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New Solution For Your Transistor BBQ
servantsoldier writes "There's a new solution for the transistor heat problem: Make them out of charcoal... The AP is reporting that Japanese researchers, led by Daisuke Nakamura of Toyota Central R&D Laboratories Inc., have discovered a way to use silicon carbide instead of silicon in the creation of transistor wafers. The Japanese researchers discovered that they can build silicon carbide wafers by using a multiple-step process in which the crystals are grown in several stages. As a result, defects are minimized. Other benefits are decreased weight and a more rugged material. The researchers say that currently only a 3" wafer has been produced and that a marketable product is at least six years away."
the text said "... that Japanese researchers, led by Daisuke Nakamura of Toyota Central R&D Laboratories Inc., ..."
..."
but i read "...that Japanese researchers, led by Duke Nukem of Toyota Central R&D Laboratories Inc.,
other than this, Great, if this works in practice well be having new smaller cpus for everything.
but im still waiting for a pda without screen, that uses my glasses as a screen.. but thats more of scifi than reality.
This may be modded as funny.. But realistically, think about this.
The amount of heat being generated by chips does not seem to be decreasing at all, and this material appears to be produced to be "heat resistant" instead of more efficient.
How long until your PC puts out enough heat that it would be economical to re-use that heat for a hot water tank, or for winter heating?
How long until we need special 240V plugs like electric stoves have for power?
I think that emphasis on more efficient chips is a better venture than heat resistant materials, as the whole heat byproduct of CPU's seems to be sprialling out of control.
Josh
Open Your Mind. Open Your Source.
Think knife-sharpener.
Silicon carbide is really hard stuff.
It's not quite diamond, but with a hardness of 9.25, you could use your SiC processor to grind real axes and not just figurative ones in flamewars.
Hirohito: Oh! You must have very big wafer!
Owner: Excuse me?! I was just asking you what you're up to with this manufacturing process!
Nothing! We are very simple people with very small wafer! Mr. Hosek's wafer is especially small!
Hosek: He he he! So small!
Hirohito: We cannot achieve much with so small wafer! But, you Americans! Wow! Wafer so big! SO BIG Wafer!
Owner: Well, I-I guess it is a pretty good size
There are two kinds of fool. One says, This is old, and therefore good. And one says, This is new, and therefore better.
From the article....
In an advance that could lead to lighter spacecraft and smarter cars, researchers have developed a new technique for producing a high-quality computer chip that is much more resistant to extreme conditions than the silicon found in most of today's electronics.
So a chip more resistant to extreme conditions is also somehow 'lighter' and 'smarter'...
A good step forward for science, but not for science journalism...
shooting is not too good for my enemies
Gives new meaning to "burning up your CPU". Better hope the non-techies never open up their machines...
Karma whorin' since 1999
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/RT1997/5000/5510neudec k2.htm
http://www.acreo.se/templates/Page____577.aspx
I just asked Google
Briquette's? A true geek would realise that the chunk charcoal overlord is vastly superior in flavor, heat, cleanup, and ability to lead the masses.
------- Sorry about the spelling, I suffer from two problems. Dyslexia makes it difficult to spell well, lazy makes it
Developments like this in Japan and other countries tell me the the US not losing its technological edge it has already lost it. Japan patents brand new tech like this while in the US we patent SUDO and 1 click shopping.
I can't wait!
If you've got the carbon, why bother with the silicon? Actually, I wonder what they use to "dope" diamond semiconductors?
0 5
http://www.eetimes.com/at/hpm/news/OEG20030822S00
Yes, but I still think water cooling is the way to go, personally.
I hear there's rumors on the Slashdots
The amount of heat being generated by chips does not seem to be decreasing at all ...
I disagree. I've just upgraded an Athlon XP 1800+ system to an Athlon64 3500+.
The new box runs around 20 degrees C cooler than the old one at idle and under heavy load; both use the supplied retail AMD heatsinks. I'm not using "Cool 'n Quiet" on the '64; it might take a bit off the idle temperature, but I don't see the point.
I live in Japan and work for a Japanese company. Trust me, stupid business process patents are not unique to the U.S. Our company has attempted (sometimes successfully) to patent some of the most obvious, blatant crap by tagging "online" onto it. AND WE'RE NOT EVEN A TECH COMPANY!!
In the event that we find out that someone else already HAS "invented" this idea, it is usually NTT (Nippon Telephone and Telegraph) which has also registered the hell out of a shit load of trademarks that it doesn't use.
And, over here, there are a lot of people worried that we've really lost our tech edge against China and Taiwan. To a certain extent, I think they're right. China and Taiwan used to be copiers, not innovators. But then again, so was Japan half a century ago. Recently, China and Taiwan have started innovating too. It should have been obvious that they "could" innovate, about 18 years ago when the first fake Nintendo consoles from Taiwan were found. They say over 80% of the circuitry, including the CPU, was original, and not a copy. (Then again, a lot of the fake Apple IIe machines back then were pretty original too, sometimes with features that weren't available on the real thing!)
Steve Jobs when asked what's next for the iPod:
:)
"You know, our next big step is we want it to make toast," Jobs answered. "I want to brown my bagels when I'm listening to my music."
Damn Steve, again, he saw this charcoal technology coming before anybody.
Yahh, hiii haaaaa! -Major Kong, from Dr. Strangelove
Silicon carbide is a very hard, brittle material with a very high melting point commonly used to make crucibles and high speed saw blades and drill bits.
Comparing this to charcol is like saying that Carbon Monoxide is the same thing as Oxygen because CO contains oxygen.
Jason
Before, Taiwan (or Japan) would do just fine by making the same thing cheaper, now that doesn't quite cut it any more.
... I'd say that overall, the ability to innovate is inversely proportional to well-being of individuals.
Necessity
Money-hungry folks from India and China should out-innovate equally smart people from other countries, just because they're trying harder.
In some ways, I think social injustice is perhaps a motivating factor, too - unless you come up with something new, it's hard to make it to the top by hard work alone.
No you won't. Can you imagine Compaq, Dell or IBM voluntarily producing a PC which never wears out?
There are also huge potential benefits for rad-hard communications satellites, where cooling is a major problem (radiation only.)
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
So the major PC makers wouldn't want to make products that never fail and never require spare parts, except due to catastrophe?
Producing spares isn't their primary focus, and every RMA for stupid broken stuff is costly. A laptop that exceeds the 3 year warranty without breaking would be music to their ears, and consumers.
Your logic is flawed. It isn't "wearing out" that makes people buy new computers, it's the fact that it's too slow or old. Most computers end up surplused, just check the HUGE secondary market that feeds many multi-million dollar surplus businesses. There are a handful of long time surplus shops in Silicon valley that have derived a long history from the computing industry around here.
It's very nice that SiC can withstand high temperatures and is very hard, but are these the most important features of a semiconductor material?
I would be more interested in band gap voltage, electron/hole mobility etc.
Who needs a chip that can run hot when it cannot run fast?
Maybe for specialized hardened aplications like space, but I don't see these being used for mainstream applications.
linky
Ha you lot, you think this will be used for CPU's.
It wont. Silicon/Germanium is fastest you can get at teh mo (until they can dope diamond)
SiC will be used in hi-temp areas (eg aircraft engines) or where they want it to run hotter to up the current handling (ie power electronics)
at the mo I am limited to 800A at 1200V for an IGBT and that is 8IGBT die in parallel.the die is limited to 100A at 125C.
When I get SiC IGBT I will be able to pass 800A thorugh a single die and let the die heat up to 300C.
This will mean that expensive heavy heatsinks will be able to shrink
SiC will NOT be use for hi speed CPU!!!
duplicate /. article incoming ... estimated period of arrival: 6 years later .. please update your calendar for Aug2010
"There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Heat resistance isn't the point -- current IC's don't melt, they get trashed via difusion processes that will still be there in SiC.
