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Fedora, SuSE And Mandrake Compared
gmuslera writes "This weekend 2 comparisions were made between latest Fedora, SuSE and Mandrake Linux distributions. The first one was done by FlexBeta and in general goes deep, done by people that seem to know Linux, and good around its 9 pages. The later one was done by The Washington Post (yahoo news link) and shows another view of those 3 distributions, from someone that seems to dislike Linux and don't know enough about it. In what of those extremes are the average new user experience with those distributions?" Update: 07/06 01:01 GMT by T : Note that long-time Washington Post tech writer Rob Pegaroro doesn't seem to dislike Linux -- far from it; he's just writing what he sees as truth.
The only Linux based distro I've tried recently was Suse... and it blew me away. Previously, Linux Distros in general, weren't too friendly and you had to spend a lot of time configuring things yourself. When I installed Suse, EVERYTHING was detected on my text box... which is no small feat considering I had some rather obscure hardware in there. It literally blew me away... I don't think I've seen anything better than YAST at this point, even in my best case senario with Windows installations. Unfortunately, I can't say much about Mandrake or Fedora... but Suse was enough to convince me (and some other very leary friends) to make the switch. Mainly because of Yast itself.
It would seem to me that new users would know nothing, if not less than the Washington Post guy, at any rate. Plus, unless they had some friends that ran Linux, they'd probably dislike it as well.
I've been using Linux (almost exclusively) for probably 8 or 9 years now. I set out to install Mandrake 10 on my new network last week (old thinkpad laptop and new shuttle MB). It took me several days and lots of "ifup" hacking to get my Netgear WG511 wireles card finally working. (It still causes a 60s pause during bootup, but I'm happy that it works)
I still can't get xdmcp to work right. What the hell are all those MIT_MAGIC_COOKIE-1 errors that I'm getting from my Xserver?!?
Linux is great and all, but it requires more persistance than most people have. I think that Washington Post fellow struck the correct tone. Linux still isn't for everyone. Maybe when more hardware vendors get on board and release open drivers....
It was in that "Mysterious Future" box that us subscribers get ;)
/^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
Am I the only one who is getting tired of these "One Distribution _MUST_ be better than the others" articles? They never comment on that fact that open source means you can mix and match features for the perfect distribution. We need some sort of "Festivix: A Linux for the Rest of Us" that will capitalize on that fact, instead of leading readers to think that the Linux market is fragmented and dying.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
For the Windows user, one might tend to gravitate toward Mandrake for preconfiguration. Some say it's too dumbed down.
For the tinkerer, one might tend to gravitate toward Fedora for ease of use and configurability. Some say it's buggy.
For the admin, one might find that Suse fills their need for control and power. I can't comment too much on Suse, I only know one person who runs it.
These 3 distros don't even scratch the surface of what's out there. I'll elaborate on a few other distros.
Gentoo, Slackware & Debian: For those who wish to learn by doing. These distros do very little to automate your installation and configuration.
Be prepared to read man pages, how-to's, and write config files.
Slax, Knoppix and a number of other Live CD distributions: For those who want it running NOW.
These distros are running from boot with little configuration thanks to hardware detection and automatic module loading.
LFS (Linux From Scratch): For those who want intimate knowledge of the inner workings of their system.
This distro takes much time to get running....and...it's not really a distro as much as a set of basic instructions.
As I stated in the subject, there are a number of distributions to suit your level of expertise and style of system administration. When choosing a distro, be aware of the available support options and understand that Linux is (for the most part) a 'help yourself' kind of Operating System. In some cases you can pay a support team to assist you, but in most cases you should expect little direct (one on one) assistance.
My suggestion.....if you've got a buddy who's a Gentoo guru, you should run Gentoo because you've got a support system and someone to mentor you.
"Lame" - Galaxar
This will instantly be modded as flamebait, I know -- but he's right. For all the open-source community is waiting for that eleventh hour of deliverance when an intern in a cheap Penguin suit exclaims publicly that "the era of the Linux desktop is here" -- it's not happening for a while.
Why? Because every post thus far has been about why the gripes he has about various distributions can be simply, oh-so-easily changed by typing a few lines into a prompt, or replacing this file with that file -- or "God no, not the command line, sarcastically".
