FCC Says TiVo Owners Can Share Shows

Ec|ipse writes "Last week TiVo received alot of heat from MPAA and NFL for a proposal regarding sharing of recorded shows with users, see previous story. Today it looks like TiVo has received approval." From the Reuters story as carried by Yahoo!: "TiVo, maker of popular digital television recording devices, on Wednesday received approval for technology that would permit users to send copies of digital broadcast shows over the Internet to a few friends."

Comments

Amazing... A step forward?

[ianbnet]

I am always skeptical of how this will play out in the long run, but this looks like it could have a significant impact in returning fair-use rights to consumers.

I would love to know how this might act as a precedent for computer-based sharing methods... i.e. recording a show with BeyondTV or another PVR and emailing it to a friend.

Re:Amazing... A step forward?

[Anonymous Coward]

More like a step to the side. Clearly not backwards but not entirely forward either.

Here's the problem: "fair use" cannot be determined by a computer algorithm. People are attempting to use computer algorithms to make sure nothing outside "fair use" happens. Since error is inevitable, media companies always make sure the error is in the direction of "they're just making a backup but we think they're a pirate" than "they're making four hundred copies, but hey, maybe they've got 400 TVs". They may adjust their formulas every now and then but the new formulas will still be wrong.

As long as we accept computers making LEGAL DECISIONS for us, then we will never get our fair use rights back. Getting fair use rights back MEANS also getting back the ability to pirate media. You can't separate one activity from the other except with a human judge. ...which is the way it should be. All DRM should simply go away. You will then have ALL of your fair use rights, and you will also have the ability to pirate media. However, pirating media has been against the law for as long as I can remember (longer than the computer industry has existed for sure), so you can still get arrested for it.

So in my Slashdot-friendly dream world, everyone has fair use rights and pirates go to jail. In RIAA/MPAA DRM-friendly dream world, "fair use" users and pirates are both thrown in jail, and media companies, not the law, get to determine the new definition of "fair use". Today's definition is "sharing with 9 friends".

Re:Amazing... A step forward?

[gcaseye6677]

As we've seen with copy protected CDs, fair use rights don't always mean freedom for the customer. Apparently, the recording industry is permitted to make CDs that are "copyproof" despite fair use clauses in copyright law. The rationale is that the customer cannot be prosecuted for making personal copies but the producer does not have to do anything to enable that, and can apparently stop it too. In this case, I didn't see anything in the article that said the NFL or other content producers had to go along with this, it only said the FCC gave TiVO the OK on the technology. I expect to see lots of obstruction efforts on the part of media companies and would be surprised if this gets resolved anytime soon. In the mean time, legitimate customers will be inconvenienced and pirates will continue as usual.

Re:Amazing... A step forward?

[homer_ca]

"As long as we accept computers making LEGAL DECISIONS for us, then we will never get our fair use rights back."

The reason people haven't complained about these laws against petty crimes is because traditionally it was impossible or impractical to enforce them perfectly. How the hell do you stop people from taping songs off the radio or lending VHS tapes of shows they recorded off the air or driving a few mph over the speed limit. Well now with computers it's possible to build recorders that refuse to record off the air or a computer for the car that prints out a speeding ticket every time you go over the speed limit even by 1 mph.

There's an old saying: The best way to repeal an unpopular law is to enforce it strictly.

Pessimist in me...

[KrackHouse]

This will last a few days untill the waves of lobbyists show up and the FCC and demand a better return on investment.

I wonder...

[Marscity9]

I have heard rumors about PMP (personal/portable media players) being able to hook up to the TIVO, and then you can watch it anywhere. If this would allow it, I think it would be great for Tivo, so anyone can use it to watch their favorite show anywhere.

Wow

[brandonY]

I'll be more impressed if they can be uploaded freely as a standard file without any of this password nonsense, but this is still much, much, much better than caving to the football lobby.

Groovy. What harm can it do?

[underpar]

I mean.. I know "airing regional games outside of their market" is dangerous to the fabric of society and capitalism as a whole, but I'd like to send 'Office Space' to my sister. It seems wrong for an office worker to have never seen that movie.

Finally, the Legal system working for us.

[mesmartyoudumb]

The End is near!
Long gone are the days of law makers stomping on the face of the digitally inclined.

So long 50 year copyright act!
so long DMCA!
So long RIAA lawsuites!

Ok..maybe im a little optimistic.

Re:Finally, the Legal system working for us.

[WD_40]

Is a lawsuite like a lawhotelroom, but nicer?

At least until...

[MaineCoon]

At least until the corporations lobby and buy a change of decision from the FCC.

While this is a win for fair use rights (although it could sanely be argued it goes beyond fair use, I'm not going to be the one doing the arguing), it goes without saying that the MPAA and friends will not take this sitting down.

Re:YES!

[aka-ed]

Don't celebrate. Did you RTFA? DRM will keep your shared programming to a max of 9 good friends. No promise that the presence of DRM won't allow some things to be made unshareable somewhere up the road. Anyway it won't be in your hands to make those decisions...

Hmm will MLB still come after me..

[NightWulf]

if I only have implied oral consent..but not expressed written consent?

ReplayTV was right after all

[vaylen]

Maybe this means http://www.planetreplay.com/ can allow people to share shows from their ReplayTV's again.

No P2P for you

[Wesley Felter]

It's not at all the same concept. TiVo2Go is like iTunes; you can only share among computers registered with the same account.

ReplayTV anybody?

[jahead]

Anybody remember the ReplayTV 4500 and 5000 series? They both allowed show sharing. It was a major selling point for ReplayTV, in fact. They were sued by Disney and a few other broadcasters to stop show sharing (as well as an automatic commercial skip feature). There was even a limit on the number of times you could send a show (five times). Does this ruling mean that TiVo cannot be sued and that ReplayTV can reintroduce the feature?

What's next?

[rsilvergun]

Legit bittorrent downloads? Sounds cool, but I wonder how long it'll last (TV shows to DVD is a lucrative market, and I doubt studios like the idea of competing with downloads). There's bound to be some limitations (I'm at work and too lazy/busy to read the whole article just yet), but still, I just can't believe this is happening. How did this get through?

Re:What's next?

[Dever]

"I have a 20" widescreen monitor, surround sound and a couch 6 feet behind my computer."

That must suck when everyone on the couch has to sit behind your computer and watch you watching a show.
bastard.

is this in the FCC's jurisdiction?

[josecanuc]

Is this in the FCC's jurisdiction? They are in charge of regulating the airwaves of the United States. Once you've received a digital program over the air, does the FCC have any more authority to tell you what you can do with the copyrighted product that they don't even have the rights to distribute?

I'm just asking...

Re:is this in the FCC's jurisdiction?

[ca1v1n]

The FCC has the power to regulate devices which receive such signals. The TiVo does this. If you separated the receiver and the more interesting parts of the TiVo into separate black boxes, you probably wouldn't get anywhere, since they'd functionally be part of the same device.

Re:is this in the FCC's jurisdiction?

[PCM2]

Once you've received a digital program over the air, does the FCC have any more authority to tell you what you can do with the copyrighted product that they don't even have the rights to distribute?

You are correct. What has happened here (according to the article) is that the FCC has adopted rules requiring digital broadcasters to implement controls (i.e. copy protection, DRM etc.) preventing indiscriminate sharing of media. So in other words, the FCC can regulate broadcasters, and one of the FCC's mandates to broadcasters is that the protect the rights of the copyright owners of the content they carry. TiVo has implemented some such restriction in thie new system, and the FCC has approved it -- meaning TiVo's system meets the FCC's definition of a scheme to protect copyright. (So I guess this also must mean that TiVo's system meet's the FCC's definition of a broadcaster?)

Sounds to me like what's happened is that the MPAA and NFL won't be able to lobby the FCC to take action against TiVo. Instead, they'll have to spend their own money to sue TiVo under the DMCA.

Re:is this in the FCC's jurisdiction?

