to evaluate A SINGLE SOLUTION, simulated evolution is often not the correct problem solving technique . Imagine if you need a big population and several thounsand of generations to find an acceptable solution.. The GA itself with some crossovers and mutation, would only require a small fraction of computing time, compared to calculating the fitness of each solution.

      Natural evolution is different,- there are about 6 billion humans on this planet, and we are a result of a process lasting for several million years. Compare this with a computer simulated evolution, where you only have population sizes of about 100(!). So, the evolutionary process you find in nature is vastly more parallell.

      Then you got the problem of representation of the problem. We got far more cells in our body than genes. Its not a one-to-one translation from genes to actual cells. Currently, in genetic algorithm research, its popular to use a one-to-one representation. Imagine if the evolution had to reinvent a neural cell each time the cell is used in your brain? It would be a very very difficult search problem. Instead, real evolution use some sort of grammar, making it simple to duplicate usefull basic units.

    6. Re:Slow moving by pubjames · · Score: 1

      I think the point was that evolution is quite a slow process

      On a computer it can be done much quicker, and of course the speed at which it can be done depend on how you do it.

    7. Re:Slow moving by pubjames · · Score: 1

      So you're saying that the methods we use to do evolution on computers isn't good. I agree. That's why we need more research. But you seem to say "it's no good, so we can discount it as an option". I say "evolution is a powerful force which we don't really know how to harness yet."

    8. Re:Slow moving by Dr.+GeneMachine · · Score: 3, Insightful
      So you're saying that the methods we use to do evolution on computers isn't good. I agree. That's why we need more research.

      More research won't alleviate the fact that the evaluation of the fitness function is the critical point of every genetic/evolutionary optimization strategy. The fitness function has to be calculated for every individual in the population once in every generation. If this function is rather complex, it soon becomes the single most important factor determining the calculation cost of the algorithm.
      While in many cases genetic algorithms can be a very efficient method to sample a large phase space, there are other cases where the evaluation of the fitness function is simply to costly in terms of computation time. GAs can be very efficient, but they will never be a general solution for every optimization problem.

      --
      This comment does not exist.
    9. Re:Slow moving by ponxx · · Score: 1

      > In the case of GA, some people insist on using the technique as an argument advocating biological evolution

      How can you "advocate" biological evolution? That's like saying people researching meteorology are "advocating" fluid dynamics.

      People in GA might be trying to *imitate* biological evolution, which sounds like a good idea, seeing how evolution has created some of the most amazing machines and materials on earth.

    10. Re:Slow moving by hopews · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I believe by "advocating biological evolution", he means show evidence that evolution is the driving force behind the biosphere on earth. There are still many who contend that evolution is not sufficient to produce all of the creatures we share this rock with. To renouce this, some say that if digital evolution can make strange digital creatures suited to their digital ecosystems, evolution can do so in the world as well. I don't think its a very strong argument though.

    11. Re:Slow moving by Urban+Garlic · · Score: 1

      Maybe you can answer my perennial question about this -- it seems to me that genetic algorithms are conceptually straightforward, and that the really difficult/interesting part is how you map your "genome" to relevant parameters in your problem space. It's important that mutation and, especially, recombination should lead to "organisms" which really do resemble their "parents", otherwise you lose the whole power of the approach.

      I'm not active in the field, but I've read some books and papers on the topic, and all of them seem to laboriously describe the genetic process, and then give examples where a good genome-to-problem-space mapping is simply provided without further comment. Those results are then easy to reproduce, but what I want from a book about the technique is the ability to apply the technique to new problems.

      What I would very much like to see is the "Genetic Programming Coloring Book" or other simple reference that explains how to tackle this part of the problem.

      --
      2*3*3*3*3*11*251
    12. Re:Slow moving by Suidae · · Score: 1

      Can human engineers do better than these self-replicating, self-healing machines that are perfectly optimised to their environments?

      In a word, yes. But probably not without using evolution as a tool (at least not efficently).

      This is because 'better' means 'more suited to our purposes as humans'. While whales and spiders are cool, and we can learn much from their forms, they are 'designed' for surviving in particular environments, and thats it. They don't serve any purpose (nature has no intention, and so evolved forms have no purposeful utility, although they may have forms or functions that can be exploited).

      We can apply the tool of evolution with specific design goals, such that the results are 'better' than naturally evolved organisms.

    13. Re:Slow moving by pclminion · · Score: 1
      I say, take a look at a whale, a swallow, a spider, a virus. Can human engineers do better than these self-replicating, self-healing machines that are perfectly optimised to their environments?

      Yes. We can do WAY better.

      The problem with life, is that it is very dependant on its environment. Look at the massive damage we humans are causing to life on Earth through our (objectively small) changes to the environment. Change the average temperature by a few degrees, and poof, hundreds of species vanish.

      Yes, this is evolution in action. But it also demonstrates the extremely brittle quality of organisms which have evolved through natural selection.

      Now, consider an artifial "organism" that has been designed by humans. We can, with our intelligent brains, invent a design that is functional across a wide array of environments. It's conceivable that we can create a vehicle that can fly, drive on land, crawl up mountains, float on water, and submerge itself in the ocean. Can you possibly imagine nature coming up with something like that?

      No, intelligence always wins out over evolution. As intelligent beings, we have learned to take advantage of natural selection in the form of genetic algorithms, but there is nothing inherently superior, magical, or more correct about a GA than any other way of solving a problem.

    14. Re:Slow moving by pubjames · · Score: 1

      We can do WAY better.

      Have we ever made a self replicating machine? Have we even made a truely self repairing machine?

      No and no.

      In theory, we might be able to do better. But we haven't done yet, nor could we make such a machine today.

      Don't get me wrong, I think humans are great. But nature is fricking fantastic, and it will be a long time before we can better it.

    15. Re:Slow moving by PabloD · · Score: 1

      I have that problem with my research but solved it using several machines (about 20) in parallel to compute the fitness function. As hardware gets cheaper and cheaper such a solutions is getting more and more feasible.

    16. Re:Slow moving by xenocide2 · · Score: 1

      If this function is rather complex, it soon becomes the single most important factor determining the calculation cost of the algorithm.

      Not to mention, the fitness function is the basis for correctness. If the function is misleading, or if its broken under certain circumstances, then there's a good chance your genetic solution will result in something tailor made for the fitness function, bugs intact. As an example, my professor mentioned a robotic soccer competition with a bug that resulted in a high velocity movement of the kicking robot and the ball (I think if the ball was wedged between the bot and the wall). As a result, many genetic algorithms quickly learned to exploit this behavior, making real life solutions from this simulation problematic.

      --
      I Browse at +4 Flamebait

      Open Source Sysadmin

    17. Re:Slow moving by NoOneInParticular · · Score: 1
      Indeed, though Moore's law, combined with massively parallel hardware can make up for this. Evolutionary optimization is 'embarrasingly parallel', much unlike most other methods out there. Imagine a world in 10 years time with CPUs abiding Moore's law. Now imagine a beowulf cluster of these CPUs :). Now think of your heavy duty fitness function by today's standards running on such a machine. The problems with the complexity of the fitness function have dissappeared, simply because we can run it (a) faster, and (b) on many computers simultanuously.

      I've seen this happen: I entered the EC field in 1994, was involved in a nuclear plant optimization project in 1996 (nothing fancy, just a question of efficient stacking). Evaluation of a single solution took 30 seconds back then. I reran the experiment half a year ago: time was down to half a second per evaluation, due to both speed increase of the processor and better optimization of the simulation software. I ran it on a cluster: results were there in half an hour while our initial experiments took a couple of weeks. It would be interesting to see what speed it runs 8 years from now, but I bet that what was barely feasible 8 years ago, and is reasonably tough now, is going to be a breeze a few years from now.

      John Koza, from genetic programming fame, performs electrical circuit design. The simulator he uses, SPICE, takes quite a bit time to run. A few years ago Koza got himself a 1000 pentium cluster to run the experiments. Evaluation is run in parallel. He gets things done, even though every evaluation takes around 10 seconds. By today's standards, he could get the same computation power with 250 machines, or four times that power at the same cost. Remember that this power still does not even come close to the raw processing power of a human brain.

    18. Re:Slow moving by Pooua · · Score: 1
      How can you "advocate" biological evolution?

      - Claim that "evolution has created some of the most amazing machines and materials on earth."

      - Claim that evolution is a fact.

      - Pour millions of dollars in tax money into required classes that teach that evolution is a fact.

      - Name a computerized method of selection and optimization with a name that implies or suggests that it is similar to biological evolution.

      That's like saying people researching meteorology are "advocating" fluid dynamics.

      A better analogy would be that it is like saying that Atlantis arouse from purely random and natural forces.

      People in GA might be trying to *imitate* biological evolution, which sounds like a good idea, seeing how evolution has created some of the most amazing machines and materials on earth.

      That's the theory, anyway. No one has actually seen it, of course. No one can reproduce it, either. The reputed evolution of life on Earth is an unrepeatable, largely-unobservable, theoretical progression. What's more, some things that people expect on the basis of the theory are wildly absurd, such as the idea that the Internet is about to become self-conscious, once it reaches the critical mass of network connections equal to those of the human brain. Such weird ideas severely discount the need for intelligent design to produce practical results. Even GA requires careful selection of parameters and testing procedures--that is GA would hardly work at all if there were not intelligent design applied to it. Yet, people who are disciples of biological evolution are happy to pretend that purely random forces and natural selection produce increasingly optimized results, better (or, at least, more efficiently) than could be produced by any other process.

      --
      Taking stuff apart since 1969 (TM)
    19. Re:Slow moving by ponxx · · Score: 1

      It's more of an illustration. Anyway, I would have thought that the computer scientist were hoping that the analogy with the real world would convince people their algorithms are a good idea, rather than the other way round!

      I can't see how anyone with even a small insight into biochemistry can doubt the biodiversity on earth came about through evolution...

    20. Re:Slow moving by ponxx · · Score: 1

      > - Claim that "evolution has created some of the most amazing
      > machines and materials on earth."

      You find me an engineer that can build a robot the size and weight of a spider that can navigate a forest autonomously. Of course you might have different ideas of what is "amazing" but it's pretty clear that evolution has created somethings humans have not yet been able to copy.

      > - Claim that evolution is a fact.

      It's a process, not a fact. This process is responsible for the biodiversity on earth, that is a fact.

      > - Pour millions of dollars in tax money into required classes
      > that teach that evolution is a fact.

      I think it would be very foolish to stop teaching biology at a time when Biochemistry becomes more and more important commercially.

      > - Name a computerized method of selection and optimization with a name that implies or
      > suggests that it is similar to biological evolution.

      These algorithms are using some evolutionary strategies, so i think it's quite an apt name...

    21. Re:Slow moving by Dick+Faze · · Score: 1
      Look at the massive damage we humans are causing to life on Earth through our (objectively small) changes to the environment. Change the average temperature by a few degrees, and poof, hundreds of species vanish.

      The second sentence is not a logical conclusion from the first. There is still no proof that the average temperature would not have risen gradually over the past 100 years if there were no humans at all. I can't wait for a few consecutive cool years so people like you will be worrying about another ice age like you did in the 70's.

    22. Re:Slow moving by pclminion · · Score: 1
      There is still no proof that the average temperature would not have risen gradually over the past 100 years if there were no humans at all.

      Absolutely correct. But whether natural or man-made, a temperature change of even a few degrees will extinct hundreds of species.

      I wasn't trying to make an environmental point, merely using it as an argument to demonstrate the chaotic behavior of complex systems like the Earth.

      I can't wait for a few consecutive cool years so people like you [...]

      People like me? I think you've jumped to conclusions here. You don't know anything about my opinions on the matter.

    23. Re:Slow moving by Cybrr · · Score: 1

      It's conceivable that we can create a vehicle that can fly, drive on land, crawl up mountains, float on water, and submerge itself in the ocean. Can you possibly imagine nature coming up with something like that?

      Humans.

      --
      Why did GEAR crush RDP?
  12. Breeding cars... by pyrrhonist · · Score: 5, Funny
    If you're like me, you're probably wondering how they breed cars.
    After careful research, I found a visual aid that helps clear up the mystery.

    **WARNING** Do not view at work (if you are a mechanic). It's a truckse.cx link.

    --
    Show me on the doll where his noodly appendage touched you.
    1. Re:Breeding cars... by naden · · Score: 3, Funny

      **WARNING** Do not view at work (if you are a mechanic). It's a truckse.cx link.

      IANAM but I'm sure this is a better source of truck pr0n.

      --
      Funtage Factor: Purple
    2. Re:Breeding cars... by pyrrhonist · · Score: 1
      IANAM but I'm sure this is a better source of truck pr0n.

      My post was purely in the interest of science, but what you...
      What you posted is just...

      S I C K !!!
      ;)
      --
      Show me on the doll where his noodly appendage touched you.
  13. From the mouth of one in Formula SAE by Peden · · Score: 5, Informative

    As a member of a raceteam which is about to enter the formula SAE competition. (A global university based competition aimed at building the fastest racecar) I find that 68 parameters are not nearly enough. Modern racecars have that many in the suspension alone. And all those phony calculation with determination of how many seconds are spared cannot be used for anything concrete.

    1. Re:From the mouth of one in Formula SAE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you started building your race car, did you think of how many bolts you needed, did you start modelling airflow surfaces immediately? Of course not - you first started with the basics, and refined them. So, it's a good bet that this will be refined and eventually, they have a lot more parameters.

    2. Re:From the mouth of one in Formula SAE by Coyote · · Score: 1

      Yes, even driving a less sophisticated sprint car on a dirt track, I counted roughly that many parameters just in the suspension.

      And, as others commented, 68 is a start. Next they can add the proper weights to parameters for yellow flags; 0 for clear track. 1 for stationary yellow. 2 for yellow flag being waved frantically. And of course, add 4 for a long black stripe of oil on the line.

      I also find it curious that they want to start in F1, a series that has already banned computer controlled suspension. I'm sure Bernie would be very receptive to even more computer control. Maybe they ought to take a tip from drivers who begin their racing career in karts and start with a slower simpler platform.

      --
      My metamoderation cancels your moderation
  14. Re:What about the driver? Is he tunable too? by Zog+The+Undeniable · · Score: 2, Funny

    You've never watched a certain M Schumacher, obviously. The guy is a robot.

    --
    When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
  15. Difference between simulation and reality by Minimind · · Score: 5, Insightful
    There is a large difference in evolved behaviour between physical things and models of those same things. GAs using physics simulators are very good at exploiting inaccuracies and subtle features of the simulation, making the transfer between the simulation to reality very difficult without the use of specialised techniques such as Minimal Simulations and Incremental Evolution.

    This means you have to be skeptical with experiments performed just in simulation without testing the same model in reality.

    1. Re:Difference between simulation and reality by pubjames · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There is a large difference in evolved behaviour between physical things and models of those same things.

