Why Offshore When Canada's Next Door?

Roblimo writes "A study by accounting and consulting giant PriceWaterhouseCoopers claims Canada could lose up to 75,000 IT jobs by 2010 to offshore outsourcing, but could also *gain* 165,000 jobs through U.S. outsourcing contracts. The trick is, according to this story at IT Manager's Journal, that while Indian, Chinese, and Russian programmers may cost 80% less than U.S. programmers, the time zone, language, legal, and other problems involved with sending work half way around the world can eat up much of the labor savings, while Canadian programmers are nearby, speak English with nearly American accents, have a similar culture and legal system, and get paid 40% less than U.S. programmers. Might be time to think about moving North, eh?"

Comments

Well, I'm one example

[FractusMan]

I work for MSN - MSN which is not offered in Canada, but most of the tech support sites (or so it seems) are located here in Canada.

Re:Well, I'm one example

[irokitt]

So, you're incapable of using the tech support mantra:

"Well, it works on my end!"

Re:Well, I'm one example

[OECD]

I thought that one of the big attractions of India et al. is that they're on the other side of the planet, so they can effectively extend the work day overnight. Are there going to be a bunch of third shift programming positions opening in Toronto?

Re:Well, I'm one example

[Qamelian]

Not the website, the ISP. MSN provides internet access through a partner company called Qwest that Microsoft bought into a year or so back. That service is not available in Canada.

Re:Well, I'm one example

[DrWhizBang]

Yes we can - we don't use MSN.

Re:Well, I'm one example

[phoenix_rizzen]

RoadRunner and HP tech support is done out of a small town in British Columbia known as Kamloops. They also handle US accounts for American Express (damn, you guys get a hell of a lot more bonuses, perks, and extras than the Canadian side of American Express).

Horrible place to work for, though. $11 / hr for phone support, $9 / hr for customer sales support. Great benefits, but doesn't make up for it at all. All trainees spend 3 months doing the 5am - 1:30pm shift. After that, they change your shift based on your test / training scores. They're the biggest employer in the city, yet have the highest turn over rate of any business in the city (gee, I wonder why?).

Re:Well, I'm one example

[dasmegabyte]

No, the big attraction of India is that it's popular with big name companies, so all the idiot pretenders can jump on the bandwagon. After all, time at a keyboard is the least important part of creating an effective program. Most of the real work is done in brainstorming sessions with experts and customers. The further insulated your developers and support staff are from the user base, the less effective they become...but right now, "cost savings" is seen as a bigger issue than "effective work," because sales are down and companies are afraid of shareholder lawsuits if they don't cut costs -- costs other than executive salaries, of course.

In about three years, the big names will notice that product quality and sales have dropped dramatically while adjunct costs of outsourcing kept the price per product about the same, and they'll start looking to hire people here to clean things up. Either that, or all the great little startups popping up in this country will steal away their business.

Oh, and maybe we'll get lucky and companies will reverse the process, start hiring Indian executives willing to work for mere hundreds of thousands a year, rather than millions. This will help us effectively extend the slacking-off day.

And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[gurps_npc]

I am not willing to move north to get a job that pays 40% less than what is available here. I'd rather work outside my field.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[Anonymous Coward]

paid 40% and taxed 50%!

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[Grey Ninja]

As a Canadian, I have to say that I'm not here for the money. Yeah, it's a little disturbing that I get paid much less than an American does, but it doesn't bother me THAT much. What really matters to me is that I get paid to do something that I enjoy. And I happen to really enjoy the practice of programming. I will go to where I can get the job I will enjoy the most, regardless of pay, so long as I have enough to take care of myself.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[dnoyeb]

What if the cost of living was close to 40% less?

Think of Canada as another state. Except that while they tax you in Canada, they actually seem to do something with the tax dollars besides 'defence' spending.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[dontspellsogood]

But pay $6,000 for a night in the hospital?

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[Anonymous Coward]

You also have to consider that while getting paid less, your cost of living could also be drastically reduced in Canada as well. I used to live in LA and made double than what I do now, but after moving back to Canada, my cost of living is 1/3 of what it used to be. Plus here I don't have to be paranoid about not using ATMs after dark. Of course, I will be a bit biased since I am Canadian.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[count0]

Well, the cost of living is also around 40% less (or close enough - sometimes less, sometimes more). Toronto and Vancouver are more spendy than Ottawa, Montreal, or Calgary. But you can have a very nice lifestyle making 40% of a New York or San Jose salary in those three cities. Even more so in places like Edmonton, Regina, or Winnipeg.

One challenge would be paying any US debt load (student loan, US car payment, credit card debt) with Canadian dollars.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[ploppy]

You miss the point. The choice is between earning 40%+ less doing something else, or earning 40% less by moving north. The high paying IT job is gone.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[dsanfte]

I've never understood this. How is our standard of living lower? We have everything you do.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[madprogrammer]

Exactly... My guess is that that "40% less" is not 40% less than all states... just the ones that pay a lot, like California.

But since the cost of living is so high in L.A. and San Fran things start to work out. From what I've seen living in both countries is that dollar for dollar many items are the same price or at least close. An American $499 Dell is Canadian $550. An American $2.00 loaf of bread is $1.00 Canadian.

My standard of living will not be changing too much when I move from the States to Canada. Even though I'm taking a pay cut.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[Dr Caleb]

KPMG (the accounting firm) rated Edmonton as the #1 place to live in the western hemisphere as far as quality of living, tax levels, housing prices and job market.

It's no wonder why we're home to Bioware, Quicken, and large support centers for General Electric and Hewlett Packard.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[iMMersE]

You don't have as many murders. Life just isn't as much fun if you know you're going to get home safely ...

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[Anonymous Coward]

some might be smarter than others, but yours aren't.

1) Your 40% cut does not have a linear connection to cost or standard of living, nor to disposable income. You have to consider two jobs in two places with full information about taxation (marginal taxation in Canada is not as far from US as most seem to thing, btw), cost of goods, etc.

2) Now you are talking about disposable income, which you get to decide to save. This also involves tax law (e.g. 401(c) vs. RRSP) etc.

3) Montreal, for example, is one of the top cities in North America for culture. No, it isn't NYC, but neither is any other US city.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[ViolentGreen]

What really matters to me is that I get paid to do something that I enjoy.

Yes. That truely is what matters. Am I correct in supposing the cost of living in Canada is similar to that of the Northern US? I'm sure it is significantly less then tech-heavy places like California.

If US companies are considering outsourcing to Canada, it seems like they could try other places in the US where they could hire people for less then in California or NY.

I live in Lexington, Ky which, despite being in a state with an agriculture based economy, has a fairly large tech community. Some big name companies here are IBM and Lexmark (LEXmark LEXington.) I read somewhere where Lexington is ranked 9th in US cities in percentages of persons with at least a Bachelors degree. It's a city where you can live lavishly or have a quiet and comfortable life. Hey, I've even seen Shatner in a coffee shop here.

I think there are still lots of opportunities in the US before the Canada route is taken. There are places other then the West Coast available for programming/tech jobs.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[iMMersE]

You bin to Canada recently?

I tried to bin Canada last week, but it was way too big, and the garbage collectors wouldn't take it.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[Qamelian]

The cost of living varies from one part of the country to another, but in general it's not bad. For consumer goods, most prices are reasonable when compared to the US. Same for housing. Strangely, when I was in New England last year, I was surpised to find that it was almost 35% cheaper to buy audio CDs at home in Nova Scotia than to buy them in the US where I would have thought the larger population would have caued the CDs to be at least a bit cheaper. Instead I found discs that were priced around $18.99US (about $26CDN) the same CDs at home were selling for $15-$18CDN.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[RLW]

Especially snow. Better beer, but way lots more snow. The summers are nice there but winter comes with way lots more snow. Did I mention the snow ? If you like lots of snow most of the year then Canada is a really nice place to live. Not too crowded, laid back, good beer, but lots of snow. Somewhere I came across a statistic about how something like 80 or 90 percent of Canadians live with in 60 or 80 miles of it's southern border: something about even lots more snow further north. I figure with global warming Canada will be a really nice place to live year round in about 200 years.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[Oopsz]

Here, I can go Tango Dancing every day of the week, see the best museums, never have to drive the death machine we call an automobile, can go out drinking without worrying about how I am getting home, can see world class plays, theater, etc. etc. etc. Living in Canada would be a marked decrease in my Life Style.

Someone's never been to Montréal...

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[Ced_Ex]

Living in Canada, you may be making 40% less, but you cost of living is essentially 40% less as well, and that's including all the taxes and pension plans we pay.

Consider that a chocolate bar or a can of Coke costs $1cdn here and when across the border the same candy or Coke costs $1usd, that alone accounts for the cost of living savings. Americans can't buy new Canadian cars and import them back to the US because they are cheaper here.

Granted living in NYC has its advantages, but don't compare a large city such as NYC to some small city in Canada. Compare it to cities like Toronto, and Montreal, where you can do just the same things, and probably experience MORE culture there than in NYC. These are large international cities that host world events such as NYC, and dramatically a lot safer too. No worries of gun toting bandits in Canada.

- I once went to a sporting goods store in the US, and found stacks and stacks of bullets sitting on the floor without any sort of security with a sign marks "On sale, 25% off all calibre bullets and shotgun shells". Don't they lock up dangerous goods behind secure areas???

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[rikkards]

Cost of living is less.. if you are getting paid in American dollars. It appears that the major companies that work on both side of the border in general seem to be starting to price their products the same just in the countries currency i.e $10Cdn = $10US. Cuts down on accounting issues.

However my trips to the states have shown that getting premium liquors (i.e scotch but not beer) is cheaper in Canada (esp Alberta and NorthWest Territories)

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[ploppy]

That's where the US perhaps differs to the UK. I couldn't get an IT job paying 20%-30% less in the UK. In the UK when they see a PhD and principal engineer experience, they assume you'll leave at the first opportunity for a better higher paying job.

In general when companies ask for a 'graduate engineer' (an an example) that's what they want, some-one inexperienced, docile and easily trained to their way of thinking. Its no good being an experienced guy who insists he's happy with the money and the responsibility. They won't believe you.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[spuke4000]

I'm a software developer in Toronto, my brother is a developer in Sunnyvale, CA. He has 2 years more experience than me, but is comparable in skill and experience. He makes 30-40% more (30% now, but that's because the Canadian dollar is doing better against the $US) and pays 5-10% more for rent. The cost of living is higher in the states, but if you are living in a big city in Canada (Toronto, Ottawa, Vancouver, not so much Montreal) the cost of living isn't that much lower.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[wfeick]

Under NAFTA, don't the US and Canada have the same policy towards each other?

I'm a Canadian who came to the US under the Canada-US free trade agreement (the precursor to NAFTA) and all I had to do was show that I was a Canadian citizan, that I had a degree in one of the listed areas, and that I had a job offer from a US company. I paid a $50 processing fee at the border, and was given a one year work visa renewable indefinitely.

Admittedly, I came to the US 14 years ago, but I was under the impression things were pretty much the same under NAFTA.

Is it more difficult than that for US citizens to work in Canada?

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[Anonymous Coward]

you can tango dance to your hearts content in toronto or montreal just like in NYC. Toronto has the second largest of theatres in North America second only to New York (even more than LA). You can get home by taking cabs, transit and oh yes, get this you can even walk home at 3 in the morning without getting mugged.

I think your arguement that you cant get culture in Canada doesnt have any real basis.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[king-manic]

40% less problably refers partly to the exchange difference, party to the fact that you have Cali skewing your stats. The cost of living and high average wage makes the average US wage seem much higher. Also cost of living here is much less.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[gurps_npc]

You misunderstand. 40% less for a pension plan is BAD, not good.

I take 20% of my salary now and save it away. It has grown to about $100,000. If I had a job in Canada, that would mean I would only have $60,000 saved up isntead of $100,000.

YEs, moving to Canada after you retire makes a lot of sense, but to anyone that is currently saving to retire, it makes FAR more sense to get the higher paying job.

If I lived in Toronto I could only go tango dancing 5 days a week, not 7. And I would not have choice of Milongas. I would HAVE to own a car, and have to worry about how I am getting home when I am drunk because your public transportation system is not as good as NYC's, especially late at night. You do have some nice plays and museums, but NYC has a slight edge there.

While in New York City, I have NEVER, NOT ONCE, seen a gun in the hands of anyone except a NYC cop. NYC is currently one of the safest cities in North America, and like you said , you we have to compare Toronto to NYC, not general Canada to general USA.

Canada is a nice place to retire too, but I wouldn't want to work there.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[HBPiper]

Of course, I went and believed a person from B.C. who told me this and now I look it up and much to my chagrin....... It ain't so.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[dswartze]

After things like your pay that you take home, the cost may be lower, there's far more stuff that the government pays for up here. Which seems like something else, with the government providing more services than in the States, does that mean these companies would have to pay less for benefits? Problem is you get taxed quite a bit more than you guys do down there. All in all, I welcome these american jobs, I'm 3 years from graduating, and would like to be able to find a job when I'm done school.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[scowling]

50%? Uh, no.

I just got my paycheque. My income tax deduction was 20.097%, and I have extra taken off to ensure that I won't owe at the end of the year.

I'm a technical worker, and my income is higher than the median income, nationally.

Even if I paid GST and PST on every dollar I spent, my total tax rate could not be higher than 34.597%, logically, given 7% GST and 7.5% GST. Sure, there are those hidden taxes, such as on gas or liquour, but I think it all balances out. My tax rate is not more than 35%.

I have read that in Norway it is possible to be taxed at a rate that is higher than your income, so I suspect that their median tax rate is hgiher than Canada's.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[RobinH]

Exactly... My guess is that that "40% less" is not 40% less than all states... just the ones that pay a lot, like California.

Try using the International Salary Calculator, it's handy. According to that, if you made $80,000 USD in San Francisco, you'd need to make just over $60,000 USD in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada (a.k.a. "Silicon Valley North") to enjoy the same standard of living. Also, Ottawa is one of the top 5 most expensive places to live in Canada.

The biggest difference, of course, is that housing is cheaper in Canada, and so is food. You save a LOT on your medical expenses, since Americans spend on average $5400 USD per year on medical expenses, and Canadians only spend about $3500 on average, (if I remember correctly), but get better care than the average American, though I suppose not as nice as the richest.

Also, depending on the province you live in, you can save a lot of money if they have non-profit government run auto insurance. As well, automobiles themselves are cheaper, even ones built on the same assembly line. If you want to check, go to gm.com and do a "build your own vehicle", then do the same exact thing on gmcanada.com, and compare the final MSRPs. You have to do the conversion for the exchange, but it's much cheaper in Canada, even with the higher tax rate.

Gas is more expensive in Canada (about 25% higher, depending) due to taxes, but the cities are smaller, so you tend to spend less time commuting. Other things taxed more are alcohol and cigarettes, but that's supposed to help pay for the health care. Might as well be the drinkers and smokers that carry the burden there, eh? :-)

Food is cheaper in Canada, but clothing is more expensive. Electronics are more expensive, but you can always get a buddy to pick something up for you in the U.S. at cheaper prices.

Broadband internet access is generally wider spread in Canada, and cheaper, because Canadians are more urban than our American counterparts.

Income tax itself isn't that much different anymore, though it used to be. I know for certain, since I have to file both. I'm a computer engineer, and I find that I would pay the same in either country, within a couple hundred dollars. Sales tax, of course, is higher in Canada.

If you're right leaning, you can always move to Alberta, which is a booming wild west place. If you'd prefer the government pay your way, there's always the east coast, and if you're a greenpeace member, there's always the west coast. If you're an accountant, then you'll be at home in Ontario, but Quebec's always close by for those big let-your-hair-down parties. In particular, if you can't shovel snow, Toronto's the place for you, because if it ever snows more than 3 cm, they'll declare a state of emergency and call the army in to shovel your driveway for you.

Just to be fair... Manitoba's population density is 1.9 people per square kilometre and if your dog runs away there, you can still see him running 3 days later, and Saskatchewan is a cooler version of Arizona (dog thing also applies, but the dog will probably be eaten alive by grasshoppers by the 3rd day).

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[pszuch]

I had to register just to rebutt the safety comment here. While NYC has done a remarkable job in lowering its crime rate (down 80% in a few years), it is still nowhere near Toronto. The five boroughs murder rate of 70/million is still 3x higher than torontos 24/million. The same holds true for the national averages. http://www.primetimecrime.com/Recent/Sun%20BC%20ra nks.htm

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[swordboy]

Consider that a chocolate bar or a can of Coke costs $1cdn here and when across the border the same candy or Coke costs $1usd, that alone accounts for the cost of living savings.

You must be a sugar fanatic.

Seriously.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[Magic5Ball]

Am I correct in supposing the cost of living in Canada is similar to that of the Northern US? I'm sure it is significantly less then tech-heavy places like California.

Not as such. Just as there is cost of living diversity among states and cities in the U.S., there are differences among provinces and even cities therein.