[Adrian Lopez]

As far as I'm concerned they're out of their jurisdiction, but that's something only a judge can determine. Everybody here is celebrating the FCC's decision, but to me this is just another hint at the fact that the FCC is attempting to regulate copying through their broadcast flag mandate.

I'd like to think that it's the job of Congress and not the FCC to regulate copying. Why is this an important distinction? Because congresspeople are elected, but FCC officials are appointed!

Yeah, Right.

[scowling]

1. There's no way that this is gonna last.

2. This is going to be used by current Usenet, BT and Kazaa-based sharers as justification for their broad distribution of TV shows (don't get me wrong; I download TV, but I wouldn't justify it like this).

Before the Smack-Down

[ackthpt]

TiVo, maker of popular digital television recording devices, on Wednesday received approval [from FCC] for technology that would permit users to send copies of digital broadcast shows over the Internet to a few friends."

I am always skeptical of how this will play out in the long run, but this looks like it could have a significant impact in returning fair-use rights to consumers. ... I would love to know how this might act as a precedent for computer-based sharing methods.

You know that this will be appealed to the powers-that-be who will smack-down the FCC, yet again. It's the kind of news that gives you hope, just before your cynicism of the system is reinforced.

What Is Today?

[rsmith-mac]

So does this mean this is a "love the FCC" day, or do we still get to hate them?

Reporting from Cheney, WA...

[Anonymous Coward]

I am currently located here in the lovely city of Cheney, which happens to be hosting the Seattle Seahawks training camp.

The other day, as my roommate and I walked past the practice field (paid for by my tax dollars!) I mentioned that the goings on with Tivo and the NFL were really getting on my nerves (as I am highly supportive of my right to sit around and stare at the glowing picture tube.)

An eery silence descended upon the land.

A giant of a man, who stood 6 foot 6, weighed 245 (at the least!) looked at me and asked if I might happen to be "that commie nerd, CmdrTaco", who I bear a striking resemblence to. Of course, I am but a humble code monkey and part-time troll, and so replied that I was not, nor had ever been, a commie nerd taco. He became enraged, and I feared that he would pummel me senseless for my insolence.

Luckily, a giant dust storm swept me away.
They even caught it on camera; NWCN I believe.

Now, for the meat of my post- can somebody get me out of this tree before this guy turns off his wireless router or my laptop dies? SCO Unix doesn't manage power very well.

Freudian slip...

[jared_hanson]

I think what just occured there was a Freudian slip, and your subconcious was acknowledging that there is, in fact, no god.

Supreme Court

[hhawk]

Let's just remember that the Supreme Court sided with Sony on the famous Betamax case that allowed VCRs/VRTs in the first place.

Also, if there wasn't some type of DRM here they wouldn't have gotten certified.

But if they hadn't granted some type of certification they would have run afoul of the Betamax ruling...

Legality of sharing shows..?

[schmiddy]

I've been chewing on this for a while..

I know it's legal for me to tape a TV show from the air onto VHS, DVD, or TiVo myself. I suspect it's probably legal for me to, say, loan the VHS tape to a friend so he/she can watch it as well. And now, obviously TiVo owners can send each other episodes they recorded.

How is this all different than downloading a TV episode of a p2p network? I think I remember hearing of people getting DMCA notices for doing exactly that.

Anyone know where the line is in this case?

Just Wait until someone gets sued...

[CygnusXII]

This will last until someone get sued, and the case is taken to the Supreme court. It works the same way with legislation. Remember, this is FCC regulation, that doesn't mean it is final. The FCC is as wishy washy as all get out. Remember these are the Same folks that just said they were going to Regulate Violence on TV. Let us not lose track of the way Regulation and FCC have worked together. How bout them Analog Airwave Rights passing to Public Access?
Now they are going to the highest bidder, once the Broadcasting corporations decide to grudgingly let loose of them.
Still I am glad to see they are hanging themselves out there for the little guy, for once. (at least for NOW)

ReplayTV is the only way to go.

[Dejohn]

Tivo is nice, but ReplayTV is better. I use Pooli.com to share shows all the time with people all over the net. I've been using DVArchive to store shows on my PC's drive and burn to DVD for a long time. If you get the 5040 or 5080, Commercial Advance is fully operational and works great. As far as I know, none of this stuff is going to change for the ReplayTV.

Re:YES!

[ron_ivi]

There are /. readers with more than 9 friends! Wow.

Re:YES!

[The Only Druid]

Well, there are a few places you're incorrect.

First, TivoToGo seems to be a streaming application, akin to the current HMO features on Tivos. This means that there will [likely] never be a complete copy of the file on the computer. This of course doesn't prevent someone from developing an app to catch the stream. Good luck though.

Second, you didn't read the article: in order to play back one of the Tivo'd files, you'll need a physical dongle - a small USB tab - to provide the decryption key. That is how they limit you to nine people: only nine dongles can be tied into your Tivo's account.

Now, it should be noted that existing hacks (look for "Sleeper's ISO" for more info, to start) provide the ability to fully extract video off a Tivo (after it's been hacked somewhat), and that is what Tivo is trying to combat. In much the same way that iTunes' Music Store snagged the music-downloaders who were willing to pay a little for the convenience of (a) downloading the file quickly and (b) doing so legally, Tivo is hoping that TivoToGo will snag the people who want to view their shows in other places and do so without violating their warranty.

Re:YES!

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, you have more than 9 friends according to /.'s member profile

Why ask in the first place?

[OWJones]

There's one big point that a lot of people seem to be missing:

The fact that TiVo even had to ask the FCC in the first place.

The assumption being that the FCC has some say over whether or not your hardware has the capability to send bits over the wire. Note that it's not whether or not you can send the bits over the wire, but your hardware. The first is behavior potentially regulated by the Constitution, the second is simple innovation.

Yes, the FCC was nice. But it's crazy that TiVo had to ask in the first place. Don't forget that.

-jdm

Re:Why ask in the first place?

[batkiwi]

They didn't HAVE to. They did this in the same vein as getting a preliminary injunction, to avoid being sued.

They had two options:

-Do this, and now tv networks/etc have to sue the FCC to get the ruling changed

-NOT do this, and have every tv network sue them once it goes live, and have it likely have to be disabled during the trial

Which option is better for their customers, and more importantly, investors?

It doesn't mean anything...

[Anita Coney]

The FCC also ruled that Bono could say "fuck" on TV. A few weeks after Ms. Jackson exposed her tit, the FCC changed its mind.

The FCC WILL change its mind once networks start throwing their weight around. Heck, even the movie and music industries will get involved with this one. No copyright holder likes sharing without explict and paid permission.

Re:YES!

[PalmerEldritch42]

Through the Gnutella network, I have millions of close friends.

Odd remarks

[abacsalmasi]

I'm sure all you Tivo lovers in the US are aware that we don't get it here in Canada, but one glaring omission is starrring me right in the eyes. If I take any TV and just plug it into a wall outlet and fire it up, I'll get free TV. Granted, it's not cable, but it's free. If I Tivo'd these shows, shouldn't I be able to distribut them to anyone else who's just bought a TV and plugged it in also? How would anybody lose money from this? Wouldn't I just be propogating the show itself and getting it to more users on their behalf? A D M

One last problem....

[Powertrip]

...We just have to find something worthwhile to record...

Summertime TV stinks, especially without TechTv :)

Nielsen Ratings

[bjb]

Lets try this approach: Sharing is fine. As long as the commercials and station calls are retained (i.e. ads for the station, or those little transparent logos in the bottom right corner) then I don't see why there should be much of a problem. I mean, if the broadcast of the show is effectively for free to the consumer's set (ad-revenue supported) then as long as the station IDs and commercials stay, whats the difference?

The only thing that I can see being a serious issue is that of Nielsen ratings. If there is the chance that people are going to watch these shows after the fact and as such cannot be caught by the Nielsen rating system, then would this hurt the broadcaster?

Just a thought...