      Surely that just means your physical model of the real world is not correct?

    2. Re:Difference between simulation and reality by Pooua · · Score: 1, Funny
      Surely that just means your physical model of the real world is not correct?

      I can't believe that such a comment would apply to an "Electronic Arts" video game...

      --
      Taking stuff apart since 1969 (TM)
    3. Re:Difference between simulation and reality by Minimind · · Score: 1
      Yes, that's right. No model of the physical world is 'correct', although some may be more so than others.

      Building robots or complex physical things whose attributes were evolved in a physics simulation such that their behaviour is more or less the same (the 'reality-transfer' problem) is difficult and an active area of research in evolutionary robotics.

    4. Re:Difference between simulation and reality by pclminion · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Surely that just means your physical model of the real world is not correct?

      Whether it's correct or not is irrelevant, if the machine you are using to do the simulation cannot carry out the calculations with sufficient precision to avoid exponentially diverging from reality (otherwise known as "chaos").

      Perfectly simulating reality is impossible. This statement has not been proven, but I firmly believe it, along with a multitude of other people who are quite adept at simulation methods.

      Hence, the original poster's comment still applies: A GA will quickly learn to exploit the mathematical oddities inherent in the imperfect physical simulation to its advantage. This makes the "solutions" very unfit for survival in the real world, which does not possess these simulated quirks.

      As an example, I remember reading some research where they were using a "manual GA" to optimize a certain oscillator circuit. They arrived at an extremely good solution, which was a very stable, pure frequency oscillator. However, when they took the circuit to a new location and ran it again, the performance was terrible. It turned out that the circuit had been optimized to take advantage of some peculiar radio frequency signal that was being generated by another piece of equipment in the lab. Without this external signal, the circuit did not function correctly.

      This is very typical of genetic algorithms. They "learn" to take advantage of local oddities in the simulation environment.

  16. mod parent up by rritterson · · Score: 1

    root post is made irrelevant by the math error corrected in the reply.

    --
    -Ryan
    AUWYHSTOT (Acronyms are Useless When You Have to Spell Them Out Too)
  17. Re:What about the driver? Is he tunable too? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    " Yes, it's cool that they applied genetic algorithms to the car, but I think that the advantage is so slim that you'd be better off getting a better driver than paying to see exactly what you should set the 68 parameters to."

    But if you allready have a realistic computer model of the car, using a genetic algorithm would be very cheap. I dont see why you couldnt both get a better driver, and using a GA for the parameter model. After all, the design team probably play around with the parameters manually.

    Anyway, tracking the effect of 68 parameters can be very kinda. So I guess thats the reason they went with GA instead of using simulated annealing ( a population of candidate solutions),- a technique better fitted for problems with a low number of parameters (only one candidate solution).

  18. Re:how to do it part 2 by zmollusc · · Score: 1, Informative

    Alternatively, you can get a nitrous oxide kit fitted. BIG power increase for those rare occasions when you need it( zooming away from lights to impress girls )and stock engine for the rest of the time.

    --
    They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
  19. Re:What about the driver? Is he tunable too? by ralphus · · Score: 3, Informative

    The advantage is not slim in Formula One. They are routinely fighting for single hundredths of a second. Official timing is down to the hundredth and there was actually one race where 3 cars qualified with the same time down to the hundredth.

    --
    Revolutions are never about freedom or justice. They're about who's going to be top dog. -- Kilgore Trout
  20. Re:What about the driver? Is he tunable too? by Motherfucking+Shit · · Score: 4, Informative
    88/100 of a second? as in .0088 seconds? I'm sure the typical driver will keep his foot on the brake on the same turn with a variance of more than plus/minus .0088 seconds each lap. Assuming a 500 lap race, the car would finish 4.4 seconds faster. One bad pitstop erases that advantage.
    I'll give previous respondents credit for clarifying that 88/100 of a second is .88 seconds, or statistically slightly better than three quarters of one second.

    All that aside, do you watch NASCAR much? I'm not what you'd call a NASCAR junkie, but I do watch at least every other race. Tenths of a second in lap times are frequently the determining factor between pole and, say, 10th qualifier. Races are often decided on margins approaching less than one second.

    All that said, yes, one bad pit stop can and does ruin a race. So does one unseen oil slick. Kasey Kahne should have won Dover, period. The officials were loathe to call a caution so late in the race, after so many cautions had already been called, and cost Kasey his first win.

    Sucks.

    And tenths of a second did it.
    --
    "BSD: Free as in speech. Linux: Free as in beer. Windows 10: Free as in herpes." --Man On Pink Corner in #52607549.
  21. Remember Italian Grand Prix 1971 by tomrud · · Score: 3, Informative

    The to five finished i i the same second.

    1: Pether Gethin 1:18:12.60
    2: Ronnie Petterson +0.01s
    3: Francois Cevert +0.09s
    4: Mike Hailwood +0.18s
    5: Howden Ganley, +0.61s

    See http://www.formula1.com/archive/grandprix/1971/522 .html
    for complete results.

    --
    For a nice date: Call strftime(3C)!
  22. Re:What about the driver? Is he tunable too? by paul's+ponderinngs · · Score: 2, Informative

    F1 is only an absolute maximum of 200 miles or 2 hours, whichever is first. Most races are about 190 miles or 60 - 80 laps.

  23. Differential evolution by 12357bd · · Score: 2, Interesting

    One of the classical algorithms to do genetic evolution using floating point values (not bits) as parameters, is Differential evolution.

    --
    What's in a sig?
    1. Re:Differential evolution by NoOneInParticular · · Score: 1

      DE is hardly classic, considering that Evolution Strategies (working with floats) have their roots in the early sixties, developed before the bitstring Genetic Algorithm.

    2. Re:Differential evolution by 12357bd · · Score: 1

      Yep!, you'r right, DE (differential evolution) is not that old (just 10 years or so) , DE is a 'classical' (used very often) genetic programming algorithm when gene values are floating point values.

      --
      What's in a sig?
  24. GA example, by noselasd · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Reminds me, I made this,
    which is some very simple code for the uninitated to genetic algorithms.

    1. Re:GA example, by Tongo · · Score: 1

      This was pretty interesting, but I damned near laughed out load when I read this:

      which means the genes amon the population vary very little, we aggresivly mutate alot of the citizens.

      I wonder if the government is interested in "aggresivly mutating" the populace.

    2. Re:GA example, by noselasd · · Score: 1

      Yup, we go the oposite directions of various not-so-good regimes which tries(tried) to produce perfect citizens. Genetic variation is good
      according to darwinism, as there is a greater chance of survival
      of the fittest.

  25. Human competitive problem solving by NoOneInParticular · · Score: 4, Informative
    Next Genetic and Evolutionary Computation COnference in Seattle starting next week will have a special session focussed on Human Competitive Results obtained with evolutionary algorithms. In recent years, a number of results have been obtained with evolutionary computation that equal or exceed the performance of dedicated individuals applying itself to the task. One I saw recently is that with genetic programming a satellite antenna was designed that hopefully will gets its launch next January. Genetic Programming is also used to create quantum programs, a task humans have great difficulty with. There are a number of such results.

    Interestingly enough, Peter Bentley's group results on car racing would not be considered human competitive, unless the results obtained in the simulation will be tried in the real world, or if the simulator is something experts actually use to shave of seconds. In any case, it seems the Evolutionary Computation world is starting to obtain very strong results, for a part due to Moore's law. It's possible that this is caused by the fact that the field simply tries to solve things, instead of first proving that it works (AI/ML), or proving that it doesn't work (Operations Research).

