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Fedora, SuSE And Mandrake Compared
gmuslera writes "This weekend 2 comparisions were made between latest Fedora, SuSE and Mandrake Linux distributions. The first one was done by FlexBeta and in general goes deep, done by people that seem to know Linux, and good around its 9 pages. The later one was done by The Washington Post (yahoo news link) and shows another view of those 3 distributions, from someone that seems to dislike Linux and don't know enough about it. In what of those extremes are the average new user experience with those distributions?" Update: 07/06 01:01 GMT by T : Note that long-time Washington Post tech writer Rob Pegaroro doesn't seem to dislike Linux -- far from it; he's just writing what he sees as truth.
Where was this last week when I was looking for this exact comparison?
The only Linux based distro I've tried recently was Suse... and it blew me away. Previously, Linux Distros in general, weren't too friendly and you had to spend a lot of time configuring things yourself. When I installed Suse, EVERYTHING was detected on my text box... which is no small feat considering I had some rather obscure hardware in there. It literally blew me away... I don't think I've seen anything better than YAST at this point, even in my best case senario with Windows installations. Unfortunately, I can't say much about Mandrake or Fedora... but Suse was enough to convince me (and some other very leary friends) to make the switch. Mainly because of Yast itself.
It would seem to me that new users would know nothing, if not less than the Washington Post guy, at any rate. Plus, unless they had some friends that ran Linux, they'd probably dislike it as well.
Hello,
I recently read your FastForward article on the Washingtonpost about how Linux is still an awkward alternative. Towards the end you mentioned:
"That brings up Linux's biggest embarrassment: software installation. Outside of core system updates (ably handled by each distribution's auto-update software), my attempts to add new programs were routinely stymied by the chancy availability of prepackaged downloads and "dependency" issues, in which the installation failed because the computer lacked needed library files."
Are you getting these packages from the servers of the distribution you are using? You should only download rpms which are specifically built for the linux system you are using. For example, if you are using Mandrake linux 10.0 Official Edition, you should only download packages which are built for Mandrake linux 10.0 Official Edition.
But really, on Redhat/Mandrake based systems, you should use urpmi or the graphical installation managers that come with the distributions; they all manage dependency issues for you, if you have your mirrors set up properly.
I primarily use Mandrake linux, and I can almost always find packages I am looking for in the main or contrib sections on the online mirrors.
There is a great site for managing mirrors on Mandrake systems, it's http://www.urpmi.org/easyurpmi
This allows you to easily add main, contrib and external mirrors. You can use these in the Mandrake Control Center, which is a GUI interface that makes installing much easier than the command line.
Also, much of what makes linux what it is, is the community that surrounds it. There are many support channels on irc.freenode.net where you can get support for any issues you may have. Using a chat application such as X-Chat, you can connect to FreeNode and type
Where distributionname is the name of the distribution you're using; e.g.
or
etc.
Linux certainly isn't as friendly to new users as other operating systems such as MacOS or Windows, but in order to honestly evaluate the distributions, it's important to take into account the communities that surround them. Linux is definitely a different breed of operating system, and should be treated as such.
The main reason why distributions don't tout the communities is because the communities are not officially affiliated with the distributions. It is entirely a volunteer based system, and you can get any number of different types of people in those channels, ranging from experts who have worked for years in the field, to new users like yourself.
I know you're probably not looking to use linux as an operating system, since it doesn't seem from your article that you are seriously considering it, but it might be nice in the future to mention some of the things I have, to get a more complete picture.
Thanks!
I've been using Linux (almost exclusively) for probably 8 or 9 years now. I set out to install Mandrake 10 on my new network last week (old thinkpad laptop and new shuttle MB). It took me several days and lots of "ifup" hacking to get my Netgear WG511 wireles card finally working. (It still causes a 60s pause during bootup, but I'm happy that it works)
I still can't get xdmcp to work right. What the hell are all those MIT_MAGIC_COOKIE-1 errors that I'm getting from my Xserver?!?
Linux is great and all, but it requires more persistance than most people have. I think that Washington Post fellow struck the correct tone. Linux still isn't for everyone. Maybe when more hardware vendors get on board and release open drivers....
several of the gripes the reviewer mentioned about fedora can be solved by the following:
/etc/sysconfig/init
/usr/share/pixmaps/splash/gnome-splash.png
/apps/nautilus/preferences/always_use_browser -s true
# get rid of the graphical boot in fedora
edit the
GRAPHICAL=no
# change your gnome splash screen
replace
# reset nautilus to default browsing
gconftool-2 -t bool
Am I the only one who is getting tired of these "One Distribution _MUST_ be better than the others" articles? They never comment on that fact that open source means you can mix and match features for the perfect distribution. We need some sort of "Festivix: A Linux for the Rest of Us" that will capitalize on that fact, instead of leading readers to think that the Linux market is fragmented and dying.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Hello--I used Mandrake exclusively for a couple of years on a Dell Laptop. It was the easiest system to install & use.
However, I wanted to learn Linux more, so I'm trying Gentoo & Debian. I like Gentoo's "from scratch" installation & that I can choose each item. However, emerging sucks--if I need to get something done but need new software, it's a pain in the ass to compile every freakin' program & dependency. I don't have time to sit around & wait for the process to complete.
Debian on the other hand didn't let me choose my kernals or bootloader. Thus, I was stuck with 2.4.x + Grub as the default. What's more, without a working network connection, Sarge's installer froze at the point where the installer tries to download security updates. How crappy!
I want Gentoo's choices with Debian's precompiled packages (Portage apparently gives you the choice to use precompiled packages but I cannot access them without a network card.)
Mandrake was by far the easiest to use but I didn't learn anything in the process.
OS X is great but makes me feel guilty because I love KDE & IMHO, OS X is not all that compared to KDE/Linux. Konqueror by itself makes KDE absolutely amazing. But OS X works & is really really awesome if you're not comfortable with Linux or are used to Windows. It can do some amazing things.
Unfortunately, to install any of these versions without wiping out most Windows installations, you'll need to buy a third-party program to partition your hard drive.
Do any of the Linux Distros come with some sort of "Magic Partition" style software that can be run on install? If not, this might be a very nice addition. I know Live CD allows you to try out Linux without risk to your windows install, but a partition manager that creates a linux or windows boot up automatically would be very cool. And of course, the windows partition could be mouted under linux and directories like "My Documents" could be linked into the GUI on Lunx.
Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein
For the Windows user, one might tend to gravitate toward Mandrake for preconfiguration. Some say it's too dumbed down.
For the tinkerer, one might tend to gravitate toward Fedora for ease of use and configurability. Some say it's buggy.
For the admin, one might find that Suse fills their need for control and power. I can't comment too much on Suse, I only know one person who runs it.
These 3 distros don't even scratch the surface of what's out there. I'll elaborate on a few other distros.
Gentoo, Slackware & Debian: For those who wish to learn by doing. These distros do very little to automate your installation and configuration.
Be prepared to read man pages, how-to's, and write config files.
Slax, Knoppix and a number of other Live CD distributions: For those who want it running NOW.
These distros are running from boot with little configuration thanks to hardware detection and automatic module loading.
LFS (Linux From Scratch): For those who want intimate knowledge of the inner workings of their system.
This distro takes much time to get running....and...it's not really a distro as much as a set of basic instructions.
As I stated in the subject, there are a number of distributions to suit your level of expertise and style of system administration. When choosing a distro, be aware of the available support options and understand that Linux is (for the most part) a 'help yourself' kind of Operating System. In some cases you can pay a support team to assist you, but in most cases you should expect little direct (one on one) assistance.
My suggestion.....if you've got a buddy who's a Gentoo guru, you should run Gentoo because you've got a support system and someone to mentor you.
"Lame" - Galaxar
Depends on what you're doing. SuSe seems ok at leading newbies by the hand from what I remember, a task out of reach for Fedora. However, for an advanced user the newbie-friendliness can be a pain.
Personally, from these 3 I'd choose Mandrake, too - mostly because can fit more bills easy enough. The official release, if set up properly, is actually quite usable by newbies; and for tweaks, Cooker is the bleeding edge. Not to mention the boon that is PLF ^_^
From the Post:
Unfortunately, to install any of these versions without wiping out most Windows installations, you'll need to buy a third-party program to partition your hard drive.
Which is, of course, wrong. Using parted and a graphical frontend like QTparted, you can easily resize partitions. The last SUSE install I helped out with had a partition resizer during the install. Did they take this feature out?
Let me begin this with the disclaimer that I am fairly new to Linux. I can do all of the basic stuff fairly well, but when it comes to having to hack out wierd stuff that doesn't work right off the bat, I'm...well, deficient.
/dev/sda1 to /mnt/jump and I'm all set. But for some reason Mandrake doesn't set up an sda1 and I'm too newbed to know how to fix that myself.
Anyway, my first choice for Linux is definitely Mandrake. The interface is beautiful, fast and easy and it runs stable (I've had some stability problems with Fedora) all of the time. So why don't I used it? Well, first of all, Mandrake HATES my trackball mice. I have two of them, one from Logitech and one from some other company I can't remember. Anyway, both the mandrake install and mandrake itself refuse to recognize these mice. That wasn't too too bad, I can handle using the regular kind of mouse. But then came the USB problem. No distribution of Mandrake that I have tried up to and including 10.0 liked my USB flash drive. On Fedora I just mount
The final thing I have against Mandrake is its configuration tools. Fedora comes with a nice set of tools to configure all of the stuff I want to use / customize and it always works. Mandrake's on the other hand, have a bad habit of reverting to the settings it liked without even trying my new ones.
I'm running Fedora 2 right now and it works fairly well and does all of the stuff I need it too (it's much better than Fedora 1 for reliability IMHO), but as soon as Mandrake gets to liking my trackballs and jumpdrives I will have no hesitation in switching over.
If you can't say something nice, make sure you have something heavy to throw.
Yes command line is bad for a beginner.
Command line lets the user input commands providing he already knows beforehand what commands he has at his disposal.
A graphical interface displays the commands, and lets him chose. This requires, obviously, much less knowledge beforehand.
When i learnt abt Linux, I dont know for some reason i chose Redhat .Looking back , Its the marketing for Redhat that pushes into the lead whne the compettition is tight.Easiness of use , good looks , robustness , help and support were the features that i relished.I never compared Redhat with other flavors as i was busy customizing my linux to defeat the co existence of windows .
And i never looked back for other Flavors.
Moral is : First impression is the Best impression.
Hello , this is my way.
Which way is yours ?
btw there is no right way
I like the idea of forcing people to the shell (or "command line") a little now and then.
