Slashdot Mirror
Sun to GPL Project Looking Glass
elleomea writes "According to The Register, Sun is releasing Project Looking Glass, their new GNU/Linux based 3D window managing system, under the GPL during their JavaOne conference (beginning today)." The screenshots of Looking Glass make it out to be very pretty. I'm not sure if I have the spare CPU cycles to power such an environment, but it's sure nice to drool over.
Here's hoping it's as functional as it is good looking, or it is all for naught.
Physics is nothing like religion. If it was, we'd have an easier time trying to raise money!
Yes, it is very nice looking, but how does it improve my interactions with the computer? The whole tilted window thing looks good but i dont think it'll be a huge bonus when it comes time to actually use it... I'd rather use those CPU cycles for something worthwhile i think...
drunk chemists
I guess my subject pretty much expresses my enthusiasm. It's nice to see this coming from Sun. Looking Glass looked really cool, but I was always concerned that they wouldn't open it. Now with this news, it should allow desktop developers to try new things.
Pretty cool stuff.
Jason Lotito
I mean, come on, everyone *want's* the latest and greatest, it's just those of us who can't justify it that don't actually go out and buy them :-)
:-)
:-(
Personally I've stuck with a Matrox G450 for what seems like the longest time simply because it was the one of the first (and the best) at dual monitor display, and I *like* that - 3200x1600 displays are really nice when you've lots of editor windows open
Ah well, if it does take off, guess I'll be getting an nVidea or ATI card, which means a PCI-X motherboard, might as well throw in an Athlon-64 (maybe FX), and I'll want PC3200 RAM. Damn that's an expensive desktop
Simon
Physicists get Hadrons!
And think in the nice animations and graphic effect of MacOSX, if they are happy with it, maybe will not be so bad under Linux.
You can't see past the status quo, much like the rest of the Great Unwashed. That's why the world is stuck on cruft like Windows. Think for a minute, if you dare, about what might be possible with this if it were to be adopted and developed by a small community of people.
Instead of wasting time of super cool, awesome 3D spinning, rotating and flipping translucent windows with shadows, how about establishing some GUI standards for Linux to make it easier to use for the grandmas and grandpas of the world. No amount of Linux screen real estate bling bling is going to make it a better OS for the common user.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
We should all give Sun a big round of applause for this one!
...Well, the ability to annotate arbitrary windows might be useful, as long as the sesison management was good enough, but the "rotate the window away" thing seems just as useful as shading windows on any current window manager - not very useful, as you always end up with a bunch of shaded title bars underneath some new windows.
I don't have enough screen real estate to devote half of it to things I'm not currently using.
It looks like a "pretty" big waste of time and screen real estate. The last screenshot labelled "organize" is pretty damn ugly. It reminds me of CDE turned on its side.
Here's your chance to improve upon it! Go forth and code!
I have a feeling that this project will do neither.
How pessimistic..
-adnans
"In short: just say NO TO DRUGS, and maybe you won't end up like the Hurd people." --Linus Torvalds
Which everybody seems to forget its more then a GUI, but a framework to develop 3D aplications as well.
So yes, it's a waste of cycles as a just another desktop, but plenty apps can benefit from a common 3D interface.
That is what is interesting about looking glass.
I find it funny that this was modded offtopic. Microsoft is continually bashed for the enhancements it makes to its GUI. I'm always hearing complaining about sliding/fading windows etc making the code bloated, or slowing things down, or soaking up CPU cycles.
Now something comes out for linux that is seriously just eye candy and it's suddenly the next big thing. For god sakes people at least TRY to be objective.
The use of transparent windows seems to be standard now, but would it be possible to create an OpenGL context which allowed the application to specify a transparent background color, which allow the current desktop to be seen underneath?Combine this with the "no window frames" option of X-windows, and some really cool visualisations could be written.
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
First, people say this every damned time an improvement is made to a GUI. If anybody listened, we'd all still be using CLI exclusively. Second, most people using their 3 GHz machine for office work most certainly DO have the spare cycles.
Additionally, it looks like the improvements will really make a usability difference in how we interact with the UI. Keeping notes on an application window, tilting the windows to keep most of the perceptual information (btw, using foreshortening to effectively compress windows is a great idea), making multiple desktops more perceptual, etc are all good ideas that will help people interact more intelligently with their programs.
