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Diebold Sued (Again) Over Shoddy Voting Machines

icypyr0 writes "Computer programmer Jim March and activist Bev Harris have filed suit in California state court against Diebold under a whistle-blowing statue. This is another in a series of blows dealt to the ailing company. March and Harris allege that Diebold 'used uncertified hardware and software, and modems that may have allowed election results to be published online before polls closed.' They are seeking full reimbursement for all of the voting machines purchased in California. March and Harris could collect up to 30% of the reimbursement, under the whistle-blower statute. In an interesting turn, the two are requesting that the state of California join the lawsuit. State officials have spent millions on the paperless touch screen machines; Alameda County has spent at least $11 million alone."

66 of 314 comments (clear)

  1. Vaporware and voting don't mix. by LostCluster · · Score: 4, Informative

    The concept is classic in the computer software industry... sales sells a vaporware product that hasn't been built yet, and then the R&D people have to take shortcuts in order to get a product shipped by the date it was promised.

    Governments don't take well to such practices. When dealing with a state government, you must cross every t and dot every i in the system. Any bugs, flaws or failures is simply delivering a product that wasn't to spec.

    Diebold appears to have their hands caught in the cookie jar here. They've already been caught installing a "patch" on machines that were supposed to be "sealed" and in their final ready-for-voting state. Bev Harris has been the collector in chief of all of Diebold's other mistakes that they've tried to cover up... seeing what they have ready to present at trial should be fun.

    1. Re:Vaporware and voting don't mix. by MisanthropicProgram · · Score: 5, Informative
      This doesn't realate to the article but it relates to your post.

      Long story short: I was at a company that sold vaporware. When we bitched about the stupid deadlines and what the fuck were the salesguys and upper management thinking, we were told that, "If we don't do it, someone else will and make the sale."

      What a rationalization.

    2. Re:Vaporware and voting don't mix. by Saeed+al-Sahaf · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The concept is classic in the computer software industry... sales sells a vaporware product that hasn't been built yet, and then the R&D people have to take shortcuts in order to get a product shipped by the date it was promised.

      The problem here is deeper than that. The simple truth is that voting software is a relativly simple project. EVEN with VB (which is what Dibold is using for their software), it would be simple to build a secure system. The fact is, they don't have the expertise to do so with any tool.

      --
      "Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
    3. Re:Vaporware and voting don't mix. by pjrc · · Score: 5, Insightful
      This statement hardly seems like what's been reported...

      Governments don't take well to such practices. When dealing with a state government, you must cross every t and dot every i in the system. Any bugs, flaws or failures is simply delivering a product that wasn't to spec.

      Seems like many of the reports so far have shown great support for Diebold at the local and state level. Time and time again, state officials have brushed off complaints and critisms. Even in California, this went on for quite a while. Withness the condition in Florida. The issue is being pressed not be gov't officials, but by grassroots citizen's groups, the ALCU and other non-governmental groups.

      Looks who's filing the lawsuit. The plaintifs are Jim March and Bev Harris... activists, not gov't officials. In fact, the lawsuit has been sealed for at least 7 months while the government tried to decide if they wanted to join the plaintifs.

      The state of California has STILL not decided if they want to join the plainfits in this lawsuit. That's hardly needing to cross every t and dot event i in the system. It's more a case of needing to hide problems well enough from activists. It's clear the election officials are apathetic and would rather keep any problems swept under the rug than admit they were cheated, purchased shoddy products, and failed to detect accuracy problems.

  2. Who was the statue of? by Scratch-O-Matic · · Score: 4, Funny

    The whistle blowing statue, that is.

    --


    Evil is the money of root.
    1. Re:Who was the statue of? by Esion+Modnar · · Score: 4, Funny

      Steve McQueen, from "The Great Escape." (You know, the whistling scene...)

      --

      They say the first thing to go is your penis. Well, it's either that or your brain. I forget which...
    2. Re:Who was the statue of? by Mikkeles · · Score: 3, Funny
      '...against Diebold under a whistle-blowing statue.'

      Would this be it?

      --
      Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
  3. FINALLY! by the_mad_poster · · Score: 5, Informative

    Whether this goes anywhere or not, Diebold's abuses are finally going to the mainstream. The number one weapon that people have on their side to affect a change in an unfair system is information, and this information hitting major news outlets with some degree of regularity is happening just in time to ensure that this nonsense DIES.

    Remember, when your friends ask what this is all about, you have everything from blackboxvoting.com to the damning Diebold memos themselves to point to as evidence of the abuse and incompetence plaguing such a vital issue.

    --
    Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
    1. Re:FINALLY! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Bev Harris isn't just an activist, she's is the whistleblower from within Diebold. She exposed an internal Diebold document that was nothing short than "How to manipulate the results" manual. She is giving a speech tomorrow in Austin, TX where activists are trying to compel the TX Governor to mandate that all these electronic voting machines have some sort of verifyable paper trail at the voting site, by the voter.

    2. Re:FINALLY! by demachina · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The problem here is the only body with the ability to fix this mess across the entire nation before the November election is Congress and they've already refused. So you are stuck tryng to fix it state by state.

      There is a bill with more than a hundred sponsers that would require a paper trail in November but it is being sat on by the same people who wrote HAVA which is the bill that started this mess in the first place.

      Here is the statement from the bipartisan representatives and senators that have bottled it up in committee.

      It contains some disturbing statements, this one in particular:

      "Most importantly, the proposals requiring a voter-verified paper record would force voters with disabilities to go back to using ballots that provide neither privacy nor independence, thereby subverting a hallmark of the HAVA legislation. There must be voter confidence in the accuracy of an electronic tally. However, the current proposals would do nothing to ensure greater trust in vote tabulations"

      Not sure how they can claim a recountable paper trail, "would do nothing to ensure greater trust in vote tabulations".

      They also want the same agency that is apparently responsible for the current mess to sit on the problem and do nothing in time for this election:

      "Questions regarding voting systems security, as well as many others, need to be examined by the entity responsible for doing so under existing law, the Election Assistance Commission, before Congress begins imposing new requirements, just months before the 2004 presidential and congressional elections, that have not been fully considered. The security of voting technology is a non-partisan issue. We encourage you to allow HAVA to be implemented as enacted and provide those who are charged with ensuring the security of voting systems the time and flexibility needed to get the job done effectively. "

      As if this whole situation wasn't disturbing enough this same commission is exploring give the Bush administration, and Homeland Security power to postpone the election in the event of a terrorist attack, especially if it looks like Bush might lose in its wake the same way the Spanish government did, if it becomes apparent he may not have made America safer.