Here in Alberta (debt-free province, no provincial sales tax, top 3 IT hubs in Canada), cost of living and wages are approximately 10-15 per cent less than in Toronto, Ontario. However, services like education can be up to 50 per cent cheaper than in Ontario or BC. Within Alberta, prices for many consumer goods and services are about 10-15 per cent cheaper in Edmonton than in Calgary, while the total cost of a four year degree costs about $1,500 more per student than it does in Calgary (yet students pay approximately the same in tuition). In both Edmonton and Calgary, it is possible for one to live comfortably on approximately $US 11,000 per year gross, and still be called a yuppie.

Interestingly, Edmonton is always in demand for computer tech people with experience in the oil industry while Calgary seems to have a bit of a glut of such individuals at the moment. Some combination of the three hour drive between the cities, and the different cultures is appearently keeping the natural solution from emerging.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[Dr.Zong]

In particular, if you can't shovel snow, Toronto's the place for you, because if it ever snows more than 3 cm, they'll declare a state of emergency and call the army in to shovel your driveway for you.

Oh, it would be so much funnier if it weren't true! Good ol' Mel!!! And I must say, it wasn't really that bad, ok, my car had some issues getting up this one hill on the way to class, but seriously... CBC - Toronto Calls in the Army

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[ArbitraryConstant]

ahhh... but try Calgary. Filled with big oil companies, has one of the lowest costs of living in the US or Canada.

I make 40% less here than I did in Houston, but my quality of life is almost identical. On top of that, while I didn't save much in Houston, I save a lot every month here.

Plus, you know... not in Texas. w00t.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[Sepper]

I'm a computer engineer

For Americans this could be a downside:
You can't be called an Engineer if you didn't do a 4 year college program... like, for exemple, MIT...

So no "Sales Engineer" around here...

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[rapett0]

I agree. Having been born and raised in Chicago, moved various other major cities, went to the University of Kentucky, then to NYC, now I am in SoCal. Many places around the country do have substantially lower costs of living (in US, but I am sure applies to most countries), while still actually paying a decent amount (say in KY, in Dyslexington or Lville). I do alright now in Cali, but I busted my ass, the OC is freaking expensive! My rent is *four* times what it was in Lexington. Plus you got UK (and several other schools) in Lexington for your educational needs, without having to drive two hours in rush hour to some UC school here.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[MagikSlinger]

paid 40% and taxed 50%! [ Reply to This ]

Where does this 50% figure come from? The most I pay in combined Provincial & Federal taxes is about 35%.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[God! Awful 2]

Of course, I went and believed a person from B.C. who told me this and now I look it up and much to my chagrin....... It ain't so.

That study is probably misleading in this case because it doesn't take into account the local pay scale. Vancouver is still damned expensive. The houses cost a fortune, gas costs 10% more than Eastern Canada due to taxes & transportation, groceries cost more due to transportation and because the union at Safeway has such a sweet deal, and golf costs 20% more. Internet costs the same though.

-a

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Just to add another data point:

I'm a software engineer living in Vancouver, making $50k Canadian a year. That works out to about $33k Cdn after taxes.

Rent for a 1 bedroom basement suite in a nice area (Kerrisdale) is $825/month, includes basic utilities, but phone ($40/month) and ADSL ($25/month) is extra.

Car insurance is about $1400/year, I get a 40% safe driver discount, and I'm a 20-something male that drives a Firebird. :)

Food costs me about $200/month although that isn't very accurate since that includes making dinner for the girlfriend, etc.

Gas is fairly expensive, it's been hovering around 92c/L.

CD's are cheap in Vancouver because of A&B Sound. Top 40ish artist picked at random:

http://www.absound.ca/ProductDetailMusic.aspx?Pr od Type=Music&SKU=7559628922

$18.00 CDN for a new, popular CD.

The best thing about living in Vancouver is the range of outdoor activities available to everyone, hiking, fishing, hunting, climbing, sailing, etc.. I'm not into the bar scene so I have no idea what that is like.

Canadian tech support is a pain in the ass

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, type su, eh?
% sua
sua: Command not found

Re:Canadian tech support is a pain in the ass

[Yosemite Sue]

You're joking but ...

I once was involved in a tech support call while I was in the US (I was doing the calling) where I was asked to spell out a username that had a "z" in it. Being Canadian, I used "zed". Every time I said "zed", the tech support woman said "What?".

I felt pretty dumb once I realized the issue.

Are costs of living...

[double-oh three]

Are costs of living about 40% less as well?

For the Record

[pete-classic]

I live in Denver and will work for 40% less than average. And I don't say "eh?" all the time.

-Peter

40% Less Pay

[HomerJay]

I work in the US about 5 hours from the Canadian border and I get paid about 40% less than the average US programmer.

The land of the free

[Anonymous Coward]

Although our legal system is "similar", we lack equivalents to silly little things like the DMCA and the Patriot Act.

On the other hand, we're responsible for Celine Dion. On behalf of all Canadians, I apologize profusely.

Re:The land of the free

[Linuxthess]

Ummmm... what about the blank CD-R levy you guys pay?

Re:The land of the free

[MySt1k]

we pay blank CD-R levy but we cant get sued by MPAA/RIAA.

Re:The land of the free

[Stoutlimb]

Having listened to pop music from the united states, and watched their tv, I can certainly say that the Canadian Content rule is most certainly a form of quality control. :-))

But seriously though, US media is a threat to national unity. If we allowed the airwaves to be flooded with US stuff, we'd lose a good deal of our Canadian identity.

Always a good thing

[dsanfte]

As a Canadian in the IT industry, I'd be glad to see more jobs coming here, definitely. There really is very little difference between Americans and Canadians, besides cultural and political systems. None of that plays into how you sound over the phone, or how well you code.

Canada really is the ideal place for US companies to outsource. If you have a Roadrunner cable modem and have ever called tech support, chances are you've been talking to someone at a local Ottawa firm called Convergys. I bet you never knew it, either.

Re:Always a good thing

[Marillion]

#ifdef NITPICK

Strictly speaking, Convergys is headquartered in Cincinnati, Ohio. It is the result of what happended when a firm called CBIS aquired, merged and otherwise assimilated variety of other firms then changed its name. CBIS (Cincinnati Bell Information Systems) was, as the name implies, a spin-off of the local telephone company.

They are no doubt taking advantage of wage advantages described in the article.

#endif

Canada, a Freedom Loving America

[Cavio]

It seems that the whole "Land of the Free, Home of the Brave" has been outsourced to Canada. While we fight our war on drugs, Canada has sane drug laws. While we meddle in the affairs of every nation on Earth, Canada just keeps on making beer.

Beer == Good.

So, bring it on. Outsource me to Canada. I'll move there, what with their reasonable immigration policies, and shack up with a burly lumberjack babe and start my life anew.

Re:Canada, a Freedom Loving America

[Laxitive]

I dunno. My family, which was an Indian immigrant family living in the US, didn't have much in the way of problems immigrating to Canada. I think all in all, the process took less than two years. The barrier of entry to become a part of canadian society, is, in my experience, much lower than in the states.

Even getting citizenship in Canada is a breeze compared to the states, especially for us "third world escapees". After I had lived here for 5 years, I applied for citizenship, and within a year and half, had gone through the entire process.

I don't know where you're getting those statements from, but they definitely don't reflect my experience with Canadian immigration. I find the bureaucracy here to be much more tempered than in the states. Not nearly as much red tape to deal with.

-Laxitive

Its been happening for years.....

[luckytroll]

Outsourcing to Canada has been going on for a while, mostly because of Canada's trusted status in matters of security. Even the evil Haliburton corporations big clusters are now living happily in Toronto along with dozens of others. I should know - I installed them - (and my karma aches for it)

This is like unemployment numbers

[HBI]

Everyone talks about first-time unemployment claims, but very few take the time to track what happens to the unemployed over time. Ditto for outsourcing projects. Most of the ones i've heard of or been involved with were ultimately cancelled due to incongruent labor laws, time differences, language barriers, quality control issues, et al.

heh

[Mr_Silver]

speak English with nearly American accents

<obligatory British joke>
So they pronouce English slightly better then? ;)
</obligatory British joke>

Re:heh

[AliasTheRoot]

They should outsource to the UK, wages and cost of living here are only 50% more...

Why not outsource to me in West Virginia...

[Cycline3]

Why not outsource to me in West Virginia...? I work cheaper than all of them combined. There are plenty of people in the USA who will work for less - it's better than no work at all.

Re:Why not outsource to me in West Virginia...

[kmankmankman2001]

Why not outsource to me in West Virginia...? Probably afraid of the language barrier. :)

Cost of Living

[Anonymous Coward]

That depends. If cost of living is equivalent, or better, then I wouldn't mind it at all. If a house costs 85,000 instead of 220,000 (standard here in AZ), then I'd take that cut in pay.

This is why people are leaving California. Cost of Living. They may make 100,000 a year, but have to pay 450,000 for a 1 bedroom 1 bath 'house'- with no yard or garage.

If You Choose To Move...

[Greenisus]

You'll have to learn the Canadian alphabet:

A, ay!, B, ay!, C, ay!, D, ay! . . . .

/thanks, don't forget to tip the bar

Big $$$ in the Great White North

[Musagetes]

Yes, it's true - you can make as much as $40,000 Canadian dollars in programming. That's only $30,000 in American dollars but you might be able to own a house on that.

Seriously, most of my fellow Canadians where I live are happy to have jobs in IT at all, and guys working in American call centres doing dubious 'IT' work like selling photocopiers make more than the programmers I know.

Want your fries without gravy?

[TimTheFoolMan]

While it's true that the accents are "nearly the same," there are *some* diffs that will creep in.

BTW, even the McDonald's in Ottawa would offer gravy on their fries. Gravy on McDONALD'S FRIES??? What is this heresy?

Tim

Overhead Absurd

[artlu]

This is very interesting because the population in Canada is not nearly what India/China come close too. For my company, we can have 20 Indian guys trained and if 10 of them leave we still have 10 more. However, if I goto Canada, I can have 4 Canadians to train and if 2 leave, my project will fail due to not enough resources and/or time to train new hires. While the overall cost savings may be equal, the total amount of resources will be much lower.
Aj

GroupShares Inc. - A Free and Interactive Stock Trading Community

Re:Overhead Absurd

[tgrigsby]

For my company, we can have 20 Indian guys trained and if 10 of them leave we still have 10 more.


That's 10 programmers that:

a. Have a tough time understanding what you're saying and making themselves understood.

b. Don't completely understand our social and business culture.

c. Will typically do only what is outlined in any spec you give them, or more importantly their interpretation of your spec, and will typically work to a level and standard they are comfortable with but that doesn't meet the generally accepted standards of a major US company.

And I'm not just spouting here. I've worked for US companies that have been burned by Indian firms that did what they thought they were supposed to do simply because the US firms made assumptions that they thought the Indian firms would also make.

There's a lot to be said about hiring people that share the same mindset and experience as you, or at least what you're used to dealing with. The one major problem I keep hearing is that Indian firms either produce shoddy or under-featured software, or they refuse to produce anything until the product is spec'ed to the nth degree, resulting in no real savings in either time or money.

This, by the way, is not a slam against Indian programmers. They are, in my experience, very polite, very nice to work with, and have scads of tech skills. The difficulty is, primarily, the cultural difference. The language difference doesn't help, but the business and social cultures are the gating issues.

So for you to say that more is better is naive.

Re:Overhead Absurd

[Bellyflop]

That's some pretty strange math. If you had 20 indian programmers doing a job and 10 leave, how will that job get done? Did you just overhire by 10 people? Or did you expect that the 10 people would do twice as much work?

I should have it so well.

[michael path]

So, for 40% less than what I'm currently making, I could live in a nation that gives a crap about hockey, has a much smaller crime rate, has major domestic beers that don't taste like piss, and a health care system available to all its citizens?

Where can I sign up? Really.

Re:I should have it so well.

[rtaylor]

You missed one.. The cost of living is also around 40% lower in expensive Canadian cities than expensive American cities; so you really do go without much.

Re:I should have it so well.

[Spangston]

There's a difference between "socialIZED" and "socialIST" that you should be made aware of. As far as I know, there's no ISM in our social programs....

In my opinion ...

[furball]

It's aboot time people recognized this. Ootsourcing is better done in Canada. At least you can understand what people are talking aboot.

Can we trust them?

[NinjaFodder]

I'm not sure that we can trust the Canadians yet. I'm still recovering from Brian Adams.

Burn down our whitehouse, then Celine Dion...

[Crasoum]

... You guys have no limit for your evil. Can I move to Canada?

But the flipside...

[MrAndrews]

Before any of you go packing your bags for Canada, just stop and think:
sure, you'll have a job; and sure you'll be working out of your own apartment instead of driving 2.5 hours to a cubicle somewhere; and sure you'll probably earn more on the whole than any of your other Canadian friends...
But really, half your income goes to the government, and what you're left with doesn't go as far, cause an iPod costs six hundred bloody dollars here, and... and... you have to say "bloody" in casual conversation... and "eh", sometimes, too... and...
Please don't come here! I can't take any more competition!

Re:But the flipside...

[Nos.]

half your income goes to the government

This kind of misinformation is annoying. I make about $55,000/year (CDN). About 23% of that goes to taxes. Other deductions (SuperAnnuation (Pension Plan), Uninon Dues, CPP (Federal Pension Plan), and EI (Employment Insurance)) work out to about 12% of my gross pay. So, I take home about 65% of my gross pay.

Now I live in Saskatchewan (Regina to be exact) which is by no means a tax haven compared to the rest of the country. Living expenses are incredibly low. $150,000 will get me a 1600 sqft house. Property tax on that... say about $3500. Our provincial government has a mandate to provide the lowest utility rates (water, power, gas, phone) in the country. Registering and insuring a car? It depends on the car of course, but I pay about $850/year for my '99 Intrepid. However, since I have a positive rating (accident free for several years) I get about 2% knocked off that. Gas is pricey. Its floating between 80 and 90 cents/litre right now. However, I only drive about 20K to work (maybe 10-15 mins). Parking is $70/month. My wife and I can get groceries for a month for under $300, and we aren't just getting KD and dried noodles.

Regina also has a very thriving tech sector as well. The low cost of living has attracted several call centres including Staples and StarTek.

If you are interested in outsourcing here, or moving here, check out http://www.ir.gov.sk.ca/ The Sask Gov Industry and Resource Site.

I'm moving to Vancouver next month

[madprogrammer]

From L.A. But, I'm Canadian and just came down to L.A. to make some American money.

I'm part of what Canada calls the "Brain Drain" where large numbers of highly (yet cheaply) educated Canadians rush to the States after graduating. The U.S. (California in particular) provided an opportunity to make a lot of money. My company stopped hiring Canadians (and actually anyone out-of-state) soon after I started, to cut out relocation costs.

I've been saying that companies should out-source to Canada ever since this out-sourcing thing became a big deal. Now that the tide is turning, I wonder what they will rename the "Brain Drain" to!?

Re:I'm moving to Vancouver next month

[TwistedSquare]

Now that the tide is turning, I wonder what they will rename the "Brain Drain" to!?

Brain Suck?

40% is all relative.

[mdemeny]

I think the cost of living is nearly 40% less as well - and as others have pointed out already, we get a fair bit in return for our tax dollar. With the exception of a few really interesting US cities - I would much prefer to live anywhere in Canada over any US city (and I've been to at least a dozen states for work, so I know what I'm talking about).

As a point of interest, my company tranferred me to London, England for 2 years. Overnight my salary more than doubled, but my costs more than tripled. I've since moved back and despite the large paycut from returning to a Canadian salary, it works out better for me in the end due to cost of living differences.

Mercer human resources has a chartoutlining cost-of-living differences in the world. Ottawa - my current home - is almost exactly 40% cheaper than New York. Canada's most expensive city (Toronto) is only slightly higher than the US's lowest city (Pittsburgh).

Personal experience.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm an american who HAS moved north up to Montreal to program (games for that matter), and cost of living in the city here are less than where I was in NY (Poughkeepsie), and if I were to move just 30 min outside of Montreal, cost of living would drop more than 40% less than where I was in NY, probably in the order of 60-80% less.

For example, a typical, 2500-3000 sq ft house around Poughkeepsie (Hopewell Jct to be specific) went for about 300-800k USD. A friend of mine bought a 2500 sq ft (ranch) house 15 min drive from down town Montreal for 140k CAD, with a pool and a very nice neighbourhood.

140k CAD is aprox 100k USD(at about 70 cents to the canadian dollar). So by this rough (I am sure prices in Hopewell have soared even higher), at worst the price is 66% less, and at best upwards of 88% less than the US counter part in that area.

Is it worth it? Thats for you to decide. I know I have more disposable income, even when converted to USD.

I do have the added benefit of being a dual citizen, but that is a minor issue. As long as you have a degree and a letter from a company stating you have a standing job offer in Canada, it's a matter of going to the border patrol office and they will do a little paper work (from what I have been told, less than a hour) and you are all set.

Canadian Accents? What's that aboot?

[addie]

speak English with nearly American accents

This quip really made my day. Now I know that accents vary over North America, but the idea that the "Canadian" accent is distinctly different from an "American" accent is really laughable.

Compare a New England accent to a Southern accent to a Maritime, to an Ottawa valley, to who knows what other region. Accents vary by much greater degrees within the two countries than they do between them. Or do most Americans feel like Canadians all talk the same, and that is somehow different from all Americans? I'd love to hear opinions on this... Cue South Park quotes now...

Too Bad

[N8F8]

Half of them think we are Evil

Re:Too Bad

[Ubergrendle]

To American Farkers: Please don't take that link seriously. I'm a 3rd generation Torontonian (yes, there is such a thing) and I've never heard of a "Toronto Free Press".

Second, the way these polls happen and the questions asked really bias the results. I will paraphrase what I interpret to be the majority opinion here: "Americans are really cool, and they're our best friends. But their government SUCKS ASS and some of those hardcore NRA members and Right Wing Christians really freak us out."

I think outsourcing is fine

[cavemanf16]

Listen, I understand that being forced to train your outsourced replacement or you get fired anyways is completely unfair and cruel behavior by the big corp's. But outsourcing isn't entirely evil. For one thing, it means that there is *much* cheaper labor out there ready and willing to be the "code monkey's" who can slop together some PeopleSoft, C/C++, and SQL code to keep the big business CRM tool running. And if companies in the US are so willing to look half-way round the world to get such jobs done, it means there's more relevant, interesting work to go around for those in the US.

Not to mention the fact that freeing up millions of dollars the company is currently spending to invest elsewhere can only be good in the long run. Yes, I know your job might be eliminated in the short term, but that doesn't mean you can't get back out there and learn new skills or take on a completely different job. No one ever said that living in America was a free ride. We've all gotta work hard to make our living here. More money being pumped back into our economy due to outsourcing will, IMO, continue to raise stock prices, make the rich richer who will in turn spend their money on more frivolous products, which drives business further ahead. Besides, when the mega-rich have more 'stuff' they need more people to upkeep it, which is a good place for the poor and unemployed to get themselves back on their feet in the short-term so that they aren't wasting their earning potential in the long-term.

well then

[mpost4]

We can really blame canada.

As a Canadian Programmer

[ShieldWolf]

... while Canadian programmers are nearby, speak English with nearly American accents, have a similar culture and legal system, and get paid 40% less than U.S. programmers. Might be time to think about moving North, eh?"

I think it might be time to move South!

80% Savings 40% Savings

[greymond]

Companies do NOT care if you have talk to a guy speaking Spanglish, Engrish, or Hinduish - They only care about saving money and doing things for LESS.

COmpanies used to use child labor util we made laws about it. Companies used to work people round the clock until we made laws about it. From their past track record companies WILL DO whatever they can GET AWAY WITH - until we unite and make a law about it.

SO GET OUT THERE and crack some skulls!

Canadian Sysadmin

[phorm]

I'm more or less a sysadmin in my position (which is to say I generally take care of anything computer'ish here). Current wage is $25.5/h (CAD), with Blue Cross for medical/dental benefits, a pension, 3 weeks paid holidays (this is my year 2), etc

If I moved, I could make a lot more, but I'm also currently living in a small town. So if you wanted to compare:

• Wage: $25.5/h + benefits
• Rent: 2bdrm apt at $415/mo, I've seen a full (nice looking) house for $700/mo
• Gas: Currently around $0.80-$0.90/L
• Nearest larger community: 115km (where I live, no theatre/mall but most of the rest of what you'd need to not go insane.)
• Groceries a bit more expensive sometimes, but we just got a new grocery store so that should add competition
• Electronics: fairly pricey, except for games which are oddly about par
• High speed internet: $25.5-35.5/mo for residential ADSL, $85/mo for business /w fixed-IP (both fairly reliable)
• Oh, and yes the majority of people my age are hicks or married. Ah well, can't win 'em all

If I moved to a larger city, rent could probably be around $600-800+ for about the same accomodations as I have now, gas would be up a bit, car insurance insane... but I'd also be expecting to make a fair bit more so it would probably still put me ahead.

Where do I sign up

[{Hecubus}]

About once a week it seems when there is a story talking about Canada, invariably there are many posts to the effect of

"Looks like I'll be moving up north" or

"Where do I sign up?"

Well, you can Sign up here

Thats the Citizenship and Immigration Canada website, with all the forms and whatnot for admission to the country. Enjoy!

Re:Where do I sign up

[Sharkford]

You needn't really bother going through the immigration processes on the CIC website; as Merkin Citizens you are eligible for the Free Trade work permit. Google for the details (and misc.immigration.canada is good), but basically you:

(a) finangle a job offer from a Canadian company, which of course will be conditional on you getting the permit

(b) show up at the border with the offer letter, your resume showing a couple years' experience, and proof of your education, and

(c) convince the border worker that these docs are legit and, very important, that they are consistent in their content (trying to take a sysadmin job with an English BA will be problematic). Then

(d) start work, find the beer store and buy suitable seasonal clothing, in whatever order suits you.

The hardest part is (a). But keep an eye on workopolis.ca, and be prepared to cover your own travel for interviewing and relocation.

S.

Re:What about piss testing?

[dontspellsogood]

Uh, we don't have to take drug testing, and AFAIK, urine testing is against our Charter of Rights and Freedoms. And I work, in Toronto, for an American company which does drug test in the states.

Canadian-Hungarian notation

[Anonymous Coward]

So, when a Canadian programmer using Hungarian notation declares a char array variable called, say, "Buffer", how's it declared?

sZedBuffer

???

Re:Canadian-Hungarian notation

[ReplicantSD1]

Close, but we would actually say this: sZedBufferEh

"Nearly American accents"?

[968134]

As a Canadian, I think it is hilarious that the article claims that we have "nearly American accents". There is more variety within either country than there are differences between them when it comes to how their residents speak. What exactly is this "American accent" that we so nearly mimic? A southern drawl? A Brooklyn accent? Perhaps something milder from the midwest?

I challenge the average Slashdot reader to grab a life-long resident of Alberta and Montana at random and decide who is who based not on their word choice or beliefs, but strictly their accent.

Re:Canada as the newest 3rd-World Country...

[dontspellsogood]

>At least we can find ourselves on a map! :) You know, I grew up 30 mins. from Detroit, so all of our television stations (at least the ones with interesting kids shows) - and there was no Canadian Sesame Street then either - were American. Whenever the magical tv box showed a map of "my country", it was one of the US, even though I knew I lived in Canada. It was grade 1 or 2 and the teacher pointed to a map of Canada and I said "Thats not Canada! THATS Canada" [pointing to the US]

Health Care Costs

[rumblin'rabbit]

I work in an internatinoal company. We have made a conscious decision to keep our software development in Canada because it's cheaper. Salaries are about the same in Canada, but in Canadian, not U.S., dollars. And health care costs are much less for Canadian companies because most of it is paid for by the government.

The down side, of course, is more tax. And the CBC.

Lack of programmers may be a problem..

[d_jedi]

We Canadian programmers are all moving south to get paid 40% more!

All we have to do is put up with the Patriot Act, DMCA, George Bush, and..

Wait? Why did I want to take that programming job in the States, again?

Re:Because Canada is fucking freezing

[__aaaaxm1522]

Get a clue. Not all of Canada is a frozen wasteland.

I live in BC. In a desert.

Seriously.

Portions of the interior of BC, around the Thompson-Okanagan region are actually considered deserts. We get little precipitation (ie: snow) and in the summer temperatures can hit 40 degrees C or 104 F.

In winter, we don't usually drop below -10 (about 15 F).

Vancouver, a 3 hour drive away, gets almost no snow in the winter (although a lot of rain) and is more temperate in the summer.

It isn't necessarily all it is cracked up to be

[gosand]

a health care system available to all its citizens?

My wife has family all over Canada, and I can tell you that from their experiences, the healthcare system isn't all that great. While everyone has coverage, it can be pretty tough to get in to see a doctor. Things take longer because their system is swamped. And I remember something about how the banking industry isn't that good up there, so you don't get decent interest rates. Or something like that, I can't remember. I just meant to say that it is no "wonderland", they do have their own issues.

But damn, are they polite up there. We went there on our honeymoon, took a 2 day tour on the Rocky Mountaineer. When we were pulling out of the station in Vancouver, there was graffiti sprayed on a nearby overpass. What did it say?
"Welcome to Vancouver".
Cracked my ass UP. Victoria was absolutely beautiful, I would move there in a second if I thought I could find a job.

Re:It isn't necessarily all it is cracked up to be

[muonzoo]

And I remember something about how the banking industry isn't that good up there, so you don't get decent interest rates. Or something like that, I can't remember. I just meant to say that it is no "wonderland", they do have their own issues.