It's like owning a car; sooner or later you HAVE to pop the hood and have a look, maybe refill the oil or something.
Forcing users to the shell will, eventually, teach them how the OS works. Or at least, give them a brief idea on what's going on "under the hood".
I remember back in the good ol' days when you bought the C64. You were handed the computer and a manual. You had to tune the TV yourself, and hell, you even had to type in BASIC programs by hand. This way, many users learned BASIC and became software developers -- like myself.
From the Post:
The better solution is the smart package-installer Fedora employs; its "yum" utility fetches a program from an online archive, resolves dependency issues and sets it up with one command. It's a clever system. Except -- duh -- there's no graphical front-end to it, forcing users to use a text-only, command-line interface.
Cobind has a GUI
This is a grapical partition editor that is shipped with several distros.
It allows you to resize/move/delete/create/etc, as one would expect.
I dont have a list, but i know that it comes with Mepis, and a couple of 'rescue-distros'.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
One thing that may work wonders is to just change some of the syntax to something perhaps easier to understand. For instance, instead of "mounting hda0", change it to "browse (disk label name)". Refer to a "window management system" not as a graphical interface but as the desktop or icons. Most people know what you mean when you say desktop or icons, but if you get into the KDE vs GNOME argument here then people will just get confused and leave.
As far as the Washington Post article reads I can relate to it. I tried using Linux before knowing how to code - that's rough. After learning a bit of c and c++ (enough to do some basics) I found it much easier to comprehend why things act the way they do. Perhaps Linux could stand to have an average Windows user hanging out by a programmer's desk saying "Why does that do this?" and "Can't you make this happen?". For example, my mom, who happens to be a nurse, has been attending a developer's conference in Oklahoma lately because the hospital is purchasing some new software being developed exclusively for them. Rather than just work off of the hospital's "to-do" list the developing agency asked for 15-20 end users to come down, play with the software, find any points of contention, and the developers would take care of it. I velieve this went on for 3 times at 2 weeks a pop, and the end result is a piece of software that cost a bit more to develop but was created with the end user, not the programmer, in mind.
I do believe that Linux's time is coming soon. I think the major sticking point might be some fragile egos and the "Well, EVERYBODY SHOULD know how to compile from source, download dependencies, and run command line syntax that looks like a keyboard went under a hammer." (I saw a comment in an earlier thread suggesting that ANY end user ought to be able to run complex command line code. Alas, this is not going to fly in the face of Windows or Macs, where command line is secondary to the GUI, whereas in Linux is is the exact opposite). I'm not asking for dancing paperclips or those damn pop-up balloons that won't go away...just an easy way to accomplish what can be done at the command line.
"This food is problematic."
This will instantly be modded as flamebait, I know -- but he's right. For all the open-source community is waiting for that eleventh hour of deliverance when an intern in a cheap Penguin suit exclaims publicly that "the era of the Linux desktop is here" -- it's not happening for a while.
Why? Because every post thus far has been about why the gripes he has about various distributions can be simply, oh-so-easily changed by typing a few lines into a prompt, or replacing this file with that file -- or "God no, not the command line, sarcastically".
A few days ago I was teaching my friend how to use a few command line programs (like 'ls' and 'cd') in FreeBSD. This ended up turning into a two hour circus regarding where the spaces go.
Yes, the command line is that bad for normal people. And even a dancing paperclip?
YES, YOU IDIOT!! THE PAPERCLIP TOO!
Especially the paperclip. I don't care if it's a dancing penguin that takes up your entire screen, if it ends up being annoying as opposed to just plain hard for the normal user, that's a step up.
First I had Windows 98. I deleted that because it was too unstable.
Then I had Windows 2000. It ran well, but I deleted it because it was a pirated copy.
I deleted Debian six months ago because I didn't like being told everything on my system was unstable.
I deleted Gentoo one month ago because it took two weeks to install on my 650mhz computer. And two days to do big updates.
I'm using Mandrake 10 now, but I don't like it either. KDE is too busy for my tastes, and though I'm going to switch it to Gnome eventually, I really just want Irix.
Eventually, I'm just switching to one of those linuxes that boot straight to a PVR interface when they support my ATI AIW.
Did have a winmodem ?
Suse never got mine to work.
This article submission was written by someone that seems to dislike English and doesn't know enough about it.
Show me on the doll where his noodly appendage touched you.
- granted, one of the reviews was published by the Washington Post, or as it is more affectionately termed by the clueful here inside the Belchway, "The Washington Fishwrap," due to its many mindless liberal-biased headlines and stories... - however, Pegoraro has regularly covered Linux/OSS issues in the Fishwrap's Tech section (hidden inside an embarrassingly small Business section for a major daily), such as Red Hat's distros and OpenOffice.org... he has done so with an objectivity not found on other tech sites (hint, hint: OSNews??) - it's frustrating to read about 'Joe Six-pack' views of Linux-based operating systems... - but frankly, while Pegoraro's views have not always been 'spot-on Linux knowledgable,' they have been objective... - my point? give the guy a break, send a *nice* email (you do know how to do that, right?), and be helpful! - i suspect, and IIRC, he is a Mac OS X user...
While I don't advocate the command line is removed as it offers a great level of flexibility, things shouldn't stay more difficult just because they can. It's this kind of mentality that stops a more widespread adoption of linux on the desktop. Distros are thankfully making the user experience more enjoyable and not targetting them solely at geeks.