      --
      @de_machina
    3. Re:FINALLY! by puppet10 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Not sure how they can claim a recountable paper trail, "would do nothing to ensure greater trust in vote tabulations".

      I wonder if they'd let me take control of their personal finances without a paper record - because the paper record would do nothing to ensure greater trust in the financial calculations.

      --
      -------- This space intentionally left blank --------
  4. In unrelated news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Diebold has offered to supply test voting machines for use in jury trials in California.

  5. Diebold by mfh · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Diebold == Dieslow.

    Somebody save e-voting... before it's too late. Looks like Florida is going to be in a worse position than in 2000. I know I keep saying this, but someone should create a good Internet voting mechanism, and keep it anonymous yet feasible. I'd like to be sure my vote was counted, and the only way to really do that is by the old fashioned SQL count() function. :-)

    At least then I'd know that my vote is my say. Nowadays, you're either black, hispanic, poor, criminal, or you look like these groups so you're unable to vote. It's a crying shame, and in all its flaws, Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 actually does demonstrate the problems with the 2000 election quite intricately.

    --
    The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
    1. Re:Diebold by whoever57 · · Score: 4, Informative
      Somebody save e-voting... before it's too late.

      Why? What is the benefit? Ultimately, you have to have a certain level of trust. Current paper methods reduce the necessary level of trust -- because independent (and non-independent) observers are watching what happens for me.

      Frankly, what happened in Florida was not good, but let's face it, when elections get that close, you may as well toss a coin! When things like weather could affect a result, is the accuracy of the count that important?

      What is really important, though, is to prevent any person, organization or company getting into a position whereby they can systematically skew the results of multiple elections.

      Until someone comes up with an electronic voting scheme that guarantees that no one can fix an election then we should forget about electronic voting and stick with paper.

      Even if you consider the problems in Florida to be more of an issue than I do, they don't require electronic voting to fix them -- let's look for simpler, more foolproof solutions.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    2. Re:Diebold by laird · · Score: 4, Informative

      "someone should create a good Internet voting mechanism, and keep it anonymous yet feasible"

      Someone's creating a good eVoting mechanism, the Open Voting Consortium. Go to http://www.openvotingconsortium.org and help out!

      I'll also point out that internet voting is fundamentally insecure, but any vulnerability can be exploited infinitely. When voting takes place in polling stations (i.e. offline and under observation), the poll workers can limit the damage of any vulnerability, because they can see who comes in, control who goes into voting stations, for how long, and can stop anyone doing anything too obvious (e.g. unscrewing the voting stations and modifying their internals, for example). Also, internet voting makes any a reliable audit impossible, because there's no voter verified physical record of a vote.

    3. Re:Diebold by cmowire · · Score: 3, Informative

      You are under the mistaken assumption that a good Internet voting mechanism is possible and a good idea.

      Right now, it probably isn't. Would you want your average PC to be controlling your life support system, where if it dies, you do? The wrong guy in the white house could unleash a nuclear holocaust upon us all; is that any less important?

      Really, I'm not sure that it's worth it to do electronic voting anyways. A properly designed machine-assisted paper voting system (big ballots in your choice of languages, mark-sense sense system with no chad, etc) is pretty economical and reasonably hard to mess with -- especially because its functioning and potential for fraud is easier to perceive.

    4. Re:Diebold by KanshuShintai · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't understand the problem with normal mechanical voting machines. The ones we use in CT aren't difficult at all. What's the point in using computers for voting when there's a mechanical method that works as well already, without the worry of malicious software and the need for an additional paper trail?

      I mean.... It's like, what are you going to do when you're trying to vote and the power goes out?

    5. Re:Diebold by Barto · · Score: 5, Informative

      You mean like here in Canberra, Australia?

      Linux desktop computers running open source (GPL) electronic voting software, burning the votes AND keystroke logs (to verify each vote if necessary) to CD-ROMs providing an "electronic" paper trail?

      It is at least as safe, if not safer, than paper-and-pencil voting. As society continues to move towards staring at computer displays 24/7 electronic voting becomes an inevitability out of inertia, so it may as well be done right.

      Barto

    6. Re:Diebold by canadian_right · · Score: 4, Insightful
      You can't currently have a secure internet vote.

      What they should be doing is making sure the voting machines are NEVER able to remotely connect to anything. Once voting is done for the night election officials should have to PHYSICALY connect or transfer votes from the machines to a device that sends the tally to the central counting.

      Once a voting machine is "certified" it should be LOCKED, taped, and completely inaccesible to remote or phyical tampering.

      This excellent article at the Register explains what a good voting system needs.

      --
      Anarchists never rule
    7. Re:Diebold by Jason+Earl · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Unless I get a paper certificate that I can verify for myself, and that counts as "my vote" in cases where a recount is called for, I am not interested in switching to a new technology.

      There are plenty of tricks that can be played unless the voter can verify a hard copy ballot themselves. In nearly all cases these ballots wouldn't be used, but they would allow for recounts of suspicious votes. Keystroke logs are a nice touch. Unless, of course, the keystroke logger is tampered with. hard copy receipts, on the other hand, can be verified on the spot by the voter, and are much more difficult to modify successfully after the fact.

    8. Re:Diebold by Barto · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A paper trail can be tampered with. You just need to make your own voting slips, number say 100 votes with the candidate you want and replace a random selection of votes in a ballot box with the illegitimate votes.

      The idea of "just need to" modify the operating system, keystroke logger and voting software - open source software in a heavily monitored environment - is ridiculous. This system is not perfect but the level of conspiracy needed to tamper with the voting system would be in the same ballpark as paper ballots.

    9. Re:Diebold by Anarcho-Goth · · Score: 3, Informative

      Computer voting has the potential to become more reliable, but I don't think we are going to see it from Diebold.

      There has always been some element of trust in the elections. We've all seen the T-Shirt "I'm from Chicago, Two ballots please." but at this point I still think that paper ballots are more reliable. If you put the paper ballots in a lock box, and the lock box is opened under the supervision of all sides involved in the election as well as the media, then it becomes a lot more difficult to defraud an election.

      (Although changing voting locations at the last minute, putting up National Guard roadblocks, and disqualifing thousands of people who happen to have the same first and last name as convicted felons in other states are potential abuses in this scenario. But computer voting wouldn't fix those problems either.)

      Even if we did have a verifiable open-source voting system I still think it would be a good idea to have paper ballots. What would be best is after you vote, the machine prints out a paper ballot that is both machine and human readable. The voter can then examine their ballot and confirm all their choices are correct, and place it in the lock box.

      When the elections are over you tally both the electronic voting machines and the paper ballots, and if there is a significant difference you know at least one of the numbers is wrong. Since the methods involved in defrauding an election via paper balots and computers are different, I imagine it would be very difficult to make the results come out the same.

      Now, ultimately, I think that an open-source voting solution that uses both encryption and digital signatures would be best. Peer review can confirm that the system is nih impossible to rig. The average person won't understand this, but then the average person is not involved in the old fashioned voting sytem anyway.

      Oh, interesting story I heard a few years ago about paper ballots on talk radio. Someone was at the place where the machine reads the ballots. The caller said that he suggest they test the reliability of the machine by taking a stack of ballots, and running them through the machine twice and seeing if the results come out the same both times.

      I forget if they actually did it and there were different results, and the voting people didn't like him, or if they just didn't like him without even trying. Some people just don't like you to question them, and it seems the bigger their responsibility, the less they like to be questioned.

      --
      I hate Liberals and Conservatives.
      If you are a Liberal or a Conservative, then HAVE A NICE DAY!
      Courage.
  6. They're inviting the state of CA into the lawsuit by sharkb8 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    because if the state joins in, the state will pay for and handle the case, and the two who started it won't have to do much. If this happens, they'll only get 20% by the way. They'll get 30% if they handle the case themselves and win though...

  7. Condorcet Voting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    As long as we're screwing ourselves with these electronic voting machines, why don't we at least switch to Condorcet voting at the same time? Computers could make Condorcet voting really easy.

    Then, of course, put in that paper trail thing.

  8. Microsofts cue? by toetagger1 · · Score: 4, Funny

    used uncertified hardware and software
    Lets hope Microsoft doesn't use this as a cue to move thier OS onto those machines. Hell, next thing we know, we'll be able to vote on our X-boxes!

    --
    who | grep -i blond | date cd ~; unzip; touch; strip; finger; mount; gasp; yes; uptime; umount; sleep
  9. Steep penalties... by LostCluster · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Catching Diebold's products actually being in violation of the law may be a technical matter that might result in lawyers talking for days, but should that burden ever be meant, the penalty is huge, especially in California.

    Diebold promised their equipment would be up to spec. If it's found that it's not, then that's just plain simple basic fraud. In CA, the whistleblower law we're talking about makes the company have to refund 100% of the money the state gave it, and 30% goes to the citizens who started the case. More or less, Diebold will have lost all of the revenue it got from CA, plus all of the losses incured due to the fact that they already tried to deliver a product that they now aren't getting paid for...

    This is the kind of thing that sends a company pretty close to bankruptcy... good thing Diebold has its ATM product line to fall back on.

  10. I've always wanted... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...a whistle blowing statue. It'd look nice next to my tuba playing lawn gnome.

  11. 50/50 nation means every vote really matters by LostCluster · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Part of the reason why there was such a big deal over the counting of the Florida votes last year was because Florida's electoral votes were enough to give either candidate the victory in the overall election.

    In many past presidential elections, isolated incidents of corruption or other flaws weren't as important because the overall result was a clear landside for one candidate or the other. Even if the irregularities in a state got so bad it tipped their electoral votes in the wrong candidate's direction, that state worth of votes usually isn't enough to tip the entire national election.

    This year, with the nation split so tightly, and last time's close call fresh in everybody's mind, the tolerance for such flaws is going to be lower than it's ever been. The smallest election scandal is going to get magnified now.

    1. Re:50/50 nation means every vote really matters by InfiniteWisdom · · Score: 5, Funny

      The smallest election scandal is going to get magnified now.
      Unless if is in favor of the incumbent president. In that case it would be unpatriotic to talk about it.

    2. Re:50/50 nation means every vote really matters by siriuskase · · Score: 4, Informative
      No they don't, if you aren't in one of the most populous state, your vote isn't worth shit. It's like a contest where California, Texas, and New York count, and Florida is the tie breaker. If they need another tie breaker, that's Illinois and they work their way down the list. Due to the winner takes all nature of most states, little states (all but the top 10) don't count. States with a clear majority aren't compaigned in. It's a bite being in a populous state and not be worth an ad compaign.
      55 California
      34 Texas
      31 New York
      27 Florida
      21 Illinois
      21 Pennsylvania
      20 Ohio
      17 Michigan
      15 Georgia
      --
      If you must moderate, please moderate as irrelevent, not something bad, because I'm sure someone will find this interest
  12. Something very misleading in the writeup by foidulus · · Score: 5, Interesting

    dealt to the ailing company.
    Diebold as a company isn't ailing, it's doing pretty well from what I gather making ATMs...Diebold as an electronic voting manufacturer is ailing. In fact, it's so bad that some people in the company have suggested dropping it altogether because it is making the company look bad. But they persist, which may even bring further question to Diebold's CEO's political motives...

    1. Re:Something very misleading in the writeup by MobyDisk · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Unfortunately, that's not true. I bank with Provident Bank of Maryland, which is extends through Maryland and some of Pennsylvania. Last year I sent a packet with printouts of a dozen articles about Diebold ATMs, voting machines, and other funny business. I provided the material in PDF form on a CD, and included a letter about how I didn't trust Provident ATMs since they use Diebold. I sent it certified mail to their customer service department, and I heard nothing. A year later, and not even a form letter in reply. They just don't care.

  13. A solution in search of a problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We had the mess in Florida, but instead of identifying the real problem (plurality voting, where voting for two people ruins the ballot and a spoiler can throw the election to the overall loser) we instead looked at one of the symptoms (hanging chads, and whether or not a hole was completely punched through).

    Want to fix the real problem? Use Approval voting or a ranked method like Condorcet. Overvotes don't hurt either methon (two "Approvals" or first place votes are easily counted), undervotes are tossed like normal, and a third party candidate won't throw the election to the guy at the other extreme of the political spectrum.

    As it is, even if Diebold had an absolutely perfect system, Nader could still throw the election to Bush, overvotes would still be tossed out, and then you *add* the problem of having an untraceable vote that can't be recounted.

    1. Re:A solution in search of a problem by cmowire · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You forget that, really, any voting system is unfair and ends up ruining it for somebody. Well, that, and it would require a constitutional amendment to make it happen.

      The real, easy, workable solution is a sanity check at vote-time. They do this out where I live. Once you fill out your large-print paper ballot, they put your ballot in the machine. The machine scans your ballot and lets you know if something's wrong. However, you still have real paper ballots that can be checked for accuracy to make sure that none of the machines have been tampered with.

  14. New business plan by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 5, Insightful
    1)Get job at dodgy company.
    2)Find out all about their dodgy dealings.
    3)Blow whistle.
    4)Profit!

    Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the whole reason for the whistle blowing law was to protect employees who want to come clean, not for them to make a profit.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
    1. Re:New business plan by complete+loony · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Once you're labelled as a whistleblower you may never work (for a large faceless corp.) again. So the reward may have to last you into retirement.

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
    2. Re:New business plan by JimMarch(equalccw) · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yup.

      Errr...not ALL of it though :).

      (I hope nobody here is as humor-impaired as a few of the DemocraticUnderground folks seem to be.)

      Jim

      (yes, that Jim)

  15. Money is a great 2x4 by kmahan · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The OpenVoting folks in the article complained about using the Whistle Blower/Money type lawsuit. But having read a lot of articles on Diebold and its "tactics" it seems like the only thing Diebold will listen to is an argument (court case) that affects its bottom line. That whole "follow the law and do it right" concept is lost on them. Maybe if Diebold has to cough up $100M or more they might consider doing it right. Either that or they'll pay off with vouchers for free voting machines!

    --
    Invalid Checksum. Retrying.
  16. Democracy... by Drasil · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... A system of government whereby the people get the rulers they deserve.

    Seriously though, I'm generally an advocate of using IT to automate boring and repetitive tasks, but as far as elections are concerned I think it's a very bad idea. The outcome of the last US election was effected by the use of 'voting technology', and they (I'm not a US citizen, thank god) ended up having a president appointed by a panel of judges.

    If elections are run in the more traditional way of putting an X in a box on a piece of paper and then having an army of people count the ballots then the whole process becomes transparent. Election fraud is made difficult by having many people involved in it's administration, the reverse is also true.

    My tinfoil hat is beginning to itch, but if I wanted to rig an election using voting machines I'd like to leave myself an alibi. After all, one should never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence. Think about it.

    1. Re:Democracy... by ROOK*CA · · Score: 3, Informative

      ended up having a president appointed by a panel of judges
      This is a bald-faced "Urban Myth" go back and review the facts of the 2000 election and you'll find the Supreme Court in reality ended up being a non-factor in the outcome of the election.

      you make some good points, but as the 2000 Presidential Election demonstrated, some of my countrymen can't figured out
      A.) how to make a X
      B.) How many X's to put on each line of the Ballot.
      In other words the simpler the user interface the more Americans will actually comply with balloting regulations and thus have their votes counted.

      IMHO Digital voting systems are VERY feasible as well as a good idea. Just look at the global banking system - primarily digital with systems oversight of other distributed systems and capable of securely moving around trillions of dollars a day almost without incident. If we can do this, it seems to me to be a no-brainer to put together a reliable and secure E-Voting platform.

  17. This has to happen in many states to be effective by kcbrown · · Score: 4, Interesting
    The whole electronic voting setup in the U.S. is just begging to be exploited by the unscrupulous. All they have to do is "convince" the companies that make these machines to put code in them that will randomly change a vote here and a vote there, until the numbers favor whoever "paid" them off.

    That's not hard for someone who is unscrupulous and is also already in power to do. Someone who is already in power can grant "favors" to the people in these companies that make decisions, whereas a challenger can only promise future favors. Considering how "business friendly" and "wealth friendly" the current administration has proven itself to be, a promise by said administration to grant favors would be taken very seriously. And since the government today basically answers only to the corporations (especially those that own the media), I think it's unlikely that such "payoffs" would get very much media attention. Furthermore, the administration is in control of a number of agencies that can "guarantee" that anyone at those companies who works on the software in question will not talk. If they try, they'll have an "accident".

    Any system that can be exploited ultimately will be, and the more incentive there is to exploit the system the sooner it will happen. In the case of a voting system that is unauditable and easily manipulated, I think there is every reason to believe that it will be exploited in the upcoming election.

    The only way to counter it is to make sure that the number of states using them is few enough that they cannot have a meaningful effect on the election.

    But so far, only a few states have taken any action against electronic voting machines to my knowledge, and only California has banned their use outright (again, to my knowledge). That's not nearly enough to ensure that the upcoming election is truly fair.

    That's why I think Bush will win the upcoming election no matter what the voters actually think -- the current administration is the most ruthless and underhanded I've heard of, and that kind of approach is all that's needed to exploit the obviously vulnerable electronic election system in the U.S.

    Tinfoil hat stuff? You bet. But 20 years ago, anyone who suggested that software would be patentable in the future would have been dismissed as a conspiracy theory nutcase. But it happened. 30 years ago, anyone who suggested that the U.S. would pass a law like the USAPATRIOT act would have been laughed out of the room. But it passed anyway. Tinfoil hat stuff is hard to dismiss if it is internally consistent, agrees better with all the facts, and explains current events better than everything else. As is, I believe, the case here.

    --
    Use 'slashdot stuff' in the subject line in any email you send me if you want to get past the spam filter.
  18. This is what we need... by jjh37997 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Here's what we need...

    A touch screen voting booth that lets voters select the canidates they want.

    After the voter casts their vote the booth prints out a ballot that's machine readable yet understandable to the naked eye.

    The voter checks to make sure that the canidates they selected are recorded on the ballot and then feeds it into a reader. It's this machine that actually records the voter's vote.

    This way not only do we get the benifit of a machine count but a paper trail to boot.

    1. Re:This is what we need... by elpapacito · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Let me propose an alternative

      1) well prepared, not confusing paper ballot
      2) pen
      3) make a cross

      Optical scanner picks up the cross/sign , spits them out for human check if there's something wrong. The scanner does the jobs of 2 pc (actually it is a slimmed down PC) by counting and collecting data. Less expensive then 2 machines.

      Later, while the election results are announced electronically (so making any "realtime freak" happy god knows why) the paper votes are hand recounted just to make sure nobody tampered with the machines.

      Given that the cost of a person able to check votes is more or less that of a McDonald burger flipper (nearing 0) , govt can employ for a short time thousands, making them slightly less poor while making a job that's far better then flipping burgers, at least for a few days.

      Just a scratch of the basic idea, keep the computers from becoming dominant in the process.

  19. A little worse then that by autopr0n · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Voting machines need to be certified, basically this means someone needs to inspect it and make sure it works correctly, is tamper-resistant, etc. hardware and software is certified together. but Diebold treated their software like many IT products. release what you have and patch, patch, patch. Unfortunately, in the case of election this meant uncertified software (and allegedly uncertified modems as well) was used. Diebold could have put anything in that code.

    Of course, whoever did the certification job on the Diebold certainly wasn't doing their jobs very well.

    A good model for EVM would actually be the Navada Gaming commission for slot machines and the like. Software updates need to digitally signed and encrypted by both the company, and the commission. Running slot machines without approved software is illegal.