I think this is a great start, and with some tightening and more well-implemented ideas, I can't wait to see this in a mainstream OS.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
So just how hard is it to manipulate a 3D environment on a 2D display with a 2D input device? I've had minor problems rotating objects in apps like Poser. I can only imagine how difficult some of this could be for people with impaired movement.
Not having had the opportunity to actually try this interface, I was wondering if it take a lot of practice to get good at rotating windows and moving the object around the environment.
How does the os know that I want to move an object up along the y axis instead of "back" along the z axis?
I agree. This is lame. The screenshots and all smell to me like someone's PHD thesis.
As shown this has glaring issues:
- reading vertical text on side of windows is uncomfortable.
- how is spinning a window around to look at properties better than opening up a separate properties dialog???
- java?
- i would be suprised if human factors has been involved in project to this point.
If/when this comes to market, it will look and behave much different than shown.
Hey! Stop copying my sig!!! Stop copying my sig!!! Stop copying my sig!!! Stop copying my sig!!!
mods on crack again... serious outbreak of the old "if microsoft windows doesn't have it then there's no point in it" type of comment to anything positively different in the way of UIs. The only reason we're not seeing any posts berating the use of multiple desktops with pagers these days is because Microsoft is bringing them finally to the market in the form of Longhorn... after having had them hidden away for a long time now as an unnofficial tweakUI app. The moaners have got to go with the flow now as it's been decided for them that multiple desktops are now in... and I've just wasted my ability to moderate any posts in this topic...
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
Please tell us,
when Java is Open Source, how will standards compliance be enforced ?
When Sun gets a good answer to that question, I believe they very well may make Java more open than it is, if not make it completely FOSS. Even with it being as 'closed' as it is, it's *still* more difficult to write-once than it should be ( though easily do-able ), just because their compatablility tests don't catch the sometimes subtle bugs that application developers can run into. It's a fine line to walk; Sun doesn't want to force bug-free JVMs before a vendor can release, or they'd never get to market, but the goal of cross-platform compatability requires nearly bug-free or bug-compatable VMs. It's a tough enough task without some independant developer with GPL'd source deciding to release a 'tweaked' version that doesn't support 90% of javax.swing.*, just because they're 'only targeting platform XYZ" or whatever.
It's very well to argue that Java should be open source, but to do so without addressing the issues involved is almost like trolling...
And yes, I agree completely that open source is good, but what exactly does Sun have to gain by your proposal ?
That, and how off-topic is Java from the story at hand? Way, way off-topic.
I mean, c'mon, how frickin' cool would it be to have this kind of 3D desktop running on an Opteron-based Linux machine with a really nice graphics card in it? Damn! You should be singing the praises of Sun right now, what's wrong with you, man, what's it take to get you excited ?!? You get FP and *that* is the best you can do, a tired old "what about Java" bitch ?!? This is about a cool 3D desktop demo going GPL !
I know Mr. AC is trying to be funny, but this crap really pisses me off. For one, JAVA IS NOT SLOW. It gained that reputation back when it lacked a JIT compiler. Sun corrected that problem pretty fast, but the idea just won't go away. Granted, some of the APIs are such that they can appear to be quite slow to those who don't know what the hell they're doing. I'm always hearing from people who say "My game only runs at 10 FPS! Whaa! Java Sucks!" To which I usually reply "Are you using BufferStrategy, the core of the 2D gaming API?" The Deer-in-the-Headlights looks on their faces are priceless. To which they then mumble something about thinking Swing was somehow the way to write games.
Secondly, the Looking Glass project uses OpenGL. I don't care what language you're using, OpenGL performance is limited by the video card and bus, not by the CPU. If your 3D apps are slow, it's because you don't know what the f*** you're doing. That goes for C, C++, Python, Ruby, and yes: JAVA.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Reading through the posts I see numerous people complaining about how this is pointless and a waste of cpu cycles and has no benefits over a traditional 2D desktop.
You are failing to realize that by open sourcing this project, sun can harness the creativity of the open source community to improve this project and make it into something you would actually want to use on a daily basis instead of just a gimmick to show off to your friends.
This is a step in the right direction and I am excited that they are releasing this.
File JAVA and its promise of platform independance away with all those AT&T commercials from the mid 90's that promised you would soon be able to check out and read entire books via the internet, make video phone calls, and perform remote heart surgery with their new technology.
All that stuff is possible now, unless you're referring to how long it took to do it.
-Dizzle
"I most likely AM so interested in myself."
...but really, I dont see how it improves usability at all.
The video just confirmed my suspicions.