;) and I don't think the conclusions are all that differ. Each offer their advantages, Suse seems to be the most polished. I'd been a mandrake user previously, might be worth taking a look at suse next time.
That being said, I've read both articles (and no I'm not new here
Glenn
The Smrt way to trade CFDs on the ASX
Geez, some of the partition foolery that I've gotten up lately to would frighten the pants off of the old Windows-using me of the past. QParted and GParted are my new favourite software tools.
Can't you see the fundamental wrongness of the bias presented here?
I mean, the write-up clearly soft-peddles the advocate review and downplays the consumer-oriented review. I think it is because the first review panders to the satisfaction unix-monkeys get in knowing the arcane and counter-intuitive technologia extremis of Linux, and condemn the consumer oriented approach for its simple, direct perspective of coming at Linux with no pre-conceived notions. The things they mention in the Washington Post article are quite accurate, if you are new to the Unix system layout paradigms.
The thing that bothers me is that there is an undercurrent of hysterical hatred for anyone speaking frankly about Linux and her Unix derived cousins. It's as if the question of OS somehow meant something deeper than what you have installed on your computer. All sorts of strident idealism and contempt for different opinions grip this community, and the community welcomes it!
This same undercurrent pops up from time to time through history, and it is quite dangerous! Consider all the book burning, witch hunting and other such miserable episodes in our collective past, and realize that what drove (and drives today) those awful episodes is the same contempt for difference that lies at the heart of the slashdot bias.
Now, I certainly don't want to conflate the relatively benign Linux over-advocacy problem and the tragedy of those horrible times in the past, but you people should realize that if you start allowing yourself to act like this here and now, indulging in what amounts to simple-minded bigotry, what is to stop you from carrying through with that thinking in realms more directly related to personal liberties, civic safety and common decency?
It's high time some of you stepped up to the plate and decry such flagrant ill manners along with me. It's not a matter of MSFT or APPL vs. Linux, it's a matter of being a decent human being. This sort of indulgent wankery is not decent at all.
yeah. Command line is bad. Sometimes (Don't flame me, I'm a unix admin). If i'm sitting on my bed with a wireless mouse, and want to toss on some mp3s, I want at least the option ot just double click on a playlist. If a friend who has never sat at my computer before wants to load up a movie, I'd rather have them be able to click on an icon rather than try to figure out whatever cryptic command-line method there would be to do the same thing.
The fact is, for a lot of things, GUI is better. And a desktop, in most cases, is one of these things. I really love a GUI, but at the same time, i really Need to be able to slip under the GUI into a command line mode when i feel the urge.
+5 insightful? more like "-1, cleverly disguised flamebait" I'm sure you already understand the use of a good GUI. Meanwhile, chances are that you're composing this from windows XP.
Context makes him sound reasonably informed. You sir, are either trolling, or functionally illiterate.
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
Fedora is an RPM based distro. Fedora's default desktop is GNOME. Fedora's GNOME does not have a default file association for *.rpm files. DUMB
When you do have a program associated with RPM, you can double-click the RPM, only to spend a few minutes realizing that each of the packages you downloaded need each other installed first. Sure, you can do an "rpm -ivh blah-*.rpm" from the command line (or whatever the switches are - I don't use RPM distros anymore), but is it so freaking hard to have the graphical RPM tools "see" the other RPMs sitting right there in the same folder, and handle them intelligently? DUMB
Way, way, way, way too many packages that aren't available through the distro's repositories themselves. There's only about a dozen RPM repositories for Fedora Core to chase various packages down from. This is the one biggest thing that makes me dump SuSE every time and head back to Gentoo. Instead of Pacman and usr-local-bin and etc. etc. etc., would it really be so hard to have a "contributed" repository maintained by SuSE (and "known" to YaST at install time), where these places (and god knows what others) just submit their packages to? Virtually everything I can imagine, I could get through Portage in Gentoo. Why can't the "big" distros have their prebuilt package repositories be similarly comprehensive? It was such a task for one of my buddies to get/install divx4linux - all the guy wanted to do was watch a little pr0n on his fresh Linux install! Even though it's not that hard, nobody should *have* to fall back on tarballs and ./configure / make / make install. DUMB
There's a lot of little things that keep pissing off potential Linux users, and sending them back to Windows. It's the "little things" that the Mac platform usually does so well. It's those same "little things" that Linux distros, desktop environments, etc, need to pay attention to.
All of them are about the same.
What I recommend is Fedora, this is because of the widespread support of Yum and the abundance of online sources of RPM repositories.
Dag, FreshRPMS, and a couple others offer much of the software that Fedora lacks by default.
Yum makes it easy to update your OS, install new programs etc etc.
In fact I beleive that tools like Yum and Apt are the killer application for Linux.
Hundreds of programs at your fingertips, just type apt-get install progrname, or yum install progname, and you have your program.
No messing with dependance, chasing down RPMs on obscure home sites. All that dependancy hell solved for ever and ever and ever.
Plus you guess what?!
YOU KEEP YOUR OS UP TO DATE.
By installing programs you keep your OS up to date.
yum update
yum install software
Apt-get update
apt-get upgrade
apt-get install software
Then you have GUIS like synaptic for Apt and you'll have nice ones for Yum shortly.
No security patches go unpatched. If you want nice new games or programs you keep you OS up to date by default.
Good stuff, easy to use, modiretly easy to setup.
Something that Mandrake's urpmi and Suse's Yast tools aren't even close to as good as Yum for Redhat/Fedora and Apt for Debian.
NO MORE DEPENDANCIES TO DEAL WITH. Wasy, and third parties fill in the blanks for things like libdvdcss and other programs.
He had has a lot of other "facts" wrong. He indicates that fedora core2 costs $199 at one point, and also implies that to install Linux on a Windows partition reqauires buying some partitioning software, which is wrong, since at least Mandrake and SuSE will repartion a disk no-destructively. As a journalist goes, his ability looks limted.
------ The only greater hazard to your liberty than n politicians is n+1 politicians.
IMHO the place that these distro's keep missing the target is when they try to do too much for too many.
Linux is massively customizable by its very nature regardless of how it's packaged. So let the people that want to customize every little aspect of their system figure it out for themselves.
A desktop disto should be a windows workalike or work-better. Like Mozilla's Thunderbird or Firefox. That's how you steal market share... work better.
The desktop distro should be able to do (and do well) everything that a windows box can do from a default install. Workalike interface, SMB networking, browsing, mail, music and video, brainless hardware detection and configuration, printing, and IM. Out of the box, default install.
Anyone who has an answer to the question "KDE or Gnome?" does not need this sort of distro, But the rest of the world does.
If you want to see unix working better than windows on the desktop then you need look no further than OS X. OS X has it's problems too (like being handcuffed to Apple hardware), but it can do all of this out of the box, it's *nix and my grandma can (and does) use it.
Over the last 8 weeks I have installed 2.6 based kernel systems: Mandrake 10, Fedora C2, Knoppix 3.4 and Suse 9.1.
I used 3 platforms:
a. An old AMD K2 350 b. VM Ware c. A 2.6Ghz P4
Personal assessment:
1. Sound - alsa is better than 2.4 OSS
2. All distros were easier to install and manage than there previous kernel 2.4 offerings
3. I liked Suse9.1 the best (mainly because of YaST and ease of mangement)
4. I liked KDE better than Gnome (don't flame - it just my preference)
I had used RHL 8 in the past - this was an eval on my part - I'm now a Suse fan.
You want a signature? You can't handle a signature!!
"Oh God NO!!!! Anything but the command line. I need pretty pictures and maybe a dancing paper clip thingy. It's too much to remember a few commands."
When other OS's don't require it, then yes, it is too much to ask. It's annoying to go have to look up commands when it's dirt simple to create an interface that asks appropriate questions.
Whoop-de-de, you can use a CLI, you're so elite.
"Derp de derp."
Oh God NO!!!! Anything but the command line. I need pretty pictures and maybe a dancing paper clip thingy. It's too much to remember a few commands.
It's not so much a need as a preference. Can new users *really* be bothered to learn how to use the command line? No. Should all users have to drop to command line? I don't buy it. Does lack of command-line use make an Operating System inferior?
No, look at how Apple do it. Most 'new users' WANT their bright shiny GUI interface and won't want to dig under the hood to get things working. I'd say the need to drop to command line a lot is the main reason a lot of people don't switch to Linux (probably second after it's inability to run games without the likes of Wine or WineX). The command line looks daunting to new users. Big shiny buttons that tell you exactly what they do look easy. First appearances count for a lot, as does ease of use. command-line does not look easy-to-use. Be it an installer, a program or the whole OS, if it looks easy to use, if it is easy to use, a lot of people will use it. A lot of people dont care about the technical details and 'getting to know their computer', they just want a quick and easy way to get everything done so they can do their work (or play). Just ask the guys at Apple.
Oh, and leave Clippy alone, Clippy is your fr... OK, I concede that one, Clippy is a bastard.
Dealing with lawyers would be a lot less tedious if they all looked like Casey Novak.
things shouldn't stay more difficult just because they can
Who is keeping stuff more difficult? The opposite is happening. We're keeping the command line as it is, and adding a desktop the system. It's the bleacher pundits who are the ones advocating removing a complete command interface just to spite the intermediate and expert users.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
Here is the answer to the question you almost asked:
http://rpm.pbone.net/
I actually thought the mainstream media account was pretty well-balanced. I've used multiple distributions, including Red Hat, Mandrake, Debian, and most recently, Gentoo.
Many of the experiences I've had match what the author experienced. I have yet to have a distribution where everything worked 100% out of the box. I've run into numerous occasions where I've had to play musical chairs with RPMs to get things to install.
I generally have had pretty good luck sorting out these problems out since I'm a pretty advanced computer user, but I have also had problems that were very perplexing. I could see how the experience for a user who does not have the experience or the inclination to spend hours configuring their computer would still find the experience daunting.
While the author brings up all of these issues, he also notes that some of these problems are due to poor manufacturer support. He also expresses faith that the user interface problems with yum will quickly be solved. The fact that a mainstream news outlet would note Linux's strong security record and mention it as a strong possibility for replacing Windows is encouraging since it will raise the visibility of Linux for the mainstream.
I've seen great improvements since starting to use Linux. I enjoy the fact that my scanner now will only work on Linux, while the drivers for Windows 2000 are fairly worthless. Gentoo has been pretty satisfactory on my 64-bit Opteron, while Microsoft is still not shipping 64-bit Windows XP.
Let's acknowledge that works needs to be done and keep improving. I'm looking forward to trying new versions and seeing this platform mature.