Wow, now that's a concrete and profound statement.

Canada has Chartered Banks. This is a wonderful thing. It means that when you travel, you can find a branch of your own Bank! It also means that there is excellent inter-bank co-operation and the level of service is generaly quite good. It's certainly less risky and less confusion than all the Mom & Pop S&Ls that seem to dot the landscape south of 49.

In fact, they look to be in fine shape.

Re:It isn't necessarily all it is cracked up to be

[iserlohn]

You should not have any problems finding a GP to see you in Canada. In fact, you could probably make an appointment and your GP (yes, you can choose your doctor) will see you the same day if you are in pain, the next for most other aliments.

If you want to see a specialist. Well, that's another story... :)

Re:It isn't necessarily all it is cracked up to be

[nfotxn]

For the sake of accuracy I'll clarify the problems with medicare here. It is not difficult to see a doctor or get emergency treatment in the least. There are waiting times for patients who are not critical at emergency rooms but I don't think that is any different than in the USA.

One of the biggest problems we have here is with medical imaging. The cost of MRI equipement and technicians is absolutely astronomical which makes funding these clinics publically much more difficult than normal clinical staff in a hospital. Imaging is a pre-operative necessity in and this respect the entire system is gummed up at one point. Of course to the ignorant it looks as if the whole system doesn't work. That's not the case at all.

Upon inspection of most public healthcare programs here the major stumbling points usually have nothing to do with the talent of the staff or funding as such but more so to do with economic pressure from the south. Millions of Canadian tax dollars are used to train RN's and MD's who take work south of the border every year. Canadian healthcare workers are a rare breed who get paid peanuts compared to their US counterparts because they believe in equal access for all. The idea of uncomprimised equality for all is a very much a part of our culture in Canada. It is indeed no wonderland however our detractors from south of the border usually don't know all the details.

Re:It isn't necessarily all it is cracked up to be

[metamatic]

While everyone has coverage, it can be pretty tough to get in to see a doctor. Things take longer because their system is swamped.

You mean just like with my HMO, which is one of the top 10 US HMOs?

Please, don't.

[Morgahastu]

No, don't move up north. We have the same problem here as the United States does. Too many programmers not enough jobs. That's why it's so damn cheap.

You'll find it even harder to find a job then we do being a foreigner without a permanent visa.

Re:sorry

[Orick]

But just think, you get all the government you can eat.

It's like a socialist buffet!

And people wonder why they get paid 40% less in Canada and many people up there want to head south for better paying jobs and better medical care....
--
Oreck Reviews

Wow, NYC is a freaking Xanadu!

[Apostata]

"3)Living in NYC has it's own advantages. Here, I can go Tango Dancing every day of the week, see the best museums, never have to drive the death machine we call an automobile, can go out drinking without worrying about how I am getting home, can see world class plays, theater, etc. etc. etc. Living in Canada would be a marked decrease in my Life Style. It might be OK for people that don;t care about this kind of stuff, but not for me."

Wow, what's Tango Dancing? Museums? What the hell are plays?

This NYC place seems pretty darned fancy-looking! I should save up my 40% weaker Canadian dollars, sell my moose lodge, canoe down there, and experience what can only conceivably be a DREAM CITY IN THE **KING CLOUDS, YOU SELF-INFATUATED NY MORON.

You think freaking Tango lessons set NYC apart from the world? If *that's* your basis for judgement, you'd do us all a favour and stay put, friend.

Or to Michigan

[Brian Stretch]

Or to pretty much anywhere in America besides the People's State of California.

I almost headed out to Silicon Valley during the boom, but after considering that state taxes are literally double what they are here in Michigan, the cost of housing is 2+ times as much, traffic is worse, people expect you to work way longer hours, and federal taxes are going to bite down hard on that extra marginal income, I figured: what's the point?

Plus I never did get the hang of Spanish...

Oh yeah, the weather. Well, there are a lot of states that have better weather than Michigan, so there.

Canada for students

[phorm]

I might also point out some of the benefits of doing your schooling in Canada (yes, we do have some good Colleges/Universities, but beware some do suck so scout them first)

• Legal Age: 18-19
• Age of consent:
• Gambling: 19
• Beer: Better, stronger
• Lots of international cross-culturalization: cute [insert X country] girls/guys!
• Less stodgy about various substances
• Anonymous downloads (no RIAA supoena)!

50% tax rates??

[Anonymous Coward]

Tax rates are tiered in Canada. For someone making $50,000 Canadian a year, their yearly tax would be about $12,000--this includes fed + prov + Canada Pension Plan + tax credits.

The approximate tax rates are (fed+prov combined):

Up to 35,000: ~22%
Up to ~70,000: ~31%
Over 70,000: ~38%

But we also receive tax credits, and if you contribute $ to your retirement savings plan you can greatly reduce the amount of tax paid.

Overall I pay about 26% tax on my yearly income. Nowhere near 50%!

Re:50% tax rates??

[caduguid]

When you hear 50% tax rates, they are including all the ways the government taxes us, not just income tax.

"[This calculator includes] all taxes from all levels of government that Canadians pay. This includes: income & sales taxes; liquor, tobacco, amusement & other excise taxes; automobile, fuel, & motor vehicle licence taxes; CPP/QPP and EI contributions, medical & hospital taxes; property taxes; import duties; profit taxes; and natural resource levies"

You can find the Fraser Institute (right-wing thinktank) tax freedom calculator here. Just did mine (for Ontario) and it turned out to be almost exactly 50%.

Re:French-Canadians?

[novakane007]

That's not true at all. The only section of Canada that is dominated by French is Quebec (85%) and they don't even want to be a part of Canada... That's a whole other issue though. In fact most provinces have less than 5% French speaking citizens. Especially out west, we have less than 2% french speaking citizens. Your statement is like me saying that everyone in the US speaks with a spanish accent.
Here's some census in fo for you.
1996 Census info on Language

Re:Standard of living CanadaUS

[clintp]

By almost every major metric, the Canadian standard of living is currently higher than the USA, and has been for a number of years.

That's because here in the US we don't use the metric system. Duh!

Why not outsource IT to Canada...?

[clintp]

Not outsource US IT to Canada? They outsourced hockey to the US decades ago....

I don't aplogize about Celine.

[asoap]

With our military the way it is...

Celine Dion is our weapon of mass destruction!

Heck, if we ever attack a country, she's on the front line singing her heart out. After one of her Monster Ballots, we just walk in with our hockey sticks and Zambonies and clean up the enemies. We don't need fancy things like short range tactical missles, or ugh.. tanks, guns, ammunition.

Actually, on a serious note, I like it that we don't spend anything on military. In the simpson's they used the joke (excuse me if I get this wrong):

Scorpio: "What country do you like the least, Italy or France"

Homer: "France"

Scorpio: "No one ever says Italy"

Then Scorpio blows up France. Well I like it that to the rest of the world Canada = Italy. The U.S. = France.

I can just imagine terrorist meeting... "Guys what country do you like the least? Canada or the US?"

-asoap

You know what?

[Fizzlewhiff]

This whole thing is stupid. Say a New York City or San Francisco company saves money by outsourcing to Canada, a place where a housing isn't $400 a square foot and salaries are not inflated. They could probably get very similar savings if they oursourced to WVa or TN and be sung praises as heros for boosting local American economies. On the same note, west coast and east coast companies spending millions on leases for data centers could save millions by moving to America's heartland. Plus they could just leave the windows open in the colder months and reduce their electric bills for cooling. Ok, the last part is a stretch.

Outsource to the US

[pchasco]

Where I live in Illinois, the cost of living is:

55% less than New York, NY
43% less than San Francisco
21.5% less than San Diego
18.8% less than Los Angeles

And my city is slightly above the national average for cost of living.

Re:80% Savings 40% Savings

[rice_web]

No.... corporations did.

Again, this is a case of the small business getting lumped with Big Business. Just like Bush saying Edwards is against small businesses; well, no, he's not. He's against corporations that break the law.

UN says Canada is a better place to live

[hey]

According to a recent U.N. report Canada is the 4th best place to live, above the USA.

Re:sorry

[Dixie_Flatline]

I'd like to know how you're paying 50% tax.

The maximum tax rate in Canada at the federal level is 29%, and that kicks in when you make more than $113,000. Since the tax rate is progressive, you pay nothing on the first $8000, 16% on the money between $8000 and $35,000, 22% on the money between $35,000 and $70,000, and 26% on the money between $70,000 and $113,000.

