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IBM Donates Java Database App. to Apache Foundation
the_pooh_experience writes "IBM has announced that it will open up Cloudscape by giving it to the Apache Software Foundation. Cloudscape, a small footprint Java database, is primarily used for small scale websites and point-of-sale systems. Its new, opensource name will be 'Derby.' Cloudscape (originally created by Informix, and purchased by IBM in 2001) has been valued by IBM at $85M."
Can anyone comment on how it performs?
Good! This is quite a nifty little SQL engine with a lot of features. Will be exciting to follow the progress of Derby, could provide competition for mysql and postgresql.
//TheToon
Geez is the NYT dumb. Putting something in the "public domain" means you relinguish control. It's owned equally by everyone. Choosing an "open source" license means you keep control. If you're careful about how you do it, you can even change the license terms a bit later. MySQL is constantly tweaking their terms because they're the sole copyright owner. Sure, it's available under the GPL, but they can tweak the terms for preferred customers. And they do! That's still their perogative because the code is NOT in the public domain.
"...has been valued by IBM at $85M."
Now, it's free, so it's worthless.
Is this designed to compete directly with MySql or is it like an open source version of Microsofts MSDE. Suitable for a small web app but not for hosting something like slashdot or Amazon? It's cool to see IBM once again support the OSS community.
Simon
A win-win scenario for IBM: donate a software application at an inflated price for a big tax break while also looking good to the open-source community. At least that's how I assume it works in the US.
Compared to the alternative of supporting or shelving a dead application, can you blame them? Perhaps at least this will serve as a good model for other companies that still consider dead software as a corporate asset.
In any case it's cool they donated it. Being a database developer myself, I'm extremely wary of the "you don't need a DBA" claim, but regardless of the hype it looks like an interesting product that will fit in well with the Apache lineup.
This Like That - fun with words!
Leave it to NYT to misinform people. The article says that IBM put the code "in the public domain". The license by which the Apache foundation will distribute this is certainly NOT public domain. It later says "Apache will hold the licensing and intellectual property rights to the Cloudscape code."
I wish people would stop mixing these things with public domain. Apache's license, GPL, etc., are forms of copyright, and are NOT public domain.
I don't want to be a Java troll or anything
Well, I hate to be the one to break it to you...
The Cloudscape homepage: Cloudscape
And more details with links to PDF documents: Features and Benefits
I would guess that mysql would be faster for simple stuff, but Cloudscape could give it a run for it's money with support for more complex SQL.
Wouldn't know how it compares agains postgresql...
//TheToon
Here is the registration required link. Don't even think you can pull that "parnter=rssuserland" crap around here, buddy.
"If I am such a genius, how come that I am drunk and lost in the desert with a bullet in my ass?" --Otto (Malcom ITM)
Nope...they won't put anything in without you signing the copyright over.
Given a choice between free speech and free beer, most people will take the beer.
There are other DBs written in Java , for example Mckoi SQL .
Mckoi SQL is quite usable, supports a great deal of the SQL 92 standard, and the performance is not bad (of course, talking about the range of database sizes for which it makes sense using an embedded sql engine
Does anyone have experience with Couldscape. How does it compare with Mckoi?
Not really sure how it compares to mySql or postgres, but I loaded a 50+ million row table with a non index timestamp field to Cloudscape and MSSQL. Both took about 3 seconds to return a query returning a unique row (ie a row updated on a specific date and time) on this field on a 2ghz intel machine with 1GB RAM.
Firebird SQL was about the same. Next Im going to try HSQL.
I would be interested in anybody elses experiments?
On the other hand, it's still a (relative) memory hog.
Yes, I think this has some value for such a monolythic project as MySQL. Plus, it's clear that such a program would have made life a bit easier for the Linux kernel team after the appearance of SCO. I don't know about most contributors, but I'm more interested in getting a working tool than keeping copyright of some snippet of code. So it doesn't bother me much.
Maybe it's just me, but I believe cloudscape is primarily used inside Websphere to ease development of ejbs by making the database local. I can't see it being incredibly useful outside of that... only as development, not as anything deployed. i could be wrong....
When I tell an object to delete this, am I killing it or telling it to kill me?
Great!!!
:)
Maybe slashdot can used it to stop the 503 errors
Of anything out there I think Cloudscape is most similar to Berkeley DB for Java (an in-process DB). The comment about it being a stepping-stone to DB2 could be made about any JDBC-compliant DBMS...IBM just happens to favor theirs ;-)
Good thing it's Derby and not Firebird.
Anyway - why bother renaming and what is "Open Source Name"?
Cloudscape was originally crated by Cloudscape, Inc. (I contracted for them at one time), which was later acquired by Informix.
At the time, it was a fairly complete and well-performing database with some nifty multi-database synchronization features, so even though I'm not involved in Java programming anymore this can turn out to be a quite interesting addition to Joe. A. Opensourcecoder's toolkit.
I can't count the number of times I've needed a silly ass database app to store a tiny amount of needed data on a site that has no other need for databases. These things are useful in their own right, because you don't want to HAVE to set up Oracle or DB2 when all you need is this.
Nice to see IBM giving to opensource, even if it is only a minor product.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
They should donate their JVM to the Mozilla Foundation. Having a high quality, open source JVM would further undermine Sun's position in the Java market AND it would create a buffer against Microsoft's .NET. However, I don't think it would do much good against those that want to build on Mono.
Click here or a puppy gets stomped!
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
You obviously haven't used java within the past 3 years or so.... Its speed on every platform I've developed on is no different then native speed, and in many scenarios its faster because of the many optimizations that java makes to your code and also from years of optimizing their own algorithms. This could be debated well... forever, but anymore if you need something faster then java then you should probably be using assembly. Speed and overall performance has only gotten better with the new 1.5 VM as well (It's now known as 5.0, and its still in beta but very useable).
Regards,
Steve
If someone could develop and release an Open Source / Free Software Java Object Database that can house live java objects and provide searching and modification on these objects. Zope built atop Python provides just this for Python users and is used to good sucess on many web sites (Zope provides through the web editing of Python/Zope objects and has a very nice search interface for finding that object you require). Everything in Zope is a Python object and is stored in a fast, low resource object datbase - this includes all your web site and the methods to run on them. Its great, free and fast and is available from www.zope.org.
First off, Cloudscape runs on nearly every system in current use. MS SQL Express requires Windows (2000 or XP). It also requires a fairly beefy sytem for a light database. Check out the system requirements. Note that specialized MS platforms, such as MS Windows 2000 Datacenter Server (of all things) are not supported.
Finally, that MS crap is still beta software whereas Cloudscape is well tested, enterprise ready code.
(Score: -1, Stupid)
Let's hope Microsoft haven't patented naming database software after clouds !!
(MS Access' project name was originally Cirrus)
-- "It's not stalking if you're married!" My Wife.
Funny how the word Apache in the article is linked to the stock ticker for APA. (Or may be not so funny) For the record - The Apache Software Foundation is a registered non-for-profit 501 c3 corporation incorporated in Delaware, and as such it does not have stock but rather can hand out membership to make one a stakeholder.
This product does not compete against MySQL. It competes with HSQL, Pointbase, JDataStore, and any other pure Java database solution. It can be used with Java Webstart, to distribute a configuration free local database with your Java applications. I think this can also be used with Java Enabled Phones, and PDA's.
That seems strange to me since everything at Jakarta is under the "Apache License". I wonder if this is a mis-print or will jakarta really host a project that is not under their license?
Both IBM and the analyst mentioned in the article say this is about competition; undermine MS SQL Server while boosting Websphere. If some small-scale apps are developed in Cloudscape/Java instead of .NET then when/if those apps grow up the natural evolution would be to migrate to DB/2 & Websphere. And maybe it isn't even about making more profit on Websphere but just slowing the penetration of MS into the back office.
Don't touch it with a 10 foot pole - it is most likely tainted!
Any moment now, I'm sure we'll hear how SCO (through an ownership rationalization chain that will make Rube Goldberg pack his bags and head to the nether regions of shame) actually owns this (without having actually coded a bloody thing) and that IBM has no rights to give away anything it developed.
Save yourself the grief, expense, and the ensuing barrage of Slashdot rants about SCO! Just say 'NO'.
The little guy just ain't getting it, is he?
The biggest problem we have had with it is that the only transaction level it supports in READ_UNCOMITTED, and that it doesn't support multiple parallel queries.
Unfortunately (depending on your point of view), SQLite doesn't have java bindings (that I know of). If someone does know of java bindings for SQLite, I'd be interested!
Add to this some context.
* Most web applications are not written in C++/C
* More and more client-applications are being written in Java/.Net due to maintainability
* There is an impedance mismatch between OO systems and RDBMS systems
** Bridging this gap often involves very non-performant abstractions:
*** wrapping bean-objects around rows
*** storing intermediate copies of beans for caching
*** making copies of beans for transactional purposes.
*** redundantly applying data-constraint rules
Essentially re-inventing the RDBMS wheel.
Thus, if you're already going to write the application in Java, then there is a tremendous advantage to avoiding the performance bottlenecks of the impedance mismatch.
Think of what a c/c++ database does in the best case.. It compiles a SQL script, loads internal relationships to columns/rows.. Accesses the in-memory indexes, and then formats/serializes the in-memory rows for output.
Java has to deserialize the text-stream, instantiate numerous objects; possibly unicodifying the data. Then whatever abstraction layers may be applied to the raw object-array result-set have to be applied.
If the data was locally available, then it could be stored in such a way that, for read-only access, it might be possible to avoid copying, and merely have it return a wrapper for the raw data. Zero latency, and practically zero additional extra work. While this is effectively the same as cached data, here we only store the data once on disk and once in memory.
"hsqldb" is an example that pretty much does the above. You still get a SQL interface if you desire though. Only catch is that hsqldb isn't as feature-rich as many RDBMS systems yet. I'm sure the IBM java-database is merely a feature-rich sister of hsqldb.
And don't forget that many java API's still use raw c-code to do intensive or tight-data-structure work.
-Michael
I ported a CloudScape DDL to Oracle once upon a time. Since CloudScape is so standards compliant it was very easy.
Those who administer J2EE applications resist new databases. Having an embedded one like this is a selling point since it leads to lower maintenance costs. Maybe.
This type of program doesn't apply at all to the Linux kernel. The GPL is strange, in that instead of signing control of a copyright to a singular entity, you keep it... but what you wrote is "free." Free as in, you can't dictate to other people what to do with your copyrighted code, with exception of enforcement of the GPL. You've agreed to allow everyone to modify it, copy it, sell it, barf on it, etc.
The Kernel does have a group of controlling entities, most obviously Linus. Then comes all of the branch maintainers. Other than that, the "official" linux branches don't get modified without their approval.
The appearance of SCO would have affected Linux regardless of what license they are using. If IBM signed over the copyright to Linus, then SCO would still sue them. If someone decided to sign over copyrighted code written by me to someone else, I'd probably be upset too. Then again, SCO doesn't own any of the code that was placed into Linux, so the point is moot.
You need to restart your computer. Hold down the Power button for several seconds or press the Restart button.
The main thing I've felt that has been holding Star/Open office back is a need of a database as easy as MS Access.
I know it's a different language, but work with me for a second.
Yes, Access sucks as a DB, but it's good for three things. First, it's a quick and dirty way to store data. Secretaries and analysts use it, dump their data in a little file, put it on a floppy, bring it home, work on stuff at home, and bring it back on a floppy the next day. That is the ultimate selling point of file based databases. Even with Open Office's database tools, I have to know something about being a DBA - starting mysqld, db security, etc. Second, our DBAs love it because it's a graphical frontend to ODBC datbases. It gives semi-cluefull non-techs a way to see data. Finally, you can actually drop it onto a webserver and drive databases with it. Biases aside, it did gather them a following in the late 90's when everybody was a "developer" doing websites.
Any sort of MSOffice competitors have taken a while to solve these three needs elegantly. Looking at the IBM site, it looks like Cloudscape, with the embeded and network connectivity features, can be a foundation for something that can fill all three needs.
Yup. You're missing the fact that that IBM didn't write the code. Cloudscape wrote the code. Informix bought it, and then IBM bought Informix.
The $85 million price tag is not an abitrary figure but is the actual cost of the code when it was purchased in 1999.
Notice how IBM is responding to competition by offering something to the community, while Sun's response to competition is to take something away (Novell/SUSE). I know, I know, it's GPL, they can't really take it away, but I think the point is still valid. Sun's response to competition should be to GPL Solaris and/or Java, not try to lock things up. Rather than try to improve themselves, stupid Sun's trying to compete by trying to hurt the competition instead - which will backfire.
I mod down all the "free iPod"-sig losers.
Downloaded it, installed it, created a database, then table, inserted data into table, all within 15 minutes. Not bad. It looks pretty cool. Of course DB2 is all over it, and I noticed a tool to migrate to DB2 when this isn't big enough.
It has a transaction log, row level locking, locking isolation levels, deadlock detection, etc. This really is a full featured database like DB2, Oracle, or Sybase. NO it isn't comparable, but it has the basic features. I deal with mutli-terabyte databases every day, and would love to have the time to create and torture Cloudscape on that level. Oh well, never anytime to play.
Swing starts to become slow as soon as it has to bypass the hardware acceleration functions entirely. Even using volatile images for double buffering in java2d can help immensely once the volatile images can be handled by the graphics adapter. You could see that in windows with the speed increase once you moved from jdk 1.3 to 1.4 it almost was five times faster. Alas the unix version was a little bit behind because using backbuffers and directly using the graphics cards ram is not that trivial in plain X, you have to bypass X or go the OpenGL route. Newere JDKs (1.4.2 rc1 from blackdown and 1.5 from Sun go that route)
Benefits aren't everything. You cost a lot more to the business.
There's the cost of rent, utilities for your office, your desk, your phone, your work cell phone, your work blackberry, the fax line, the copier, the copier paper, property taxes, the cost of keeping your parking space free of snow. Some communities charge an employment head tax. Oh, and don't forget hiring a janitor to keep your toilets clean. And some places you need to hire 'overhead' (ie: management) just to keep the yahoos in line.
When I was in consulting we charged the client roughly 2.7x what we were making per hour. (Of course, that was in the rough-and-tumble heady days of consulting (the early 90s).
Your standard IBM programmer probably makes $70K, add in another $40K for benefits, and double it for all the costs associated with hiring the person and you're at $220,000, almost the $250,000 the grandparent claimed.
My father is a blogger.
Cloudscape has a relatively small market share among SQL databases, but it is popular in certain niches. It came bundled with Sun's reference implementation of J2EE at one time, too; I don't know if that's still the case.
Breakfast served all day!
It's just formatted with mixed spaces and tabs and your editor is probably converting the tabs to 8 spaces. XEmacs loads it okay if your tabs are set to 4 spaces, then you can select the text in the buffer and do a M-x untabify.
Otherwise, something like this should work
There are supposed to be four spaces inbetween the / / .
Anyone know what the hell is going on over at Slashdot HQ?
See this thread for wild speculation. Short version: there was a change to Slashcode that included making all of Slashdot available as a single RSS feed (rather than one feed per section as used to be the case), and on the hour RSS aggregators hit this single feed and somehow cause a 503 for logged in users.
Wild speculation, remember. Any actual solid info appreciated.
Vino, gyno, and techno -Bruce Sterling