    --
    autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
    1. Re:A little worse then that by The+Vulture · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I agree that the model used by the Nevada Gaming Commision would be perfect. Additionally, the Gaming Commission will from time to time, do random audits of machines to make sure that they're up to snuff, and there's big fines for those that don't meet the requirements.

      Of course, there's a lot of money to be made or lost, and that's why they're so anal about it. Given that there's apparently discussion of suspending the November elections in the event of a terrorist attack, hey, what's this voting thing, and why is it so important? ;)

      -- Joe

    2. Re:A little worse then that by Smallpond · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I thought you were joking until I looked it up. The Independent has an article.

      Anyway, if they wanted to make voting machines more like slots, why not put a seal on them over the screws, floppy, CD, USB, network ports. etc from the time they're certified until after the election? Tampering subject to criminal penalty. They can do it on every gas pump and supermarket scale, why not on voting machines?

    3. Re:A little worse then that by The+Vulture · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Like I said, with the other things, there's money involved. If the gas pump or scale are tampered with, that's measurable losses (or gains) for the tamperer, or tamperee (probably not a word, but hey, the context makes sense).

      Maybe the problem here is that there doesn't seem to be any measurable effect to the voting machines not being secure (well, you and I know that there is, but maybe the mass public doesn't). I get the feeling that until there's something that costs a lot of people something (maybe money), people won't really care about how secure the voting machines are.

      Voter apathy is at an all-time high right now, nobody cares about voting. Because of that, I suspect that most people, even if they hear of this, figure, "Well, I'm not voting, why do I care?"

      -- Joe

  20. Jim March's Comments by Maxwell'sSilverLART · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Jim March broke the news last night over on The High Road; I submitted the story last night, but was rejected. Anyhow, follow the link, and you can read Jim's commentary, and discuss the case with him (he's a senior member and very active participant over at THR). All sorts of little tidbits over there--the suit has been in the works since November, but a gag order was just lifted yesterday. Somebody else mentioned that the plaintiffs get a 30% bounty on the damages, or 20% if the state provides legal assistance (that should be 15%, not 20%, BTW). He also discusses the basis for the fraud suit, and the somewhat unique method (Qui Tam) they've chosen to fight Diebold; he likens it to the tax evasion case against Al Capone. Definitely a good, lively discussion over there; well worth a read.

    --
    Moderate drunk! It's more fun that way!
    1. Re:Jim March's Comments by SysPig · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Every once in a while, you see a story in a different light than just about everyone else.

      Jim March is not the one to be leading something like this. He's a nut case, but those of you applauding his efforts won't realize this until the cameras hit him - should this case go far enough to warrant the attention.

      Having worked with him during one of his contracting gigs, it's safe to say just about everyone he came in personal contact with did everything they could to avoid him from then on. He had a nice habit of whipping out his rather large knife, just to enjoy the reaction of folks who became obviously a bit squeamish. After jabbering on and on about the legality of his edged weapon, he'd then segway into a long disertation on the court fights he was waging against a local sherrif for discriminating against people requesting concealed carry permits.

      As a pro-gun guy, completely outnumbered at my place of employment and in my community, you might think I approved of him spreading the word. Wrong! Nobody wants their point of view argued and represented by a nut.

      Oh - and labeling him a "programmer" is rather ammusing - he was let go early from his contract stint as a Help Desk minion when I had the pleasure of working with him.

    2. Re:Jim March's Comments by JimMarch(equalccw) · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This is doubly not true. Possibly tripply :) if that's a word.

      First: I can't get Rachel Konrad at AP to STOP calling me a "programmer". I was a full-tilt sysadmin when I left the techie fields but have never claimed to be a programmer anywhere. Apparantly her editors don't want to waste the space to put in "system administrator/tech support" or something. And because it's all over, it keeps getting re-broadcast. I can't freakin' stop it, although as God is my witness I've tried.

      Second: I never, ever threatened or tried to surprise anybody with cutlery or otherwise. Anyone who knows me knows I'm not *wired* to want to threaten or bully or scare anybody. I'm very sorry if I accidentally scared someone while stripping wires or something...I can recall a couple of times that happening over the years but I always tried to make my lack of threatening intent VERY clear.

      Third: what's this about me being a "leader"?

      I'm serious. That was never my intent, nor is it the case today. I just rolled up my sleeves and *worked* at this stuff, analysing programs, helping Bev Harris go through the massive stash of stuff she downloaded, helped go through the EMail stash that somebody (we still don't know who) slipped out apparantly around 3/15/03(???) and released broadly around August(?). See for yourselves:

      http://www.equalccw.com/voteprar.html - I would recommend in particular the "DieboldTestNotes" page linked from there, and my letters to the California Secretary of State...the first two of which (still the most important stuff I've written I think) were done before meeting Lowell Finley.

      Now let's talk about Lowell. He is an fair voting rights activist first, lawyer second. He decided that the best way to kick the snot out of Diebold was to do a Qui Tam...go after their money. So in late October, he looked for a California resident (he knew he had to have at least one) who had made the MOST original research in the area of Diebold. Original research is what matters in a Qui Tam.

      He came to me.

      I had *no* idea what a Qui Tam was, and no idea that any part of this could possibly be profitable. Anybody who says I'm "in this for the money" is crazy. The offices of attorney Lowell Finley is at 510-290-8823. Call him up - ask him what was the FIRST thing I said when this whole "Qui Tam" concept sunk in. I'll tell you what he'll report me saying: "we have to bring Bev Harris in". I knew she'd done more work AND more original research than I had and there was no way I'd walk away with cash without her being involved.

      Bev's the leader here, not me. Anything I've done, I've published so others can build off of what I'm doing...see also the URL above.

      Leader? Literally, I'm not. You wanna go do something? Cool. Do it. You wanna build off my work, or ignore it, or some mix, ain't no skin off my back.

      I'm gonna do what I do. Which is see something wrong, try and fix it...without stealing anybody else's work, without backstabbing anybody else, without trying to hurt anybody else's effectiveness.

      And without posting anonymously, even if that opens me up to somebody who's either pissed off, or possibly somebody I accidentally scared God knows how many years ago. I'm really sorry if that's the case...reading that post I'm replying to was like a punch to the gut.

      But ask Bev, Lowell or a lot of other people whether or not I'm crazy.

      I'm not.

      Jim

  21. Re: :-( by NoMoreNicksLeft · · Score: 4, Funny

    Writing software with VB makes baby Jesus cry.