    1. Re:Human competitive problem solving by 12357bd · · Score: 1

      It's possible that this is caused by the fact that the field simply tries to solve things, instead of first proving that it works (AI/ML), or proving that it doesn't work (Operations Research).

      As someone said: "if it works is not AI anymore." :)

      Seriously, I think the 'Frankenstein syndrome' has already damaged enought AI research.

      --
      What's in a sig?
  26. I agree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Kasey Kane should have won Dover and if he didn't, Jeremy Mayfield should have won. But Jeremy got caught up in a 18 car wreck. Evernham had a bittersweet day, it should have been a win for Dodge. Just another bad Nascar decision, what else is new. Nascar officials have been screwing everything up lately as long as it favors Junior.

  27. Genetic Algorithms, Rat Bags and Cheetahs. by falsemover · · Score: 5, Informative

    Ok, having done a lot of work in Genetic Algorithms here is the elevator pitch.

    A genetic algorithm is an algorithm that manipulates encoded problem solutions using a population of potential solutions. Each solution, or population member, in this case, is a set of racing car parameters. The genetic algorithm selects a couple of solutions and recombines parts of each to produce two new solutions using a recombination operator. Mutuation is normally added as well. The two new solutions are then "measured" for fitness; in the racing scenario a full scale simulation of the actual car is carried out. This produces a single value of fitness that is associated with the newly generated member.

    The algorithm proceeds by selecting a couple of candidate parents; normally with random bias weighted toward fitter parents. The parents mate, new chidren produced, the children are measured, then integrated back into the population and they cycle continues.

    The end result of all of this is that small "above average" solution components "accumulate" in the population at an exponential rate as time goes on. Of course, this only happens early in the first few generations before high "saturation" / convergence levels are reached. This is kind of cool because something good is happening at an exponential rate as time goes on; this is very useful when trying to solve problems with vast state spaces; eg the problem of finding a good racing car model where you need strong brew to find a resonable solution. Later on, most of the population members can often encode very fit solutions. This mathematical property (exponential accumulation) explains why the genetic algorithm is the algorithm of choice in nature, and also why an alarming proportion of PhD students are now studying genetic algorithms. This technique isn't new either, as Ratbag games have been using these techniques and other cool machine learning techniques for years to evolve the AI on their car titles such as "Dirt Track Racing" and "Powerslide".

    Of course, we already know that this stuff works; as a quick trip to the zoo will show you what evolution has done to optimize the cheetah.

    This is a very simplified view; there are a bunch of design issues such as encoding, premature convergence, crossover (recomination), reproduction methods, method of generation, population sizing, operator adaptation that make this whole field very interesting and addictive. Having written a dozen genetic algorithms and solved many many problem types using GAs they never cease to suprise me how powerful these methods are.

    --
    consider coffee a lubricant that helps one penetrate the coding zone
    1. Re:Genetic Algorithms, Rat Bags and Cheetahs. by 12357bd · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Having written a dozen genetic algorithms and solved many many problem types using GAs they never cease to suprise me how powerful these methods are.

      I work in this field too:
      I remember some years ago, talking with a coleage, about neural networks, I told him that i was using genetic algorithms for a) select suitable initial conexion values, and b) help to scape local minima.
      He as surprised that both methods could succesfully cooperate. :)

      --
      What's in a sig?
    2. Re:Genetic Algorithms, Rat Bags and Cheetahs. by pclminion · · Score: 1
      This mathematical property (exponential accumulation) explains why the genetic algorithm is the algorithm of choice in nature

      What a misguided statement. Nature is not self-aware and it does not make "choices." There was not some moment in the past where the universe decided, "Hey, I'm going to implement evolution, because that's the best algorithm for creating life."

      Evolution is a tautology. It essentially states, "Those individuals who survive, are the ones who survive." Really, that's all it boils down to. Yet you imply that evolution is somehow the "best" algorithm, when in fact, it's a logical inevitability. It is inevitable that the individuals who are best at surviving in their environment will be the ones who reproduce. This is an inarguable, tautological statement.

      I don't see why you find anything at all surprising or mysterious about natural selection. "That which survives, survives. That which dies, dies." Really, who would'a thunkit?

    3. Re:Genetic Algorithms, Rat Bags and Cheetahs. by jeremyp · · Score: 1
      Of course, we already know that this stuff works; as a quick trip to the zoo will show you what evolution has done to optimize the cheetah.
      After several million years, the best that nature has come up with can do about 70 mph for short periods. Human rally cars can sustain higher speeds for longer over the same terrain.

      There are many cases were evolution has led to sub-optimal "designs" (the connection of the retina to the optic nerve in the human eye being one that springs to mind).

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    4. Re:Genetic Algorithms, Rat Bags and Cheetahs. by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      Human rally cars can sustain higher speeds for longer over the same terrain.

      But the Cheetah contains its own power source. Do rally cars hunt oil and refine it themselves?

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    5. Re:Genetic Algorithms, Rat Bags and Cheetahs. by NoOneInParticular · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Interesting way to paraphrase it, but unfortunately hopelessly wrong. Natural selection is not about what survives, that is totally irrelevant. What reproduces is what it's about. There's still a tautology lurking there, granted: the one that reproduces best will have the most offspring. Still, also this needs some extra qualification. Reproduction alone is not enough: the children themselves need to be able to reproduce, otherwise reproduction is again a dead end street (creating only sterile offspring will not go far). So now we are at the definition of lifetime fecundity: the organism that gets most offspring that reach sexually (or reproductionally) mature age will take over. Only here the exponential starts taking off, and it has a less tautological ring to it.

      Darwin himself went to great length in his Origin to explain the existence of ants. Having the majority of the population as sterile workers seems to contradict the theory of natural selection. Tautologies cannot be contradicted by evidence, yet ants seem to contradict natural selection. Maybe it's a theory and not a tautology? Darwin found an elegant way out of this by explaining that even though the ants themselves do not reproduce, they do create the environment in which their nieces (future queens) can.

      Natural selection is not a tautology. When a few baseline ingredients are there it 'just happens'. Once these ingredients are absent, it doesn't. Some interesting experiments with self-replicators have been performed that identified that for natural selection to take off, initial diversity needs to be there. If not, the first replicator, for a large part irrespective of how inefficient it is, will take over the world. This you can call 'Survival of the firstest'. Also experiments have performed where a diverse set of self-replicators are competing: there you will see 'Survival of the fastest', i.e., the fastest self-replicator wins. Both phenomenon do not point at the open-endedness of evolution as we see in nature. Survival of the first would preclude evolution; survival of the fastest would preclude the existence of complex beings like mammals. For a tautology, it seems to be awfully hard to implement. In effect: even at this point it is unclear how to make open-ended, self-diversifying evolution work. Genetic algorithms are too simple to do that, and even a system like Tierra stopped at some point.

      What genetic algorithms do is indeed mimic the exponential growth that is present in the definition of lifetime fecundity; that is what makes the thing perform different from random search. Above average performing individuals will receive more offspring. If and only if this offspring is above average performing, the exponential will take off and the genetic material will take over the resources. Note that both the parents and the offspring need to be fit, implying that also the reproduction mechanism itself needs to be sensible. This is what most EC research is about. It is hardly tautological, but an interesting way to search. Truly open-endedness is not there in the algorithm, and in effect, using lots of degrees of freedom in representational flexibility usually doesn't pay off in solving a single problem. Still, it's one hell of an optimizer: there's no necessity that the fitness (cost) function is continuous, let alone differentiable; it's 'embarassingly parallel', meaning it can run at a highly parallel machine without any significant overhead (linear scaling), and simply performs well for an astonishing range of applications.

