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Microsoft Responds to IE Criticism
darthcamaro writes "Looks like there was an online free-for-all on Microsoft's chat servers yesterday with Internet Explorer engineers. Several interesting things come out in the story including the fact that the IE big wig thinks that all of his engineers should have other browsers installed to see what they can do and, catch this...he thinks they're the underdog. 'I've worked at Microsoft for 14 years and I have always felt like the underdog,' said Hachamovitch. 'Maybe the road behind us looks easy, but at the time going it wasn't. I welcome the feedback today. Getting informed is the only way I know to get better. The day we don't get heated feedback I'll be concerned.'" Reader nkodengar notes that "Microsoft has posted an article on MSDN listing everything that will be affected by the the updates to Internet Explorer in Service Pack 2. This will be particularly important to developers who use ActiveX controls, pop-up windows and file download counters in their websites..."
It simply isn't fair to blame Microsoft for the ignorance of their users.
If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
Perhaps MS has finally looked at themselves and figured they were behind the times with their browser technology. Sure, they might still be #1, but word spreads quick about the underlying problems and that there is actually another browser choice out there... And it's better! The security problems right now are just the icing on the cake.
Why can't you comment on them? Why wouldn't you implement the CSS3 standard? Am I missing something here?
Hmmm.
Over the years I've read several books and opinion pieces on Microsoft and their success. "Microsoft as the underdog" was a theme in many of them. I guess it's their strategy for motivating their workforce.
As a peon, what would influence you to work harder? Being told that you're the underdog and you're going to get stomped on by Sun, Apple and probably now Linux, or being told that you have a world wide monopoly in the desktop computing space and companies are throwing buckets of money at you every year despite the fact that your software is mediocre at best.
It seems like a logical thing to tell your employees. I guess they leave out the specifics of exactly where they would be classified as the underdog.
How can I tell if Internet Explorer has blocked my pop-up window?
Functions that return a window object will return null if the window is blocked. Always check the return value of window.open() before using it to avoid script errors when pop-ups are blocked.
By allowing a script to determine if the popup was blocked, it opens the floodgates for even more annoying and intrusive advertising.
Now whenever the page detects it's popup was blocked, it will force the user to view a full-screen advertising page for a pre-determined time, or other annoyances.
When will advertisers get the message. If people block pop-up windows, they do so for a reason - they are not interested in you're stupid special offers. They should spare themselves the bandwidth and everyone else the annoyance.
Microsoft will now suppress downloads not initiated by the user directly.
Along with other things like this one, Microsoft is effectively blocking pop-up ads this time around. It's should at least rival the offerings from Mozilla, OmniWeb, etc.
This is finally gone! No more shithole websites set as the default
The Political Programmer
The point is that it a user can't expect to just sit on their ass and have someone else inform them about all their choices.
It's called personal responsibility. If there is a Ford dealership close to my house and all I ever do is buy Fords, should Ford be held liable when all my cars fall apart?
Get informed. Use your brain. Own up to the fact that you have to actually make your own choices.
I always save my last mod point to mod up a good troll. You people are too serious.
am willing to take the responsibility of repeatedly kicking them in the nuts if it'll make them develop better code.
I didn't know they welcome the 'heated feedback'. Poor things...all they had to do was ask.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
someone needs a hug
Intolerance for ambiguity is the mark of the authoritarian personality.
Which, frankly, sucks because there are so many features on Firefox that I like, but it's so slow that I can't use it for everyday browsing.
My question is this: Are we so anti-Microsoft that we'll settle for clunkier software without complaint, just because it's not made by Microsoft? Where is the hue and cry for a faster, more responsive Firefox? Why do we accept things without complaint just because we admire the politics of the developers?
"Times have not become more violent. They have just become more televised."
-Marilyn Manson
Oh great, they're looking at possibly, maybe doing more to support CSS3.
WTF? I don't want them to add more CSS, I want them to get what they have working like it should.
All the designers I have worked with are mad as hell. The amount of hacks they have to use to produce CSS that is cross-browser compatible and doesn't look like shit on IE is absurd, and the extra time spent on that is killing my budgets.
