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Macaque Monkey Goes Totally Bipedal

Freshly Exhumed writes "Add another bonus point for the Darwinians/evolutionists. A macaque at the Safari Park Zoo in Ramat Gan, Israel has recovered from a near-fatal illness in an unusual way: she has switched exclusively to walking on her hind legs. Given theories of human history that stress the effect of disease on events and changes, as in William H. McNeill's Plagues and Peoples, what if an illness was the cause of the shift to bipedal motion by our evolutionary ancestors, and rote imitation by offspring or another set of circumstances locked it in? No matter, this could be a fascinating study of the macaque's altered brain functions."

74 of 860 comments (clear)

  1. One thing is for sure... by Surazal · · Score: 5, Funny

    Judging from some of the people I've met, bipedalism does not imply higher brain functions are present in the individual.

    --
    --- Journals are boring; Go to my web page instead
    1. Re:One thing is for sure... by Pharmboy · · Score: 4, Funny

      According the article:

      A zoo veterinarian says he's not sure why she has altered her behaviour, speculating that the illness could have caused brain damage.

      So, we are similar to monkeys, but mainly the brain damaged ones? ;)

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    2. Re:One thing is for sure... by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 5, Interesting
      The adaptation that allows our skull to contain our nice big brain is actually a mutation that keeps our skull in the same shape as an infant ape's. (Apes have a round skull at birth, but the forehead flattens out during maturity.)

      So not only are we brain damaged monkeys. We are immature brain-damaged monkeys.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    3. Re:One thing is for sure... by Patrik_AKA_RedX · · Score: 2, Insightful
      We are immature brain-damaged monkeys.
      That does explain a lot about the world. Seriously, would a world of civilised people spend more money on killing machines than medical research?
  2. A Theory: Gravity assist for weakend stomach by mdrejhon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Another possible theory is that a weakened stomach system might depend more on gravity than before. The macque's possibly-weakend stomach system may now have more discomfort when walking on all fours, forcing the macque to walk upright to avoid discomfort.

    This theory may not be valid, but this could be worth investigating?

    1. Re:A Theory: Gravity assist for weakend stomach by gphinch · · Score: 2, Funny

      Is that anything like the weekend stomach I get? It seems like every Saturday morning I have stomach discomfort and a headache.

      --
      in bed.
    2. Re:A Theory: Gravity assist for weakend stomach by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      probably 'cause you walked on all four the previous night!

    3. Re:A Theory: Gravity assist for weakend stomach by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Could be. Worth looking into.

      But I'd put my money on weakening of the arms, whether through loss of control or coordination through nerve damage or some other flu side-effect, making quadrapedal motion difficult.

      For a four-legger like a dog this would be crippling. (Dogs can't do two-legs for long due to blood pressure issues.) But for a monkey or ape with both four and two legged gaits, it's just an annoyance: Just drop the one that doesn't work so well any more and you're hardly bothered. (Like a kid with a knee injury no longer skipping.)

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    4. Re:A Theory: Gravity assist for weakend stomach by nFriedly · · Score: 2, Funny

      man, i feel sorry for that dog
      (ever heard the saying 'screwed the pooch' - clancy likes to use it)

    5. Re:A Theory: Gravity assist for weakend stomach by LMariachi · · Score: 2, Informative

      You might be interested to see this. I don't know how long it can walk at a time, but the blood pressure difference would seem to be insignificant. I've heard there are snakes that will die if you hold them vertically, though.

    6. Re:A Theory: Gravity assist for weakend stomach by james_in_denver · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Walking upright also gives a substantial increase in line-of-sight. Thus allowing upright primates to observe potential predators long before their quadrapedal buddies.

  3. Quick! by tool462 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Get this monkey a typewriter! I'm in the mood for some new Shakespeare.

  4. NOOO!!!! by iamdrscience · · Score: 3, Funny

    Oh hells no. We need to stop this race of super-human monkeys at the source! If we wait much longer it'll be too late.

    1. Re:NOOO!!!! by Smidge204 · · Score: 5, Funny

      We need to stop this race of super-human monkeys at the source!

      The White House?

      Oh wait, super-human monkeys... nevermind!
      =Smidge=

    2. Re:NOOO!!!! by Wannabe+Code+Monkey · · Score: 4, Funny

      I for one welcome our new simian overlords. (Score:1, Funny)

      I, for one, welcome our new Monkey Overlords. (Score:0)

      I for one welcome our new super-monkey overlords... (Score:-1)


      Lesson? People like simians, don't like monkeys as much, really hate super-monkeys

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  5. Pictures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    There are some pictures of the animal in question here.

  6. Now... by Pantero+Blanco · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...what remains to be seen, is if the macaque spreads the knowledge of how to walk on two legs permanently by teaching its young or other apes. If it doesn't, then the incident will be nothing more than a curiosity. If it does...we may have seen a major evolutionary breakthrough in a species.

  7. Hallelujah! by theraccoon · · Score: 2, Funny

    Praise the Good Lord!! I'll tell you how that monkey was healed, and it was none of your voodoo which craft medicine! The Good Lord saw fit to grant that monkey a second chance, and He blessed that monkey with a miraculous gift! I prayed harder for that monkey than anything else in my good Christian life, and I prayed, and I prayed to the Good Lord that He would see fit to grant that little monkey the ability to overcome the darkness and the flu, and Praise the Almighty Lord Jesus Christ, He has come through for us and that little monkey! Praise the Lord, Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!

    1. Re:Hallelujah! by Atmchicago · · Score: 2, Insightful

      grow up!

      Grow up? What's so childish about observing how different animals adapt to their environment, and showing that walking upright wasn't such a big change from walking on all fours?

      this sort of thing happens all the time without it leading to evolutionary leaps

      The scientists aren't saying "look! a new species! evolution! hurray!" They're just saying that in the right circumstances this could lead to a pack/tribe/family/whatever of monkeys walking upright. The're also saying that macaques have the physical ability of walking upright, and do so if they really have to.

      It so happens to be that always walking upright is one of the distinct qualities of being "human." It's refreshing to see our humble beginnings. Your dislike of science seems misplaced.

      --

      You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it dissolve.

