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Big Brother In Your Front Seat
Rick Zeman writes "Would you give up your privacy in your car to save a few bucks on your auto insurance? 'Safe' drivers who plug an electronic device into their vehicles will be then eligible for a discount on their insurance. They say, '...the device constantly tracks car speed. By comparing that with a clock in the TripSense device, the device figures how far the car goes, mapping it against the time of day. At the end of each policy term, the customer would download the data and see what discount he or she would get. Customers can see all their data before deciding to send it to Progressive, and can decide not to send it -- and not get extra discounts.' I wonder how soon it will be that everyone has one except those resigned to paying extra as with grocery 'convenience' cards."
Gotta love this. It's entrampment. They assume if you don't wish to upload your driving data that you are a bigger risk.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
How long until this is hacked? I predict even before it hits the mainstream and they are still running trials.
Someone told me once that if you rent an Avis car with GPS capabilities and you are speeding, the system will alert the main office and add fees to your car rental bill. I don't care to verify the story; I drive fast as it is.
Did anyone bother to ask the customers what they want?
The catch is that you have to be insured by Progressive. Bleh. I had their service for a year, then jumped to State Farm and am paying $300 less per 6-month term then I was before.
Also, what about those of us who constantly go 5 mph above the speed limit? Would we be targeted as reckless drivers because we "speed" most of the time? No thanks.
IMO, I think they'd have to offer a little bit more of a discount for the masses to really consider it. I'd slow down a bit if it were worth it. But for someone who may be paying $500/yr for insurance and getting MAYBE 5% off, that's only $25, or maybe $2/month. Just doesn't sound too enticing to me, though some people may jump at the opportunity to save a little. But your results may vary.
Because that truck is trying to merge and the assholes next to you and behind you are crowding too close to make slowing down or changing lanes an option that doesn't result in an accident?
Or how about the dumbass who goes slow as hell on the highway, causing more of a danger to others than the guy who goes slightly over the speed limit?
Hell, what about the number of morons I've had to avoid becuase they can't figure out which fucking lane to turn into in a double left turn?
My point is speed isn't the only deciding factor in accidents, and if you have a device that measures only speed, well, it's like asking a blind man to describe the mountain vista to you. He can only say so much about it, in a non-contextual way, in a situation where context is of the utmost importance. It's the reason we don't have automatic pilot on cars yet... context is too important.
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
I wonder how well Progressive's device will corralate with actual accident rates. It can't tell the difference between going 55 on a highway and going 55 in a preschool parking lot. Or, for that matter, 20 mph in the lot, and 20 on the highway.
Hopefully they'll do more than just histogram your speeds -- maybe they'll try to categorize your driving -- local, stop-and-go, freeway -- and then maybe check to see how often you suddenly decellerate. Jazz it up right, and you could detect cell phone usage, too.
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
well... over here in BC Canada, the government has a monopoly on car insurance. what can you say to that?
The Neo-Bohemian Techno-Socialist
The device is similar to the Davis Carchip if not this particular device. It hooks up to the OBDII port and reads the car's vitals from there.
Remember, it's a device drivers can simply plug in to the car. OBDII is a serial protocol that would be a bit harder to hack than the speedometer pulse wire.
Some things the CarChip does that this device will likely do:
1. Record times the device was disconnected
2. Record times data was downloaded/memory cleared
3. Keep a record of the speeds via timed snapshots
4. Keep a record of the date/time car was used (and how long).
It can keep track of vehicle usage (in my case) for the last three months with logging data points every 5 seconds.
No records of destinations or GPS tracking on these base models.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the company, but I have a Carchip E/X installed as insurance against unfair tickets and warranty "abuse" claims by the manufacturer.
I tried every decent and legal way I could think of to resolve the issue w/the business before I rented the chicken suit
I disagree with the premise. Who says that 'speeding equates to accidents?'. Give me a break. I've been almost run over by grandmas not paying attention going 10 miles an hour under the speed limit. Perhaps we should raise car insurance rates exponentially as age increases to get the real threat off the road.
Certainly if one is not paying attention, no matter who they are, they're going to cause an accident. I disagree it's just the speeders.
