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Sun to GPL Project Looking Glass
elleomea writes "According to The Register, Sun is releasing Project Looking Glass, their new GNU/Linux based 3D window managing system, under the GPL during their JavaOne conference (beginning today)." The screenshots of Looking Glass make it out to be very pretty. I'm not sure if I have the spare CPU cycles to power such an environment, but it's sure nice to drool over.
Here's hoping it's as functional as it is good looking, or it is all for naught.
Physics is nothing like religion. If it was, we'd have an easier time trying to raise money!
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Stick Men
Yes, it is very nice looking, but how does it improve my interactions with the computer? The whole tilted window thing looks good but i dont think it'll be a huge bonus when it comes time to actually use it... I'd rather use those CPU cycles for something worthwhile i think...
drunk chemists
Is this some sort of high-concept System Shock 3?
Where's SHODAN? Where are my cybernetic zombies?
Looks like they dumbed down the interface so they could an X-Box port as well.
Shame shame.
I guess my subject pretty much expresses my enthusiasm. It's nice to see this coming from Sun. Looking Glass looked really cool, but I was always concerned that they wouldn't open it. Now with this news, it should allow desktop developers to try new things.
Pretty cool stuff.
Jason Lotito
"This is a UNIX system! I know this..."
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
I mean, come on, everyone *want's* the latest and greatest, it's just those of us who can't justify it that don't actually go out and buy them :-)
:-)
:-(
Personally I've stuck with a Matrox G450 for what seems like the longest time simply because it was the one of the first (and the best) at dual monitor display, and I *like* that - 3200x1600 displays are really nice when you've lots of editor windows open
Ah well, if it does take off, guess I'll be getting an nVidea or ATI card, which means a PCI-X motherboard, might as well throw in an Athlon-64 (maybe FX), and I'll want PC3200 RAM. Damn that's an expensive desktop
Simon
Physicists get Hadrons!
And think in the nice animations and graphic effect of MacOSX, if they are happy with it, maybe will not be so bad under Linux.
Instead of wasting time of super cool, awesome 3D spinning, rotating and flipping translucent windows with shadows, how about establishing some GUI standards for Linux to make it easier to use for the grandmas and grandpas of the world. No amount of Linux screen real estate bling bling is going to make it a better OS for the common user.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Very true. I was going to post about whether eyecandy was really what the Linux Desktop needs right now. I mean, I embrace it as another choice that you can use, and sure, it's nice to have something that looks different, but will it actually change any ways in terms of usability? The reason why I minimize windows is so that I have more desktop real estate; if it becomes a nice 3d-ed perspective window, it's not really doing much. I applaud Sun for GPLing this. I wonder where this project will go.
Just from looking at the screenshots, I see zero reasons why this would be better then a traditional 2d desktop. In alot of ways, its inferior to a normal desktop, not to mention the wasted cycles spent rendering the damned thing.
... does it really help you know what your document is, be seeing some strangely distorted side view of it? Perhaps things like 3d navigation could be handy... the ability to not only scroll up and down, but in and out... or to link relevant data not only in a tree based structure ( like the start menu ), but also group information based on relationships to other information, with perspective aswell.
Really, to take advantage of 3d desktops, we either need full immersive 3d ( alah, the 3d headsets, or perhaps holographic displays ), or the need to take a different perspective on computing then todays window'd concept. Really, what is the value of rotating a windowed view
But as it stands, just texturing an existing window onto a 3d billboard... really, whats the point? It will be interesting to see how microsoft exploits the 3rd dimension, given that avalon requires a 3d gpu to run. Hopefully, they do it better then SUN does. If I recall, there was an alternate windows manager called the Cube, that worked similar to this... what ever happenned to it?
It looks like a "pretty" big waste of time and screen real estate. The last screenshot labelled "organize" is pretty damn ugly. It reminds me of CDE turned on its side.
Here's your chance to improve upon it! Go forth and code!
I have a feeling that this project will do neither.
How pessimistic..
-adnans
"In short: just say NO TO DRUGS, and maybe you won't end up like the Hurd people." --Linus Torvalds
Which everybody seems to forget its more then a GUI, but a framework to develop 3D aplications as well.
So yes, it's a waste of cycles as a just another desktop, but plenty apps can benefit from a common 3D interface.
That is what is interesting about looking glass.
The use of transparent windows seems to be standard now, but would it be possible to create an OpenGL context which allowed the application to specify a transparent background color, which allow the current desktop to be seen underneath?Combine this with the "no window frames" option of X-windows, and some really cool visualisations could be written.
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Comment removed based on user account deletion
From a pure UI point of view, it is better than multiple desktops and multiple tabs, since they are both examples of modes (which are bad). This is conditional, however, on it being easy for the user to control. If you had a 3D haptic input device, then I would say it is a superior model for human interaction. With a mouse, I remain to be convinced.
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First, people say this every damned time an improvement is made to a GUI. If anybody listened, we'd all still be using CLI exclusively. Second, most people using their 3 GHz machine for office work most certainly DO have the spare cycles.
Additionally, it looks like the improvements will really make a usability difference in how we interact with the UI. Keeping notes on an application window, tilting the windows to keep most of the perceptual information (btw, using foreshortening to effectively compress windows is a great idea), making multiple desktops more perceptual, etc are all good ideas that will help people interact more intelligently with their programs.
I think this is a great start, and with some tightening and more well-implemented ideas, I can't wait to see this in a mainstream OS.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
Looking Glass screenshots are fun to drool over and all I guess, but IMHO the way forward is not adding further complexity to the binary-graphics desktop.
Rather, it's SVG. XML-based vector graphics allow developers to parse and manipulate graphics the way you would a web page or a config file. They also make remoting applications even easier than with a binary protocol like X. What does this mean for end users? Not a whole terrible lot on the surface. But it does make it easier for developers to apply consistent look and feel with widely-known text munging tools and also make rich networked applications; so in the end there's a significant but non-apparent user benefit.
Of course the nature of SVG is such that although it looks extremely crisp and neat, it's basically 2D. I think the tradeoff is worth it.
If you're going to go for the extra overhead anyways, SVG is a much bigger win than 2D any day.
Google confirms: Ruby is the world's most beloved programm
So just how hard is it to manipulate a 3D environment on a 2D display with a 2D input device? I've had minor problems rotating objects in apps like Poser. I can only imagine how difficult some of this could be for people with impaired movement.
Not having had the opportunity to actually try this interface, I was wondering if it take a lot of practice to get good at rotating windows and moving the object around the environment.
How does the os know that I want to move an object up along the y axis instead of "back" along the z axis?
I agree. This is lame. The screenshots and all smell to me like someone's PHD thesis.
As shown this has glaring issues:
- reading vertical text on side of windows is uncomfortable.
- how is spinning a window around to look at properties better than opening up a separate properties dialog???
- java?
- i would be suprised if human factors has been involved in project to this point.
If/when this comes to market, it will look and behave much different than shown.
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mods on crack again... serious outbreak of the old "if microsoft windows doesn't have it then there's no point in it" type of comment to anything positively different in the way of UIs. The only reason we're not seeing any posts berating the use of multiple desktops with pagers these days is because Microsoft is bringing them finally to the market in the form of Longhorn... after having had them hidden away for a long time now as an unnofficial tweakUI app. The moaners have got to go with the flow now as it's been decided for them that multiple desktops are now in... and I've just wasted my ability to moderate any posts in this topic...
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
Please tell us,
when Java is Open Source, how will standards compliance be enforced ?
When Sun gets a good answer to that question, I believe they very well may make Java more open than it is, if not make it completely FOSS. Even with it being as 'closed' as it is, it's *still* more difficult to write-once than it should be ( though easily do-able ), just because their compatablility tests don't catch the sometimes subtle bugs that application developers can run into. It's a fine line to walk; Sun doesn't want to force bug-free JVMs before a vendor can release, or they'd never get to market, but the goal of cross-platform compatability requires nearly bug-free or bug-compatable VMs. It's a tough enough task without some independant developer with GPL'd source deciding to release a 'tweaked' version that doesn't support 90% of javax.swing.*, just because they're 'only targeting platform XYZ" or whatever.
It's very well to argue that Java should be open source, but to do so without addressing the issues involved is almost like trolling...
And yes, I agree completely that open source is good, but what exactly does Sun have to gain by your proposal ?
That, and how off-topic is Java from the story at hand? Way, way off-topic.
I mean, c'mon, how frickin' cool would it be to have this kind of 3D desktop running on an Opteron-based Linux machine with a really nice graphics card in it? Damn! You should be singing the praises of Sun right now, what's wrong with you, man, what's it take to get you excited ?!? You get FP and *that* is the best you can do, a tired old "what about Java" bitch ?!? This is about a cool 3D desktop demo going GPL !
I know Mr. AC is trying to be funny, but this crap really pisses me off. For one, JAVA IS NOT SLOW. It gained that reputation back when it lacked a JIT compiler. Sun corrected that problem pretty fast, but the idea just won't go away. Granted, some of the APIs are such that they can appear to be quite slow to those who don't know what the hell they're doing. I'm always hearing from people who say "My game only runs at 10 FPS! Whaa! Java Sucks!" To which I usually reply "Are you using BufferStrategy, the core of the 2D gaming API?" The Deer-in-the-Headlights looks on their faces are priceless. To which they then mumble something about thinking Swing was somehow the way to write games.
Secondly, the Looking Glass project uses OpenGL. I don't care what language you're using, OpenGL performance is limited by the video card and bus, not by the CPU. If your 3D apps are slow, it's because you don't know what the f*** you're doing. That goes for C, C++, Python, Ruby, and yes: JAVA.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Please tell us, when Java is Open Source, how will standards compliance be enforced?
Big fucking sticks.
SQUEAK, the Death of Rats explained.
I find Sun's choice of pretty background pictures very distracting when attempting to evaluate the merits of this desktop system, and I'm sure this was intended as a marketing trick. I would have preferred shots with a plain background to really see the features of the desktop.
In fact, this shot is nothing more than the background! (and the 3d version of a standard 2d taskbar) They say, "Just imagine what is possible if it were live video." -- It's more like, "Imagine a pratical use for this '3D' desktop".
Reading through the posts I see numerous people complaining about how this is pointless and a waste of cpu cycles and has no benefits over a traditional 2D desktop.
You are failing to realize that by open sourcing this project, sun can harness the creativity of the open source community to improve this project and make it into something you would actually want to use on a daily basis instead of just a gimmick to show off to your friends.
This is a step in the right direction and I am excited that they are releasing this.
File JAVA and its promise of platform independance away with all those AT&T commercials from the mid 90's that promised you would soon be able to check out and read entire books via the internet, make video phone calls, and perform remote heart surgery with their new technology.
All that stuff is possible now, unless you're referring to how long it took to do it.
-Dizzle
"I most likely AM so interested in myself."
- reading vertical text on side of windows is uncomfortable.
It seems to work for books just fine. Most people are quite adapted to handling vertical text when they're quickly looking for something.
- how is spinning a window around to look at properties better than opening up a separate properties dialog???
For one, it provides a "link" between the action and the result. A common problem in windowing systems is that users perform an action, then have difficulty understanding the response. Anything you can do to eliminate the "magic" of desktop items and make them more like real world objects will be of help to the user.
In addition, the window flip provides a much more natural "mode" than a properties box. Many properties boxes attempt to make up for a lack of modal nature by locking out the underlying application and forcing the properties box on top. This leads to confusion on the part of the user as their application appears to have locked up. Things get particularly bad when popup boxes somehow get hidden in the OS. (e.g. obscured by another window or somehow behind the parent window)
- java?
Why not? Back in the day, OSes were written in ALGOL, Fortran, LISP, and just about everything else. Generally, this would link the OS to its language for a complete development environment. It wasn't until Unix became popular, that C became "standard". It was actually a very poor choice for a language, but the computers of the day really cried out for the performance benefits.
- i would be suprised if human factors has been involved in project to this point.
It strikes me that they already have been involved.
If/when this comes to market, it will look and behave much different than shown.
Who has shown it? In fact, name one company that has succeeded in creating a usable 3D desktop? You probably can't, because all the other implementations are too far out to left field. Sun took the approach of incremental change and appears to have succeeded.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
check out and read entire books via the internet
make video phone calls
perform remote heart surgery
Uh, done
LETS DECOMPOSE & ENJOY ASSEMBLING
It's great that Sun has GPL'ed this desktop, but it has absolutely zero chance of mainstream Linux adoption. Why? Because it requires Java to run, and the Java environment itself is not open source. Remember the whole KDE debacle about Qt not being free enough? Multiply that by a few million times and you'll see why Looking Glass won't make it past "gee, that's cool" in the Linux world.
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I almost joined the ranks of people criticizing this project as a waste of time. Putting 2-D windows into a 3-D environment doesn't give you any advantages, especially if you just project it back onto a 2-D viewing screen.
But let's have some imagination. The idea is obviously to eventually make this environment immersive. This would allow you to place windows all around yourself. And instead of separate virtual (2-D) desktops, you would have separate virtual "rooms." Our current input device (mouse) is also 2-D, and we would need to move to something more practical in a 3-D environment.
Of course, it goes further. Windows are currently 2-D because the viewing screen is 2-D. If you have a 3-D viewing system, then your windows can be 3-D, too. Applications don't have to fit into rectangles; they could be cones, spheres, or dodecahedrons. They could even be irregularly shaped and have qualities like malleability and ductability.
Also, our widget sets are limited by the fact they're displayed on 2-D screens now. What kind of control widgets could we create when things can be moved in three dimensions? It opens up lots of possibilities.
It's just unfortunate that the screenshots they are showing don't actually take advantage of the fact that there are three dimensions. But this is only because application writers haven't caught up to the new "windowing system." It's not because the idea doesn't have merit.
Accountability on the heads of the powerful.
Power in the hands of the accountable.
Uh, have you SEEN Java games that use OpenGL? It's a disgrace. I can't believe people like you bother to defend it.
I have, but apparently you haven't. Let me introduce you:
Wurm Online
Cosmic Trip
Alien Flux
In my experience, C or C++ is faster across the board, regardless how piss-poor the coder is.
You mean, in your bias C or C++ is faster across the board. From your first paragraph, it seems obvious that you've never used any serious Java apps. OTOH, it may very well be the result of a new syndrome that's been forming. People don't know they're using Java! A perfect example of this is the #1 BitTorrent app, Azureus. It looks and works so good that no one questions what is under the hood!
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
I couldn't agree more. The last thing I want to see is a repeat of the gigantic mess caused by the many incompatible Perl and Python forks floating around.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
I'm not sure if I have the spare CPU cycles to power such an environment, but it's sure nice to drool over.
The whole point of looking glass is that the 3d environment rendering is offloaded onto the GPU, leaving your CPU to handle tasks that it was originally designed for, rather than drawing all the windows and other stuff it was not designed for.
"When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon
Much easier to use than the unrealistic "desktops" of yopre, wher I can only make a huge mess of things on two axes!
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
"check out and read entire books via the internet"
Searches for Anne McCafferey, R.A. Salvatore and Ray Bradbury all resulted in No results. This is not what AT&T promised, nor would it be classified as "soon".
"make video phone calls"
Nice site with a clearly written disclaimer at the top that as of June 4th, 2004, these phones were still months away. Further reading into the text shows that the site highlited these phones because they could "record more than a few seconds of video". That is not a video phone. I just moved from Japan where phone technology is where it should be and they STILL do not have the video phones AT&T promised in their commercials.
"perform remote heart surgery"
Thanks for the article about the kidney surgury. Also if you actually read it you will see that the surgury WAS NOT done remotely, there was just a doctor on the other end of the line talking someone else through the proceedure. AT&T's commercials showed a doctor wearing computerized gloves guiding the motions of robotic hands holding the scalpal.
The real kicker of it all is that I got modded Troll for making a legitimate comment on failed promises and you got modded Insightful for linking to three articles that did not actually demonstrate anything other than I was right.
gotta love the slashdot mods
ray bradbury
I've dirtied my hands writing poetry, for the sake of seduction; that is, for the sake of a useful cause. --Dostoevsky
Looking Glass runs on Java 3D (also open sourced today) which basically goes straight to the wire on Linux, Windows and Solaris. This may come as a suprise to folks out here in Slashdot land, but actually Java is pretty damned fast when implemented well.
Looking Glass will run on a decent (1.8 Ghz+) laptop with a decent laptop graphics card.
Looks fantastic, its also great to use and the funniest bit is all of the Windows and Mac people looking at a GUI which looks cooler than the best efforts of MS and Apple.
So you don't need to upgrade to a top of the line machine with a top of the line GPU. You need a decent machine with a decent card.
Java... its faster than you think.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi