Slashdot Mirror
HP Markets Cheap 4-User PCs To African Schools
Kracs writes "HP are supplying their low-cost multi-user 441 desktops to African schools. Running Mandrake Linux, and sporting four screens (1xTNT2 AGP, 3xTNT2 PCI), keyboards and mice (1 PS2 set, 3 USB sets) they provide relatively cheap computer access for up to four users (of particular interest to schools in low economic zones).
However, according to this article on New Zealand's Xtra news page they've only manufactured enough to outfit schools in South Africa. HP has commented that they're talking to several organisations and are hoping to bring the PC to market in other regions but have stated they will only be marketed to developing countries." (Remember, there are also home-grown methods to achieve similar results.)
Each PC had to serve 256 users! And the monitors were black and white... and our keyboards had only 7 keys... and our mice were dead! And we LIKED IT.
Something on the common desktop that could tax a 2 Ghz PC.
It always amuses me when people think that a fast computer is going to help them type better.
These should be standard issue in school labs where office apps are the main focus.
(Sorry, I just couldn't resist.)
~Dr. Weird~
No, not the car... the computer. The fact that a system like this (while not exactly thin-client X-term material, nor a WYSE text box) would get produced indicates that when the going gets tough, the thin(er) client model makes sense. How soon until someone expands this to 8 terminals? (All you'd need is a PCI-expansion slot and a higher bus speed.)
With this, you can still have the decently-performing graphics of a direct VGA connection, while enjoying to cost benefits of reduced CPU-boxes. w00t.
Hire a Linux system administrator, systems engineer,
Guybrush Threepwood: "Look! A four-headed computer!"
(Cannibal turns around)
It would be cool if it didn't suck.
This is not a dupe post beacuse if you read they are a reseach group from UFPR university in Brazil. This post is about HP giving these computer setups to African schools. Great to see this happening (as I said in my other post)
Have you metaroderated recently?
XD it would be nice if this sort of thing was introduced in the states, but alas MS has a strangle hold it seems on pcs loaded with an OS. I for one would welcome the day you could walk into best buy and get a this. Of course maybe i should go to best buy... http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/07/06/014423 6&mode=thread&tid=187&tid=98&tid=9 9
this is the sort of thing that "restores your faith in the world" so to speak.
if hp are genuine in their efforts in helping developing/poor nations by providing them with low cost computers then this is great news.
and in answer to the question on everyone here's lips, yes, it runs linux!
I think that 1. it is really great that SOMEONE is doing something to help children in developing countries, people in the US get so much more exposure to technology (in general) than developing countries and it is really great to see a company try to help out the children and 2. I think it is great that they are using Linux, I personally think that for education and stuff like that Linux is way better, the only time I really need windows is for high performance games that neither WineX / Wine support, but in a school enviroment you dont need those kind of things so Linux is a great solution, stable, cheap, and lots of great free software
oh right, profits
what use are PCs in African schools? They've been no use where I am. They just plonk them there so parents think the school is good.
And I've seen South Africa's attempts at computer literacy.
Imagine a mud-strune shanty town. They bring in a mobile bus full of computers. There is hardly anything in computing in the particular group's language. Then someone steals the power cord.
These people don't need computers. They need an environment safe from crime, corruption & pollution. They need clean water. They need to stop getting aids.
Computers cost vast amounts of money. Multi-lingual efforts are negligable because programmers couldn't care a stuff about supporting multilingualism. What is an African living on a couple of dollars a day meant to do with his taxes being spent on thousands of dollars computer equipment? When he doesn't have a phone? Doesn't speak the language 100% of the software is in? Is he going to gain some magic from browsing all several dozen webpages in his language?
There're far more important things in life than computers.
Every time I read about some computer company offering to save poor people by offering them technology, I get so dismayed at how the geek community falls in line and agrees how great it will be for these kids. Southern Africa **does not** need computers, it needs to end corruption in the various governments so that education can be given a budgetary priority.
Jason Conrad
Follow the troll bread-crumbs to the dirty truth behind slashdot
So now when they set a million monkeys typing away to reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare, they'll only need 250,000 computers!
This is a win-win-win-win-etc situation!
'Thats they exact same thing a banana wrench monkey.'
HP and low price are incompatible terms.
Now they invented a new way - make a 4 head single CPU computer and sell it to developing countries... instead of knives and mirrors... for the price of 4 non-brand computers.
AFAIK, South Africa is not the poorest African Country.
If you really really want to do something good, make a cheap monitor, compliant to all health standards, harmless to children. It is easy to do nowadays, since nobody wants CRT monitors anymore (except for special cases).
As for everything else - many companies would gladly pay to you for taking away their outdated equipment, which is still good for schools and is definitely more powerful than 1/4 of cheap HP.
Old monitors are bad for eyes, it's the only thing that needed. And no HP, please.
four screens (1xTNT2 AGP, 3xTNT2 PCI), keyboards and mice (1 PS2 set, 3 USB sets)
(Remember, there are also home-grown methods to achieve similar results.)
That sounds pretty home-grown to me. I understand there is time to be saved in just buying it from HP, but this seems like a fairly obvious solution to the problem at hand.
====
Crudely Drawn Games
a couple of years ago.
Some very good people were running that booth. They hadn't decided exactly where it was going to be sold, but they knew who they wanted to buy it.
It was running Mandrake there, but certainly an older version. The way it came off, was that Mandrake had been chosen due to its popularity in Europe, and that the original solution was coming from the labs in France.
When it was explained to me, they were talking about giving an option to poor families in developing countries. Looks like they took a different direction.
This is the perfect use for the idea. Schools are so important, to give a less expensive option that isn't just our throw away Pentium systems is a wonderful idea.
My mom says I'm cool.
I don't know why they are targetting this at Africa. There are plenty of other countries where schools don't have enough computers. The UK for instance - many schools in the UK struggle with very low IT budgets. This would be great of them.
Perhaps they are targeting Africa so they don't tread on Microsoft's toes too much?
At the time my opinion was that Free Software was better than donating money, as it can help third world economies become sustainable, in line with teaching someone to fish rather than just giving them a fish. I couldn't back up my opinion with hard examples though. I think I will be using this story as one of my examples in the future. Does anyone else have similar examples?
If this were being sold to Nigeria I'd call it the 'HP 419'...
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
I had a computer lab in my classroom when home computers were rare. Some of the students spent many hours in that lab after school. They all ended up in different places after they graduated but some have really prospered. It is a small number but I am certain that some of my students are where they are because they had access to a computer that they could use any way they wanted.
Never mind that there are few web pages in Bantu or Swahili, Get the kids going and soon you will have many.
Never mind that only a few students' lives will really be changed by having a computer. Those few students will have a big effect on society.
The important thing is that the computers should be available outside of school hours and not just to the students. Check out the 'computer in a wall' project in India. Check out how the students in Iceland are using computers to preserve their language and culture. As long as the teachers don't get in the way, good things will happen.
This sounds great for classrooms etc, but how do you deal with peripherals such as USB-memory sticks, CD-ROM drives etc. What happens if I pop my USB stick into the computer when three other users are also working on it? Is everything shared? Or is it possible to have a USB-hub per "workstation"?
Isn't it possible to save money by running half as many video cards, each running 2 X servers? I often run both VGA ports off a single card but both on a single X server with Xinerama, but maybe there's some X limitation that prevents 2 X servers for the 2 ports on the same card. Is this possible?
Please bear in mind that about a year ago, Micro$oft offered a plethora of Software to the schools for *FREE*. This was part of their schools project. The result is that schools were not interested in running alternate OS's, as they didn't have the price factor for software.
With this type of installation/solution, it addresses the issue of Hardware. Funds are needed for PC's, and the less you have to spend on hardware the better. This solution *DOES NOT* run Windows - period. So this is the type of footholding we in SA like to see. Once the kids leave school - Linux will be a comfortable OS for them to use - unlike people numbed by the MS "Experience" .
"The Linux desktop is quite different from what students are used to in (Microsoft's) Windows. For that reason, I can't see a quick changeover," he said.
I didn't know that pointing and clicking was quite different in either system.
Moreover, users with elaborate computing needs would probably shy away from a multi-user machine like HP 441, said Nikos Drakos, an analyst with tech consultancy Gartner.
"Elaborate" is a bit of a vague word here. I don't know any software that is so elaborate that Linux couldn't handle it.
Nothing that uncommon that WINE couldn't handle anyway... and if it's elaborate enough to be clustering or scientific programs, Linux is vastly superior to Windows on that front.
Whose paying Gartner these days anyway?
"That's why South African schools make sense. But it would not work for the general knowledge worker who needs to run software programs written for Windows," he said.
Well I grew up using an Apple ][e, and somehow that never affected my ability to use Windows in the office today.... but it did make me good at the command line in Unix/Linux.
READY.
PRINT ""+-0
I am assuming that one of the reasons that HP intends to market these in developing countries is that the prices they will ask will be lower than what they could expect to get in developed countries. So, even with a discount from the purchase price after a year of use, there is a possibility that the computers could be resold to purchasers in developed countries (hobbyists, user groups, etc.) at a price point close to what was originally paid for the machines or sold at a point below the purchase price to neighboring countries even less well off. The money earned from the sale of the "old" computers goes to buying newer computers (perhaps from HP if they do their marketing right and don't stifle the resale market). In the meantime, the computers help to establish an educated populace (possibly with world access via the Internet) and the business processes involved in the export work in a small way to help establish a middle class. It has been argued that both of these factors, an educated populace and a middle class, are instrumental in the development and preservation of constitutional liberal democracy.
Bureaucracy loves company.
I'm the tech lead on the HP 441 development team in South Africa. Here is some background info on what has gone into it and where HP is going with this.
Firstly, it's extremely similar to the Brazilian effort (which is totally based on Backstreet Ruby, which is a multi-headed solution that has been around for more than 2 years now), and has been designed with the same basic ideas in mind. Both South Africa and Brazil can be termed "developing countries", and both countries are most definitely not the poorest in their respective regions. Linux , and Open Source in general, has had quite some time to bed down and influence the local market, so it would make sense that things like these would develop and happen at around the same time.
Why South Africa? Simple answer: HP has one of only two of their iCommunity centers here (url for the SA iCommunity site is http://www.hpicommunity.org.za/), the other one being in India. At the iCommunity they have intensive training programmes for the local residents ranging from job creation, culture preservation right through to computer refurbishment and even computer programming. So, the 441 system has been a logical "extention" to the ideas that they were working on at the time. Needless to say, the HP 441 system are being tested in India as well, although India has it's own challenges for such a project (over 200 official languages, go figure...).
One major item that puts the HP 441 system apart from similar efforts is work that has been done in the USB device department. As you know, the system consists of 1X AGP (using PS/2 k/b and mouse) and 3X PCI (each with it's own USB k/b and mouse). With the 441 system we have added the capability for each user having their individual sound card as well, so that they can listen to their own audio. Each user also have access to their own USB Disk-On-Key devices, ensuring privacy of personal files and so forth. Apart from this it is pretty much the same thing as done by the Uni in Brazil.
A last comment, this time on HP's commitment to Linux and Open Source in general: I'm not an HP employee, so this is not a "shameless plug". I'm employed by another company who has been contracted to help develop the HP 441 system. So far, it has been an absolute blast to work on this project, and under no circumstances can I say that HP was not committed. This product is actually on a massive "tangent" to what they normally do, so they are also in uncharted waters here. However, the commitment that HP employees have shown to us, both from the local HP offices in South Africa as well as from head office in Palo Alto, is nothing short of "absolutely bloody amazing". Let's hope that other large companies like Big Blue and others take notice of how HP pushes Open Source, sometimes at their own expense with no return at all, but doing so to invest in the developing markets. Now that's a "Way To Go" if there ever was one. One may critisize HP on a lot of things, but one thing that you cannot accuse them of is a lack of balls! :-)
Personal thanks to HP for giving me and my team the opportunity to work on this project. If you are interested in more technical info and product propaganda, here is the product page again: http://h40058.www4.hp.com/products/desktops/441/pr od_info.html
It certainly sounds good at first glance to bring computers to classrooms in Africa. But take a look at what's happened in the States.
Companies donate (usually old) machines to schools. The schools then get caught in the software upgrade cycle and end up spending more than they would if they didn't have the computers at all.
In a lot of countries a computer isn't what the schools really need anyway. Textbooks would be a lot more useful in most cases.
The man who never alters his opinion is like the stagnant water and breeds Reptiles of the Mind -- William Blake
Now put those books on computers and suddenly each student can access their own book (perhaps even make notations in the book) and have it up-to-date each year.
The cost of books is a very real problem. There have been plenty of reports of poor schools in developing region where students had to share books that had been donated decades ago from the west. While you might think that a book on math from 30 yrs ago is as good as as one printed today many teachers would disagree. Especially when the old one was printed in a foreign language.
There are two ways to use computers in teaching. One is the old "computerlab" most of us will have seen wich are mainly used to teach computer skills. But a far more usefull way of using computers is to replace books and paper and their high cost and non-updateableness. Over here we can "afford" to require new text books each year. Other countries are not so lucky.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
South Africa is no "low economic zone" compared to almost every other country in Africa. I like SA but, hey there are other options that make more sense.
Nope it's not. Nigeria has a larger GDP than South Africa by far, thanks to oil.
The HP project is targetting South Africa specifically. South Africa is a developing country, not a third world hole in the ground. Yes, the majority of the country suffers from poverty, and AIDS is a serious problem, but as far as I know even the poorest areas have food and water (unless an unusual disaster occurs), and the people there know perfectly well how to farm. This isn't Sudan, and it isn't Zimbabwe.
What South Africa needs is better education and better resources in the poor areas - because this more than anything else is what is going to improve them. If we insist on basic aid only and reject offers of computers and telecommunications equipment, we will end up with a nation of ignorant people living in the stone age, and ripe for exploitation by the rest of the world, which has moved on.
I think it's debatable if the nation can ever reach anything that could be called prosperity if it doesn't keep up with technological advances. Not all new technology is frivolous luxury. I think that internet access is a valuable tool which can greatly improve people's lives.
Earlier posters have ridiculed the idea that access to the internet can be useful to people in rural areas, since they don't speak English. However, most people in South Africa have the opportunity to learn basic English, and nothing improves your command of a language like reading lots of it every day.
I have a concrete, practical example of how the internet can help a poor person improve his life: programming skills. A person with no resources other than the internet can learn how to program in a number of languages - and this skill is potentially worth money. It may not be suited to everyone, but the opportunity is there.
What about median income (Nigeria vs. South Africa)?
The basic computer tasks of "web browsing, word processing, e-mail, and instant messaging" do not require 3 GHz machines. I mean, they haven't requires the latest-and-greatest hardware for a long time, but the hardware is growing MUCH MUCH faster than the baseline requirements for these tasks are.
So, it makes sense for a single PC to serve multiple users simultaneously.
People have pointed out that old UNIX machines did just this, but the ironic thing is that these uses are for the exact opposite reasons. Used to be that CPU time was so costly that it was necessary. Now, CPU time is so cheap that one can't help but buy more than they need, and splitting it up across users is ideal.
would be great to the this stuff in the office as well, you really don't need a 2+Ghz machine each. Sharing one would be fine - home dirs on a fileserver etc etc.
Would dramatically reduce TCO for deploying a new technology on the desktop..
I can imagine businesses that could be interested as well. A lot of offices where I have worked in Belgium, people sit in blocks of 4 and each has its own PC. They use this mainly for browsing, email, excel, word and one or two specific programs.
Almost never at the same time. It makes sense to share the PC with 3 other people. A lot is already either calculated on the server anyway and stored there, or requires less then the full attention of the PC to process.
In callcenter there are a lot of people working who do not even have their own PC, yet each workplace has its own box.
I understand that it will not be usefull for each and everybody. I however think that what most people do in an office sharing 1 PC should be enough. Perhaps HP rather wants to sell 4 then 1 box. The question is will businesses rather have 4 DELLs or 1 HP?
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
That's a good question. Most likely you would see that the average per capita income for SA would be a bit higher than Nigeria, but this is based on opinion, not fact. I'm sure a good Googling will clear that up to some extent.
What about median income (Nigeria vs. South Africa)?
The GDP per capita is
Nigeria: $800
South Africa: $10700
There are other indicators there that may give a better view of the distribution of the wealth in the countries.
)9TSS
The second OOo user is up and running in a fraction of a second, 'coz practically everything they need is already in RAM.
The thing which kills a setup like this is high-bandwidth 3D, movie decodes and other heavily CPU- or buss-intensive work.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Almost the same solution was developed 4 years ago at Moscow State Industrial Institute. It was 3-headed machine with three Matrox PCI video cards, one PS/2 keyboard/mouse pair and two USB keyboard/mouse pairs. This solution is already installed in multiple schools in Moscow city (don't know if it was installed outside Moscow), and it was called Gorynych after the Russian Mythological "Zmey Gorynych" - dragon with three heads. Link in Russian: http://www.ctc.msiu.ru/zg/
An'it harms none, do what thou wilt.
