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Virtual Reality/CAVE Software?
WorthlessManatee asks: "I work for a company that is in the beginning stages of constructing our own CAVE and I would like some advice on a few topics. Which hardware vendors should I go through? I know of Fakespace, but are there other vendors I should be looking at? What software solution works best for a CAVE? So far I know of: VR Juggler, DIVERSE, and CAVELib? What are the pros and cons of each of them?
Answers to these questions and any other hints or experiences you would care to share would be most appreciated. Thank you very much."
This btw... is a small explaination of a CAVE.
I touch computers in naughty places
fishing in my weblinks....
unreal cave
projection links and type breakdowns
uaeu cave
elumens products are droool
fakespace
vrml 3d projection
not quite cave.... this is 3d projection
this one is further leading.....
io2tech
back in the day we didnt have no old school
Is it ok with you if I breathe?!?!?
As long as you don't ask a group of fish how to do it, go ahead.
Ah, the truness. I usually just ask google how to do my job. It's much smarter than slashdot anyways. One day I hope google will just do all our jobs for us.
The guy doesn't know how to do HIS OWN JOB so he asks slashdot. Don't encourage this activity.
"Hi, I'm admittedly worthless, so I thought I'd bump up my karma by submitting an Ask Slashdot question about something totally obscure, since the editors seem to be on an 'accept all' kick today."
Hi, I'm a condescending jerk that wants to bump up his karma by trying to point out the silliness of an Ask Slashdot. I'm incapable of providing thoughtful input, and the idea of ignoring the subject I'm not interested in has escaped me, so I'm hoping that my critical attitude will demonstrate just how elite I am.
"Derp de derp."
If you think Performer is not exactly the best API for what you want, look at what a friend of mine has been doing here in Amsterdam ...
http://www.nat.vu.nl/~desmond/VIRPI/
http://www.nat.vu.nl/~desmond/Aura/
http://www.cs.vu.nl/~renambot/vr/html/intro.htm
CAVELib's is a very simple, glut-like API that lets you take existing opengl apps and make them "CAVE-Compatible" very quickly.. Unfortunately, it's difficult to do multithreading or view-dependent rendering the way it's setup. I prefer VRJuggler. It's Object oriented, and pThreads based. IMHO, it's much more "mature" than CAVELibs, and allows alot more flexibility. Unfortunatly, it's a bit harder to learn. Also, VRJuggler is developed by Carolina Vera-Cruz, the same person that designed the original CAVELibs. In her words, VRJuggler was designed to fix alot of the shortcomings and design mistakes she made in CAVELibs.
I work for the Penn State University visualization group and we use Chromium (which supports cave-like deformed viewpoints and stereoscopic rendering over them, as well as low-cost linux clustering and high-end myrinet and infiniband clustering) and OpenSG (A general purpose toolkit for writing scenegraph-based applications). Good luck! Visit our website for information on how we've used it: PSU Vis. Group
__________
Love conquers all... except CANCER
Are you more powerful yet?
You obviously have no knowledge what so ever about CAVEs or you would know that this Ask /. has at least done some homework. Enough to know that there are competing libraries for use in a CAVE, and that there are strengths and weaknesses to them. While /. may not the best place to ask for opinions on a CAVE, I can't think (or find even after some effort) of a better place to ask. There is no CAVE newsgroup or mailing list to Google (which was actually a suprise, but in some ways not a suprise from the politics of CAVEs that I've heard about). Slashdot at least has a chance of finding some with experience, and it sure beats asking K5 in that regard!
Basically, if you don't know anything about the subject being asked, don't assume anyone else does either. WorthlessManatee has done more homework that this troll. If you don't have anything to add, there is no need to insult the questioner.
To add actually add to the topic, I have met some of the programmers who have worked on DIVERSE (there is a CAVE across the hall at work), and they seem a smart bunch, but I haven't actually been in a CAVE since before DIVERSE was a pilot project, so I can't say if the libraries are good or not.