The highest tax rate in the country is in Newfoundland/Labrador, and at it's MAXIMUM, you pay a TOTAL (that means including federal tax) of 47.02% on money over $113,000. Remember that the tax rate is progressive. If you make $113,001, you pay 47 cents of tax on that ONE DOLLAR, but everything below that is taxed at a lower rate.

Nowhere in Canada does you full tax approach 50%. You may be paying anywhere from 30% - 40%, depending on how good a job you have.

In Alberta (the lowest tax rate in the country - a flat rate of 10%), your personal exemption is $14,337 and the federal exemption is $8012. You pay 16% federal tax up to $35,000, and a flat 10% provincial tax.

So, we'll do provincial tax first. You only have to pay tax on $20667 because of the exemption. It's 10%, so you pay $2067 provincial tax.

Federally, you would pay tax on 26988. The rate is 16% in this bracket, so that's $4318. That's a grand total of $6385 on $35,000. That works out to a total of about 18% of your gross income.

Please stop saying that we're taxed at 50%. It simply isn't true. I've given you the number, and you can do the math yourself. NOBODY IN CANADA PAYS 50% TAX.

Whether or not there's corruption and waste in the government is another discussion. (Though it is worth noting that while the government pissed our money away, the books were still balanced. We haven't had a deficit budget in years.)

Oh, and here's where I got the tax info from. Check my math yourself. It's possible that I made a mistake, but the conclusion is still true.

http://www.taxtips.ca/tax_rates.htm

Pay Scales in Canada

[Serapth]

To say you would make 40% less is a gross exagoration. From what ive seen, the payscale is pretty much inline to what most of the states is. The amount of money that you take home at the end of the month means squat. Its all about standard of living.

As an example, im in London, Ontario, which has a population of about 350K. Im a fairly high level developer, basically one step below IT manager. I pull in about 60K a year. From my understanding, I could go to New York city and basically double my salary, and have a 10% less tax to pay. Ditto, I could go to Toronto, and make about the same almost double what I make now ( more like 40% more ), but really what does that money buy me.

I am in the process of buying a luxury loft, 1,700 square feet in size, for about 150K. From what I understand, the same would cost me about about 400K in Toronto, and probrably well over 1/2 million in either NY or Cali. After, expenses, taxes and all that crap, im probrably left with about 1,500 a month of disposable income. That includes my mortgage, car payment, getting reamed for taxes ( that part aint a myth :) ).

As to currency differences, to be honest, I dont really see any. When I go visit our Lansing site in Michigan, I pay basically the same as I would in canada when I eat out, get a hotel, order a beer. It used to be we could cross the border and save a ton of cash on things like gas, smokes, groceries, etc... but now, thats no longer true. Actually, I have a friend whos business consists of buying vehicles in Canada, and driving them up to the States for resale. Gives you a hit at how the exchange rates work :)

There are plenty of reasons to chose one country over the other... but wage sure isnt one of them. Cost of living/standard of living is the most important thing... wage is... when comparing one location to another... just a useless number.

Join a union

[KalvinB]

It wasn't too long ago that a number of highly moderated posts made fun of the union stance that it was unfair to let volunteers do the job they were being paid to do. They were objecting to volunteers stealing their livlihood.

Yet any time it comes up that companies are looking to get cheaper labor for the same work, Slashdot cries foul. It's all fun and games until it happens to you. Companies hire fresh college grads for less, too.

What's the other Slashdot mantra...oh yes "adjust or die." Isn't that what we keep telling businesses like MS and the RIAA? Oh, but this affects YOU so we have to make laws banning companies from utilizing an international work force. Like I said, join a union.

We are now in a global market. Companies for a very long time have been looking to take advantage of it. There are very few companies that don't have people working in foreign countries.

If you don't like it, you need to convince your boss that you are worth your pay and some foreign person can't match your price to value ratio.

People who work in tech fields are just simply not as valuable as they were 20 years ago. We've passed the time when people who could work in the field were few and far between.

Ben

Re:Join a union

[timeOday]

What's the other Slashdot mantra...oh yes "adjust or die." Isn't that what we keep telling businesses like MS and the RIAA? Oh, but this affects YOU so we have to make laws banning companies from utilizing an international work force.... Like I said, join a union.

You do appreciate the difference between the death of a person and the "death" of a business?

A government IS a union, set up by the people living somewhere to help themselves live well, not just to enforce some pure ideology, even if it's capitalism. Businesses don't play favorites or have loyalties, they go for the best return on investment, whether hiring employees or buying a copy machine. But if my government feels the same way, why should I be willing to go fight and die for my country? I'm loyal to the government that's loyal to me.

Don't assume that I'm all for protectionist tarrifs etc. based on what I said. In the long run I think that only generally market-based economies are viable. But I believe that the debate over US policy should revolve around what's best for Americans, NOT some ideological belief that capitalism is natural law which we must never be broken, and certainly not by a simplistic Econ 101 explanation of why current events are to be expected given current policy.

Re:80% Savings 40% Savings

[danheskett]

COmpanies used to use child labor util we made laws about it. Companies used to work people round the clock until we made laws about it.
This is not generally true.

The labor laws that we have are designed to prevent outliers cases. Abominiations and whatnot.

For example, by the time the civil war in the United States rolled around, a large number of plantations had started or already completed rolling back slave labour. Why? It is expensive. By the late 1800's, a number of factories in my home state (Maine) had limited the average work day, instituted minimum working age, and improved safety conditions considerably before the trend of unionization took over.

Why?

Because in the end, businesses are all about the bottom line. In the short term, sending unprofitable things and expensive things offshore saves the bottom line. But in the long run it is bad for business: bad for consumers, bad for the image of the company, etc. We are in the early phases of the outsourcing IT cycle. Some companies will go over board, some will do nothing, some will go down the middle. The ones who go too far will be burned, the ones who do nothing will be burned, the ones who choose just right will win.

until we unite and make a law about it
Yeah, that's what we need! Yet another protectionist law!

Somehow I don't think a few more lines of law on top of the 110 million we already have are going to solve all of our problems...

Effective tax rate

[nuggz]

Add in CPP and EI. (Mandatory 'programs' are just more tax).

I don't know about you but I pay over $2k in property tax, 8% PST, 7% GST, fuel taxes, alcohol taxes and a health care levy.

To me this comes up pretty damn close to 50%.

Count all taxes?

[MDMurphy]

I don't know the tax rates in Canada, so I have no quarrel with your figures. But even without knowing the rates I can tell your figures are too low.

Income tax is not the only tax. In Canada, as here in the US, after you're taxed on your income you get taxed again almost every time you spend your money.

Sales Tax
Alcohol Tax
Tobacco Tax
Gasoline Tax

Again I don't know about Canada, but here in the US we can't get a bill in the mail without a sizeable number of taxes and "gov't mandated fees" ( same as tax as far as I'm concerned ). A basic phone bill has a large percentage of separately listed fees that are mandated.

So the figures are all well and good, but leaving out all the fees paid post-tax is a pretty good omission.

Just on the gas tax, if you earned $10.00, paid 18% you'd net $8.20. When gas is $2.00 a gallon you can buy 4 even gallons. In CA the combined State and Federal gas taxes are about $.46 a gallon. For the 4 gallons purchased you'd pay $1.86 in taxes.
So, on this particular $10 you'd pay $3.66 in taxes, 36.6% being a little bit different than the 18% income tax.

Not all taxes are as high as those on gas, alcohol, tobacco and other "luxuries", but any comparison of taxes for a region has to include the taxes on the post-tax income to be accurate

Re:Count all taxes?

[Dixie_Flatline]

You're right. There ARE other taxes to take into consideration. All provinces have a sales tax except Alberta, and there's the federal 7% GST which applies to all goods and services except food.

However, I don't feel these give a good sense of how much people are taxed, since these are sort of 'opt in' taxes. The less you buy, the less you're taxed. The less you drive, the less you're taxed. The only way to avoid income tax is by not working.

Since I don't smoke, drive very little (I commute by bike), don't drink, and tend to not buy too many things, I don't pay as much tax as someone else down the road who likes buying a lot of consumer electronics, drives a Hummer, and goes out every Friday to drink and smoke a lot.

Additionally...

[Anonymous Coward]

While the highest PERSONAL income bracket is between 42-48% combined federal/provincial, it's generally considered A Good Idea(tm) to incorporate and work as a small business once you get past around $80k a year.

Small businesses get taxed at a much lower rate. In Nova Scotia (where I currently reside), the combined provincial/federal tax rate on small business is a mere %18.1 for the first $300k AFTER EXPENSES, and you can expense damn near anything that's biz-related (trips, meals, cars, computers, etc). You can then also take personal funds from the company out up to $25k/year as a tax-free dividend (may be going up soon!).

The upshot is if you incorporate and you have your wife on board as a signing officer, between the two of you you can pull out $50k @ %18.1 total tax, and the rest at a relatively low marginal rate, all while providing yourself with the trappings of money on the company dime through junketeering and expensing. And if your company grows, you can use additional corp funds by issuing yourself a shareholder loan for basically any amount, at any time.

The mantra that Canada is 'business unfriendly due to taxes' is basically just a warcry for those who want even MORE tax breaks in a country where many businesses would already operate with less tax burden than US counterparts. The reality is that I pay at or below the tax rates of many people to my south (particularly california).

If you're in Canada and making more than 70k/year, seriously look into incorporation. Your tax situation will improve dramatically.

Re:Toronto Raptors

[TopShelf]

I hear the hockey is better in Canada than in Indian, too, eh?

Why not the Midwest or South?

[Mr. Ghost]

I know that a company can save ~40% in salary just by moving there operations from either of the coasts to the Midwest or South. I can speak specifically about South-West Ohio where wages are at least 35% lower that the NE or the West. Plus you get the advantage of no language barriers or import/export costs.

Re:80% Savings 40% Savings

[Archibald Buttle]

COmpanies used to use child labor util we made laws about it. Companies used to work people round the clock until we made laws about it. From their past track record companies WILL DO whatever they can GET AWAY WITH - until we unite and make a law about it.

They still do.

This is, after all, why the likes of Nike, Reebok, and Levis have exported their labour. Labour laws that apply only to domestic workers and not the products for sale, coupled with fairly efficient global transportation and communication networks ensures that companies continue to use exploitative labour. The countries where manufacturing labour gets exported to generally has few legal restrictions on working conditions.

You can probably find something about this on Naomi Klein's nologo.org web site.

We're full up! Please go away!

[MagikSlinger]

Nope, nope. We're all full up here in Canada. Yes, please go away.

You won't like it here. It's cold, yeah.... It's 25 C here in Vancouver. Brrrr.

Yes, that's right. Our healthcare system sucks. That's right. Please go away. *cough*, *cough*. Just ignore the international reports saying we has slightly better life expectancies.

Try Mexico or, maybe, India...?

Lots of good Canadian companies

[TheSync]

Here are three Canadian tech companies that produce products I use at work everyday: Miranda, International Datacasting, Broadview Software. Nice to have NAFTA and not have to pay tarrifs!

MSN pays C$9/hr in Canada

[westendgirl]

My sister-in-law works for a company that contracts to MSN and MCI. The average hourly wage is $9 (CDN). She lives in a small town in Canada, but $9 an hour is still hard to live on. Her employer was recently quoted in the paper as saying that they view these jobs as secondary incomes and that people should therefore be happy to be making any extra money, or, in many cases, to have their first Canadian job (if they are a foreign-trained engineer, for example). In other words, the employer feels that white men have "real" jobs and that these C$9 an hour jobs bring luxury to the lives of women and immigrants. Ouch. This so-called "secondary income" employer is the main employer in several small towns in Canada. The jobs aren't secondary -- they're the only game in town.

Our company already "off-shores" to Canada

[peter303]

We do most of our cutting-edge R&D in the US and send our mature products to our Calgary division for late-stage releases and support. Its about 30% cheaper.

Re:French-Canadians?

[ghislain_leblanc]

You talk of speaking french as some sort of disease...

It's not the plague you know; as a french speaking IT worker I can say that most of us speak at least enough english to be functionnal in the workplace. As for non-IT workers in Quebec it's another story. The thing is, english is basicaly a necesity in computers since most litterature and jargon associated with CS is english. We do have some lousy translations for things like E-Mail (Courriel), Software (Logiciel), Freeware (Gratuitciel) but they never really got momentum as far as common use goes.

Re:Tax Freedom Day ....

[MagikSlinger]

From the site's FAQ:

The Personal Tax Freedom Day calculator, like Tax Freedom Day, includes all taxes from all levels of government that Canadians pay. This includes: income & sales taxes; liquor, tobacco, amusement & other excise taxes; automobile, fuel, & motor vehicle licence taxes; CPP/QPP and EI contributions, medical & hospital taxes; property taxes; import duties; profit taxes; and natural resource levies.

In short, they're throwing in things that none of us consider to be taxes on income. They're saying "we" pay for corporate taxes and mining and petro royalties.

If we did this to the U.S., it would work out the same because the U.S. also has price controls on tabacco, sugar, corn and a host of other foods. Not to mention the county and state taxes on the phone bill, etc. Don't buy the propoganda.

Re:No military in Canada

[Serapth]

My god, what a post... Your right... its a slow friday and your trying to stir the shit! :)Oh well, i'll bite

Your right, Canada had a signifigant contirbution to WWII ( and I ), and in fact had the second largest Navy at the end of the second world war ( Mostly because of the shit kicking that Japan and Germany took... ). However, entering the war, that was not the case. Canada is a country that rallies at the time of war ( real wars, not political invasions... ).

Now, the biggest irony is the reason why Canada is not a military power these days... The US! Do a search on a company called AVRO. The created the CF-100, then the CF-105(Arrow). The AVRO arrow was basically decades ahead of its time ( actually, it was heavily ripped off to create the F15 ... so think F15 tech in the late 50's ). Why did this amazing aircraft never come to see day, beyond test flights??? Well, basically it boiled down to political threats from "Canada's friends to the North". It came down to America dictated to Canada, scrap the Arrow and adopt the Bowmark (sp?) missle system, or the US would start doing missle tests over Canadian airspace.

Now the real reason? Basically it boils down to one of two reasons. THe first one is a no brainer... War is a major industry for the US. Had Canada had the best jet fighter/intercepter on the market, how well would sales of the StarFighter, F4 Phantom, etc have gone? Second reason, basically boils down to the U2 spy plane. That plane was the backbone of US intelligence, however its only defence was the alltitude it flew at, and altitude the Arrow could easily fly at. Ironically, the U2 didnt prove to be that invulnerable in the end did it? I believe in the end, Gary Powers was shot down by an AA missle launch from a Mig25.

So, long story short, Canada was on route to becoming a major military power, at least industrially. One of the biggest reason that Canada isnt these days, is because America basically dictated ( weilding a big stick ), come under our protection, OR ELSE!

Finally... the world isnt really that dangerous of a place with two exceptions. 1) Nukes. 2) The US. With the end of the Cold War, the US is the only country maintaining a large and agressive force, with the possible exception of China. TO put things simply, I think the world was much safer before the US invaded Iraq, then it is now.

However, thats the nice thing about Canada... should the US join "the dark side", watch how fast the "free world" unites against you, should you invade ( and not simply annex, big difference ). Also, dont kid yourself... Canada does not have nuclear weapons... but they are pioneers in the field. I imagine it would take a matter of minutes to create a weapon. The amount of weapons grade material in Canada if you were a parnoid, and Canada not a peaceful country, would probrably keep you up at night. Canada is a peaceful country by choice, not necesity. Dont get me wrong, should a landwar happen, Canada would get clobered... a budget of 100x to 1, and a population of 10x to 1 just cant be overcomed. However, if there is another WW, its going to be nuke based... population size and military budgets mean jack-shit in those situations.

Todays conflicts are going to be resolved with terror, because frankly, the US is the only country heavily investing in the military. However, the nicest defence against terrorism, is not to be a prick. Thats a defence that Canada has mastered... the US still has a hell of alot to learn. Im not even gonna mention isreal here... they are going to be targeted by terrorists for a very very long time.

Re:sorry

[Citizen of Earth]

I'd like to know how you're paying 50% tax.

I live in Ottawa, make CA$82K and paid a total of 19.7% in income tax for 2003. I took advantage of RRSP contributions. This is also short of the 50% income tax rate that Americans like to comfort themselves by saying.

We do pay more taxes overall, but we get more for them. The total Canadian tax burdon as a percentage of GDP is 35%. The American tax burdon is 28%. We get universal health coverage for 5% of the burdon; Americans stuff the coffers of private insurance companies. The 2% remaining is probably lost in economies of scale and snow removal. Regionally, Californians and New Yorkers probably pay more in taxes than I do.

You don't lose 40%

[Easy2RememberNick]

You may lose 40% compared to US dollars but you don't lose anything when comparing quality of life.

You gain free universal health care, safer streets, lots of water, better beer and you get to live in the homeland of the most famous TV and music stars ;)

Re:Toronto Raptors

[maxpublic]

Okay, let's qualify it: Canada is vastly superior to the shit-hole known as "India". Is that clear enough for you?

Max

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