"Earlier posters have ridiculed the idea that access to the internet can be useful to people in rural areas, since they don't speak English."
That's because they don't know what they talking about. Almost every person I've met, even in the rural areas, where one of my previous jobs took me all the time, could speak, or understand at least a little bit of English or Afrikaans. This is because English and Afrikaans have always been (and still is to a large extent, although that's changing) the dominant languages to do business in. Even if that business is buying a loaf of bread, or standing in line for an ID book or to register to vote in the election.
And for what it's worth, a look on the KDE website will teach you that translations are available for a number of languages spoken in South Africa: Afrikaans, Venda, Xhosa and Zulu. I'm sure more are at least under early development at our universities. This is enough to get someone going on a computer.
As for the internet, there are a many websites available in local languages. Even google provides support for Afrikaans, Sesotho, Xhosa and Zulu. And that covers a very large percentage of the population.
The idea of bringing internet to rural areas is not so that poor hungry unschooled people can check their stocks or CNN or whatever. It's rather to aid communication and provide access to educational facilities like UNISA (www.unisa.ac.za). Education is really what it's about.
sigaar
How is about developing & using this kind of device instead of pci/agp cards? That might be able to support more "terminals"...
I have a P3-866MHz in my company with some 20+ users running Oracle. Some of them use VNC. It does a lot of nuber crunching, and runs any assorted software that people need which cannot run in Windows. I have never seen that computer using more than 3% CPU.
Our biggest problem in maintaining that machine is disk space. People are reluctant to trust their windoze machines after getting used to the reliability of a Linux server, so they start uploading a lot of stuff that should be kept in their own personal computers.
Perhaps a federal "network tax" on these machines if they appear in the U.S. -- to compensate Microsoft for their loss?
If you read closely, what the grandparent was referring to was using the 2 vga ports on a video card completely separately (as in with its own keyboard, mouse, X-Windows, desktop, etc).
This is quite different from what you typically want do which is use the two video card ports rendering half of the same (extra-wide) desktop. This is easy under both Windows (Ultramon helps) as well as X with a number of different Window Managers (Xinerama works well).
Rob :)
Reports of Nigerian 411 scams have quadrupled.
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
A quick Google for similar initiatives in India pulls up a huge number of hits, one good example being the Linux Localisation Initiative in Bangalore. The point is that HP have realised that with Linux one can empower people to do for themselves. Kinda like the "don't feed the man, teach him how to fish" story, but that is exactly what Open Source enables us to do. You should see the look in such people's eyes when they realised that they have just solved a problem not just for themselves, but for a whole community of people. Priceless stuff.
1979, Amdahl V7. 32Megabytes of RAM, running MTS (Michigan Terminal System) ran at a bit less than 2MIPS. Maxed out at about 700 simultaneous logins, but it was slow as molases at that point. It could handle about 500 users with good response time.
Granted, it wasn't quite a PC. That monster cost a few million dollars (cheap in it's day for what it could do). Along with it's hard disks, and other peripherals, it took up about 1/3 of a floor of the General Services Building at the University of Alberta.
Then there was the Xerox 9700 laser printer that could print 2 pages per second (as long as you paid attention to complexity limits). Proportional fonts and all sorts of other things... Ooh, what a toy!
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
** You always get the AGP video card, I want the AGP video card..
* No I called it! I get the AGP video card! Besides they're the same card it's just shaped different.
** Nuh uh! if they're the same then why does it matter? Huh?
* Cause I like the shape better, besides you get the USB keyboard and mouse!
*bell rings*
** I call it next time :P
---- "Excuse me. Where's the children's gun section?"
Since it is evident than ten years later Russia, India and China would have life conditions good enough and average salaries big enough to prohibit use of their people as cheap offshore programmers,
HP takes care of creating new potential pools of inexpensive intellectual labour force.
I built my computer a couple years ago, but I decided I wanted to do dual head, so I went for a special dual-head AGP card. I think I spent about $100 on it. (It's a 16 MB card; it wasn't nearly the fastest thing out there even when I built it.)
Anyway, it now seems like it'd be significantly cheaper to have put a pair of mid-range PCI cards in, rather than a single card. A single dual card might have performance advantages, but I feel like I paid through the nose for it.
Granted, this was a bit ago. It could be that it's actually cheaper to go for a dual card now. But I'd intuitively doubt it.
________________________________________________
suwain_2