The advantage of SiC is substantially enhanced (2x) thermal conductivity vs. Si. This makes it easier to get heat out of the chip, allowing it to run cooler at any given heat production rate.
Just because your CPU runs cooler does not neccesarily mean it generates less heat. To do a proper test, use the heatsink supplied for use with your Athlon 1800+ and pop it on your Athlon64...
It's possible all you've proved is that coolers are getting better quicker than processors are getting hotter...
The good news, your graphics card can be overclocked to 2 Terahertz, and still remain operational at over 650C.
The bad news, is that the aluminum casing of your PC will melt at this temperature, so your PC will need te be built from titanium.
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
Also, please note that the junction temperatures you quote are maxima. You will not get good life at high temperatures with silicon but, more importantly, the ability to handle pulses and voltage drops as junction temperature rises. I suggest you look at the SOAR curves for a few power devices to see what I mean.
As for the rest of your remarks, it's clear you are not a serious power electronics designer. No-one says the low level stages have to run that hot (though anyone who has listened to a good tube amp would probably argue that you are exaggerating the importance of shot noise). The big benefit of higher junction temperatures is that heatsinks, in particular, can be smaller, especially if the hot air is vented straight out of the casing. This makes the overall size of the equipment smaller.
Also, don't forget that power amplification is not synonymous with hi-fi. There are many applications for power audio devices (PA systems, for instance) that require considerable audio power but only moderate quality, and the applications for compact RF devices are continually expanding. For instance, one possible goal for a high power SiC device would be a replacement for the magnetrons of microwave ovens, possibly even creating a market for small solar or wind powered microwave ovens that would be useful both for backpackers and for 3rd world countries.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
Yes, silicon carbide and water cooling will get the heat out of the CPU faster.
The problem still remains that a metric buttload of heat is produced, and that it comes out of the electricity bill. Sometimes twice: in the summer you also pay for the air conditioning, since that shiny new CPU is heating the room some more.
I think it's getting ludicrious.
The Prescott is already over 100 W, and Intel apparently plans dual core versions. Whoppee for 200+ W CPUs. NVidia 6800 Ultras are rated for 120 W, and they're hyping SLI setups now. Yep, _two_ graphics cards, if just 120W worth of hot air blowing off the back of the case wasn't enough.
Add hard drives, motherboard, and the PSUs own inefficiency, and you're already looking at 1000W worth of heat for the whole computer. That's already like a space heater.
In fact, go ahead and turn a space heater on near your desk in the summer, and you've got a pretty good approximation of what the next generation of computers promises to be like. Now picture some 4 of them in the same room, at the office.
And it's raising exponentially. Carbide and water cooling will only help them get further along that curve.
And I'll be damned if I'm thrilled at the prospect.
This also brings the problem of even more fans. Even with water cooling, you then have to get the heat out of the water. It still means fans. More heat will just mean more fans, bigger fans, or faster fans. Or all the above.
And I'm not thrilled at the prospect of the return of the noisy computer either. I can jolly well do without the machine sounding like a jumbo jet. Especially when I'm watching a DVD or such, I can do without having to turn the volume sky high just to be able to hear what they're saying. And at the office I can do without four noisy hovercrafts in the same room.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Nah, you just use a diamond saw. Same as for the silicon wafers. It's conceptually the same thing as a very thin diamond tipped grinding wheel, and it grinds a cut through the material. You can also use a diamond encrusted wire as a saw, like, erm, this one *holds one up*, but they are much slower, and only really good as hand saws, or for chopping thin sheets [0].
It's going to be a little slower, as SiC is about twice as hard as silicon, but that's not going to slow it down that much. Diamond saws are also used to chop up boules of sapphire and ruby, which are of similar hardness to SiC (a little softer), and also diamond (harder), so it's no big techical problem.
Or, a laser. A nice big excimer laser would slice it neater than a diamond saw. With the improved surface texture after cutting, the decrease is polishing coupled with the increase in hardness might make it worth while. Probably not, though.
[0] I use my saw for cutting rocks for lapidary purposes, principly quatrz of various sorts.