    6. Re:Genetic Algorithms, Rat Bags and Cheetahs. by Zirnike · · Score: 1
      "here is the elevator pitch"

      Goddess... Remind me not to get onto a elevator with you.

      --
      I'm not shy, I'm stalking my prey
    7. Re:Genetic Algorithms, Rat Bags and Cheetahs. by Dick+Faze · · Score: 1

      Rally cars contain their own power source, an engine. Oil/Gasoline is acquired externally. Do Cheetahs breed their own food? No, they go somewhere and get it, just like Rally cars.

  28. what it shows ... by curator_thew · · Score: 5, Insightful


    Is that genetic algorithms are nice for parametric optimisation, but not for breakthrough innovation.

    1. Re:what it shows ... by 12357bd · · Score: 1

      Maybe that's because programming is so hard that we are still unable to do and even often imagine 'adaptative' software...

      Imagine the day your computer talks (jokes on), do you want-it to talk to you like a record?

      --
      What's in a sig?
    2. Re:what it shows ... by tkw954 · · Score: 1
      what it shows is that genetic algorithms are nice for parametric optimisation, but not for breakthrough innovation.

      This is true for every optimization method. If you allow the algorithm to "innovate" all you are doing is adding more dimensions to the parameter space.

  29. Shallow Article by Pooua · · Score: 0
    The "Wired" article is just a breathless piece of evolution worship, lacking useful, critical or practical information. This is particularly apparent in the paragraph that states,

    "Using this sort of programmed procreation, the Digital Biology Interest Group has made self-healing battlefield surveillance robots -- gadgets that look like robotic snakes that can figure out how to wiggle home even when severely damaged, unlike less-evolved robots that typically just give up when one of their critical components goes out of commission."

    It is tempting to conclude from that paragraph that, somehow, the "life force" of real snakes was transferred to machines via the power of evolution, as if GA could make a machine live. Indeed, the paragraph makes it sound like no other design method could have arrived at that solution, that there is something almost magical about GA.

    --
    Taking stuff apart since 1969 (TM)
    1. Re:Shallow Article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I get nothing of the sort. I understand that they've made these little robotic snakes that can wiggle home, when other robots would give up.

      I get nothing about life force of real snakes, nothing about machines living. The parent makes it sound like they were attempting to create life, rather than a solution to a rather complex problem.

    2. Re:Shallow Article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is tempting to conclude from that paragraph that, somehow, the "life force" of real snakes was transferred to machines via the power of evolution, as if GA could make a machine live. Indeed, the paragraph makes it sound like no other design method could have arrived at that solution, that there is something almost magical about GA. Who the hell would interpret it that way? Not me or anyone I know. If you are suggesting some kind of hidden agenda, I think the finger is pointed at the wrong direction.

    3. Re:Shallow Article by pclminion · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Wow. Tell us, what've you been smoking today? Something highly evolved, I hope!

    4. Re:Shallow Article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    5. Re:Shallow Article by Pooua · · Score: 1
      The parent makes it sound like they were attempting to create life, rather than a solution to a rather complex problem.

      All right, then tell me why the article specifically distinguished between the robotic snakes that could return home after heavy damage, verses those that could not, entirely on the basis that the more robust snakes were designed through GA? The article does not see any other method that has produced such robust robotics.

      --
      Taking stuff apart since 1969 (TM)
    6. Re:Shallow Article by Pooua · · Score: 1
      This from the same guy who thinks that evolution isn't science ...

      At least I have the guts to sign my name to my comments, unlike you, Coward. You not only don't supply your name, you fail to supply a reason. Instead, you simply mock what you are too stupid to understand.

      --
      Taking stuff apart since 1969 (TM)
  30. mod parent up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Posts that ask you to mod a parent up are just so informative that I feel the parent post should be modded up.

  31. Human Error by (eternal_software) · · Score: 1, Interesting

    88/100th of a second per lap?

    Isn't that well within the margin of error that the human drivers would introduce? If the driver takes a turn slightly off of the most optimized route, wouldn't that negate the fraction of a second these algorithms are providing?

    1. Re:Human Error by Johan+Veenstra · · Score: 4, Interesting

      - 0.88 seconds is not well within the margin of error that the human drivers would introduce.

      - If you would put all 20 current f1 drivers in exactly the same car, 15 of them would qualify within 0.5 of a second.

      - 0.88 seconds advantage every 73 laps (Indianapolis) would accumulate to 64,24 seconds (almost a lap).

    2. Re:Human Error by achurch · · Score: 3, Insightful

      88/100th of a second per lap? Isn't that well within the margin of error that the human drivers would introduce?

      Yes, but that doesn't negate its value (assuming the measurement is viable on the physical racetrack and not just in simulations). If you have a normal die A with sides labeled from 1 to 6 and another die B with sides labeled from 2 to 7, then there will certainly be rolls where A is higher than B, but on average, B will roll higher than A. In racing, this would translate to a slightly greater chance of winning--and while that may not be a breakthrough improvement, it's certainly better than none at all.

    3. Re:Human Error by flewp · · Score: 1

      What caught my eye about the article right away was the fact that they say 150 MPH. An F1 car is capable of 220 on some of the current tracks, and will go well over 150 on any of the tracks on the current schedule.

      --
      WWJD.... for a Klondike bar?
    4. Re:Human Error by TomV · · Score: 1

      It depends if they're referring to maximum speed, in which case 220 is about right for a car about to brake at the end of the banking at Indianapolis, or average speed across a lap, in which case they're about right - the fastest lap to date, if I'm not very much mistaken, which I frequently am (ob-Murray Walker Tribute), Montoya's pole time of 1:20.264 at Monza in 2002, the fastest ever lap in F1, represented an average speed of 161.170 mph.

      At Monaco, while the cars reach about 180mph just before the Nouvelle Chicane after the tunnel, Trulli's pole this year of 1:14.439 works out at 'only' 100.989mph. They said "on a curvy track" and it doesn't come any twistier than Monaco.

    5. Re:Human Error by baadfood · · Score: 1

      Um, no. Even the worst F1 drivers can routinely put in lap after lap within 0.10 seconds of each other.

  32. Genetic algorithms for Slashdot by PorscheDriver · · Score: 1
    Hey Slashdot team! How about writing a genetic algorithm which detects Duplicate stories? :)

    (I'd patent this idea, but you can have it /.)

    --
    "This is your life, and it's ending one second at a time."
  33. Re:how to do it part 2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    you can get a nitrous oxide kit fitted. BIG power increase for those rare occasions when you need it( zooming away from lights to impress girls )

    Trust me, girls can indeed be impressed with BIG increases, but they don't care about cars. I've never heard of anyone needing a nitrous oxide kit fitted though, there are pills available if you can't produce enough on your own.

  34. The right sales pitch by Analogy+Man · · Score: 1
    Education can be a powerful tool to sell an idea.

    Rather than getting into the metaphor of genetic algorithms and biology...get practical.

    Show how a gradient method is limited when you have distinct options (fastener sizes, commodity components etc).

    Show how your product has a complex design space (assuming it does and genetic algorithms are necessary versus gradient methods). If your simulations are not too expensive, map out the design space on two of the variables (payoff function as versus 2 variables).