--
You can have my sports car when you pry it from my cold dead hands.
--- Bad news for America, good news for Democrats
Good news for America, bad news for Democrats
I guess the solution will be to hook a logic probe upto this little box and figure out the signals so you could convince the thing you drive like "Joe Average". You'd have to add some randomness into it to make it realistic, but overall, make sure the mileage is consistent with what you drive for your commute and make it look like a realistic driver ( drive beween 60 & 70mph)
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
I'm an independent computer consultant, probably like a lot of other Slashdot readers. So, put your business hat on and consider this from that perspective.
Suppose you're bidding on a contract to upgrade/replace a computer system for a potential customer. In order to give a proper cost estimate, you'll need to know as much detail as possible about the requirements. Perhaps this would include something like the average number of transactions per day performed. If all the customer can do is say that there is "a bunch" of transactions, your estimate will be very approximate, and you'll have to pad it accordingly or add a large contingency factor.
However, if the customer could produce for you an automated log of all daily transaction counts for the last month, you would have a precise understanding of what to expect, and could estimate accordingly. This may result in a lower estimated cost, and increase your chances of winning the bid.
Essentially, this is what Progressive is doing - they are asking for more detailed information in an effort to win your continuing business. If you don't provide that information, that's fine... but then they will have to rely on a more approximate estimate of risk, and the quote they provide you with will likely be higher based on less precise information. If you're a prudent businessperson, you'd be trying to do the same thing whereever you can.
Slashdot is entertaining like pro wrestling is entertaining
There's nothing stopping you starting your own insurance company...
---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"
They give you the data before you send it in. I assume it would be pretty easy to rewrite the data in order for you to maximize your "discount."
But that would be wrong.
-DropIt!
Oh please :) Here's how it will work: Government will require you to have insurance (which in most states it does). Insurance companies won't insure a car WITHOUT the device.
A friend of mine from sweeden says, while marijuana is legal in sweeden, you can't get a job or car insurance if you use it, so you're effectively a non-citizen.
Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I'm already ahead of the curve. I ditched my car and started using public transportation and the ankle express because the automotive and insurance industries had already squeezed the last drop out of this turnip.
Sure, I walk more, and get derided by my coworkers, and have to put up with horrible commuting hours, and have to carry an umbrella every time I go somewhere (just in case), and get demeaning looks from everyone in society...
But it has nothing to do with social classes, or social engineering, or rich vs. poor, because ultimately it's my choice. No one is forcing me not to have a car. No one's forcing me to walk everywhere. I still get the same opportunities that everyone else gets. I have yet to be turned down by any hot chick who has subsequently been picked up by a "responsible citizen" who owns their own transportation. There are no hidden systems at play.
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
It's just like grocery store member cards, you start using them, you save right? Wrong, initially, maybe, but now, by using them, you're paying what you would have paid before the program existed and if you don't use the card you're hosed.
Same thing with this: You start out saving money, prices creep back up to normal. Those that refuse to submit to the program are hosed.
BTM
That was the turning point of my life--I went from negative zero to positive zero.
What are they thinking?
... or will their devices be rigged?
Not only is there obviously possible entrapment but what data exists that driving at the exact speed limit makes you a safer driver?
There are many other situations this will not cover: changing lanes without a turn signal, running lights, tail gaiting, driving *under* the speed limit (which can be just as unsafe), and drive-by shooting?
All of these could be more unsafe than going 10 MPH over the limit. Are they going to start monitoring that too? Will they forward high speeds to the police to fine you? What I would like to know is who will be monitoring the insurance agents' cars
If you donate to their pension fund and put that little sticker they send you on your car, they'll be more inclined to let you go. It's not the get out of ticket free card that being a cop is, but unless you were doing something radical or they're WAY under quota, you'll likely just get off with a warning.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
According to the local DMV (North Carolina), car insurance is actually mandatory. You just have to be able to pay in the event of a wreck. They do some sort of check into your ability to do so. Insurance is still highly reccomended.
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It would be no different than committing odometer fraud. Sure, it can be done, but it's cheating (used car buyers in one case, insurance companies in the other).
Tell that to the Sûreté du Québec rookie cop who killed 3 other officers while DUI on his first day on the job, in Trois-Rivières... He's not a cop anymore, and never will be again...