======
In X-Windows the client serves YOU!
This assumes:
1 That the distro has a manual written for someone new to Linux.
2 That a newcomer can be good at extracting useful onformation from Google. Not a trivial skill in itself.
3 That he knows what IRC is and how to use it effectively or how to find an appropriate mailing list for a beginner.
Slightly older manual for Mandrake. Definately written for some one converting from MS Windows with things like "Where is my Start Menu?".
Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
Well just reading your answer, the email you sent him, prove the Washington Post guy points. Reread yourself, it's awfull the stuff you consider normal and easy, and by the way, "almost" is not enough.
going on chats to install stuff or find it is totally counter-intuitive, even more when you need info. Hell, IRC is counter-intuitive! I never have done IRC more than 20 min. in a row, too much commands, specifications, preferences, abreviation, assholes... if you have to go trough this "simple" step to understand how to install a software, you're doomed. And I'm not a noob or something I just consider knowing the equivalent of a dictionnary to use a software stupid, I'm the type of geek that prefers productivity, simplicity and getting the work done, not marveling in front of my supa skillz mastering the chat commands and understanding every acronyms in existenz!
Regarding the "Linux, Still an Awkward Alternative". article:
He should point out that Mandrake is free, if you want to download it. I have distributed literally thousands of copies. The article seems to imply that you have to buy it and compares the cost to MS-Windows.
Mandrake Move is the same concept as SuSe live, and you can download that for free, also.
I have installed Mandrake 10 on perhaps 10 different types of machines so far. Not once did it fail to "graphical system configure a graphical interface automatically".
He said " Unfortunately, to install any of these versions without wiping out most Windows installations, you'll need to buy a third-party program to partition your hard drive." That is just completely false. Mandrake will non-destructively repartition any MS-Windows partition.
He should clarify on "None supported the laptops' modems" to the readers that none of the modern laptops include real modems, only "win" modems which are proprietary and designed to work only with MS-Windows. Even so, 80% of them can be made to work under Linux, but it is not a super-easy task.
He also said this: " That brings up Linux's biggest embarrassment: software installation. Outside of core system updates (ably handled by each distribution's auto-update software), my attempts to add new programs were routinely stymied by the chancy availability of prepackaged downloads and "dependency" issues, in which the installation failed because the computer lacked needed library files." Dependency problems do not occur with any of the many thousands of software packages included in Mandrake 10.... only when you download generic packages off the web.
And this: "The better solution is the smart package-installer Fedora employs; its "yum" utility fetches a program from an online archive, resolves dependency issues and sets it up with one command." Both SuSe and Mandrake can do the exact same thing. Mandrake, for example, uses urpmi. If you set up a software mirror, you will be presented with a graphical point-and-click interface. Installing any package is just a click.
He is wrong to say that installation must be done from the command line. In SuSe, when clicking on an rpm file using Konqueror, a page with a description of the RPM wil come up and there will be a button saying "Install with Yast2". Click on the button, and the package is installed if there are no dependency issues. If there are dependecy or package conflict issues, Yast2 wil point it out. I am a laptop user, and have installed SuSe on several laptops. As far as the hardware, SuSe has picked up all my hardware, so long as it is a new distro and the hardware has been out for six months. I've yet to have the same exprience using MS Windows. With MS Windows, you have to hunt down for the drivers on the web. In the end, though, it is the responsibility of the hardware vendors to provide the drivers. You cannot possibly expect a distribution to write drivers for every single piece of hardware out there. It is neither fair not logistically possible.
" Unfortunately, to install any of these versions without wiping out most Windows installations, you'll need to buy a third-party program to partition your hard drive."
Nobody told me that! I've installed Mandrake 8.0, 9.0, 9.1, 9.2 and 10.0 on computers with pre-existing Windows 95, 98, 98SE, ME, 2K and XP. Not once have I ever required anything but the Mandrake and Windows CD's.
So now I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. I guess all those computers are going to burst into flame or something because I didn't purchase a third party program?
. Quit playing Monopoly with Bill. Switch to one of many non-Microsoft products today.
I should have known from my overflowing inbox that my story had gotten posted on Slashdot...
Well, after reading all 118 e-mails to date and re-reading the column itself, I'd like to address the questions that have come up about it. I'll start by addressing the contention that I am some sort of shill for Microsoft: Please read a few of my recent columns and tell me if you think I'm doing any favors to the good people in Redmond.
Second, the "why didn't you cover distribution X, Y and Z?" question. Since there are only so many hours in the day, I decided I'd only look at distros using the 2.6 kernel; I'd also only look at the distributions readers might already recognize--either by seeing them for sale in computer stores, or by seeing books about them in bookstores.
Third, my comment about NTFS disk partitioning. Throw all the rotten tomatoes at me that you want, because I got this wrong; SuSE and Mandrake can resize NTFS partitions, although Fedora and many other distros cannot. (Granted, there are apparently a few bugs in their implentation of this, but still...)
Fourth, the "what's so hard about using the command line?" gripe. Command-line interfaces have gone out of style in consumer operating systems for Very Sound Reasons. They're not remotely "discoverable"--unlike a row of menus or toolbar icons, a blank command-line prompt has no way of telling you what you *can* do. They're unforgiving--one typo in the command and it won't work.
Fifth, my complaints about the problems of installing software in Linux: The results I reported came from my attempts to install software as most Windows refugees might: by downloading fairly well-known applications (for instance, Firefox and AbiWord) and double-clicking them once they had landed on my desktop.
I went on to note that there are automated package-installers, then focused on Fedora's in particular (I did give Cobind's YumGUI a whirl too, but since that's a) in beta and b) not included with Fedora, I can't consider that the answer). I could have discussed Mandrake's rpmDrake instead, in which case I would have criticized the way it's buried four menus deep (will any new user even think to look under the "Packaging" sub-menu?). I also could have used SuSE's YAST2 as an example, in which case I would have had to note how this was smart enough to alert me of dependency issues while installing downloaded SuSE RPMs, but not smart enough to fix them automatically.
If anybody's actually read this far, I'd add that my goal in this column was to try to assess these three releases not as a Linux expert might find them, but as somebody moving from Windows might find them. I.e., the vast bulk of the potential user base.
I personally found all three of these distributions quite usable once set up properly--certainly much more so than the versions of SuSE, Mandrake and Lycoris that I reviewed two years ago, or the Red Hat release I tried out in late 2002--but that doesn't mean that, say, my brother or my mom would put up with the initial setup work. And I'd be lying to readers if I didn't tell them that.
Thanks man, I almost literally spit pop all over my keyboard.
"I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
Yes. Fedora, SuSE and Mandrake approach Linux differently. So what? So does Gentoo and thirty other distros at least one person on earth "swears by".
Let's lay to rest the distribution game and start working together for one common goal: Linux that works well enough to replace a desktop OS in business, one that a COO has confidence in.
This distro squabbling is what's holding Linux back. After all, isn't Open Source for us all and not for specific distros?
This is my $0.02.
---
IMHO, of course.
May the SOURCE be with you.
Sure, you can roll your own, but most people don't want to. Let me restate that: Sure YOU can roll your own, but most people CAN'T. Just because it can be done doesn't mean the general public is capable. If you can't deal with that reality don't read reviews intended for the general public.
See this.
Is it reliable?
Yes, it is reliable. Since July of 2002, when ntfsresize became publicly available, there were countless success reports for both enlarging and shrinking Windows XP/2000/NT4, Windows Server 2003 and Longhorn NTFS filesystems on both workstation and server versions (Home, Professional, Server, Advanced Server). No destroyed filesystem was reported who followed the instructions correctly.
Let me just agree with the parent. I am a many year windows user, and have taken courses in college in server linux setup, mail, ftp, etc... but this was in RedHat 7.0. I never really was a Linux guru, and hadn't used it for 2 years so I am rusty at best. I just picked up SUSE 9.1 Pro for $90 this past friday, and have run into this sort of attitude trying to get help from the supposed linux community (as I don't believe SUSE tech support was open late at night or would cover getting nVidia 3d working (BTW - what legalities in distroing it...??? I paid SUSE, can't they license it from nVidia or something?)).
.4 I think(Worms clone found in happypenguin site I think). Any pointers, or step by step for SuSe 9.1 Pro of course appreciated.
Let me just say that they were less than helpful. Forum posts were unanswered, even today (Ok, it's free - but most people don't wait 4+ days for help). Chat rooms were downright rude!
Now, I guess I approached the chat rooms wrong, but I really doubt many people go into a chat room and ask for help until they have exhausted their knowledge of other information sources. I at least try the vendor's site. There I got redirected to a SUSE howto so I didn't try google, I tried to follow those instructions.
Not helped by dial-up, the US servers are atrocious, and the german ones fail at least 30% of the time where I am. This right away leads me to wonder wth? So I keep messing around, and figure out it's just network issues. So I finally get YaST to download "information" about updates - this takes a good hour. What the heck info is THIS??? When it finishes, it says "no updates available"
Now, I know this is wrong, or the HowTO is wrong, cause the HowTo says to select "install nVidia drivers" from a list that I think is supposed to appear here. But - there is no list.
Now, nowhere in the HowTo does it say what to do if there isn't a list or option in YaST. So I join an IRC chatroom #Linux in freenode. I'm ignored completely for about 30 min, I take the hint and try elsewhere.
I try Yahoo linux, solaris, bsd room. Here I impart the above information, am promptly told RTFM, and that I am stupid, and iggyed for being a moron.
Well thank you very much, I think I'll go back to WinXP now where I can at least manage to install nVidia drivers gasp without a manual ! So I give up for a while and do some useful stuff in windows (which works).
Then I decide I am taking the easy way out. Rinse and repeat above.
Ok - third try is the charm, some nice person listens to my problem in yahoo, and tells me that I have to "reload all patches" from the server, and this is not enabled in YaST by default for some reason... and if I don't check this, YaST wasts a long time downloading something, but doesn't actually do anything. Well, I should have guessed! I normally wouldn't reload something unless I had already had some values previously loaded.
I do this, and presto it works! YAY!
Most people I think would have concluded that SuSe is broken, Linux's vaunted community is populated by assholes, and go back to windows not to look back for another 2 years (if ever) and used maybe even ended up with Longhorn.
Ok, this is something that will have to change. Even the yahoo windows rooms aren't this dismissive - far from it in my experiance. There people don't auto ignore you for asking (of all things) "Can I ask a question?" or "How do I download something?". At least these people get some help - they have to act far dumber than I was to get put down and Iggyied.