    Eliminate the political or "religious" arguement and prove how the optimum found with GA is X% better then the solution found with other methods. And X% is worth $$$'s.

    --
    When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
    1. Re:The right sales pitch by zCyl · · Score: 1

      Or, in summary: Genetic algorithms can yield solutions that are smarter than a human alone staring at the problem will think of.

      In other words, it's a problem solving tool that makes our solutions better. That alone is its singular selling point. The only other detail is explaining which classes of problems it is useful for, and giving examples of where it has worked (to show that it's not just theory).

  35. Genetic Racing by Moblaster · · Score: 5, Funny

    Genetic Racing sounds great in theory, but wait until the first inbred cars come out. You know, they start all scientific with that Formula 1, but when it works its way deep inside the country with NASCAR... oh, my hominy grits... those Republicans are gonna want to force us to race whatever comes out of the oven.

    1. Re:Genetic Racing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "but wait until the first inbred cars come out."

      Then they'll be just like the drivers :P

  36. 750/1000 GUARANTEED by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Zen is certainly the mystical function of the equation. Unfortunately, it is one we engineers find difficult to address.

    In my many years of study (I go almost all the way back to Prolifferro Nuvolari), the theme of the driver as a closed loop has been my frame of reference. At speed the human body supplies an enormous amount of sensory data from vibration, centrifugal force acting upon the entire body, visual, auditory, data from the parts of the body in direct contact with the car, etc. etc.

    That data combines within the nervous system and results in a tremendously complex firing of nerves that initiate hundreds of thousands of muscle twitches and jerks that, when applied to the controls of the car, make it go around. I know this sounds complex but when you realize we are dealing with thousandths of a second per lap, you'll see what I mean.

    "There must be a better way", I always said to my self. Then one hot summer day, while eating a Creamcicle, it came to me. "The parts of the body in direct contact with the car" !! Carumba!!! Why didn't I think of it before ?? And, which part of the body has the greatest surface area that contacts the car ?? It was as plain as the nose on your face.

    You will appreciate the need for working in secrecy these last few years. But, since you brought it up, now it can be told. If I could come to you as a race car driver and say, "How would you like to have 750 ONE THOUSANDTHS of a second per lap, guaranteed, money back, for only $89.95." What do you think you'd say ? Think of it. That's 562,000 one thousandths in the Sunbank 24 hours or almost 10 minutes !!

    It took several years to develop and test my theory. My methods shall go with me to the grave. I was able to ascertain that there is a direct correlation between the sensitivity of a race car drivers Glutinous Maximus and his standings in his respective series. Then the question became, "How to neutralize this God given "Unfair Advantage" ?? How to give those less well endowed by their makers a boost up, so to speak, in this department ?? It was an ergonometrict engineering tour de force.

    Sometimes the old ideas are best. Do you remember the old "Union Suit" ? With the trap door ? My Company has developed (with clever use of Velcro and tiny Japanese electric motors) the "Tenth of a Second" driver's suit. We advertise 750/1000 but
    actually deliver a full tenth.

    The device is simplicity itself. When the driver squirms down into the car, our unit pulls away all 3 layers of cloth rolling them neatly into an out of the way pouch. This puts the actual skin of the driver's Ass in direct contact with the Kevlar of the car seat. When the driver pulls himself up out of the car, the device modestly reverses, the result being seamless and unobtrusive. A special crash sensor activates the device in that eventuality, preventing possible burns. There is a separate manual control which has been redesigned after the embarrassing incident in Victory Circle at one of our test locations.

    When we first approached drivers to test our prototypes, the reaction was cautiously positive and even a bit skeptical. After using the product all but one drive was enthusiastic. The usual response was, "Where can I get me one of these ?"

    In this our first season, a certain few select drivers will be using our device in select races. For those of you interested from a scientific viewpoint I will be able to Email, at your request, car #s and races 5 days before each event. For those drivers who are constantly mobbed by hordes of beautiful women, the location of the manual button is being kept secret.

    1. Re:750/1000 GUARANTEED by xphread · · Score: 0
      Glutinous Maximus

      Mmmmm... chewy :)

  37. Formula one less close than NASCAR by Goonie · · Score: 1
    There's a lot bigger gap in the performance of cars in F1 than there is in stock car racing. The rules of F1 are a lot less restrictive in what you can do to the cars, and so there's a lot more room for the teams with the bigger budgets to make the cars faster. In addition, F1 cars and circuits are just plain harder to drive, so the difference between drivers is shown up more brutally.

    In race mode, there is of course another factor: where the aerodynamics of NASCAR give the advantage to a closely following car, the aerodynamics in F1 give the advantage to the car in front. Yes, this makes for awfully boring racing, but that's never bothered F1 fans who find it exciting to get a short glimpse of a red blur going past every couple of minutes... :)

    --

    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
    --Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
    1. Re:Formula one less close than NASCAR by flewp · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not only is there the performance gap in F1, but compared to Nascar, there's very little following of a safety (aka pace) car. This Sunday was the exception at Indy though. The tracks themselves have a lot of run off area (with the exception of Monaco), so usually when a car crashes, it's off track, or quickly removed from the track. In Nascar, if there's a crash, out comes the pace car, and the cars all bunch up again. Also, again, track design sometimes makes it very difficult to pass in F1, so a faster might get held up by a slower car for a few laps.

      And actually, on average, you're going to see a red blur every 45 seconds or so, and I love it :) (Long time Ferrari fan, so I'm just loving the current domination of them rather than McLaren and Williams destroying the field. But such is F1, and another team will dominate eventually, and the cycle will continue.

      --
      WWJD.... for a Klondike bar?
    2. Re:Formula one less close than NASCAR by dodongo · · Score: 1

      Hey now, Ferarri has lost (once) this year (in nine races).

      Glad I didn't pay to get in at Indy again. I was there last when Kimi was driving for Sauber and made it like four laps or something.

      Mika Hakkinen won, though, so that was nice. I've seen enough of Schumi winning on TV that seeing it in person would be a bit of a letdown, I imagine ;)

      And responding to a tangential thread, when is Kasey Kahne going to get his first win and his "most adorable rookie" award? :-P Sheesh, the kid's hungry.

  38. Re:What about the driver? Is he tunable too? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Formula 1 timing is down to the thousandth of a second and there have been occasions when the difference between pole position and second on the grid has been 0.000 seconds, (in which case the first person to set the time gets the pole).

  39. Re:What about the driver? Is he tunable too? by Snefru2 · · Score: 1

    Make sure you never test your optimized system using the model you used to optimize it. If you do, your optimized system always wins. If it doesn't win under these circumstances, you've used a bad optimization technique.

  40. Not very practical... by Goonie · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I've seen this story floating round, and colour me unimpressed.

    Genetic algorithms are terribly clever, and are useful for many purposes, but to make them work you need a "fitness function" - the ability to check how good a solution is. And, seeing you're going to need to apply it to every member of the population in each generation, it better be pretty bloody low-overhead, and be a pretty close approximation of the real-world fitness of a solution. In fact, in my admittedly limited experience with them I found that 99.9% of the difficulty in applying genetic algorithms to a problem is finding an appropriate fitness function.

    The fitness function these guys have used is to use a racing simulation game and run the race electronically. That's good if you're trying to set up a car to win that game, but if you're actually trying to win a real car race with a real car, if the only fitness function you have is sending your driver out for a few million trial laps it's just not going to cut it.

    If, on the other hand, they had built software that allowed them to specify the car settings and tell them what lap time the car would achieve, that would be really impressive, and then you could bolt on the GA optmizer to find the killer setup. But using GA's like they have done is just a party trick - cute, but not that impressive.

    --

    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
    --Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
    1. Re:Not very practical... by mikera · · Score: 1

      I agree they aren't going to get very close to a perfect fitness function.

      But what this kind of technique could be really great for is in-race optimisation. Can't decide whether the come in for a pit stop this lap or the next? Let the GA run a few hundred thousand simulations of the possible ways the race will progress and get a probablity weighted average of the payoffs from each strategy, taking into account current race position, likely pit-stop times, track condition etc.

    2. Re:Not very practical... by pclminion · · Score: 3, Informative
      That's good if you're trying to set up a car to win that game, but if you're actually trying to win a real car race with a real car, if the only fitness function you have is sending your driver out for a few million trial laps it's just not going to cut it.

      That's why for problems with very expensive fitness functions, it's often better to use a simulated annealing technique. In SA, there is only one individual, not a whole population, so you only have to evaluate fitness once per iteration instead of potentially hundreds or thousands of times.

      Simulated annealing works like this: make a random (or in some implementations, a heuristically guided) change to the current individual. Evaluate the new fitness. If the change has improved the fitness, accept the change. Otherwise, choose at random whether to accept the change, with the chance of acceptance slowly decreasing over time. Hence the term "simulated annealing," named after the process of annealing steel by cooling it slowly, which allows the crystal domains to enlarge.

      This means that sometimes changes are accepted which actually decrease the fitness, with the hope that you might perhaps be able to escape a local maximum on the fitness landscape.

      In my experience, simulated annealing often works well in the same situations that a GA works well. And it's much easier to implement, too.

    3. Re:Not very practical... by jafac · · Score: 1

      Absolutely true.

      And different drivers will handle different car configurations differently. Give a driver inexperienced with a rear-weight-biased car a rear-weight-biased car, and after the first hairpin, he's going to be flying off the course backwards, and wondering why.

      Give a driver inexperienced with a front-weight-biased car, a front-weight-biased car, and he'll wonder why you put a front-weight-biased car on a racetrack.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
  41. It's a neat idea, but I can see a few problems. by foxtrot · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Foremost from my amateur racer point of view is the cost: Being able to tune any one of 60 some-odd parameters probably means being able to swap out any one of 60 some-odd parts with some other part, so you've got to have one of every possible part on hand or be able to fabricate it.

    For an F1 team, cost's not so much a consideration, though, the trouble is time. To be able to change that many parameters means having someone get under the car, swap a pile of parts, and send the test driver back out on track to collect the info for the next evolution. Computer simulations are neat, but they're not perfect, and when you're talking about shaving fractions of a second, that small imperfection can throw it completely away.

    I also wonder if this would actually be useful in the real world with real conditions. The sun going behind a cloud for a while has a measurable effect on lap times. The amount of gas in the tank, the temperature of the track, all those things change the way a car handles on the edge. Often, race setup is to dial in a car to be a little tighter or looser than what you really wanted because you expect the track to come to you.

    And then there's a possibly even bigger problem: If you go out and look at two cars that are running identical lap times, chances are they're nothing even close to identically set up, because drivers aren't machines. One driver will like a certain setup, and another won't be able to do anything with it.

    1. Re:It's a neat idea, but I can see a few problems. by kfg · · Score: 4, Informative

      Foremost from my amateur racer point of view is the cost: Being able to tune any one of 60 some-odd parameters probably means being able to swap out any one of 60 some-odd parts with some other part, so you've got to have one of every possible part on hand or be able to fabricate it.

      Well, no, not exactly. Do you use adjustable dampers on your car? Simple bump/rebound adjustment is 8 parameters (each wheel is a seperate system) right there alone. Roll bar lever arm length adustment, another two. Tire pressure, another four. Camber, another four. Toe, another four.

      We're up to 22 so far and haven't spent a penny or changed a part, nor have we yet exhausted simple suspension settings. Toe, 26. Castor, 28. Anti dive/squat, 30. Half way there already.

      Front and rear wing angles, brake bias, weight distribution. More stuff that simple adjustable.

      Ok, let's look at some of the parts that are commonly changed. Tires. Did you think of tires as a part? They are. They're a parameter. How many compounds have you got, hard/soft/wet? Maybe you're poor and only have three sets of springs, hard/medium/soft

      We're over our 60 parameters now and are still well within the range of changes that an amatuer racer would consider common and haven't touched the gearbox yet.

      Which is why we are also still within the range of simple car adjustments allowed in a video game which doesn't allow for fabrication of unique parts.

      Assuming you race in a catagory that allows these changes. Many amatuer, and even "entry level" pro catagories deal with the issue by simply disallowing changes. If you race Formula Vee/Star Mazda/Spec Miata/Barber Dodge you aren't going to be doing anything like changing suspension arms.

      60 parameters is nothin'.

      KFG

  42. Re:What about the driver? Is he tunable too? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Three drivers had identical qualifying times down to 1/1000th of a second in 97.
    http://www.theautochannel.com/sports/openwhee l/f1/ races/portugal/?SPORTS

  43. Uh-oh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    It will not get much faster, but will start running over pedestrians while a HUD shows how many points the pilot scored...

  44. Re:What about the driver? Is he tunable too? by toxf · · Score: 1

    For those of us living in this universe, 88/100 is 0.88 seconds. That's an enormous difference, almost a second per lap. If you have ever watched high-performance racing, be it F-1 or stock car, you know that pulling away from the competition at a second a lap is gigantic. With regard to the drivers, it's not about whether or not they are perfect - it's about giving them the best "gear" to play the game. This is equivalent to developing new bats for baseball players or new cleats for football players.

  45. Re:What about the driver? Is he tunable too? by dabadab · · Score: 1

    Take this weekend's United States Grand Prix.
    73 laps: if you can save 0.88 s each lap that means 64.24 s for the whole race.
    There was a difference of 2.9 s between the first two racers (M. Schumacher and Barrichello) and 37.5 s between the first and the fifth (Panis), so that 0.88 s is a pretty significant amount. (Of course, in a race situation it would be less, since the presence of the other racers)

    --
    Real life is overrated.
  46. Re:What about the driver? Is he tunable too? by mlu035 · · Score: 1

    Also, increasingly in Formula 1, it's more about getting pole position than the actual race itself as it is so difficult to overtake, and qualifying times, done on one 'hot' lap, are often much closer than .88 of a second.

    --
    "Feel the force, mother fucker." (Shaft Windu)
  47. Re:What about the driver? Is he tunable too? by Flaming+Foobar · · Score: 1

    You've never watched a certain M Schumacher, obviously. The guy is a robot.

    You didn't watch the race last Sunday, then, did you? He made a mistake... not that it would have diminished his chances of winning in the slightest, but nonetheless he did...

    --
    while true;do echo -e -n "\033[s\n\033[u\134_\033[B";done
  48. Re:What about the driver? Is he tunable too? by flewp · · Score: 1

    Even robots make mistakes. What mistake are you refering to? Do you mean last Sunday as in at Indy or at Montreal?

    --
    WWJD.... for a Klondike bar?
  49. Already done in practice... by Telcontar · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is already done in practice to optimize individual *parts* of a car. Certain desired/required parameters are given (dimensions as far as prescribed by regulations, necessary stiffness to survive race distance etc.). Others are variable (detailed geometry of individual parts). However, 70 parameters are just enough to model a single part, such as the shape of the nose.

    The insight of the design at large still has to come from an engineer. Genetic algorithms are then used to fine-tune that design. Applying the algorithm is still hard because it requires a lot of knowledge of the physics involved. Once you have this, you can be quite successful because everyone is craving to optimize a few percent.

    1. Re:Already done in practice... by tkw954 · · Score: 1
      This is already done in practice to optimize individual *parts* of a car.

      This has also been done in practice to optimize driving lines. There is an article in Auto-technology that shows that the classical paths are not the best unless you have a lot worse braking than acceleration.

  50. Re:how to do it part 2 by nelsonal · · Score: 1

    I'm thinking that since the purpose of Nos is to rapidly cool the air pre ignition (making it denser) you might have some shrinkage problems with your equipment if you tried to demonstrate BIG gains with the ladies.

    --
    Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
  51. Re:Formula 1... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nice troll. Hope you're modded as such.

  52. If there is an accident... by sparkywonderchicken · · Score: 0

    Will the car's DNA be admissable? Will they test the gas for steroids or the oil for amphetamines? Will the car have to comply with the laws of Robotics?

  53. Re:Formula 1... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, 2004 is beginning to look far more like 2002, than 2003. However, Paragon is built and once Williams(Sir Frank) sorts out his drivers, Then it should become more competitive again. Or wait for the spec tire coming 2006. And only a tifosi would mod parent a troll.

  54. But it's so boring... by Goonie · · Score: 1
    You might enjoy the Ferrari domination, but for the rest of us the races are predictable as watching grass grow. Half the time you know the Ferraris will win by looking at the practice times. The other half of the time you know that the Ferraris will win by about lap 5. Then there's one hour and 45 minutes of the inevitable.

    Then there's the circuits. I'm based in Melbourne, so we get the joy of a street circuit; you can't see *anything* unless you shell out hundreds of dollars for a grandstand pass (instead of $70 for general admission) and even then you can see maybe two corners.

    I've seen F1, MotoGP, touring cars, supercross, speedway, even oddities like mud racing, both live and on TV. F1 has always been the most boring of the lot.

    --

    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
    --Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
    1. Re:But it's so boring... by flewp · · Score: 1

      Well, do you also realise that F1 has been this way for a long, long time? Look back at the days of Williams and McLaren domination. in '92 and '93, Williams won 10 races in each year I believe. In 96 they walked away with 12 wins. Look back to 1988 when McLaren won 15 out of 16 races. It's just the nature of the sport for one team to dominate.

      --
      WWJD.... for a Klondike bar?
    2. Re:But it's so boring... by Tongo · · Score: 1

      My god, you must be young if you conisder '92 and '93 as "a long, long time". Hell, even 88 wasn't THAT long ago. (btw, I have no friggin idea how long F1 racing has been around, but does it keep me from posting, HELL NO)

    3. Re:But it's so boring... by flewp · · Score: 1

      I was merely pointing out recent times. I didn't feel like going back all the way to the 50's to make a point.

      But here goes:

      1950: Alfa Romeo wins 6 of 7 races.
      1952: Ferrari wins 7 of 8 races.
      1955: Mercedes wins 5 of 7 races.
      1960: Cooper wins 6 of 10 races. Climax powered cars that won 8 of 10 in that year.
      1961: Ferrari wins 5 of 8 races

      I hope that's far enough back for you.

      --
      WWJD.... for a Klondike bar?
    4. Re:But it's so boring... by Tongo · · Score: 1

      Plenty far back. I'm just getting sensative about my age these days.... :oP

  55. Minimal Simulations by da5idnetlimit.com · · Score: 1

    I was thinking about another kind of Minimal Simulation...

    No, seriously... using a smaller "universe" so they can test "real-world" while still using only 68 parameters (sic)...

    And have all the car computer controlled, for testing, you know... + some serious fun 8)

    --
    It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
  56. And how does this compare with other methods? by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 2, Informative

    I expect I could do a lot better with traditional optimization methods. Genetic algorithms are notoriously slow at converging and are only any good when all other methods fail. I expect that for a racing simulation the output is, almost everywhere, a differentiable function of the input parameters, and hence you can use some kind of calculus based minimization algorithm. People use adjoint methods all the time to differentiate fluid dynamics simulations or orbital manoeuvers so I don't see that these methods would fail for a racing sim. In fact this paper is probably a good place to start.

    --
    Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
  57. Re:how to do it part 2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ( zooming away from lights to impress girls )

    I certainly hope you mean girls inside your car. Because if they're in the other car, you'd end up being far away from said girls. Then again, this is /.

  58. Strange Application by UncleJam · · Score: 1

    Genetic Algorithms are really neat. I've seen a bunch go, and it is fun to see what they come up with in the end and how they get there. But what they simulate seems very strange to me. First off, my favorite computer games are driving simulations, and Electronic Arts is always harshly critisized by the sim community on how "arcade" their games are. It would seem doubtful that they designed a new piece of software just for this, but you never know. Second, is variables that change every hour at the track. 30F difference in temperature is HUGE in the way it affects how the car handles. Even 10F would most likely warrant some changes to the chassis. Plus, parts of the race track might be in the shade, also cloud cover affects a bunch of things. It could be done to write something that includes all the things head engineers face on race day, but it would take a lot of real life experimentation.

  59. Funny but true by zlexiss · · Score: 1

    My lap times (autocross and road racing) improved a good deal when I put a harness into my car. It was so much eaiser to feel what the car was doing when you're firmly attached to the seat.

    Pro hockey players tend to skate barefoot (no socks) for much the same reasons - less flexing in the skate due to better contact = better feel on the ice.

  60. Not really the most appropriate use of GA's by James+Turpin · · Score: 1

    You could just as well use a grid search algorithm for this. After all, you basicly have a function of so many variables that returns a real number (lap time), and you want to minimize this function.

    After doing a grid search, and saving your data, you could try some multi-variable calculus curve fitting and get a pretty good idea of where the local/global minima are likely to be. This way, you don't just have a unique solution, a single example of a fast car, but rather a theory in the form of an equation which can be empirically tested at many points to determine if your model is correct. Then you can tweak the model/equation based on empirical results, and do some simple multi-variable calculus to fit the real-world optimized solution.

    One thing genetic algorithms are useful for is ever-chaning environments, where there is no unique solution and there are trade-offs between robustness in general and optimization for the momentary environment. In this case the GA allows you to continuously evolve as you go through various environments so that you (hopefully) end up with both good performance and excellent robustness, and possibly also find and record various different specialized species for different environments. Games of chance, such as poker or multiplayer xpuyopuyo against imperfect opponents is one example of this.

    GA's are also useful when the design can not be reduced to a fixed number of real number variables, but rather is open-ended in terms of complexity.

    Notice that living organisms satisfy both of these categories.
    --
    Mathematics is not a crime.
  61. Already done by ishmaelflood · · Score: 1

    This is not flamebait.

    The shift schedule for automatic transmissions can be optimised for the urban cycle fuel economy measurement.

    I have a genetic simulator for precisely that function.

    Oh, you won't be getting 55 mpg from your PoS car any time soon, mass is the problem.

  62. Speed of simulations by ishmaelflood · · Score: 1

    Full vehicle simulations (say using MSC ADAMS www.adams.com ) typically run at rather less than real time (say 10%) on a decent PC. GA lends itself to parallel evaluation of each solution, so each generation of say 1000 models could be run in say 20 minutes on 1000 cpus.

    Alternatively, we have the option of running them on a Cray.

    Alternatively #2 it would not be hard to reduce the run time for each model by cleaning it up manually, and running it in RAM. I'd guess it would be easy to achieve real time then.