I am, and always will be, an idiot. Karma: Coma (mostly effected by
All I said was I was getting bored with the same "How do I do my own job" questions for ask slashdot.
(And it was meant to be funny, as it was originally modded)
some good info at:
http://cyberedge.com/3.html
Your link is valid and on topic, but a suggestion: Add more commentary. As you likely well know, some on Slashdot get their jollies by posting poorly commented or seemingly compelling links which ultimately lead to shock sites. Your post looks a tad like one of those sort of evil posts. Also, you failed to hotlink (http://cyberedge.com/3.html) which is very important for those of us who are quite lazy.
Cheers.
You like splinters in your crotch? -Jon Caldara
I would suggest asking this people there about this question.
Hi, What do you mean by "constructing our own CAVE"? Really constructing your own CAVE as we did at the department of Architecture, UAEU? or have a company construct it for you? In our case I selected to construct it myself using of-the-shelf components. We have a cluster of 3xP4s + windows 2000. more info found at: http://www.engg.uaeu.ac.ae/a.okeil/uaeu-cave/index .htm
Answers to your questions depend on several determining factors such as:
1- What type of applications will you display?
2- Do you need navigation+interaction or only navigation? What type of interaction.
3- Do yoiu plan to integrate other input devices? tracking systems?
4- How do you plan to create your applications (on the long run might cost more than the initial cave investment).
5- Is the cave ment to be a showcase for your company or is it for internal use?.
In our case simplicity of creating the application came before anything else. We selected to start with programs students of architecture already use such as AUTOCAD, 3DS MAX and FormZ. The models are exported to the VRML format. The model is then displayed using a web browser + the cortona plug-in. A small application was developed to synchronize events on all screens. That is all you need to navigate through a virtual world in our cave. I think it can never get simpler.
If you need some interaction then you have to start working on the VRML level using VRMLPAD for example.
This approach has saved us and our students the hasle of going into programming in languages none of us know. In 5 minutes you can have your 3D model out of Autocad running in the cave.
I hope this reply answers some of your questions. Let me know if you have other questions.
What do you mean by "constructing our own CAVE"? Really constructing your own CAVE as we did at the department of Architecture, UAEU? or have a company construct it for you?
In our case I selected to construct it myself using of-the-shelf components. We have a cluster of 3xP4s + windows 2000. more info found at: http://www.engg.uaeu.ac.ae/a.okeil/uaeu-cave/
A nswers to your questions depend on several determining factors such as:
1- What type of applications will you display?
2- Do you need navigation+interaction or only navigation? What type of interaction.
3- Do yoiu plan to integrate other input devices? tracking systems?
4- How do you plan to create your applications (on the long run might cost more than the initial cave investment).
5- Is the cave ment to be a showcase for your company or is it for internal use?.
In our case simplicity of creating the application came before anything else. We selected to start with programs students of architecture already use such as AUTOCAD, 3DS MAX and FormZ. The models are exported to the VRML format. The model is then displayed using a web browser + the cortona plug-in. A small application was developed to synchronize events on all screens. That is all you need to navigate through a virtual world in our cave. I think it can never get simpler. If you need some interaction then you have to start working on the VRML level using VRMLPAD for example.
This approach has saved us and our students the hasle of going into programming in languages none of us know. In 5 minutes you can have your 3D model out of Autocad running in the cave. I hope this reply answers some of your questions. Let me know if you have other questions.
On a slightly related subject, is there an inexpensive (10,000 USD or so) way to get decent VR on a linux desktop?
I'd like to have stereo motion-tracked goggles at least, and one or two gloves would be nice also.
Since it's easy enough to run two or more graphics cards at the same time, I'd like to find a headset that takes two DVI inputs.