Since the OBDII interfcae is fairly standard, it seems like it would be easy enough to build an interceptor to plug in between the device and your OBD port that just mad sure it capped the reported speed at some realistic value, like 73...
The thing about the device that seems stupid to me is it can't tell what kind of roads you drive on. I make it a point to almost never take the highway, so in my case an average reported speed of 75 would make me quite a risk! But from the standpoint of the insurance company it would be just fine.
I image if they were smart they would also measure things like accelleration, and figure out if you are hitting the gas too hard - sure you might save 5% for a while but I'll bet they could build up a set of data that would let them really increase rates later based on all kinds of wierd things detected from your driving habits (like panic braking too often).
I would only hope that it would have accelerometers to detect weaving of the car, for those people that just can't seem to figure out where the lanes are...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
What people don't realize is that these little black boxes are already happening without people's consent. I work for a luxury car company, and this is standard. I should know. I'm the one that programs the replacements for when the originals breakdown. It has been for years. It's just a matter of time before it works it's way down to "low end" vehicles.
*slight crashing sound*
A few simple thoughts from a simple mind:
/.ers are welcome to continue driving 75 mph in residential areas.
1. In Minnesota, the test state, not all highways are posted at 70 mph. Using OBD II data, they will only know how fast you were going, and at what time. All you
2. Need to speed? Unplug the thing before those trips. The OBD connector is dead as a doornail when the car is shut off. Even if the thing does a continuity test, it's a very basic dongle to piece together.
3. If it can be read, it can be reverse engineered. Like we are usually victims of technology, right...
4. For a reasonable up front fee, I will help you find the names of other companies you can buy insurance from.
5. Speeding tickets are just a tax for going fast. This is just another part of the cost. Cowboy up, geek boy!
With the VW it is physically impossible to go that fast (without solid rocket bosters welded to it), so it's no big deal. Honestly I would MUCH rather it drove it self.
The Ducati...How can I say this...it is not possible to restrain it to the speed limit in the town I live in (mostly 30km which I mostly ignore).
Obviously I don't use this "progressive" insurance though but I think this sort of thing for everyday drivers is no big deal, how fast do you need to go to work and to the store? I can choose not use it on my Ducati :).
Additionally I most add I have lived in the US and for the love of all that is holy Somebody needs to teach y'all how to drive! ;-)
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
I know that in the USA, speed limits are different from europe. Where I live (Belgium), speed limit is 120km/h on highways. Practically everyone goes over that by a margin of 10km/h. Which is tolerated by cameras. I used to do it too, until we bought a new car, a renault traffic, which is a LOT bigger than our previous car, an opel tigra. The renault can do 150km/h easily, as did the tigra (shitcar BTW), but since you have a completely different view of traffic (it's a van), you feel speed diferently. Nowadays I drive 120km/h tops, and found out a few things :
:-)
- I consume 15% to 25% less fuel. Amazing isn't it ? This is mainly due to not constantly accelerating to 130-140 just to break again 1 minute later. My speed remains far more constant
- I get everywhere at the same time as i did when i drove faster. There is ZERO difference on average. I do Brussels-Ostend (150km) every week, and there's really no difference since i started driving slower.
- I feel safer, calmer and less stressed. I never thought that this 10km/h speed difference would make such a mental difference. I 've started listening to music again, since at 130-140km/h, i had to focus on traffic instead of music.
- the whole 'you have to drive along with the flow' thing is complete and utter bollocks. Traffic flows in blocks, that group themselves around a group of trucks who can't bypass eachother since they have speed limiters. Cars just move from block to block. The speeders wiggle their way thru these blocks a few % faster than the rest, and then pull up to 150km/h untill they reach the next block 10secs later. I just reach that block 12seconds later.
Honestly : just give it a try and drive slower. you'll notice that most of your prejudices are balooney.
Note : driving slower has one explicit effect : middle fingers from freaks who think their lives are so filled up, they really need those 10% they think they can shave off in traffic. Usually types who wash their car every week and thereby lose hours of time
When will I end this grieving ? When will my future begin ?