Maybe MS free supporters expect a much lower IQ, IDK, but they certainly make those looking for help feel more welcome. Linux will never get on the average users machines if they are insulted trying to get the basics to work.
Now, I'm on a quest to try and install something not listed in YaST. Similar results. FYI its Worx
Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
Did you use the feature that lets you verify the content of the CD-ROMs before installation? That question comes up automatically from the first CD when you first install. Almost certainly you had an incorrectly burned CD.
The Fedora installer craps out if it finds a single uninstallable RPM file. It doesn't try to soldier on, because the philosophy goes that an unstable system is worse than an uninstalled system. You can argue that point with RedHat if you want.
I have been burned with the same issue (mine was a faulty CDROM drive, but the result was the same). Since then I take the time to checksum the CDs before installation.
it's really getting on my nerves !!! ANY modern distribution has an automated dependency checking and HUGE online repositories with up to date software and makes software installation as easy as it can be. But there are still comparisons between suse, fedora and "real" distributions, ignoring the web forums are FULL of suse and fedora users whining because of dependency issues. DROP that stupid suse and fedora and get to a modern distro in the year 2004! Mandrake has an equal system to debian and also huge online stable and testing repositories. Software installation is super easy. Last time i was sitting aside a suse user and told him he had to install cups, he went to "www.cups.org" and stared at me. Any more Questions about "fedora and suse -users" ?
I agree, sort of. This is one thing I think windows does a much better job on. X should figure out the card AND MONITOR on the fly, and if unable to then load up in generic vga mode. At that point a graphical util comes into play to correct what it picked up on or to tell it what you have.
Either way, since almost all monitors support a fairly small subset of standard modes nowdays there is no excuse for X not being able to handle me plugging in a different monitor every hour in a fashion which is 99% transparent to me... what it does now is fail to load the gui if I plug in a different monitor.
He says in his piece you have to buy a third-party partition manager to install any of these distros in a dual-boot configuration.
This may have been true five years ago - it's not now. Mandrake at least can resize even NTFS partitions during the install.
Which means his article is about as accurate as Bush's next statement about "WMDs".
He also drags up the notion that installing Linux is a nightmare of unsupported hardware - which is also no longer true (in most cases).
It's just more bullshit FUD.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
I installed SuSE 9.1 professional 64bit yesterday on my AMD64. It worked like a charm...
It detected my SATA controller and HDD in the blink of an eye. (WD on a Promise controller of my Asus K8V mobo)
Konqueror has a flash plugin installed out of the box. This is supposed to be a big issue on 64bit distro's, but SuSE manages this just fine.
I installed the nVidia driver update through Yast and reconfigured X (also trough Yast - SaX) with 3d acceleration without a problem. Tried out UT2004 (bought the SE DVD) and this runs very smooth.
Though I have not tried any other 64bit distro, I strongly doubt they'll be as easy to set up as SuSE 9.1 is.
Now if i could just get my eMagic MT4 USB MIDI Hub to work i could finally get rid of my Win XP installation... but i won't see this happening very soon.
Anyway; Nice Work SuSE!
Okay I tried Fedora 2 as soon as it got released and all I can say about it is that I was disappointed. The kernel upgrade via rpm permanently out-of-synced my clock, and in general the distribution was very sluggish even on my P4-1.6 GHz 768 MB laptop. The default GNOME 2.6 included with Fedora 2 still needs lots of refinement and even basic menu editing is made inaccessible to the users by fedora 2 folks apparently due to some bug with GNOME menu. So right now KDE seems to be the only way to go, and that is having first cleaned up the horrile customization done to it Fedora 2 people. There is XFCE 4.0.5 lightweight desktop environment included in the installation disks but not in the anaconda installer. How could they have forgotten to include this? XFCE is a very good alternative over GNOME and KDE especially on old hardware. I haven't tried Suse or Mandrake because I am myself a Slackware fan and very satisfied with it. The recently released Slackware 10 is excellent and after a bit of compilation, installation (kernel, mplayer, kermit, openoffice, etc...), and customization it stands out to be a pretty solid linux distro.
I have to say that the last time I installed Windows XP on my home built AthlonXP machine, it was no cake walk either. Ok, getting windows up in its most basic functionality is simply a matter of following the prompts. However, after the install completes, there is still the matter of installing specific drivers for every piece of hardware. I'm not just talking about the video, sound, ethernet, and modem cards). But also a handfull of main board specific drivers.
This problem is not just limited to my homebuilt machine either. I have a Gateway laptop, and after reinstalling Windows XP, I had to go through a lengthy driver installation procedure that hung in the middle on the first try.
On the other hand, I've been very impressed with SuSE linux. I was a big Red Hat user before they changed their business model. My machine at work is still running RH 7.3. But my home desktop and notebook both have SuSE 9 (notebook 9.1). Installation was very simple. No complicated installation of countless drivers. Even the driver for my NVIDIA video card was available automatically through Yast.
In the Wash. Post article the author states incorrectly that none of the linux distros can automatically repartition your windows drive to setup a dual boot. This is incorrect. SuSE does include whatever the latest version of the partition shrinker software is (I used FIPS for this long ago, but don't know what it is called now). The resizing happens automatically, if you accept the default partitioning scheme. Granted, you still have to be smart enough to defrag your windows partition first and have enough free space at the end of the drive. But even my mom could understand that.
And this is why Linux isn't a desktop OS. And may never be.
Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3