In other words, I'm mad as hell with IE and Microsoft. I don't really give a damn that IE doesn't have tabbed browsing, or that it ships with insecure defaults. Couldn't give a rat's ass about the lack of pop-up blocking. I care that every f'ing simple web design project's budget has to account for a few extra hours getting their shit working properly.
When FF hits 1.0, I'll go on a mission to convert as many people from IE. I hope others do the same; maybe this will help M$ wake up and smell the standards.
Information: "I want to be anthropomorphized"
What's so special about file download counters that will cause them to break in the new version of IE? I thought they were server-side anyway?
Since it's more difficult to configure a web server to count downloads of all file types, people often use a PHP script which redirects to the target file.
For example http://server.com/getfile.php?file=test.exe
The PHP script updates the server-side counter and then redirects the user to the real file they wanted.
Ever seen those "Your download should start in 5 seconds..." messages?
The new behaviour will make it impossible to automatically pop up a file download dialog, rendering this type of download counter/anti-leech script usless.
No. All of the IE engineers should have a twelve-year-old kid use their computer at night while they're out of the office. Maybe after uninstalling a few thousand pieces of spyware they'll reconsider some of their basic design choices.
"People choose," replied Hachamovitch (IE lead engineer). "Hundreds of millions of people actively use Windows and they get to choose. Nothing in Windows as it ships keeps them from downloading other software that extends their browsing experience (e.g. the Google or Ebay toolbars) or changes it (e.g. an alternative browser)."
What a load of shit. I spent 8 hourts on line with MS tech support trying to disable IE entirely from my system. You see, when you remove it, the system recreates it. And even when it isn't there, it uses a default installed version which is integrated into the system.
Microsoft tech support has NO CLUE on how to remove it so I messaed around and came up with a way to have all Microsoft apps default to using Firefox instead
This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
What have the IE engineers been doing for the last three years? Handing out towels in the rest rooms?
Before you folks even THINK about implementing outrageous and curiously new features like... Tabbed Browsing or ActiveX, why don't you seriously think about the fact that the core part of IE is a load of junk. How about making the render engine RENDER XHTML and CSS2 properly?! IMPLEMENT THE STANDARDS *COMPLETELY.*
... what a concept ... have it render properly in IE!
I, along with so many other developers are sick and tired of hacking our otherwise perfectly valid and conforming CSS and markup to make it display properly in the hack you call a browser, which has remained virtually unchanged since the *conception* of Mozilla's Gecko engine. Before you start implementing *parts* of CSS3, why don't you fully and *PROPERLY* implement CSS2? Have you seen the numerous sites dedicated to Internet Explorer specific CSS hacks? You are the most HATED browser. Developers are outraged. It's ridiculous. No one CHOOSES to use IE.
I feel guilty about flaming you on CSS support. I'd much rather see the browser and company just collapse under the power and superior quality of Free and Open Source software. But since that's not going to happen any time soon, and since you're not going to be shipping Firefox or an alternative with your POS software you call an Operating System, and since it's unfortunate that somewhere like 90% of the population uses that abomination you call Internet Explorer... my head would stop spinning so fast if I could just write valid XHTML markup and valid CSS and
Just stop trying and give up, for the good of the common man. Really. Your days are numbered, so why not take some time to think about the good old days, and just let natural progression drag you under.
Thank you.
Ford would be held liable. Remember the Firestone/Ford deal with the bad tires? If a company 's product causes you physical harm because they're negligent, they'll get sued. So why not the same if a company's product causes all your personal information/identity to get stolen?
Check back to the Netscape trial and read Microsoft's rational for "integrating" the browser with the OS.
Also, check the comments of people who said that doing so would INCREASE the security risks.
Now, read the comments TODAY about the security holes attributed to IE and how difficult it is for Microsoft to fix them.
This is NOT a problem of "the ignorance of their users".
This is a problem that stems from an IDIOTIC approach to security that was motivated by the desire to destroy Netscape as a company.
The sound of the world's smallest violin.
Awwww poor, MS!
The default setting in IE will be to block popups.
This pretty much means that the popup window will be officially dead in a year's time.
WTF? You must joking, you actually must think that everyone, or even most will update.
Heck, there are still many people who are only using win98.
I'd say that the problem MS has (other than a tendency to unfairly dominate the market) is that they are *too* reliant on the end-user. All too often with MS, it really *is* a feature and not a bug.
"Times have not become more violent. They have just become more televised."
-Marilyn Manson
you have to love these suggestions
* Do not install ActiveX controls using a pop-up window or HTML dialog.
* Do not suggest to users they should lower their security settings to install an ActiveX control.
* Do create an instance of the ActiveX control on a standalone page describing the purpose and end-user impact of the control.
I had to read that twice to be sure that it was true...
They're saying they're making IE more secure by asking website authors not to exploit it?!?!?!?
OK, you can shoot me now. I've seen everything.
Actually, returning null when window.open() is blocked is the usual behavior for Firefox, and I assume for most other popup-blockers, as well. If memory serves, window.open() returns the window it creates so that you can further manipulate it from your code. Thus, no windows created --> null return value. Those of you with popup blockers can test the functionality here.
This pretty much means that the popup window will be officially dead in a year's time.
Actually, it simply means that window.open() popups will be dead in a year's time. It's an arms race, just like spam vs. antispam. Popups will simply move from JavaScript to CSS. The popup window appears as a CSS layer which is above the layer showing the main page.
To see an example of this, go to http://www.tek-tips.com. The first thing you'll see is a popup sailing across your screen and bouncing a couple of times off the bottom before giving you the opportunity to close it.
This is the near future of annoying adversiting, folks.
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
Of course!
This is a fundamental part of the culture at MS. They nuture the "underdog feeling" there in order to remain so fiercely competitive -- even when the product is a near-monopoly.
I saw this when I was an intern on the Excel team some 10 years ago -- the team leaders took pride in obsessing over what the competition was doing, and acting almost as if the company were going to go out of business in 3 months if they didn't.
If this applies to the marketing/legal departments too, that would explain a lot of MS's behavior.
"Orthodoxy is unconsciousness" - Orwell
Maybe, if Ford was the only car manufacturer you knew about.
Maybe if when you drove car you didn't see any other cars.
Maybe if almost all your friends and neighbors drove Fords, except for the graphic designer down the street who drives a deisel BMW.
Maybe if the other person you know who doesn't drive a Ford is one guy from your IT department... and he drives a Chevy that runs off of used vegetable oil.
Maybe if schools provided their students with Fords and your work provides you with a Ford.
Maybe if switching to a Mercury requires that you tow it home with your Ford, and you have to keep the Ford around, not only because you cannot get rid of it, but also in case there is a road the Mercury can't drive on.
What the crap have they been doing for the last THREE years? Playing Halo?
Check out some of these release dates:
6.0 --> 31-Dec-2001
6.0 SP1 --> 28-Aug-2002
I thought IE on the Mac was dead... judging by their release schedule, IE on the PC has been dead for years. Any other software company that waited *years* to release their next version of internet software (or an operating system, no less) would be dead in the water.
What really makes me mad is they drove other browsers into the ground during the war, only to sit on their haunches and enjoy the elimination of their competition. Thank goodness for Mozilla, or we'd all be in real trouble.
Get to work MS.
--J
notice how they kept side-stepping the questions about being W3C compliant!
Obviously if they were 100% compliant then web developers would stick to the standards, and any compliant browser would work and IE would start to lose market share.
Notice that his responses kept repeating the "needing to support current customer configs". What he really means is "ensuring continued customer lock-in to IE and Windows".
I bet they had PR coaches sitting right next to them the whole time the chat was going on.
Hilarious!
Is the juice worth the sqeeze?
"If the Content-type ProgID for a given file does not match the file extension ProgID, Internet Explorer in XP SP2 may take the following actions: 1) the user may be prompted to download the file and 2) the file will not be executed in the extension-handler if it fails to execute in the mime-handler."
I'm not so sure I like or agree with that one.
MIME types are there for a reason, so I can serve anyfile.anyext as text/html or image/jpeg. Or name.hubba as a Quicktime movie. I'd expect both to work, since that's what MIME types are for...
Extensions are a bad hack, and a relic from the DOS era. They should get rid of them instead of enforcing them (yeah, I know Mac OS X partially fell for extensions also, poor sods).
The metaphorical Ford isn't forcing me to buy their radio. I can go down to Mobile One and install a Concord in an even exchange. Ford isn't forcing me to use Ford Gas, they even provide a free adapter via the mail. They still don't tell me that I can replace the radio and I have to find out about the gastank adapter through Consumer Reports.
Microsoft isn't forcing you to use their dangerous browser, but they make it sufficiently hard that it's taken several years before more than a tiny fraction of the users are thinking about using something else...
You're absolutely right. There shouldn't be any browser included with any OS. That way everyone would be forced to go on the internet and down... DOH!
> When I drive my Subaru it doesn't pop-up ads for Ford.
When you drive your Subaru, the radio plays ads for Ford. And Chevy. And Kia, &c
> When I drink my Starbucks I don't get told that I could also be drinking Folgers.
When you go to the grociery store, you see House Blend next to #10 cans of Folgers.
> If your ignorant mother had a computer that had no web browser on it would she know a different way to get to the Internet, find an FTP site that has browsers for download, retrieve one, and install it?
Non-sequiter. Would anyone not familiar with the technology know how?
censorship is a form of noise, which actively seeks to drown out content with silence - Crash Culligan
How often to people give heated feedback to, for example, Mozilla/Firefox? I personally find the browser to slow and clunky in many ways, which is why I use IE and a popup blocker (Google Toolbar) rather than Mozilla, for sheer speed.
Only 18 months ago Mozilla was considered a poster child for a failed free software project. It was ridiculed frequently on this forum for being slow, buggy, etc... Then along comes Firefox. How short the collective memory is! The Mozilla developers fought through it all. They deserve our highest esteeme.
an ill wind that blows no good
Here's where Apple advertises competing browsers on APple's website:
u ti lities/
u ti lities/opera.html/ macosx/internet_uti lities/mozillafirefox.htmld ownloads/macosx/internet_uti lities/mozillacamino.htmlo wnloads/macosx/internet_uti lities/cyberduck.htmlo ads/macosx/internet_uti lities/icab.html
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/internet_
Including:
http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/internet_
http://www.apple.com/downloads
http://www.apple.com/
http://www.apple.com/d
http://www.apple.com/downl
Where's Microsoft's version of these pages?
In what way is that different from any other industry though? I don't remember buying a Nissan that included an ad for a Mazda in the glovebox. If people have heard of other browsers (which most have, even if it is just Netscape 4.7), then they KNOW of the alternatives...if they aren't able to download and install them that is there fault.
Think about these scenarios for a second:
Microsoft doesn't include ANY sort of browser in the default Windows install. Only the technically literate will be able to get a browser using commandline FTP tools. This limits people's access to other browsers more than the current situation.
Microsoft includes Mozilla and IE in its default Windows install. This is something we would NEVER expect any other company to do. See the Nissan/Mazda example above. Also, what about people that don't like EITHER, should they also include Opera and Konqueror ports?
Windows installs only Mozilla by default. Same song, different pitch. Not only will M$ never do this they have no reason to be expected to do it, nor would this change the situation. Eventually everyone would use Mozilla and people would bitch about it and complain that M$ was forcing them to use Mozilla.
Personally, I hate M$ and IE. I use Gentoo/XFCE4/Firefox at home (have to use IE at work...), but this is an area where we really can't FIX the problem in any way other than doing our best to make people aware of the alternatives and helping them install the software if they can. Also we should do our best to stop new sites from using IE-centric features or just blindly assuming they are being viewed on a Win 9x/NT system using IE.
If the Browser-Fairy were to suddenly change the target of the desktop icon on every computer all over the world from iexplorer.exe to firefox.exe, the market share for IE would go to something like 10% or less.
...
... mostly)
Sounds like we need an IE worm that does just that
(j/k
The Anti-Blog
Interesting position. However, there are consequences -- namely, even the intelligent and educated are affected by the "choices" of the ignorant. Case in point -- spam, viruses, worms, etc. flood the internet, eat up storage and bandwitdth, and reduce productivity. Extra time and money must be allocated to hire and train people to combat the problem.
Here's another -- I read an article in a medical journal a few years back. It discussed doctors giving too many antibiotics to the ignorant masses -- who demand antibiotics for everything from a common cold to a stubbed toe. This results in selecting for antibiotic-resistant bacteria -- super-bugs, if you will. The result is disease that can no longer be combatted by antibiotics. There are several bacteria that now exhibit resistance to penicillin -- for a long time, the most powerful weapon in the antibiotic arsenal.
It is in the best interests of EVERYONE that people lose their ignorance. Many need help to do it. Are you going to chip in? Or are you going to sit on the sidelines when the social, environmental, and financial systems collapse and giggle about how fucking smart you are?
95%+ of all gas stations sell proprietary FORD ONLY gas protected by patents.
95%+ of tire stations sell proprietary FORD ONLY tires protected by patents.
95%+ of mechanic shops service FORD ONLY cars
95%+ of of all auto parts stores sell FORD ONLY proprietary parts.
95%+ of etc, etc This situation was created by Ford because of their illegal monopoly and tactics. The others went were the money is just to survive. If Ford had not been an illegal monopoly and engaged in anti-competitive tactics, competition would have come along and made the market much better overall.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison
I'm not sure if this is a golf joke or a sex joke:
Two business partners are playing golf. The two women playing in front of them are playing slowly and badly, and holding them up. One businessman says to his partner, "I'll go ask if we can play through." He starts walking toward them, but about halfway there, he turns around. When he gets back, his partner asks what happened.
He replies, "I can't talk to those women, one of then is my wife, and the other is my mistress. Why don't you go talk to them?" The second man starts to walk over. He gets halfway there and turns around. When he gets back, his partner asks, "Now what happened?" To this he replies, "Small world, isn't it?"
To be completely fair, it's taken several years for people to start discovering other browsers because it's taken several years for there to come into existance a free browser worth switching to.
"People that quote themselves in their signatures bother me" - athakur999
Microsoft engineers users' perception such that they are led to believe that IE is the only web browser.
It's not a matter of being too lazy to download Firefox, it's a matter of not knowing it exists because Microsoft's marketing has conditioned them to think IE = The Internet.
This is not a bad thing in general. This is what every company's marketing department dreams of: making their product synonomous with the service. Kleenex and Band-Aid are both other companies that have done this successfully.
Why do users equate IE with the Internet? Where did Microsoft go wrong here? What were they supposed to do? Not include a browser with the OS? Have links to competing browsers on the desktop?
I don't think the number of IE-only sites are the reason for Microsoft's browser dominance. They are the result of them.
IE is a fast and effective browser that for a time was the best available. Now users are starting to realize that it is no longer the best and hasn't been for some time now. Consumers use whatever is the best for them until something better for them comes a long.
Not everything is analogous to cars. Car analogies rarely work.
IE is used all over windows - not just for web browsing. They really have integrated the damn thing into everything.
Not so sure on the "Ford" analogy, but one I have may be close. I have a Volvo that has a Bose stereo. It had a POS in-dash changer that died. Talked to the dealer and they are notoriously shitty, and are constantly being replaced (for $450 for a refurb unit.) So I go looking for third party replacements. The old bose was a 5 speaker system (center in the dash.) No normal stereo supports that. Fine - I won't use the 5th. Then I find out that the bose "system" has little amps at each speaker so that means I have to replace all the speakers too! Well, this starts getting Very expensive, very invasive, etc. so I end up getting an Alpine changer with FM modulator and keeping the half-broken old bose system because of the tight integration.
This reminds me Very much of IE in Windows. Yes, I can use an alternative browser for some stuff, but the integrated IE is still there and used for other stuff I have no control over (more than just WU.)
People just keep saying over and over that the users are just as much fault for not educating themselves. There is a reason why Slashdot users know about IE, Adaware, Linux and the new OS X system. We like learning about this stuff. Should I be accused of being lazy because I don't know how to cross-stitch? No, that just doesn't interest me and I could live out my life happily not knowing it. Many people feel that way about computers and we shouldn't call them lazy for not drilling into technical things when they really have no interest to do so. If I buy a PC from any store, I get Windows and IE...done deal. People should not be blamed for not knowing about Firefox, Safari and other options like that. It is up to a business to support the public interest of the business and since Mozilla is distributing Firefox free, don't expect advertising. Therefore it seems like the necessary advertising for Firefox is word-of-mouth and that seems to fall on users. Since Firefox's main users are techies, it's fate rests on us telling our mom's, not Microsoft. My mom is afraid of computers; she's not going to download Firefox any more than I'm going to learn how to stitch with her.