  22. Re:Code by kunudo · · Score: 5, Funny

    Ah, thank god you have me to debug your code. Here ya go:

    private void countvotes(bool vote,SSN){
    if(vote){
    Kerri+=1;
    alert_SS("$SSN");
    alert_IRS("$SSN");
    }
    else{
    bush+=1;
    echo "thank you, citizen, now go play somewhere else";
    }
    }

  23. Re: :-( by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Baby Jesus? Hell, writing critical software with VB would make adult Jesus cry!

  24. All forms of voting are imperfect by davidwr · · Score: 5, Interesting

    All forms of voting are imperfect on a large scale.

    Old-fashioned paper ballot boxes can be stuffed a la "Box 13" of LBJ's Senate (D-TX) election of '48.

    Mechanical ballots like Florida's 2000 punch-card ballots are vulnerable to designs which make incorrect voting likely, and this can be engineered to favor a particular candidate.

    All-Electronic ballots vulnerable to software and hardware errors.

    All of the above are vulnerable to catastrophies like fire, tornado, and other extreme circumstances.

    Our best bet is to combine the best of the available technologies:
    1) The actual ballot is a human-readable, voter-verified ballot that, barring corrupt poll workers and observers, cannot be easily tampered with after the vote is cast. This physical ballot will be counted on election night and used in any recounts.
    2) machines are used to assist the blind and other handicapped voters in casting their votes and verifying their ballots, and to make a "clean" ballot which can be read quickly with almost zero errors by a counting machine or human counter.
    3) machines keep a secondary count of vote totals so news media can have a good, unofficial, estimate of the actual vote totals within a short time after the polls close. Barring error, the unofficial count will match the official count exactly.

    Oh, of course any machines used in voting or counting votes would be "open for inspection" - that is, the hardware design, manufacturing processes, source and object code, would be published information and open to scrutiny. The actual hardware and object code would be audited to make sure it matched the published specifications, and if not, the difference would be documented for all to see.

    As machines aren't perfect, human poll workers, election judges, and observers will be allowed to observe all parts of the election process.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  25. Secret ballot by phr2 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I don't see how that CD-ROM system leaves the secret ballot intact. If you watch the polls and see that Fred is the 37th voter that day, then examining the 37th vote on the CD-ROM tells you how Fred voted, right? With paper ballots, the ballots all get shuffled before being counted.

    More to the point, how does the voter know that the data written to the CD-ROM is the same as how he actually voted? I can show you a computer and a printout of a GPL program, and claim that the GPL program is what's actually running on the computer, but how do you verify that?

  26. In related ? news by elpapacito · · Score: 3, Funny

    Diebald issued a stream of no less then 3 patches in 3 days to fix their flaming new counting software release. "This will seal the problems while the machines are sealed until SP2 is out" said a pointy haired spokeperson. "We're proactively seeking the achievement of market leadership by deploying retroactive patches to updated software. Nation trust us." he said in a stunning wordplay worth of Nostradamus fame.

    Opposers of the Diebald software proposed an open-source alternative , but their open attitude apparently is preventing them from ideologically sealing anything. "Let me patch it realtime while you vote ! Hey watchout I'm patching here !! wait just another minute ... " an unidentified supporter said ; a few seconds later an angry queueing sweating roaring mob introduced him to the concept of releasing by due date. No penguin was harmed in the process.

    Another angry flash mob quickly assembled in streets chanting praises of the aging, but reliable paper and pen voting system.

  27. It's because by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The banks audit the shit out of the ATMs. The bank wants the ATM to dispense the amount someone asks for, no more no less, all the time. The bank wants that ATM to accurately fetch and send customer and transaction information, all the time. The bank wants the ATM to dispense money ONLY for the customer to whom it belongs.

    Well, if Diebold made it where there was an override code ot just come and steal money, the bank would find out in a big hurry (there'd be a discrepancy between physical audits and transaction longs, and camera tapes to see who did what). If Diebold made ATMs that screwed customers for fun, the bank would be pissed (since the customer and secret service would be pissed). Basically, it is in the bank's financial intrest to make sure the ATMs work like they are supposed to and are well audited, so they do.

    This isn't to say they never fuck up, everything fucks up. However the bank watches for that and corrects it. The idea is these things need to be accurate and reliable almost all the time (and they are) so customers trust and use them.

    Now that you don't trust them because of the name on them, doesn't really matter to the bank. The bank knows how well they do or do not work, and presumably they are happy.

    The difference is all in oversight. The banks police their machines for accuracy since the must do so to remain in bussiness. Those involved in the voting process do not necessairly do likewise since it can be to their advantage to rig an election.

  28. Statistical Error by Shihar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    One thing I think people fail to realize is that voting is not exact. If we recounted the vote last election, the number would have changed every single time. The two were so close that statistically, they were tied. Voting is not exact and there is always error. This is the reason why when there was a recount I didn't really care what the outcome was. Sure, I wanted my canidate to win, but the simple fact of the matter was that the two tied and all that was left to do was to play according to the rules of the game to decide who won the tie breaker. Who won the tie breaker had little to do with who actually had more votes.

    My biggest concern with voting is that the occasional ballot will be lost or miscounted. This will happen, and so long as it is random it probably is not going to have much of an effect. The real concern is that someone can break into these machines and really mess up the numbers they spit out. A few hanging chads here and there don't mean anything and are just an excuse to keep recounting until one guy likes the result. Someone maliciously changing votes with one of these e-machines on the other hand can cause some serious damage.

    Personally, I would rather they simply stick to simple paper ballots. True, they get miscounted, but a few random miscounts are a small price to pay prevent real election fraud. People need to keep things in perspective. The real fear is not that every vote isn't counted. The real fear is that votes are counted that are faked. Our goal should be to eliminate voting fraud and work towards reducing voting miscount, but never at the expense of making fraud easier.

  29. "Simple" completely-workable E-Voting Scheme Here! by IBitOBear · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A voting station consists of:

    1) touch-screen computer.
    2) printer.
    3) scanner-fed shredder.

    Polling place consists of:

    1) one-or-more voting stations.
    2) one scanner-fed lock-box "ballot box".
    3) one computer conected to ballot box.
    4) one lable/sticker printer attached to the ballot box computer.
    5) one scanner-fed lock-box "errata box".
    6) one computer conneced to errata box.
    7) one or more trained poll staffers.

    By "scanner fed" I mean a contraption such that an optical scanner reads a document and, after all the barcodes are scanned, if they make sense, the physical document prodeeds to the fed device.

    -- ALL Printers (etc) print on a "reasonably heavy" card stock.

    -- The errata bin scanner, unlike all the other scanners, will not reject/return an unscannable document. The Errata box also has a slot for truly mangled debris sheets. This errata bin should score or deface the ballots so inserted (have a roller splash "void" over their face etc.)

    -- There is no "network", wireless or otherwise, connecting the voting stations to anything.

    How voting procedes:

    1) before polls open the voting system is used to print-up a bunch of "blank" ballots that have psudo-random or sequenced or whatever "GUIDS" and the big black words "this side down" in several languages, and these printed blanks are set up in bins. Blank ballots are printed at (any of) the voting stations using an administrative key or there could be a dedicated blank printer.

    2) The voter aproaches the human who checks the voters ID etc.

    3) The voter the selects, at random, one of the
    "blank" ballots and takes it to a voting station.

    4) The voter scan-and-shred(s) the "blank" ballot to start the touch-screen process.

    5) The voter navigates the touch-screen process in the language of their choice.

    6) When the voter selects "done voting" the card-stock printer prints a completed ballot with (JUST) the name-office or initiative-selection pairs (e.g. President: Bob, or Issue 167: NO) selected by the voter for the issues he wishes vote, the GUID from the "blank" original, an encoded barcode/dotcode splash containing all the votes in machine readable form, the GUID, the "voting station serial number", the "voting station voter-session sequence number" and a checksum.

    7) The voter then leaves the voting station.

    8) The voter visually reviews their ballot print-out.

    9) The voter may then either proceed to the ballot box or back into any voting station to ammend their vote via a scan-and-shred operation.

    9a) If the voter elects to change their vote, they return to any voting station and, do the scan-and-shred operation as in step 3, but the station has read the barcode/dotcode splash and brought up what it read from the splash as the reviewable and changable defaults. The voter carries on.

    9b) If the voter elects to cast his ballot, he takes it to the ballot box, where it is scanned and the ballot is stored in the lock-box.

    10) The voter is given an "I voted" sticker with an MD5 (etc) checksum of their ballot printed on it as produced/recorded by the ballot-box.

    -- Any ballot that is cast into the ballot box should be scored (e.g. roller stamped) with a scanner-cookie barcode that would make the voter stations reject it so that somone couldn't just open the box with a key/pry-bar and take the ballots over to a voter station, and edit them.

    -- The ballot box would reject scanning/honoring a duplicate GUID, preventing all sorts of tampering/stuffing schemes.

    -- A successful post-casting edit attack would be revealed by the mismatch of the nubmer of ballots in the box (physically counted) compared to the number scanned by the box, so there is a check-and-balance.

    -- Any ballot that cannot be scanned by any of this equipment because of dammage (dropped, stepped on, torn, etc) or when a voter decides that something is "queer" is scan-and-stored by (or just p

    --
    Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
    --"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
  30. Why bother with DREs? by spisska · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Let me see if I get this straight.

    The 2000 election was supremely screwed up, particularly in Florida, because people were voting with some old-timey machines that made holes in paper ballots, which could then be counted by machine. Only sometimes the holes didn't punch all the way through, or sometimes the ballots themselves were a little bit confusing.

    The ballots had to be recounted by hand in Florida, with the help of a lot of volunteers and quite a bit of state money in order to deal with these problems -- also that Florida state law (as in most other states) requires a manual recount in case of extremely close races.

    So the solution from the Federal Government is the Help America Vote Act (HAVA) that says states need to have secure, accurate voting machines that meet stringent guidelines for security and accuracy (not to mention accessibility by the disabled). If these machines are electronic, so much the better.

    Under HAVA, the Federal government will grant the states buckets of money ($861 million so far, and plenty more to come) to get their voting machines compliant.

    Only there's a few problems. States don't yet know what being compliant means, because the standards and definitions are still being worked out by the Election Assistance Commission (eac.gov) and the National Institute of Standards and Technology (nist.gov).

    The EAC has got as far as appointing a subcommittee, but they're not due to meet again until Jan 2005, at the earliest.

    What you're left with is states looking for machines they THINK will be compliant with HAVA -- particularly with the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), which calls for private, unassisted voting by blind people -- meaning that the voting machines will have to have audio components that read a person's choices and, before casting a vote, read a person's selections.

    Direct recording electronic (DRE) voting machines are very good in this regard -- they can be very easily customizable at the state level to work at the precinct (or school board district) level.

    But the problems with DREs are well documented -- inaccurate counts, easy (relatively) to manipulate, hackable, etc. And without a hard-copy record, impossible to do a recount.

    So the solution proposed by California Sec of State Kevin Shelly, among others, is to have DREs create a 'voter-verifiable paper audit trail' (his term). Which means that the electronic machines have to print a paper record of the ballot which is then kept securely for recount, if neccessary.

    Now this begs a couple of questions.

    If a jurisdiction uses these fancy new machines to record, tabulate, and transmit vote results electronically, but at the same time has to keep paper copies of the votes for recount, then the paper ballots will surely be subpeonaed after any vote that is reasonably close (say within 5 percent).

    It is a given that the paper ballots are going to be counted anyway, especially considering the number of races (town, county, school district, congressional district, senate, etc.) that are 'close' in any given year.

    What this means is that HAVA is asking states to trash existing, functional machines that produce machine-readible paper ballots, machines that originally cost maybe $300 each and are already paid for, and replace them with new machines that cost more than $1000 each, and produce ballots that will have to be counted by hand.

    Another issue that the press has not yet gotten wind of is the large number of election officials who have retired, gone on early retirement, or changed jobs since 2000. An unprecendented number of chief election officers in counties and states across the country will be supervising their first general elections this November. A comforting thought.

    The outgoing officials saw sense -- that there is a train wreck approaching. An awful lot of people will be voting on machines untested in an actual election environment, and those machines are by many measures inferior to the

  31. Re:ot: splitting the vote by swillden · · Score: 4, Insightful

    According to Kenneth Arrow no voting system can be perfect

    Yes, but some argue that Arrow's requirements of a perfect system were excessively stringent.

    Basically, Arrow took his intuitive ideas about how an ideal system would behave, codified them into well-defined requirements and then proved that they're mutually incompatible. Some argue, however, that one of his requirements was stated more strongly that is intuitively reasonable.

    The criterion in question is the "Independence from Irrelevant Alternatives", which states that addding or removing non-winning candidates should not affect the winner. This seems like a good idea until you consider sufficiently complex situations, in which it becomes clear that there *is* no intuitive right answer and that it is, in fact, reasonable to expect that the introduction of other candidates into a deeply divided electorate may change the outcome, even if the introduced candidates don't win.

    Some variants of the Condorcet system do satisfy a slightly relaxed form of Arrow's Independence from Irrelevant Alternatives criterion. If you're willing to accept the relaxation as "intuitive", then those variants are, indeed, perfect.

    It's also worth noting that the circumstances under which these Condorcet variants fail to meet Arrow's original criterion would occur very, very infrequently in the real world. Even if someone doesn't want to accept the relaxed form of IIA, they still have to admit that, in practice, Condorcet is perfect very nearly all of the time.

    we *could* do a lot better than plurality

    Absolutely.

    --
    Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  32. Lawsuit(s) making GOP nervous ... by quarkscat · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The Bush administration and the GOP dominated
    Congress were very quick to earmark $6 Billion
    for eVoting upgrades, after the "hanging chad"
    problems in the 2000 elections. The push to
    "use it, or lose it" for this money meant a
    rush to adopt some very badly implimented
    solutions from corporate friends of the Bush
    administration.

    So now that the word is out about these crappy
    eVoting machines (WITH NO PAPER AUDIT TRAIL),
    and the Bush administration is now "floating
    trial balloons" in the press about DELAYING
    the November national elections. As well as
    preparing the public to EXPECT terrorist acts
    similar to the Madrid train bombings that would
    be designed to disrupt these elections.

    Doesn't anyone else besides me see a conspiracy
    theory in the making? Like: if the GOP feels
    that they will not win the November elections
    using the SOP of FUD, that there WILL be some
    major terrorist attacks here AND there WILL be
    a delay in the national elections.

    (Pardon me while I put on my tin-foil hat ...)

  33. You're very correct - the parent company is solid! by JimMarch(equalccw) · · Score: 3, Informative

    Diebold *corporate* is financially solid in ATMs, bank vault security, etc.

    Diebold Election Systems is hemmoraging money.

    My theory:

    When Diebold bought Global Elections Systems in...lesse, I *think* the sale was finalized in 2002 with partnerships/investments prior, I don't think the larger corp understood what a pack o' jackals they were dealing with.

    I could be wrong mind you, but...

    OK, here's a piece of evidence. Alameda County first bought their touchscreen voting system off of Global. They signed a contract. When Diebold corporate swallowed Global, the contract was re-written so that BOTH the newly-renamed Diebold Election Systems Inc ("DESI") subsidiary AND the parent company(!) were named co-contractors for Alameda County.

    Which means even if corporate cuts "DESI" loose and destroys them, they're in hock on that contract if it all goes south.

    IF they had suspected the old Global bunch was playing fast and loose with elections laws, they would NEVER have co-signed the contract, would they?

    Second point: we have the stash of Diebold EMails running from 1999 (Global era) through early 2003 (Diebold era). The names of the players involved in the tech support, programming and marketing internal mailing lists DO NOT change. No new management team was brought in from Corporate, no new major names appear, there's virtually no references to new procedures or oversight, nothing.

    My conclusion: corporate thought they were buying a smoothly running little org, rather than a pack of rampaging pirates.

    There's no WAY Diebold corporate can continue hemmoraging CREDIBILITY! Forget the money for a sec - corporate makes their money supplying security gear for BANKS for God's sake. What happens when the banks start saying "errr...hey guys, don't look now but the name "Diebold" has become synonymous with terms like "idiots" and "crooks" and whatnot...".

    And here's the cool part, folks. The really hilarious part.

    All of this has happened before.

    1966. A small electronic voting company called Harris (no relation to Bev!) gets bought by a megacorp...which within a couple of years, realizes that the voting subsidiary is worth 2% of the profits and 80% of the negative PR.

    IBM isn't in the voting business anymore. Took 'em three years to wise up. See also:

    http://www.csl.sri.com/users/neumann/dugger.html

    Y'all can bet your Palm Pilots Diebold Corporate is gonna get the same clue.

    Jim

  34. Re:A LOT worse then that by SnapShot · · Score: 3, Informative

    'In a recent fund-raising letter Diebold's chief executive Walden O'Dell said he is "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year."', The Cleveland Plain Dealer

    --
    Waltz, nymph, for quick jigs vex Bud.
  35. Re:A LOT worse then that by SnapShot · · Score: 5, Informative

    Here's a snippet from CNN. Their quote is, 'In August, O'Dell said in a fund-raising letter for the Ohio Republican Party that he was "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes" to Bush.'

    I'm sorry I don't have a paper copy to hand to you; ironically this is one of the issues that we are discussing on this thread.

    Here's instructions for the future if you need information.
    1. Type "www.google.com" in the location bar of your browser (you might refer to it as "that fancy web thing I've done been hearing so much about").
    2. Press the "enter" key. This submits the "location" you typed in to the "web".
    3. When the "web page" appears, type in the words "diebold deliver ohio" in the little rectangular box.
    4. Once, again, you need to press the "enter" key.
    5. A list of "web pages" appears. Click on one of them using the "left button" of your "mouse". Try and choose a respectable source like "FOX News" or "Monster Truck Week".

    I hope this helps.

    --
    Waltz, nymph, for quick jigs vex Bud.
  36. Re:A LOT worse then that by SnapShot · · Score: 3, Informative
    If you want to go really tinfoil hat (ie. reality under a Rupublican administration) here's some more info...
    Diebold has long claimed it does not track votes on Election Day but Harris said this file of election data from San Luis Obispo County, California shows otherwise.

    "It is impossible for this file to have existed if there wasn't some sort of illicit electronic communication going on for remote access," Harris said.

    "It's against the law to start counting the votes before the polls have closed. But this file is date and time stamped at 3:31 in the afternoon on Election Day, and somehow all 57 precincts managed to call home add them themselves up in the middle of the day. Not only once but three times," Harris said. "If you have no electronic communications between the polling places and the main office, how does that happen? Because what would you literally have to do is to shut down the polling place in 57 places at once and get in a car and drive this card into the county office. That's not going to happen."

    Technically, under the Diebold system that means it is possible for someone who has access to the system to monitor the progress of the voting results throughout the day and to potentially manipulate them. Common Dreams

    Or how about...
    A little less than eight months after steppind down as director of AIS [American Information Systems, another electronic voting Machine company], Hagel surprised national pundits and defied early polls by defeating Benjamin Nelson, the state's popular former governor. It was Hagel's first try for public office. Nebraska elections officials told The Hill that machines made by AIS probably tallied 85 percent of the votes cast in the 1996 vote, although Nelson never drew attention to the connection. Hagel won again in 2002, by a far healthier margin. That vote is still angrily disputed by Hagel's Democratic opponent, Charlie Matulka, who did try to make Hagel's ties to ES&S an issue in the race and who asked that state elections officials conduct a hand recount of the vote. That request was rebuffed, because Hagel's margin of victory was so large. Mother Jones
    --
    Waltz, nymph, for quick jigs vex Bud.