I mean really, rotating your windows upside down does anything for usability?
How does sticking notes to the back of windows help usability at all, when you can't see them without flipping each window around? How is this better than normal sticky/postitnotes applications?
There's still as much clutter as normal desktops -- actually more, the minimized windows take up more screen real estate than traditional minimized windows and they dont really convey any more information.
If there's anything truly practical and innovative about Sun's LG, its the use of opengl in the UI. Now that has some serious applications. The rest is just fluff.
Anyway, LG is very cute and all, but I think i'll pass.
- reading vertical text on side of windows is uncomfortable.
It seems to work for books just fine. Most people are quite adapted to handling vertical text when they're quickly looking for something.
- how is spinning a window around to look at properties better than opening up a separate properties dialog???
For one, it provides a "link" between the action and the result. A common problem in windowing systems is that users perform an action, then have difficulty understanding the response. Anything you can do to eliminate the "magic" of desktop items and make them more like real world objects will be of help to the user.
In addition, the window flip provides a much more natural "mode" than a properties box. Many properties boxes attempt to make up for a lack of modal nature by locking out the underlying application and forcing the properties box on top. This leads to confusion on the part of the user as their application appears to have locked up. Things get particularly bad when popup boxes somehow get hidden in the OS. (e.g. obscured by another window or somehow behind the parent window)
- java?
Why not? Back in the day, OSes were written in ALGOL, Fortran, LISP, and just about everything else. Generally, this would link the OS to its language for a complete development environment. It wasn't until Unix became popular, that C became "standard". It was actually a very poor choice for a language, but the computers of the day really cried out for the performance benefits.
- i would be suprised if human factors has been involved in project to this point.
It strikes me that they already have been involved.
If/when this comes to market, it will look and behave much different than shown.
Who has shown it? In fact, name one company that has succeeded in creating a usable 3D desktop? You probably can't, because all the other implementations are too far out to left field. Sun took the approach of incremental change and appears to have succeeded.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
I for one haven't upgraded my computer since 2001, and all my servers are pre-2000 productions. I've never needed to upgrade them, and I'm happy for that. I'd hate seeing myself being forced to upgrade my hardware just to be able to run the base system.
In particular, all the "ordinary" computer users I know (grandparents, parents and the ordinary classes) - not a single one of them have a CPU running at above 1 GHz and all of them have pre-geforce3 video cards. I think they want to upgrade even less than I do just to upgrade their operating system.
It's great that Sun has GPL'ed this desktop, but it has absolutely zero chance of mainstream Linux adoption. Why? Because it requires Java to run, and the Java environment itself is not open source. Remember the whole KDE debacle about Qt not being free enough? Multiply that by a few million times and you'll see why Looking Glass won't make it past "gee, that's cool" in the Linux world.
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
Uh, have you SEEN Java games that use OpenGL? It's a disgrace. I can't believe people like you bother to defend it.
Java's an OK language for web apps. Not great, but adequate. That's all. Every Java client app I've seen recently, from text editors, to IDEs to multimedia run like I've got a P90 and a 1st gen 3d card. In my experience, C or C++ is faster across the board, regardless how piss-poor the coder is.
"when Java is Open Source, how will standards compliance be enforced ?"
Open-source software tends to be more standards-compliant than closed-source software, so I imagine a better question would be "unless java is Open Source, how will standards-compliance be enabled?"
I almost joined the ranks of people criticizing this project as a waste of time. Putting 2-D windows into a 3-D environment doesn't give you any advantages, especially if you just project it back onto a 2-D viewing screen.
But let's have some imagination. The idea is obviously to eventually make this environment immersive. This would allow you to place windows all around yourself. And instead of separate virtual (2-D) desktops, you would have separate virtual "rooms." Our current input device (mouse) is also 2-D, and we would need to move to something more practical in a 3-D environment.
Of course, it goes further. Windows are currently 2-D because the viewing screen is 2-D. If you have a 3-D viewing system, then your windows can be 3-D, too. Applications don't have to fit into rectangles; they could be cones, spheres, or dodecahedrons. They could even be irregularly shaped and have qualities like malleability and ductability.
Also, our widget sets are limited by the fact they're displayed on 2-D screens now. What kind of control widgets could we create when things can be moved in three dimensions? It opens up lots of possibilities.
It's just unfortunate that the screenshots they are showing don't actually take advantage of the fact that there are three dimensions. But this is only because application writers haven't caught up to the new "windowing system." It's not because the idea doesn't have merit.
Accountability on the heads of the powerful.
Power in the hands of the accountable.
Uh, have you SEEN Java games that use OpenGL? It's a disgrace. I can't believe people like you bother to defend it.
I have, but apparently you haven't. Let me introduce you:
Wurm Online
Cosmic Trip
Alien Flux
In my experience, C or C++ is faster across the board, regardless how piss-poor the coder is.
You mean, in your bias C or C++ is faster across the board. From your first paragraph, it seems obvious that you've never used any serious Java apps. OTOH, it may very well be the result of a new syndrome that's been forming. People don't know they're using Java! A perfect example of this is the #1 BitTorrent app, Azureus. It looks and works so good that no one questions what is under the hood!
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Much easier to use than the unrealistic "desktops" of yopre, wher I can only make a huge mess of things on two axes!
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
I've found that people tend more to fork when there's no standard, and they don't like the way the current author is taking the package, rather than for the sake of extending or abandoning standard interfaces... OR when the current author is failing to keep up with standards and they need to fork to remain compatible.
I really suspect Sun's problem is more that they want to retain control over the standard than that they're afraid it will get forked.
Yeah, of course it's lame. So are all the silly animations that the Mac OS does by default. But silly rotating things is by and large the direction things are going to be heading. Afterall, Microsoft isn't the only one who realises that the average user only needs a word processor, web browser, media player and possibly a messenger program. So why would they get a newer computer if they can run all those features more then adequatly on an old computer with a large hard drive. Because it wouldn't be 3D accelerated.
The problem with computers is, for the average user, they are more or less fast enough to do everything a person who isn't a gamer, or graphic artist needs. So now people need to make them unnessecarly obsolete. It's all part of the big bad (intentional) bloat.
The Neo-Bohemian Techno-Socialist
This seems like they are trying to model the desktop after real world objects. If you have a document sitting on your desk and need to make a comment about it, you likely add a PostIt note with your comments, write in the margins, or write on the back of it. As for comparing it to the "properties' dialog, I'm sure this will be a matter of preference to users (how many users actually populate any of the optional metadata fields?).
I never write comments about documents on the back. What would be the point of that - I want the comment where I can see it and the thing it's commenting on at the same time, so comments get scrawled in margins. Postits are only useful for little "fax this off today" memos as they come unstuck in a pile of papers. Something more like annotations in acrobat is much nearer the way that everyone I know prefers to work.
This seems more like a concept project more than a working environment. Think back to the virtual reality days when all interfaces would be VR. This makes a cool demo, but may not be useful in a real world environment. Example: The CD Jukebox is a cool presentation, but with hundreds of CD's, this is not a practical interface into the repository.
The problem is that computer displays simply don't have enough resolution, and that you can't use depth preception on a flat screen. See, I can walk into my office, and in a couple of seconds select any one of the 500-ish books on the shelves - I know where they are, and I know that my copy of, say, Jackson, is thick, red and hardback.
Virtual documents don't have the same physical cues - you could represent documents as pictures of thick or thin books etc., but I remember that I saw a plot in a particular book partly by how the book felt in my hands - how thick it was, what size its pages were, whether the pages had yellowed with age etc. You can't do any of that with a screen.
If you had enough resolution, you could have a picture of a bookshelf, with little pictures of books whose titles you could just about read. That might be a useful interface for some people, but you'd need at least a factor of 5 better resolution in each direction for that to be doable.
Looking Glass runs on Java 3D (also open sourced today) which basically goes straight to the wire on Linux, Windows and Solaris. This may come as a suprise to folks out here in Slashdot land, but actually Java is pretty damned fast when implemented well.
Looking Glass will run on a decent (1.8 Ghz+) laptop with a decent laptop graphics card.
Looks fantastic, its also great to use and the funniest bit is all of the Windows and Mac people looking at a GUI which looks cooler than the best efforts of MS and Apple.
So you don't need to upgrade to a top of the line machine with a top of the line GPU. You need a decent machine with a decent card.
Java... its faster than you think.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
You may not have thought you were trolling, but you are not being entirely reasonable either. You can define arbitrarily narrow versions of the ebooks question in which your answer is correct, but it is not generally true.
It's not particularly insightful to note that not every technology prediction made 5 or 10 years ago has come completely literally true, whether it was made in print or in a televised advertisement. Picking some very narrow interpretations in order to beat up on AT&T for that is, if not trolling, very troll-like.