    2. Re:Hallelujah! by Laser+Lou · · Score: 2, Interesting
      While it may give the evolutionists some "ammo" I just sit back and let them have their fun for now


      Evolution doesn't need "ammo." Enough evidence was gathered for it over 100 years ago. It's like physics; you understand it, or you don't.

      --
      No data, no cry
    3. Re: Hallelujah! by Black+Parrot · · Score: 4, Insightful


      > > The curious thing is why (s)he made everything look like the whole shebang was 13,000,000,000 years old.

      > I wonder about this myself. If the creationists are right that means the Creator is at least a malicious trickster, or something more evil. Why would he create the Universe as a charade? Does he/she/it want to puzzle us, to play tricks on us?

      Yeah, it's funny (in a sad sort of way) to see creationists suggesting that God faked the universe to fool scientists, and never pausing to consider that such a God might also fake scripture to fool creationists.

      If things aren't as they seem, scientists aren't the only ones who can't trust the ground they're standing on.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  8. We need him! by Surazal · · Score: 4, Funny

    Where's Charlton Heston when you need him?

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    --- Journals are boring; Go to my web page instead
  9. Re:Disease damages motor functions.. by Hamstaus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    walking upright is actually a defect in regards to survival, since she'd be easier to spot far away by more advanced predators...

    Oh please. That is ridiculous, and you should be ashamed of your own brain for even posting that. You might note that the monkey is now taller, and can therefore spot more advanced predators when they are farther away, giving the monkey more time to escape.

    --
    I moderate "-1, Fool"
  10. Polo a cause for upright posture also. by DumbSwede · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I once saw a special on some apes, I can't remember if it was chimpanzees or gorillas, but they were getting polo from human vectors. One ape had a totally paralyzed arm, and had to walk upright the rest of its life. The documentary aired 5-10 years ago, but I remember thinking at the time that there might be a connection to upright walking in the evolution of humans. I'm sure it must have occurred to the primate observers also, though they didn't mention it in the documentary.

    Maybe some other /.er can come up with the name of the documentary. This can't be a new insight.

  11. Question to the anthropologist nerds... by iamdrscience · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Has anyone done a study on whether human bipedalism is due to the behavior learned from surrounding people or if there are practical reasons for why we hardly ever walk on all fours? That is, do we just walk on two legs most of the time because everybody else does?

    1. Re:Question to the anthropologist nerds... by Pantero+Blanco · · Score: 3, Informative

      According to the psychology books I've read, it's automatic. At a certain age, children begin to walk on two legs, unless they are impaired (unlike talking, which must be taught at a certain stage of growth). A parent can try to "help" a child learn to walk, but they won't do it until the instinct kicks in.

    2. Re:Question to the anthropologist nerds... by Yaztromo · · Score: 4, Informative
      Has anyone done a study on whether human bipedalism is due to the behavior learned from surrounding people or if there are practical reasons for why we hardly ever walk on all fours?

      If you take a look at how modern human bodies are constructed, the fact that we're bipedial by nature (as opposed to nurture) is pretty obvious.

      Quadripeds don't walk on their rear knees, but on either their feet or their toes. Humans can't do this due to the differences in proportion between our arms and legs. Sure we can crawl on all fours -- but that's quite a bit different from being a real quadriped.

      Mind you, at one point in time during human evolution things were probably different -- there would have had to have been an intermediate stage. The fossil record would appear to back this up, as there are hominids which have shorter legs and longer arms.

      Yaz.

    3. Re:Question to the anthropologist nerds... by Baby+Duck · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Piers Anthony's Geodessey Series presents fictional accounts of a few different theories as to how bipedalism came about.

      Those books have an extensive bibliography of anthropolgical works, so if you read a particular story that catches your eye, you have an excellent jumping point from which you can find out what he's basing it on.

      I'm trying to remember off the top of my head, so I'm bound not to get all of this right:

      1) In order to birth larger-head primates, the pelvic bones had to shift to bipedalism

      2) In dryer times, bipedalism allowed greater roaming ranges, in order to find more food

      3) When roaming so much out in the open with little protection from the sun, you absorb a lot less sunlight when upright since not as much surface area is perpendicular to the sun's rays

      4) Our entire respiratory system is geared towards cooling off our heads, since our large brains produce so much heat. Changes to the lungs and chest cavity favored bipedalism.

      These are just theories. I know in recent years, there has been a lot of evidence to show that areas thought to have been dry savannahs were actually quite lush in the time periods man was thought to have gone bipedal. Kinda throws a monkeywrench into it.

      But bipedalism could have come about in a relatively small area, geographically secluded from the rest. When the primates finally did have the capacity to leave that area, they were able to quickly dominate the other humanoids across entire continents, trees or no trees.

      --

      "Love heals scars love left." -- Henry Rollins

    4. Re:Question to the anthropologist nerds... by superyooser · · Score: 4, Interesting
      I hadn't looked at that site in a while. I just did and found this example about Saturday Mthiyane, a child in South Africa who lived with monkeys:
      Saturday's feral characteristics
      Saturday exhibited characteristics in common with many other feral children. "He was very violent during his first days here. He used to break things in the kitchen, get in and out through windows. He didn't play with other kids and instead he used to beat them. He liked uncooked red meat", said Ethel Mthiyane. "He didn't like blankets. He wanted to sleep naked and he hated clothing."

      Ten years later
      Saturday is one of the few modern children to have been followed up. When the Johannesburg Mail and Guardian visited the school ten years later, they found that Saturday was still unable to speak. He had been taught to walk, but was still refusing to eat cooked food, preferring raw vegetables instead; bananas remained his favourite fruit.

  12. Brain damage also enabled... by Dracos · · Score: 5, Funny

    The monkey to correctly enunciate a single English word, and in the company of fellow monkeys slips into fits of screaming:

    Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers!
  13. Re:A question for evolutionists by edremy · · Score: 4, Informative
    Intelligence always adaptive? Nope. Any organism is a trade off between a huge variety of factors- which you spend your energy budget on depends on your overall survival strategy. A perfectly good evolutionary strategy is to simply breed like crazy and not worry much about survival of any one offspring- why bother with brains when your gonads work well?

    You only need to be smart enough to survive until you can breed. Look around among your fellow humans- it don't take much to reach that point.

    --
    "Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
  14. Re:dogs too by jwbing · · Score: 2

    Sure, this dog walks on its hind legs. It still doesn't really impress me all that much. I've been doing the very same thing for about 22 years.

    Now, if the dog was on Letterman's stupid pet tricks, then I would be impressed.

  15. Much like us is certain situations... by howman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There is also the possibility that walking with the use of its arms causes discomfort. Pain and discomfort is a strong convincer of learned behaviour.
    For example, if you are unfortunate enough to break a bone, how long after the cast comes off do you still tentatively utilise that body part? If your hip gets broken, a limp occurs and only through extensive retraining through physotherapy is the muscles and learned knee jerk reaction to avoid pain unlearned.
    Having a physiotherapist in the immediate family and spending lots of time around recovering individuals, I have noted that people who refuse to perform their physio properly inevitably take longer to heal and revert back to normal physical movement.
    The fact that this animal refuses to, can not, or will not revert back to normal movement may just be an indication of its non-complete healing. I believe time will tell on this one.

    --
    flinging poop since 1969
  16. Re:Disease damages motor functions.. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It depends on how well she develops the ability. Walking upright makes you easier to catch, running upright makes you much harder to.

    For a monkey or ape, which doesn't have the adaptations for it, running up right is slower than on all fours. (That's why they switch back to all four when in a hurry.)

    The advantage of the two-legged walk for people is that it is lower-energy, not that it's faster. This lets us jog for a long time, at speeds that quickly overheat and exhaust prey animals until they drop from heat prostration.

    People can outrun some horses in a very short sprint (though I wouldn't bet on it for quarterhorses). And they can jog down darn near anything. But in the middle distances other animals do better.

    It may have been a defect when the first human did it, but it survived and we ended up all the better for it.

    In particular it gave us a new hunting mode (like wolf packs but better) that, in combination with freeing the hands for weapon use, put us on top of the food chain and gave us the safety and leisure to develop agriculture and technology.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  17. People only use 10% of their brains by qwasty · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The notion that humans only use 10% of their brains is completely wrong. It stemmed from the book "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie, that was published in 1936. On page 206 Carnegie quotes Professor William James, a psychologist at Harvard, as saying

    "Compared with what we ought to be, we are only half awake. We are making use of only a small part of our physical and mental resources. Stating the thing broadly, the human individual thus lives far within his limits. He possesses powers of various sorts which he habitually fails to use."

    And furthermore, on page 11 of the foreward, Lowell Thomas misquotes Professor James where he says

    "Professor William James of Harvard used to say that the average man develops only 10 percent of his latent mental ability."

    So, maybe Professor James did actually say something like that, but he said it just as a motivator for people, not because it had any basis in scientific research. The only reason "everyone knows" that people only use 10% of their brains is because of Dale Carnegie's wildly popular book, which incidentally, was marketed to sales people, who are notoriously science-illiterate.

    To put it into perspective, would you be as intelligent as you are now if you lost 90% of your brain? It's sad that American school teachers sometimes teach this crap in their classrooms, when it's only raison d'etre is a misquote in a 1930's book for salesmen.

  18. Obligatory post... by hajihill · · Score: 4, Funny

    I, for one, welcome our new Macaque overlords.

    Sorry.....

    --
    Of blankness, I know nothing.
  19. Re:Disease damages motor functions.. by Kenshin · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...and we can pee standing up too!

    --

    Does it make you happy you're so strange?

  20. Re:Score another one for creationists by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The problem is that creationism is pseudo-science, often by people trying to "prove" their religion, or trying to find a way to squeak in religion edgewise as a subject legitimately teachable in public schools.

    For one, one does not read a book intended for spiritual enlightenment as a history book. That is the using-a-saw-as-a-hammer approach, such that its usefulness is somewhat limited because that is outside the scope of the texts. Have you ever tried to read about the complete history of Nevada in a book about the WW II nuclear programs? It majorly falls short.

    Many of the same people read far too literally into such texts, particularly concerning the creation accounts, of which there are at least two accounts in the Hebrew Torah. Both are conflicting accounts, if you take them literally. If one says one is literal, the other non-literal, then you have an argument on which one is literal.

    The people that try to claim that the earth is young and claim that is provable now, either are lying, are ignorant or couldn't pass a decent set of college science and math classes such as calculus, statistics, geology and second-year chemistry, because they pass off "facts" that seem to contradict some basic experiments I've done. Some try to make up some BS theories on radiation, but there are greater holes in those theories than they claim are in old-earth and evolution theories.

    But this monkey likely tells us nothing about either theory.

  21. Bipedal posture in a monkey is a normal behavior. by wherrera · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Seen from the perspective of one with postdoc level training in related matters, this is silly. It is wrong as support for natural selection in the origin of species among primates for two reasons:

    1) In dogs, a broken leg makes them walk on three legs. This is compensation, not evolution toward bipedal posture. The broken-legged puppy is LESS likely to survive and reproduce (its weaker bones mayhap?).

    In monkeys, a broken or weak arm (eg. from illness) makes them prefer to walk on two legs, but again the arm problem makes them LESS likely to survive. And monkeys in general already know how to walk on two legs OR on all fours--they do not need a group behavioral culture to teach them to do so. (Humans don't need to be taught to crawl by someone who cannot walk because of a weak leg, for example.)

    2) More importantly, this smacks of Lamark. Arm weakness after enterovirus polimyelitis may cause a monkey that orginally could walk on EITHER all fours (preferred) OR bipedally to change to PREFER bipedal walking. Lamark said giraffes had long necks from straining their necks upward--this is the concept of learned or acquired characteristics passed to offspring. This is not a DNA based theory! And, it was not Dawin's theory!

    Bad evolutionist--know thy Darwin! ;-)

  22. This is a LOSS for Darwin by puppetluva · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Instead of a win for Darwin, this would actually be a win for Lamarck (whom Darwin discredited). If the acquired behavior seen in these monkeys is passed on to their offspring, it would prove Lamarck's "Theory of Aquired Characteristics".

    Here's a reference:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarck

    1. Re:This is a LOSS for Darwin by michaelggreer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Lamarck was wrong in terms of biological evolution, but cultural evolution is quite Lamarckian: we do indeed pass on learned traits to our offspring. This particular example seems specious, even pointless, however. There is no evidence of anything being passed on at all. If there is, it would point to culture in the monkeys, not Lamarckian evolution.

  23. Re:Score another one for creationists by Hungus · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Your opinion no matter how ignorant is still your opinion, and therefore has value. Also, since you actually posted using your account rather than hiding behind AC status more the kudos to you.
    The problem is that creationism is pseudo-science
    The people that try to claim that the earth is young and claim that is provable now, either are lying, are ignorant or couldn't pass a decent set of college science and math classes such as calculus, statistics, geology and second-year chemistry,
    Creation based science is still science just like evolution based science is still science. I for one would argue a young earth and creation and most likely I have a far greater science background than you (based on statistics not you personally, you could hold 17 post grad degrees for all I know) In my own case I have done grad work in both physics and chemistry (specifically ceramics and materials sciences with specific research in to the laminar flow of water at high pressures (30,000+ PSI typically 60 - 100k PSI though) I have S Levels in both Physics and Chemistry (for those of you who know what that means) A levels in Biology and Mathematics (both Pure and Applied) and so on and so forth (all this rambling just means that 1) I am most definitely able to pass decent classes in uni and am in fact qualified to teach many of them also) I certainly could point out as many fallacies/issues with old earth studies and evolution as you could conceive of with creationism.
    For one, one does not read a book intended for spiritual enlightenment as a history book
    As for you seeming implication that the Bible (not stated merely implied) is a book for spiritual enlightenment, I am sorry you feel that way you could of course try actually doing a critical read of it, and if you so wanted to I would gladly go through things verse by verse (I am not an expert but I am certainly willing to discuss it)
    there are at least two accounts in the Hebrew Torah. Both are conflicting accounts, if you take them literally.
    As for your comments about the creation accounts I see no disparity between them there is a certain set of granularity that has to be taken into account but that is the case whenever you have 2 accounts of the same event written for different purposes.
    --
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  24. Two accounts of creation by tepples · · Score: 3, Insightful

    the creation accounts, of which there are at least two accounts in the Hebrew Torah.

    Much of what appears to conflict in English is an artifact of translation. Given this explanation of how the two accounts in the opening chapters of Genesis complement each other, with reference to the original Hebrew, what do you still find in conflict?

  25. Re:Disease damages motor functions.. by Kunta+Kinte · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The advantage of the two-legged walk for people is that it is lower-energy, not that it's faster.

    Care to back that up?

    Last time I heard there was no consensus amongst investigators on how we ended up walking upright entirely.

    Here's one theory.

    Another I've heard is that since our ancestors spent a lot of time on the savanahs, standing upright was a great benefit, eg. priarie dogs lookouts. We went one better cause we could see predators for long distances without having to stop and stand, whilst making our way long distances. Definately a great benefit. Think about trying to make your way across a grassland with sparse trees, and large predators lurking for instance.

    Truth is, there are many probable theories.

    Also, that "less energy" argument sounds weak to me. Transportion is a very important function for all animals, and also energy efficiency right up there too. You mean to say that no other mammal as caught on to this bipedal thing as yet? From the fastest cheetahs to the slowest sloths?

    --
    Based on upvotes, Ageism is the only "-ism" Slashdotters care about and think isn't SJW
  26. Re:Bigger brains... by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 4, Informative
    Not true.

    The part of the brain resposible for balance is the Cerebellum. It really hasn't changed much since we left the trees. Various structural changes in our skull allowed the cerebrum (frontal lobe) of the brain to grow larger.

    Neanderthals and many species of proto-humans had flat foreheads, but walked upright.

    --
    "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
    --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
  27. grasping at Invisible straws by netsavior · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Amazing to what dishonest lengths EVERYONE will go to promote their religion. At least evolutionists dont ask me for money.

  28. Disabled parents passing on their traits? Doubtful by xigxag · · Score: 2, Insightful

    what if an illness was the cause of the shift to bipedal motion by our evolutionary ancestors

    That seems questionable -- sounds an awful lot like Lamarckism to me.

    --
    There are two kinds of people: 1) those who start arrays with one and 1) those who start them with zero.
  29. It has to do with the larger, heavier brain. by Theovon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    One of the things that bipedalism gave us was the ability to carry a larger brain. Rather than having to hold the head up, we just sortof balance it on the top of the spine.

    Try crawling around for a while on all fours. Besides getting sore knees, you'll also get a sore neck from holding your head up. (Although the fact that our spine connects to the skull in a different place from that of quadrupeds may exacerbate the problem.)

    But don't let this confuse you. Having a larger brain did not cause us to go bipedal just so we could hold our heads up. Evolution doesn't work that way (with quadrupeds, brains larger than what gives an immediate advantage are selected against). Instead, our ancestors developed bipedalism because it was a hunting advantage... you can see farther and not occupy your hands with the act of moving (as someone else in this forum already mentioned). But then that allowed us to develop larger brains (and thicker skulls *g*) which kinda got us cornered this way (that is, our larger brains are now a selection criterion against NOT being bipedal).

    (BTW, the thicker skulls thing is serious, though, when you consider Neandertals.)

    So, to answer your question, bipedalism is not a learned thing in modern humans. We evolved to be this way, we don't function well if we don't walk upright, and children pretty much figure it out on their own (although watching others may help a little).

    Also, besides bipedalism, another way to be able to develop a larger brain is to be aquatic. (Floating is good.) Thus, we have dolphins.

    1. Re:It has to do with the larger, heavier brain. by tehdaemon · · Score: 2, Interesting
      " and children pretty much figure it out on their own"

      I think it is instinctive, not learned. I have been watching my nieces. One loved walking (with help, you had to hold her hands) before she ever learned to crawl. Her balance was almost good enough to walk on her own at that point. (she had learned though that 'I can walk if they hold my hands' and wouldn't try). Another is now about 6 months. Stand her on her feet and provide balance and she is content to stand, and she provids all the support. (I did this less than a week ago) She can't quite sit up on her own yet though.

      I think crawling, and rolling are learned behaviors, and walking, and the upright position are instinctive. Or, as you said it "bipedalism is not a learned thing in modern humans." I think you meant 'children learn that to function well they need to be upright, (due to their physical form) and so they learn to walk.' I think that they learn to walk because being upright is instinctively the right position to be in.

      --
      Laws are horrible moral guides, moral guides make even worse laws.
    2. Re:It has to do with the larger, heavier brain. by maxpublic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Instead, our ancestors developed bipedalism because it was a hunting advantage...

      Actually, that's probably not true. Bipedalism most likely developed to a) be able to see oncoming predators easier, and b) to free the hands so that food could be carried from place to place (a *huge* advantage in survival, if you can take food with you while on the move, especially if the area you're moving through is a poor harvest ground).

      While it's quaint and somewhat heroic to believe our ancestors were 'mighty hunters', in point of fact they pretty much sucked at it. Prior to Cro-Magnon it's estimated that our ancestors gained about 95% of their calories through fruits and vegetables, supplemented mostly by insects. After Cro-Magnon and continuing right up to the Agricultural Revolution for Homo Sapiens this percentage was stable at around 80%-85%, depending on where you lived.

      Humans weren't terribly efficient hunters. They were very good gatherers, but as hunters they were the least effective predator on Earth, until recently.

      There is one hominid off-shoot that was *very* good at hunting: Neanderthal. In opposition to human beings and others of our direct line, most Neanderthal calories came from meat, approximately 85% in fact. They did very little gathering because they were consummate hunters and didn't need to do much to supplement their diet. Neanderthals were the only hominid that could be considered 'good' hunters; the rest, including us, were just plain lousy at it most of the time.

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
    3. Re:It has to do with the larger, heavier brain. by DunbarTheInept · · Score: 2, Interesting


      because it was a hunting advantage..

      Most primates are omnivores that get most sustenance from plants, and only supplement it with meat from time to time, and that meat is typically just bugs. So I have a hard time believing that hunting was important to an unintelligent ancestor (now, once intelligence starts creeping in, it gets different, as that means diet can be deliberately changed at will).

      But there are several other possible advantages to being bipedal:

      - The ability to see far was probably more of a defensive than an offensive thing. A predator using the grass as cover has a harder time sneaking up on the creature who can see from a taller vantage point down into the grass.

      - Some primates other than humans do use some primitive tools. It could be that simple tool-use (i.e. a stick) predates (and caused) intelligence, and that the fact that a stick is easier to wield when you don't need your hands to walk might have been the trigger for bipedalism.

      - Climbing trees is easier when you can stand on your hind legs and hold your balance while reaching for the next branches. The irony if this was the reason for bipedalism, is that bipedalism is what made us not need to bother with all the tree climbing in the first place.

      --

      Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.

  30. Glad I don't have to Google "Erect Monkey" at work by wernst · · Score: 2, Funny

    Good thing /. put the link to the story here. I didn't really want the spies at IS at work to see me searching for the terms "Erect Monkey" to get the details...

  31. Re:Disease damages motor functions.. by Cyberllama · · Score: 5, Interesting

    True it makes you much slower, but it in terms of energy effeciency it's a no brainer. A famous anthropologist who's name escapes me once did a demonstration to make this point. He started chasing after a gazelle and of course was QUICKLY outpaced, but he continue to jog after it slow and steady. Everytime he'd close the gap, the gazelle woould bolt.

    After a little while though, the gazelle was totally exhausted. On 4 legs it was much faster, but it was burning quite a bit more energy to escape. Eventaully he caught up to the gazalle and was able to basically do wahtever he wanted to it. The gazalle was simply too exhausted to keep running. . .

    Also keep in mind that amonst tall savanah grasses, walking upright lets you see over the grasses and see predators sooner.

    In otherwords, upright locomotion certainly has a downside, but its also got alot of nicepoints. It really just depends on the niche you're trying to fill.

  32. Redundancy also selected for by evolution by DumbSwede · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Polio, or diseases like it, being part of the environment contribute to evolution. Evolution is about becoming better adapted to your environment.

    1. Individuals that can walk upright when needed, will have increased chances for survival, thus concentrating genes that contribute to being able to walk upright.

    2. Being able to learn a behavior is also a genetic trait. Apes not able to learn an upright walking posture when needed (either due to disease or injury) will have diminished survival chances, even if physically capable of it.

    Thus disease may not only have selected for the ability to walk upright, but to being able to learn behaviors. Survival would have depended on both and most certainly would be evolution in action by weeding out inferior not-able-to-walk-upright and not-able-to-learn-new-behavior individuals.

    In the case of our hypothetical ape acquiring a behavior, you argue this is not contributing to evolution because he would have had the same genome with no advantage with or without the disease. BUT, his cousin without the ability to walk upright may have similarly fell prey to a polio like disease and not lived to spread his genes because he could not or would not walk upright. Thus our first ape gets to distribute his better upright walking, better behavior learning genes with less competition.

    You have 2 kidneys, when only one is needed. Why have 2 if redundancy doesn't contribute to survival or evolution? In this case upright walking is a redundancy for loosing an arm, and evolution could and probably did select for it.

    1. Re:Redundancy also selected for by evolution by mysticgoat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This monkey's arms and hands are no longer tied up in locomotion. She could now do things like easily carrying a tool from one place to another, things which would not have been feasible before. I think that gives her a significant "evolutionary edge" (I'm queasy about applying the term to an individual rather than a species, but I can't think of a better expression).

      Another point is that not all evolution is genetic, nor is all heredity genetic. Some social animals have cultures that evolve independently of genetics. I'm sure you can think of at least one example.

      I'm rather hoping this macaque gets a flash of insight and starts carrying around a digging stick or pair of nut-cracking rocks...

  33. Re:Glad I don't have to Google "Erect Monkey" at w by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 2, Funny

    Construction unions would take umbrage at the phrase for sure.

    --
    "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
    --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
  34. Re:A point for Darwinism? I see no point in this. by eraserewind · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I do not deny that natural selection occurs, species are formed and adapt, and that a change in allele frequencies occur.
    How come you say that natural selection occurs? Don't you mean that evolution occurs? From my understanding (which is limited), evolution is "a fact". Darwin's explanation of that fact is his "Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection". There are alternative scientific explanations, some of them largely debunked, and Darwin's has most (all?) of the evidence pointing towards it being correct, but the mechanism of evolution is still debated among scientists.

    For example gravity is similarly "a fact", but the fact that Newton's "Theory of Gravity" has been superceeded by Einstein's doesn't change the fact of gravity.

    For a Christian a "Theory of Evolution by Divine Intervention" would be as good an explanation as any (albeit one totally lacking evidence). But it seems to me that if you say that natural selection exists, then you have accepted Darwin's explanation for evolution (and man's origins).
  35. sweat not bipedalisim by Random_Goblin · · Score: 3, Informative

    you missed the point of the demonstation, (it was richard leaky by the way, son of louis and mary leaky, who did a great deal of work in africa on human origins, particuarly Australopithecus)

    the fact that he was able to run down the gazelle, was not to do with how much energy the gazelle was using, rather it was to do with the differences in heat dissipation between humans and .. all other mammals.

    obviously large amounts of heat are generated by the action of the muscles in running.

    the only way other mammals have of dissipating this potentially fatal heat increase is to pant, losing heat through water evaporation from the tongue.

    sweating is not an good heat loss solution for most mammals, as it takes very little heat from their bodies due to the dense covering of fur that is typical of mammals (except humans). Humans being largely hairless, are able to dissipate heat much more efficiently through sweating.

    it is this ability to lose the heat generated by running that enables hummans to run down pretty much any other mammal, as the animal will have to stop (or else die of heat stroke) long before the human.

    1. Re:sweat not bipedalisim by Sir_Toejam · · Score: 2, Informative

      perhaps THAT point was missed (thanks for the history lesson, BTW), but the posters point was about energy consumption of bipedal vs. qudrapedal locomotion, of which Leaky's experiment was not a good test of this. Great examples of experiments looking at energy efficiencies of various modes of locomotion can be found by doing searches on the research done on Kangaroo locomotion.

    2. Re:sweat not bipedalisim by maxpublic · · Score: 3, Insightful

      it is this ability to lose the heat generated by running that enables hummans to run down pretty much any other mammal, as the animal will have to stop (or else die of heat stroke) long before the human.

      While this is true, you also missed his point. If the human were to run full-out after the gazelle he'd quickly drop from both heat exhaustion AND energy expenditure. The human HAS to jog in order to balance energy expended with heat dissipated, otherwise the upright body position doesn't matter for shit.

      However, with the balance in place a human being can outrun, over long distances, almost any animal on the face of the planet. Wolves are one of the very few exceptions - because wolves also have a quadripedal 'jogging' gait that allows them to cover long distances at a fairly rapid pace without overheating, despite the fact that they don't sweat and are covered in fur.

      Being quadripedal is a decent advantage for long-distance travel. Being hairless works out pretty well too, except in colder climates. Having a gait inbetween 'walk' and 'run' that balances energy expenditure with heat dissipation and which doesn't deplete short-term reserves is absolutely essential if you want to outrace prey over the long haul. It is, however, a peculiar evolution, and most predators have no such gait, relying either on short-term speed, surprise, and/or teamwork to catch faster animals.

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
  36. Same thing happened to me! by popo · · Score: 2, Funny

    Late last night I was delusional, near coma, experiencing hallucinations and walking on all fours.

    And then *poof!*

    This morning I was walking around on two legs!

    --
    ------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
  37. Re:Theory of evolution scientific? by Cyno · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So you're arguement is it is more likely that lifeforms instantly appeared as a creation of God instead of evolving over the hundreds of millions or possibly billions of years they have existed? Can you fathom how long a million years is? How about a billion? Its a really long time, y'know.

    Why haven't christian scientists provided us a "theory" to explain this? It is scientificly provable is it not?

    theory - a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory"

    We ask for data and experimentation to prove your hypothesis that your God, the one that has a son named Jesus, is The Creator. That's all we ask. Then Intelligent Design might be taken a little more seriously, but it is hardly being ignored. But what about Catholicism, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism. They can't all be right can they?

    That's why we have science. It at least tries to derive truth by observing reality and recording the facts in the most objective manner possible given our extremely subjective human perspectives. And then it gives up trying to insist its authority when it has been proven wrong. So its really quite simple. Prove it wrong. Use science against itself.

    I won't pretend to know anything about stem cell research.

    Intelligent Design

    Evilution

    We have observed and recorded the observations of both mutation and natural selection in our history. Yet we have no recorded evidence of the existence of this Intelligent Designer. Can you please explain this for lazy potheads like myself who probably don't have a freakin clue?

    I might have a hypothesis to explain this intelligence in all these complex lifeforms. Actually I doubt its a real hypothesis, but anyway here it goes. The laws of physics describe the 4 known forces of nature and might appear intelligent to someone new to science. But as we learn more we find more mathematical complexity in the very fabric of our universe than is taught in our most prestigious universities. These "laws" of physics are highly dependant on our perspective within this universe. And our perspective is rather limitted compared to the whole of our macro/micro universe. So its highly unlikely that we will know-it-all anytime in the near future. And it will take even longer when we have religious and/or political groups insisting their new "science" is more accurate than those theories that have withstood hundreds of years of criticism. Propoganda and belief don't count as scientific evidence, sorry.

    The American Association for the Advancement of Science says:

    Whereas, ID proponents claim that contemporary evolutionary theory is incapable of explaining the origin of the diversity of living organisms;

    Whereas, to date, the ID movement has failed to offer credible scientific evidence to support their claim that ID undermines the current scientifically accepted theory of evolution;

    Whereas, the ID movement has not proposed a scientific means of testing its claims;

    Therefore Be It Resolved, that the lack of scientific warrant for so-called "intelligent design theory" makes it improper to include as a part of science education;

    Therefore Be Further It Resolved, that AAAS urges citizens across the nation to oppose the establishment of policies that would permit the teaching of "intelligent design theory" as a part of the science curricula of the public schools;

    Therefore Be It Further Resolved, that AAAS calls upon its members to assist those engaged in overseeing science edu

  38. Re: Irrelevant by Black+Parrot · · Score: 3, Insightful


    > Evolution runs into trouble at the cellular level with the high level of complexity that has yet to be replicated from base chemicals by modern labs. If, with the input of directed effort by an intelligent person, we can't generate what the cells that all life is built from, then the house of cards falls down.

    The funniest thing about the entire "Intelligent Design" movement (and that's a big pile of funny stuff) is the claim that the inability of intelligent people to do something is evidence that only an intelligent being could have done it.

    (Now go back and read your argument as quoted above.)

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  39. Entire story as flamebait? by Engineer+Andy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Given the intense level of debate, and the amount of heat as opposed to light from both sides of the evolution debate that ensued from the story, are we allowed to mod the whole article
    -1 flamebait? ;-)

    --
    "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World" 1 John 4:14
  40. Re:A question for evolutionists by maxpublic · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Without knowing too much about evolution theory, it would seem to me that intelligence would always be a selective factor in all species.

    Actually, the evidence would point to the opposite. So far as we know, over the entire history of life on this planet only one species has achieved human-level intelligence - ours. The most successful species on the planets are nothing more than tiny biological machines - insects - and they show no indication whatsoever of developing bigger brains, nor have they over hundreds of millions of years.

    Even for the 'brainy' animals like gorillas and chimpanzees brain growth stopped some time ago. They continued to evolve in other ways, but brain growth wasn't one of them. In fact, most of the variations of proto-humans that died out also didn't develop brains much beyond that of a chimpanzee, although they did continue to evolve in different areas, some of them rather specialized.

    Some folks speculate that there's a limit to how useful a big brain is compared to how much energy it consumes (the human brain typically consumes about 40% of the body's total energy). Beyond this limit the increased survival advantage is relatively trivial in comparison to energy consumption, which means that the larger brain is actually a defect in terms of survival. The theory is that it takes some very specialized circumstances to promote brain growth beyond this point, until the 'plateau' is surpassed and the brain is once again large enough to confer a survival advantage that outweighs its energy requirements. It would explain why apes aren't developing larger brains, and why nearly all of our evolutionary relatives developed a larger brain to a point, then seemed to stop although they still evolved and adapted to their environment.

    Human-level intelligence could very well be a combination of mild defects that occurred during a very forgiving period in Earth's ecological history, in a place where food was easy to come by and these defects didn't compromise survival. A certain selective set of very special cirumstances that lasted long enough to result in our big-brained ancestors (and our relatives, the Neanderthals), but in any other time or place would've killed those with the defects.

    People also assume that human evolution will continue to result in bigger brains, although there's no evidence to support this. It might very well be that the next step in our evolution won't be larger brains but more social, community-oriented ones with a suppression of violent instincts. That certainly seems to be more advantageous, especially when you already have a brain large enough to make yourself the dominant species and what you really need is a method to avoid species self-destruction.

    Max

    --
    My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
  41. Re:Score another one for creationists by Hungus · · Score: 3, Informative
    Not if you can't come up with a name other than AC :) Post as as yourself, or contact me off-line ( email is legit). In the mean time here is a very short overview of some of the frauds that have been perpetuated over time and while later shown false still appear in texts and in the minds of people (note not my work but rather part of a written work of a researcher by the name of H. Hanegraaff)

    At one time it was thought that we came from the Neanderthal. Neanderthals were discovered from 1848 to 1856 and for years they were considered to be apemen. But now we know, there's no argument here, that they're just plain ordinary people.

    And then, of course, the apeman that I introduced to you early on, Java man. Java man was discovered by a Dutchman. I'm a little embarrassed by that because I'm a Dutchman myself. His name was Eugene Dubois. The bones were found in 1891-1892 on the Indonesian Island of Java in Southeast Asia along the banks of the Solo River. And there was an interesting assortment. He found a leg bone, a skullcap, a jaw fragment and three teeth. And that's what he concocted Java man from. Interestingly enough some of the teeth were old and some young. The bones belonged to ape, female and male.

    It was an interesting conglomeration and the reason that people didn't catch on to it is because the find of Dubois was kept from scholars for about 30 years. He also, of course, withheld the discovery of modern human remains, which were found in the same stratum as Java man. Of course that would have ruined his claims that Java man was the ancestor of modern day humans. Finally, enough pressure was placed on him that the actual bones were allowed to be examined and the discrepancies were found. And eventually, enlightened America as well as the world found out that this was a hoax.

    Unfortunately hoaxes die hard. Time Magazine ran a cover story entitled "How Man Became Man". Richard Leaky is on the cover. It starts off ridiculing Christians and Creationists and then goes on to present Java man as though it were fact.

    Then, of course, there's Piltdown man. This was a discovery by Dawson in 1912. It was shown to be a hoax in 1953. This is a deliberate fraud. There were obvious file marks on the teeth. Stone tools, supposedly used by Piltdown man were actually shaped by steel instruments. That should have been a dead giveaway. The bone fragments were stained to make them look older and yet despite this in 1915 Doctors Arthur Woodward and Arthur Keeth, who were the two most eminent Paleoanthropologists in England declared that Eoanthropous, another name for Piltdown man, represents "more closely than any human form yet discovered the common ancestor from which the Neanderthal and modern types have been derived".

    This was just 1915. Now they had a motive. They were later charged with perpetrating the fraud in the first place. Yet this fraud was used for over 40 years to prove to school children that evolution was a fact and all kinds of doctrinal dissertations were based on Piltdown man.

    And then of course there's Nebraska man. One tooth found on a farm in Nebraska ... one tooth. But, with a little imagination, the tooth was imagined to be part of a jawbone. The jaw bone part of a skull. The skull part of a skeleton and by the time the story hit the London newspaper, we not only had a picture of Nebraska man but we had a picture of Nebraska mom complete with fur; All from one tooth. Imagine what they could have done had they found a skeleton; my they might have printed a yearbook.

    And then there was Peking man. The skulls found in caves outside of Peking, China. To wit Peking man before World War II. There's nothing human about them but they were in good shape. The skulls in the back were bashed in just a hair. Other than that, great shape. Tools were buried in the same area and the deduction was made. Ah-Ha! This must be a tool-using ape. Hence, an apeman. Great logic, right. No one stopped to consider tha

    --
    Bad Panda! No Bamboo for you! In matters of importance ACs will not be responded to. Want to say something critical,OK
  42. Re:Theory of evolution scientific? by riprjak · · Score: 2, Informative

    umm, didn't UC San Diego discover genetic evidence of macro evolution in 2000/2001 (relating, IIRC, to leg pairs on insects or some such) when they demonstrated a protein which caused the organism to develop one less pair of legs.

    Furthermore, there is no such thing as Scientific Fact. Everything, EVERYTHING, is a theory; even though many (gravity, thermodynamics) are discussed as fact. No theory stands longer than its disproof; dont yabber about it you fscking christian psycopath; disprove it and it will go away.

    Just my $0.02
    err!
    jak

    Disclaimer: My disparaging remark about christians should not lead you to conclude I am anti-christian. I spread my dislike of religion equally.

  43. Re:Theory of evolution scientific? by MBraynard · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Unaware of that example. Got a link?

    Here's a thought though. If it's a new species, then who was the first one going to breed with? Wouldn't this mutation have to simultaneously occured to two of them in proximity so they could mate? Talk about long odds.

    Or maybe it was already part of their genetic code and simply rare?

  44. Re:Score another one for creationists by Zareste · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The problem is that creationism is pseudo-science

    The problem with this post is that it has no ground to stand on.

    The sad truth is that you can take any nutcase concept, throw a thousand million years into it, and with no trouble at all, you've got the less competent side of the science community eating out of your hands. It's not very intelligent in the big scheme of things, but some people just want to believe whatever coincidence-theory spans the most years. If the logic common to these lower scientists held any ground, I could say that Manhattan evolved out of rocks and snails if I tossed a few hundred millenniums into the equation.

    For one, one does not read a book intended for spiritual enlightenment as a history book

    Now we're just shooting off in so many random directions that it's no wonder this post supports evolutionism. First: What book? Did this book create life? No? Then your argument and much of evolutionism is relying on something that has nothing to do with the subject. If you wanted to rant about some Jahovah's Witness that came to your door then there are other, more reasonable concepts to use.

    Second, if the "History cannot be spiritual" logic follows through then I can declare George Washington's biography to be a book written for spiritual enlightenment, and that would turn it into a big conspiracy lie and whatnot.

    Here we see evolutionism in a nutshell: Fragmented, inconsistent, unable to present an ounce of solid logic. All-in-all, nothing more than a misplaced rebellion against certain spiritual people and at most, a thoughtless piece of ammo to up the reputations of emerging pseudo-scientists. And if anything, the /. article this all stems from has proven that some evolutionists will grab at absolutely anything in order to say they have the slightest bit of proof.

    Thank you and goodnight!

    --
    I am NOT a number! I am a - oh wait, I'm number 761710. Look! 761710!
  45. Re:Bipedal posture in a monkey is a normal behavio by Mark+Shewmaker · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Obviously there are evolutionary advantages in being able to avoid accidents and disease, but when they do occur, aren't there also evolutionary advantages in being able to somehow avoid them killing you, (or causing your offspring or kin to die or suffer)?

    I think you're focusing purely on the former, and completely ignoring the latter.

    In dogs, a broken leg makes them walk on three legs. This is compensation, not evolution toward bipedal posture. The broken-legged puppy is LESS likely to survive and reproduce (its weaker bones mayhap?).
    But a broken-legged puppy that can still manage to walk (on three legs, or however) is MORE likely to survive than a broken-legged puppy that can't manage to walk at all.

    In monkeys, a broken or weak arm (eg. from illness) makes them prefer to walk on two legs, but again the arm problem makes them LESS likely to survive
    But a broken-arm monkey that can still manage to walk (on two legs, or however) is MORE likely to survive than a broken-arm monkey that can't manage to walk at all.

  46. Re:Theory of evolution scientific? by cruachan · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Just posted on this elsewhere. The idiocy, and power, of the Religious Right in America is going to be one of the prime reasons for the decline of the USA.

    The USA is now loosing heavily in stem cell and related areas of reseach. There's an increasing rate of migration of good life scientists out of the states and into Europe. Of course it's not absolute, but in this prime technology of the 21st century America is going to loose, and loose badly, in innovation to the EU.

    And that's just at the top. Maybe more important the USA is loosing from below. With the spread of both the teaching of 'Creationism' and the lack of teaching of Evolution (where it's judged too controvesial to teach either) the USA is both loosing potential life scientists and producing a climate where life science research is regarded with suspicion and undervalued. Again of course it's not absolute, but it'll be enough to erode any advantage the US has and pass the torch to Europe.

    Now who knows how important the biological sciences will eventually be in terms of society and economy? Maybe, as has been the case up to now, traditional engineering will continue to dominate and the relative decline of the USA will not be too great. On the other hand maybe the future is heavily dominated by molecular biology. Maybe we can treat aging, design babies to remove genetic defects and increase IQ, grow biological computers, use biological engineering rather than chemical engineering and much else.

    Some of these may be desirable, other not, but one thing is certain - in Europe, when such innovations are researched and developed the decision to use them or not will be made on democratic, pragmatic, secular grounds. In the USA the decision will be made on the basis of a 2000+ year old text.

  47. A trditional south african hunting method. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I forget what it was called, but this was a method used by some traditional south africans. Find the fittest and fastest dear/gazelle (whatever i cant remember that too!) and chase it. After 10 to 20km it would just be exausted and just lie down at which stage it became dinner. Interestingly of the tribe/hunter group chasing it only one person would chase, the others would just lag behind until the prey was worn out. By chasing the fastest and strongest, they always ensured that each generation was slower and thus made it easier for the next...

  48. Acquired Traits by KatTran · · Score: 2

    Let us not forget that Darwin actually aruged that acquired traits are not inherited.

    Now if you continue to believe in Lamarck's theories of evolution than this is significant, but since his theories have been thoroughly discredited by the scientific community for the past 200 years, this is just a messed up ape that now walks on two legs and has absolutely no significance in the future evolution of apes.

  49. Evolution? I'd call this ADAPTATION by imAck · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Flame what you will, but this sounds like an isolated case of adaptation...whether due to weakened stomach or weakened arms, etc.
    To rush off and cry "evolution" and "darwinism" etc. seems premature IMHO. Granted, you could say a genetic disposition existed that enabled the subject to adapt as such in the presence of adversity, but to prove that definitively as the cause (as opposed to raw adaptation) would take deep amounts of work, if that were even the case to begin with.

    --

    It's hard to tell the cool to chill, my favorite hotel room has a view to an ill.