Shae Erisson - ScannedInAvian.com
Check out the following links:
Barco for your projection monitors, mirrors, and rigging equipment. Be prepared to pay $100,000 for a powerwall, and upwards of $1M for a full out CAVE. You may balk at the pricetag, although that's the market value... If you want to try designing and installing one yourself, by all means try... Just don't fool yourself regarding the cost of rigging, purchasing high-quality mirrors, architectural design costs, and purchasing high refresh rate projection monitors (e.g. 100+ Hz projectors). You're talking about industry solutions, so expect to pay industry prices.
Stereographics for your active shutter stereogoggle systems. $3,000 per pair of goggles (they are the best on the market, by the way). So, for a theatre setup, be prepared to spend $30,000 to $60,000 on goggles, or more.
Immersion for your haptics (gloves and such). They start at $20,000 per glove, and range up to $250,000 for a complete two-handed 6-degrees-of-freedom force-feedback system (e.g. telerobotics, telesurgery, and so forth).
After that, look towards OpenGL applications. Java3D can wrap around OpenGL, so Java3D is good too. VRML pretty much died, so don't worry too much about Cosmo Player or derivatives. You might want to check out Sense8, which is a pretty good all-purpose CAVE and VR appication programing environment. It has a number of modules, including WorldUp (for getting your hardware up and running), WorldToolKit (for designing your CAVE applications), and World2World (for connection your CAVE to others). I think licenses run around $50K per module, although I might be wrong... I know that Sense8 has had some internal restructuring within the past few years, so they might have restructured their licensing program.
After that, it's mostly a matter of somebody on your team learning how to program OpenGL or Java3D really, really well.
At work I roll my own using a Beowulf cluster running VTK (vtk.org) controlled by python scripting and pygame, very handy.
The software is cheap/free, too - plenty of options there, from modded UT and Quake offerrings (among others), to Python/PyGame/OpenGL combos.
Where you will be hit is the HMD/output end. If you are willing to go with a lower resolution (640x480 - 800x600), there are plenty of offerrings on Ebay and elsewhere - you have to know whether your app will need immersion (60 degree H x 45 degree V FOV minimum), or if you need resolution (always a tradeoff). If you are looking for immersion (personally, I always prefer to be immersed - its VR, not looking down a tube!), look into a Visette 2 or Visette Pro HMD. These HMDs could be termed "arcade" or "prosumer", or low-end research HMDs - the Visette 2 HMD was used on the Virtuality 2000 series pods, and can be found used. One caveat though, it needs PAL (composite) video inputs. The Pro version takes SVGA.
Try to "try-before-you-buy", if you can (very difficult, I know). For the Visette 2, go to Vegas or a theme park and look for the Virtuality "VR Arcade" or whatever they call it, and try it out (stay away from the older Virtuality 1000 pods, the HMDs are heavy, and low res - but great FOV).
At any rate, you should be able to pick up an HMD for under $1000 if it is used (I have bought both a Visette Pro and a CyberEye CE-200M HMD for under $300 each off ebay). A new HMD like that will run from $1500-2500.00. A final option would be to build the HMD yourself - easily doable, people did it all the time back in the early 90's using handheld casio TVs.
The nice thing about the Visette 2 HMDs (off an actual Virtuality pod), is that they have Polhemus receiver coils built-in - meaning that you can easily interface them with Polhemus 6DOF tracking systems. Same with the Virtuality 2000 pod's joystick.
Tracking is where you will also run into money issues - expect to pay around $2000 for a good tracking system. If you just need head movement, though - and can live without "roll" of the head (only yaw and pitch), look into modding a GyroPoint GyroMouse for the application - simple, and cheap 2DOF head tracking. There are also a lot of simple tracking possibilities that can be homebrewed, as well - but if you want a commercial system, expect to pay some money.
Now, as far as gloves are concerned, you would probably do best to get a commercial 6DOF tracking system (put the sensor on the back of your hand or wrist), then buy some lycra gloves, sew some brass button "snaps" onto the fingertips and palm, and make a "pinch" circuit recognition system (rather than tracking finger bend - unless your app requires it). Gloves will run you an arm-and-a-leg - they are so niche (and still locked up in patent issues from the VPL patent set - it was a very broad and large patent suite that VPL had). You can spend a lot here. Roll your own, if you can (and if you aren't selling a product - most any glove that you homebrew will stomp on a number of patents). Another possibility is to hack up/apart a powerglove for the flex sensors, then sew them into/on a lighter lycra glove...
If you aren't going to want to "look around" your world, then simple shutter glasses, like they sell for game systems, can be had for cheap - and you don't even need dual monitors for it. If you want something more professional, a CrystalEyes system would be best, but be prepared to spend some cash.
Even if you go completely professional (and stick with a regular PC and free/open source VR software solutions), you can easily do this for under $10,000. If you really take your time, you can easily do it for much less (remember, homebrew VR on PCs used 386's back in the early 90's - cost for a VR setup really hasn't changed much if you homebrew all or most of it - its only when you bri
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
There are basically two kinds of CAVE projector setups
1. A single, high-frequency (read that as big $$$$) projectors (120 Hz+), which use "flicker goggles" (though at these high frequencies this is rarely an issue) - like CrystalEyes glasses or something similar.
2. Dual projector systems (lower frequency projectors are cheaper) which use polarizing filters and similar glasses, each projector getting a different view from the rendering engine PC for the 3D effect.
The problem with the second system, while it can be cheaper (plus you don't have to deal with issues of wires or batteries in the glasses, just use cheaper polarized glasses - nearly throwaway), is the problem of registration - how do you get both projectors to overlay the image the same on the screen without undue distortion (keystoning) - if you place them side-by-side, you have an issue, same with on top of each other (plus there are ventilation issues, but that is another topic).
Ideally, you would want to use a prism or something to combine the sources - but this opens up other expenses (as well as light-loss issues, which will already be an issue with the polarizing filters).
Just keep it in mind as you build or consult on this system. The registration issue may not seem like much, but it can easily cause eye-strain and other issues when in use, and you will already be fighting physiological symptoms (ie, simulator sickness) just because it is a full or near-full immersion system...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
I'm sensing a no.
I would advise the use of Syzygy.
We use it here at the U of I, it's GPL, and it really excellent as far as power and stability go.
More importantly, it can run on a off-the-shelf PC. It can also run on windows or linux.
I strongly advise looking into it.
how about hunt the wumpus?
You could have a 4 headed G5 drive this thing... I set one up a few months ago. That plus a space mouse and you are in business. Now with 8 GB of ram and dual 2.5 GHz G5's. Very fun till you loose your mouse somewhere. Or you could go with Linux, Windows, or IRIX (if you want to pay big $$$).
Its very interesting all these mentions of coin and Cave. It hit right on my search for games by CAVE. They've made some great games like DoDonPachi, which you can find here.
Lt. Deanna Troi, please report to the bridge immediately!
"Hi, I'm admittedly worthless, so I thought I'd bump up my karma by submitting an Ask Slashdot question about something totally obscure, since the editors seem to be on an 'accept all' kick today."
I had to set up a CAVE by myself a few years back using parts donated by a local company that was upgrading its system. I would have killed for something as useful as this Ask Slashdot.
"They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
I have seen many caves and build them myself and I think that Virtools is one of the best tools for building VR apps for non-programmers (artists&designers...). It has exporters for 3dstudio&lw (maya not sure..) and their scripting engine is not too bad With their VR pack, it supports stereo (if you need) it and many 3D input devices. http://www.virtools.com/solutions/products/virtool s_vrpack.asp
I am not a Virtools employee, but I had some contact with their software and I was quite impressed with it. On the down side, I think that is only windows...
I am a co-founder of a 501(c)3 non-profit, Applied Interactives, which creates VR systems and content for artists and scientists. We have installed several passive stereo displays for Universities, corporations and individuals. Please check out our website for more info.