... 50% of every paycheck I get (after tax, etc), goes straight to insurance companies. Not giving me much else to live off of. I hate this. I only drive to and from work, I don't goof off, or do stupid shit. I just want to get back and fourth to work, and live happy. I can't stand having this tax on something that is now nesessary to live in this world. There is no way I could get back and foruth to work without my car. I havn't had an accident or wreck yet, and don't plan to. I'm only like 1-2 miles from work. I can't bike or walk it though, since the entire city is based around a highway that you get pulled over on for biking on or walking on.
Sig: I stole this sig.
FYI it's people like you that are part of the cause the tailgating, passing on the right, etc. If you would just move to the right and let people who want to go faster go by, part of the problem would dissipate. Of course, this doesn't always work, such as in high volume areas, but it's more often than not that when I am confronted with 3 lanes of solid cars, it's caused by people going the speed limit or under in each lane, with a stretch of open road ahead of them.
Also, at least in New Jersey, you are driving illegally if you fail to yield to a vehicle that wishes to pass.
While I have been known to exceed the speed limit, and in fact been cited for it on numerous occasions all of which are more than four years in the past because I have slowed down on the freeway (while speeding up almost everywhere else, amusingly) I strongly disagree with your apparent assignation of blame. Driving the actual speed limit should never put you in danger through YOUR actions. It puts you in danger through the actions of the assholes who are driving too fast for their abilities.
Allow me to clarify: I drive plenty fast on twisty roads. I accept that if I should drive up someone's ass in my little sports car, that I will bear the responsibility. Not only is that the law in California, but it also makes sense. If you are going too fast to see what is ahead of you, you are going too fast. As Nimoy said in Star Trek IV: Bring the Money Home, "I would accept that as an axiom." Consequently, when I believe that the road ahead looks sketchy, or my visibility is reduced too significantly due to tight turns (or whatever) I slow down. It is the only responsible thing to do.
I agree that it can be dangerous to drive slowly, but I think it's more annoying than dangerous. It's not the fault of the people driving slow, unless they're driving REALLY slow.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Since when is the velocity of my car, something which is directly observable externally, considered private? In't this a bit like saying to people, "Please don't look at me as I walk by. I don't want you to know where I am or whether I'm running."
Whether you're driving naked, provided it's not visible to other drivers, is your own business. What music you listen to, provided it's not audible from 50 feet away, is private (check your local laws for variations). The speed of your multiple-ton chunk of sharp metal, glass, and flammable liquid is not private.
Whatever Orwellian fantasy you may be indulging in probably falls short of what has already been true for years: "They" have been able to tell exactly where you are and what you are doing for a long time now. Most of us are too boring for it to matter. If you're going to be paranoid, do it properly.
Happiness is relative, Based upon the way we live.
btw does anyone know if these boxes could tell me my 1/4 mile times? It's too expensive to go to a track.
There are a number of boxes you can buy for that purpose: http://www.gtechpro.com/
That thought has crossed my mind often.
I travel the turnpike every weekday -- Exit 7A to Exit 1. A quick scan of my ezpass account confirms I'm averaging about 80mph along the 60 miles (going just slightly faster than the average...that's where I feel safest).
It's just not like McGreevey to overlook the millions in potential revenue, especially since there won't be many people voting for him again anyway.
..now where did that
having receipts checked when exiting a store
This isn't required. You can do what I do: Pay for your purchases, then walk AROUND the stupid exit line. When they try to stop you and say, "Sir, I need to check your receipt", just say, "No thanks!" and keep walking. If they touch you, press charges for assault (they won't; they almost certainly know better).
Once you've paid for your purchases, a private store employee has NO RIGHT to detain you. Period.
I do this at Best Buy all the time. Pisses them off, but treating me like a criminal pisses me off, too. I suppose management could tell me I'm no longer welcome there, but considering I've spent over $5k there this year alone, I somehow doubt they'd go that far.
California provides for self-insurance.
This is basically a 30k bond. If you don't want to pay an insurance company, you could self insure.
This would get you out of the insurance company trap. However your bank (if you have a loan) would require insurance above the state minimum, but if you've got a car loan, what are you doing with 30k in cash for a self-insurance bond?