A few days ago I was teaching my friend how to use a few command line programs (like 'ls' and 'cd') in FreeBSD. This ended up turning into a two hour circus regarding where the spaces go.
Yes, the command line is that bad for normal people. And even a dancing paperclip?
YES, YOU IDIOT!! THE PAPERCLIP TOO!
Especially the paperclip. I don't care if it's a dancing penguin that takes up your entire screen, if it ends up being annoying as opposed to just plain hard for the normal user, that's a step up.
While I don't advocate the command line is removed as it offers a great level of flexibility, things shouldn't stay more difficult just because they can. It's this kind of mentality that stops a more widespread adoption of linux on the desktop. Distros are thankfully making the user experience more enjoyable and not targetting them solely at geeks.
;) and I don't think the conclusions are all that differ. Each offer their advantages, Suse seems to be the most polished. I'd been a mandrake user previously, might be worth taking a look at suse next time.
That being said, I've read both articles (and no I'm not new here
Glenn
The Smrt way to trade CFDs on the ASX
Can't you see the fundamental wrongness of the bias presented here?
I mean, the write-up clearly soft-peddles the advocate review and downplays the consumer-oriented review. I think it is because the first review panders to the satisfaction unix-monkeys get in knowing the arcane and counter-intuitive technologia extremis of Linux, and condemn the consumer oriented approach for its simple, direct perspective of coming at Linux with no pre-conceived notions. The things they mention in the Washington Post article are quite accurate, if you are new to the Unix system layout paradigms.
The thing that bothers me is that there is an undercurrent of hysterical hatred for anyone speaking frankly about Linux and her Unix derived cousins. It's as if the question of OS somehow meant something deeper than what you have installed on your computer. All sorts of strident idealism and contempt for different opinions grip this community, and the community welcomes it!
This same undercurrent pops up from time to time through history, and it is quite dangerous! Consider all the book burning, witch hunting and other such miserable episodes in our collective past, and realize that what drove (and drives today) those awful episodes is the same contempt for difference that lies at the heart of the slashdot bias.
Now, I certainly don't want to conflate the relatively benign Linux over-advocacy problem and the tragedy of those horrible times in the past, but you people should realize that if you start allowing yourself to act like this here and now, indulging in what amounts to simple-minded bigotry, what is to stop you from carrying through with that thinking in realms more directly related to personal liberties, civic safety and common decency?
It's high time some of you stepped up to the plate and decry such flagrant ill manners along with me. It's not a matter of MSFT or APPL vs. Linux, it's a matter of being a decent human being. This sort of indulgent wankery is not decent at all.
yeah. Command line is bad. Sometimes (Don't flame me, I'm a unix admin). If i'm sitting on my bed with a wireless mouse, and want to toss on some mp3s, I want at least the option ot just double click on a playlist. If a friend who has never sat at my computer before wants to load up a movie, I'd rather have them be able to click on an icon rather than try to figure out whatever cryptic command-line method there would be to do the same thing.
The fact is, for a lot of things, GUI is better. And a desktop, in most cases, is one of these things. I really love a GUI, but at the same time, i really Need to be able to slip under the GUI into a command line mode when i feel the urge.
+5 insightful? more like "-1, cleverly disguised flamebait" I'm sure you already understand the use of a good GUI. Meanwhile, chances are that you're composing this from windows XP.
Not very intuitive. Unlike Windows where everything is easy. Like when you want to get rid of those annoying balloon tips in XP. All I had to do is open the registry, go to HKEY_CURRENT_USER, find Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer \Advanced
change the dword value of EnableBalloonTips to 0, restart the computer and I was done!
GUI designs are great as long as you don't won't to do something the designer didn't take in to account. If you do, realize that systems follow a standard practice, in Windows you typically edit the registry, in *nix systems you typically edit a text file. Do a quick Google search, and you can usually find an answer to what file to edit, and what value to change.
This assumes:
1 That the distro has a manual written for someone new to Linux.
2 That a newcomer can be good at extracting useful onformation from Google. Not a trivial skill in itself.
3 That he knows what IRC is and how to use it effectively or how to find an appropriate mailing list for a beginner.
Regarding the "Linux, Still an Awkward Alternative". article:
He should point out that Mandrake is free, if you want to download it. I have distributed literally thousands of copies. The article seems to imply that you have to buy it and compares the cost to MS-Windows.
Mandrake Move is the same concept as SuSe live, and you can download that for free, also.
I have installed Mandrake 10 on perhaps 10 different types of machines so far. Not once did it fail to "graphical system configure a graphical interface automatically".
He said " Unfortunately, to install any of these versions without wiping out most Windows installations, you'll need to buy a third-party program to partition your hard drive." That is just completely false. Mandrake will non-destructively repartition any MS-Windows partition.
He should clarify on "None supported the laptops' modems" to the readers that none of the modern laptops include real modems, only "win" modems which are proprietary and designed to work only with MS-Windows. Even so, 80% of them can be made to work under Linux, but it is not a super-easy task.
He also said this: " That brings up Linux's biggest embarrassment: software installation. Outside of core system updates (ably handled by each distribution's auto-update software), my attempts to add new programs were routinely stymied by the chancy availability of prepackaged downloads and "dependency" issues, in which the installation failed because the computer lacked needed library files." Dependency problems do not occur with any of the many thousands of software packages included in Mandrake 10.... only when you download generic packages off the web.
And this: "The better solution is the smart package-installer Fedora employs; its "yum" utility fetches a program from an online archive, resolves dependency issues and sets it up with one command." Both SuSe and Mandrake can do the exact same thing. Mandrake, for example, uses urpmi. If you set up a software mirror, you will be presented with a graphical point-and-click interface. Installing any package is just a click.
I should have known from my overflowing inbox that my story had gotten posted on Slashdot...
Well, after reading all 118 e-mails to date and re-reading the column itself, I'd like to address the questions that have come up about it. I'll start by addressing the contention that I am some sort of shill for Microsoft: Please read a few of my recent columns and tell me if you think I'm doing any favors to the good people in Redmond.
Second, the "why didn't you cover distribution X, Y and Z?" question. Since there are only so many hours in the day, I decided I'd only look at distros using the 2.6 kernel; I'd also only look at the distributions readers might already recognize--either by seeing them for sale in computer stores, or by seeing books about them in bookstores.
Third, my comment about NTFS disk partitioning. Throw all the rotten tomatoes at me that you want, because I got this wrong; SuSE and Mandrake can resize NTFS partitions, although Fedora and many other distros cannot. (Granted, there are apparently a few bugs in their implentation of this, but still...)
Fourth, the "what's so hard about using the command line?" gripe. Command-line interfaces have gone out of style in consumer operating systems for Very Sound Reasons. They're not remotely "discoverable"--unlike a row of menus or toolbar icons, a blank command-line prompt has no way of telling you what you *can* do. They're unforgiving--one typo in the command and it won't work.
Fifth, my complaints about the problems of installing software in Linux: The results I reported came from my attempts to install software as most Windows refugees might: by downloading fairly well-known applications (for instance, Firefox and AbiWord) and double-clicking them once they had landed on my desktop.
I went on to note that there are automated package-installers, then focused on Fedora's in particular (I did give Cobind's YumGUI a whirl too, but since that's a) in beta and b) not included with Fedora, I can't consider that the answer). I could have discussed Mandrake's rpmDrake instead, in which case I would have criticized the way it's buried four menus deep (will any new user even think to look under the "Packaging" sub-menu?). I also could have used SuSE's YAST2 as an example, in which case I would have had to note how this was smart enough to alert me of dependency issues while installing downloaded SuSE RPMs, but not smart enough to fix them automatically.
If anybody's actually read this far, I'd add that my goal in this column was to try to assess these three releases not as a Linux expert might find them, but as somebody moving from Windows might find them. I.e., the vast bulk of the potential user base.
I personally found all three of these distributions quite usable once set up properly--certainly much more so than the versions of SuSE, Mandrake and Lycoris that I reviewed two years ago, or the Red Hat release I tried out in late 2002--but that doesn't mean that, say, my brother or my mom would put up with the initial setup work. And I'd be lying to readers if I didn't tell them that.