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Why Offshore When Canada's Next Door?
Roblimo writes "A study by accounting and consulting giant PriceWaterhouseCoopers claims Canada could lose up to 75,000 IT jobs by 2010 to offshore outsourcing, but could also *gain* 165,000 jobs through U.S. outsourcing contracts. The trick is, according to this story at IT Manager's Journal, that while Indian, Chinese, and Russian programmers may cost 80% less than U.S. programmers, the time zone, language, legal, and other problems involved with sending work half way around the world can eat up much of the labor savings, while Canadian programmers are nearby, speak English with nearly American accents, have a similar culture and legal system, and get paid 40% less than U.S. programmers. Might be time to think about moving North, eh?"
Okay, type su, eh?
% sua
sua: Command not found
So, you're incapable of using the tech support mantra:
"Well, it works on my end!"
If my answers frighten you, stop asking scary questions.
Although our legal system is "similar", we lack equivalents to silly little things like the DMCA and the Patriot Act.
On the other hand, we're responsible for Celine Dion. On behalf of all Canadians, I apologize profusely.
As a Canadian, I have to say that I'm not here for the money. Yeah, it's a little disturbing that I get paid much less than an American does, but it doesn't bother me THAT much. What really matters to me is that I get paid to do something that I enjoy. And I happen to really enjoy the practice of programming. I will go to where I can get the job I will enjoy the most, regardless of pay, so long as I have enough to take care of myself.
As a Canadian in the IT industry, I'd be glad to see more jobs coming here, definitely. There really is very little difference between Americans and Canadians, besides cultural and political systems. None of that plays into how you sound over the phone, or how well you code.
Canada really is the ideal place for US companies to outsource. If you have a Roadrunner cable modem and have ever called tech support, chances are you've been talking to someone at a local Ottawa firm called Convergys. I bet you never knew it, either.
occultae nullus est respectus musicae - originally a Greek proverb
It seems that the whole "Land of the Free, Home of the Brave" has been outsourced to Canada. While we fight our war on drugs, Canada has sane drug laws. While we meddle in the affairs of every nation on Earth, Canada just keeps on making beer.
Beer == Good.
So, bring it on. Outsource me to Canada. I'll move there, what with their reasonable immigration policies, and shack up with a burly lumberjack babe and start my life anew.
Please bid on this Karmann Ghia! Please pleas
<obligatory British joke> ;)
So they pronouce English slightly better then?
</obligatory British joke>
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You also have to consider that while getting paid less, your cost of living could also be drastically reduced in Canada as well. I used to live in LA and made double than what I do now, but after moving back to Canada, my cost of living is 1/3 of what it used to be. Plus here I don't have to be paranoid about not using ATMs after dark. Of course, I will be a bit biased since I am Canadian.
Well, the cost of living is also around 40% less (or close enough - sometimes less, sometimes more). Toronto and Vancouver are more spendy than Ottawa, Montreal, or Calgary. But you can have a very nice lifestyle making 40% of a New York or San Jose salary in those three cities. Even more so in places like Edmonton, Regina, or Winnipeg.
One challenge would be paying any US debt load (student loan, US car payment, credit card debt) with Canadian dollars.
So, for 40% less than what I'm currently making, I could live in a nation that gives a crap about hockey, has a much smaller crime rate, has major domestic beers that don't taste like piss, and a health care system available to all its citizens?
Where can I sign up? Really.
It's aboot time people recognized this. Ootsourcing is better done in Canada. At least you can understand what people are talking aboot.
I'm not sure that we can trust the Canadians yet. I'm still recovering from Brian Adams.
Cause everyone wants a free Xbox360
Exactly... My guess is that that "40% less" is not 40% less than all states... just the ones that pay a lot, like California.
But since the cost of living is so high in L.A. and San Fran things start to work out. From what I've seen living in both countries is that dollar for dollar many items are the same price or at least close. An American $499 Dell is Canadian $550. An American $2.00 loaf of bread is $1.00 Canadian.
My standard of living will not be changing too much when I move from the States to Canada. Even though I'm taking a pay cut.
"Looks like I'll be moving up north" or
"Where do I sign up?"
Well, you can Sign up here
Thats the Citizenship and Immigration Canada website, with all the forms and whatnot for admission to the country. Enjoy!
Unix is mysterious, and ancient, and strong. It's made of cast iron and the bones of heroic programmers of old -
Living in Canada, you may be making 40% less, but you cost of living is essentially 40% less as well, and that's including all the taxes and pension plans we pay.
Consider that a chocolate bar or a can of Coke costs $1cdn here and when across the border the same candy or Coke costs $1usd, that alone accounts for the cost of living savings. Americans can't buy new Canadian cars and import them back to the US because they are cheaper here.
Granted living in NYC has its advantages, but don't compare a large city such as NYC to some small city in Canada. Compare it to cities like Toronto, and Montreal, where you can do just the same things, and probably experience MORE culture there than in NYC. These are large international cities that host world events such as NYC, and dramatically a lot safer too. No worries of gun toting bandits in Canada.
- I once went to a sporting goods store in the US, and found stacks and stacks of bullets sitting on the floor without any sort of security with a sign marks "On sale, 25% off all calibre bullets and shotgun shells". Don't they lock up dangerous goods behind secure areas???
Live forever, or die trying.
No, don't move up north. We have the same problem here as the United States does. Too many programmers not enough jobs. That's why it's so damn cheap.
You'll find it even harder to find a job then we do being a foreigner without a permanent visa.
"3)Living in NYC has it's own advantages. Here, I can go Tango Dancing every day of the week, see the best museums, never have to drive the death machine we call an automobile, can go out drinking without worrying about how I am getting home, can see world class plays, theater, etc. etc. etc. Living in Canada would be a marked decrease in my Life Style. It might be OK for people that don;t care about this kind of stuff, but not for me."
Wow, what's Tango Dancing? Museums? What the hell are plays?
This NYC place seems pretty darned fancy-looking! I should save up my 40% weaker Canadian dollars, sell my moose lodge, canoe down there, and experience what can only conceivably be a DREAM CITY IN THE **KING CLOUDS, YOU SELF-INFATUATED NY MORON.
You think freaking Tango lessons set NYC apart from the world? If *that's* your basis for judgement, you'd do us all a favour and stay put, friend.
This wasn't just plain terrible, this was fancy terrible. This was terrible with raisins in it. - Dorothy Parker
I'm a software developer in Toronto, my brother is a developer in Sunnyvale, CA. He has 2 years more experience than me, but is comparable in skill and experience. He makes 30-40% more (30% now, but that's because the Canadian dollar is doing better against the $US) and pays 5-10% more for rent. The cost of living is higher in the states, but if you are living in a big city in Canada (Toronto, Ottawa, Vancouver, not so much Montreal) the cost of living isn't that much lower.
This post cannot be rebroadcast without the express written constent of Major League Baseball.
Tax rates are tiered in Canada. For someone making $50,000 Canadian a year, their yearly tax would be about $12,000--this includes fed + prov + Canada Pension Plan + tax credits.
The approximate tax rates are (fed+prov combined):
Up to 35,000: ~22%
Up to ~70,000: ~31%
Over 70,000: ~38%
But we also receive tax credits, and if you contribute $ to your retirement savings plan you can greatly reduce the amount of tax paid.
Overall I pay about 26% tax on my yearly income. Nowhere near 50%!
Celine Dion is our weapon of mass destruction!
Heck, if we ever attack a country, she's on the front line singing her heart out. After one of her Monster Ballots, we just walk in with our hockey sticks and Zambonies and clean up the enemies. We don't need fancy things like short range tactical missles, or ugh.. tanks, guns, ammunition.
Actually, on a serious note, I like it that we don't spend anything on military. In the simpson's they used the joke (excuse me if I get this wrong):
Scorpio: "What country do you like the least, Italy or France"
Homer: "France"
Scorpio: "No one ever says Italy"
Then Scorpio blows up France. Well I like it that to the rest of the world Canada = Italy. The U.S. = France.
I can just imagine terrorist meeting... "Guys what country do you like the least? Canada or the US?"
-asoap
Treat me like a marketing stat, and I'll treat your movie like a series of ones and zeros
This whole thing is stupid. Say a New York City or San Francisco company saves money by outsourcing to Canada, a place where a housing isn't $400 a square foot and salaries are not inflated. They could probably get very similar savings if they oursourced to WVa or TN and be sung praises as heros for boosting local American economies. On the same note, west coast and east coast companies spending millions on leases for data centers could save millions by moving to America's heartland. Plus they could just leave the windows open in the colder months and reduce their electric bills for cooling. Ok, the last part is a stretch.
'Same speed C but faster'
Where I live in Illinois, the cost of living is:
And my city is slightly above the national average for cost of living.
I'd like to know how you're paying 50% tax.
The maximum tax rate in Canada at the federal level is 29%, and that kicks in when you make more than $113,000. Since the tax rate is progressive, you pay nothing on the first $8000, 16% on the money between $8000 and $35,000, 22% on the money between $35,000 and $70,000, and 26% on the money between $70,000 and $113,000.
The highest tax rate in the country is in Newfoundland/Labrador, and at it's MAXIMUM, you pay a TOTAL (that means including federal tax) of 47.02% on money over $113,000. Remember that the tax rate is progressive. If you make $113,001, you pay 47 cents of tax on that ONE DOLLAR, but everything below that is taxed at a lower rate.
Nowhere in Canada does you full tax approach 50%. You may be paying anywhere from 30% - 40%, depending on how good a job you have.
In Alberta (the lowest tax rate in the country - a flat rate of 10%), your personal exemption is $14,337 and the federal exemption is $8012. You pay 16% federal tax up to $35,000, and a flat 10% provincial tax.
So, we'll do provincial tax first. You only have to pay tax on $20667 because of the exemption. It's 10%, so you pay $2067 provincial tax.
Federally, you would pay tax on 26988. The rate is 16% in this bracket, so that's $4318. That's a grand total of $6385 on $35,000. That works out to a total of about 18% of your gross income.
Please stop saying that we're taxed at 50%. It simply isn't true. I've given you the number, and you can do the math yourself. NOBODY IN CANADA PAYS 50% TAX.
Whether or not there's corruption and waste in the government is another discussion. (Though it is worth noting that while the government pissed our money away, the books were still balanced. We haven't had a deficit budget in years.)
Oh, and here's where I got the tax info from. Check my math yourself. It's possible that I made a mistake, but the conclusion is still true.
http://www.taxtips.ca/tax_rates.htm
Close, but we would actually say this: sZedBufferEh
Exactly... My guess is that that "40% less" is not 40% less than all states... just the ones that pay a lot, like California.
:-)
Try using the International Salary Calculator, it's handy. According to that, if you made $80,000 USD in San Francisco, you'd need to make just over $60,000 USD in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada (a.k.a. "Silicon Valley North") to enjoy the same standard of living. Also, Ottawa is one of the top 5 most expensive places to live in Canada.
The biggest difference, of course, is that housing is cheaper in Canada, and so is food. You save a LOT on your medical expenses, since Americans spend on average $5400 USD per year on medical expenses, and Canadians only spend about $3500 on average, (if I remember correctly), but get better care than the average American, though I suppose not as nice as the richest.
Also, depending on the province you live in, you can save a lot of money if they have non-profit government run auto insurance. As well, automobiles themselves are cheaper, even ones built on the same assembly line. If you want to check, go to gm.com and do a "build your own vehicle", then do the same exact thing on gmcanada.com, and compare the final MSRPs. You have to do the conversion for the exchange, but it's much cheaper in Canada, even with the higher tax rate.
Gas is more expensive in Canada (about 25% higher, depending) due to taxes, but the cities are smaller, so you tend to spend less time commuting. Other things taxed more are alcohol and cigarettes, but that's supposed to help pay for the health care. Might as well be the drinkers and smokers that carry the burden there, eh?
Food is cheaper in Canada, but clothing is more expensive. Electronics are more expensive, but you can always get a buddy to pick something up for you in the U.S. at cheaper prices.
Broadband internet access is generally wider spread in Canada, and cheaper, because Canadians are more urban than our American counterparts.
Income tax itself isn't that much different anymore, though it used to be. I know for certain, since I have to file both. I'm a computer engineer, and I find that I would pay the same in either country, within a couple hundred dollars. Sales tax, of course, is higher in Canada.
If you're right leaning, you can always move to Alberta, which is a booming wild west place. If you'd prefer the government pay your way, there's always the east coast, and if you're a greenpeace member, there's always the west coast. If you're an accountant, then you'll be at home in Ontario, but Quebec's always close by for those big let-your-hair-down parties. In particular, if you can't shovel snow, Toronto's the place for you, because if it ever snows more than 3 cm, they'll declare a state of emergency and call the army in to shovel your driveway for you.
Just to be fair... Manitoba's population density is 1.9 people per square kilometre and if your dog runs away there, you can still see him running 3 days later, and Saskatchewan is a cooler version of Arizona (dog thing also applies, but the dog will probably be eaten alive by grasshoppers by the 3rd day).
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain