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NIST Unveils Chip-scale Atomic Clock

Posted by CmdrTaco on from the and-it-fits-in-the-oh-never-mind dept.

grumling writes "The heart of a minuscule atomic clock, believed to be 100 times smaller than any other atomic clock has been demonstrated by scientists at the Commerce Department's National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), opening the door to atomically precise timekeeping in portable, battery-powered devices for secure wireless communications, more precise navigation and other applications. "

49 of 172 comments (clear)

  1. timing is extremely important by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    especially when you're trying to get first psot

    1. Re:timing is extremely important by quantaman · · Score: 3, Funny

      Spelling however, is entirely optional.

      --
      I stole this Sig
  2. Useful by AKAImBatman · · Score: 3, Funny

    opening the door to atomically precise timekeeping in portable, battery-powered devices for secure wireless communications, more precise navigation and...

    Video games!

    --
    Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
  3. Yeah... by dmayle · · Score: 4, Funny

    Yeah, so I can keep time 5 minutes early more precisely than ever before...

  4. Best chance ever to get your story posted by Udo+Schmitz · · Score: 2, Funny
    Today CmdrTaco will post any story he gets, just to make the iMac-fake-picture-hoax-debacle go as far down the page it can get :)

    And that doesn't mean that I don't find this atomic clock thingie absolutely fascinating ...

    [Looking at strange spot on the wall]

    What was I talking about?

  5. OK, so when do I get one in my PC... by Atrax · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ... so my clock doesn't drift by like five minutes a day, necessitating a daily ping to the USNO time servers? anyone?

    --
    Screw you all! I'm off to the pub
    1. Re:OK, so when do I get one in my PC... by Gerald · · Score: 3, Informative

      So why don't you just use NTPd or OpenNTPd? And why aren't you using pool.ntp.org instead of picking on the poor, overloaded NIST servers?

    2. Re:OK, so when do I get one in my PC... by Artifakt · · Score: 3, Informative

      There are about a jillion clock programs for windows that call the NIST clocks on a regular schedule of your choice and adjust the PC. Most of them are freeware. Some of them work with a clock display on desktop, some with the existing clock in the systray. I recomend Beatnik, at http://www.somedec.com/ free, skinnable, and stable, and no I don't have any connection to the author except using it and some of his other freeware. However, the OP apparently doesn't want to do something like that. I confess, I'm not sure why. If he has a box whose clock drifts by 5 min a day and that once daily ping is eating up substantial time on his connection, the answer is to get a new box or a faster connection. If my clock naturally drifted by 5 minutes a day, I'd want to correct about every 4 hours or so, or maybe I'd just immediatly try replacing the Mobo battery in case that was a sign it was going stale. Maybe I'm missing something there, and he just doesn't want to go through the process manually, but it sounds like he's more wanting to not do it at all.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
  6. At last... by Aardpig · · Score: 3, Informative

    ...Netgear can start manufacturing routers that don't totally fuck the NTP server at University of Wisconsin, Madison.

    --
    Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
    1. Re:At last... by haruchai · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How did this get modded up so highly? Yes, it was a boneheaded decision by Netgear engineers to hardcode an NTP server address but they did work with the University and release a firmware fix in a respectable timeframe.
      Unfortunately, without a way to force an upgrade, the NTP flooding may continue for years. The real lesson here, which in this day and age should be second nature, is that HARDCODING is BAD!!
      Especially, hardcoding ONE source that will be used by hundreds of thousands of clients.
      The engineer(s) responsible should have been bitchslapped once per second for every flawed router.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
  7. Great for GPS by DustMagnet · · Score: 5, Interesting

    With a atomic clock in a GPS you no longer need to solve for time, so you can get the same quality position with one less satellite. There are times where this could make a huge difference.

    --
    'SBEMAIL!' is better than a goat!!
    1. Re:Great for GPS by Detritus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The Navy has been using atomic clocks for decades. Much of the technology in GPS can be traced back to early Navy programs for satellite assisted navigation. When you launch an ICBM from a submarine, you need a very accurate fix on the position of the submarine. Atomic clocks are also as timing references for secure communications links.

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
    2. Re:Great for GPS by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There will ALWAYS be a need for an outside reference time source.

      Whilst the device will keep track of time with an accuracy of 1 second in 300 years, what it can't do is keep time without power.

      The effect means a video recorder still shows 00:00, just a lot more accurately than before.

      --
      liqbase :: faster than paper
    3. Re:Great for GPS by Rich0 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Ok, first a clarification, and then a possible alternative implementation of GPS with fewer limitations if you can assume the receiver knows the time:

      First - if you have only two satellites in the present system, the solution to the distance equation is approximately a hyperbola (it would be exactly one for a flat earth). Three satellites gives you three hyperbolas, which intersect at one point. (Remember, a hyberbola is the set of points where the difference between the distance from the point to two foci is a constant.)

      However, you don't have to use difference in time to implement a GPS-like system. A more direct solution is measuring absolute time to arrival for each satellite signal. This requires an atomic clock in the receiver - which is why they don't generally do it this way. If you measure absolute time to arrival you get a sphere around each satellite you receive signal from. With two satellites the intersection is a circle, but only two points of that circle lie on the surface of the earth. If you have even a remote idea of where you are (within 1000 miles or so), you should be able to figure out which one you're at. since the two points might literally be separated by more than 1000-2000 miles.

      So, the two satellite system might have some use - especially if the software is smart and keeps track of state. For instance, if you are a bomb decending to a target you would use as many satellites as you can - probably 3-4 most of the time. However, if you lost all but 2 as you got close to the ground and some jamming, you can probably bet that you didn't change position much, and so you can pick the closest solution and still have some useful guidance data. So, an atomic clock would be useful for more accurate GPS...

    4. Re:Great for GPS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative
      The Navy has been using atomic clocks for decades. Much of the technology in GPS can be traced back to early Navy programs for satellite assisted navigation. When you launch an ICBM from a submarine, you need a very accurate fix on the position of the submarine. Atomic clocks are also as timing references for secure communications links.

      In fact, the entire history of accurate time can be attributed to naval navigation.

    5. Re:Great for GPS by UnknowingFool · · Score: 2, Interesting
      With a atomic clock in a GPS you no longer need to solve for time, so you can get the same quality position with one less satellite. There are times where this could make a huge difference.

      Say what? GPS satellites have always had atomic clocks but receivers have had to rely on quartz.

      Multiple signals are always needed by GPS for positioning regardless of timing accuracy. It's called triangulation. The more signals you have the better the accuracy due to timing differentials. Most GPS receivers use at least four satellites. Three are for positioning. The fourth is used to correct for timing differences. Some receivers boast of using 6 for better accuracy. Now if you have a better clock in a GPS receiver, it means you can find your position with fewer satellites and the accuracy of your location is better. Most GPS receivers always have an accuracy of 6-12 meters with some good ones in the 3-5 meter range. Using atomic clocks, GPS receivers could reduce that distance to feet.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    6. Re:Great for GPS by 6800 · · Score: 2, Informative

      The quality of clock in the GPS receiver makes a big difference in accuracy of the results. This is true both for navigation and timekeeping types. In any case, the time of the gps receiver must first be set to the time from the sat's but with corrections both for the delay to the receivers position and for the true gps time offset (around 13 seconds, if my memory is correct). Then based on the time held by the receiver, the position can be determined by the delay measurments of and position information in the signals. In the case of the 'position hold' mode used in timekeeping receivers, the time can be more accurately derived and produced. This is why some timekeeping receivers have options for the oscilators ranging from cheap (Motorola Oncore) to quartz to ovanized quartz to rubidium (cheap atomic) and beyond.

  8. The untapped potential for customer products... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...has finally been unleashed! Home users will be able to measure the relativistic effects of using table saws and ice makers.

  9. Re:ARE YOU NUTS?! by physicsboy500 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Wouldn't it radioactivate you or something???

    Cesium is a stable isotope and is not radioactive. The only problem I see with a wrist watch containing Cesium is accidentally jumping in the pool with it or being caught in the rain.

    "hey man... watch my tripple sommersault dive"

    BOOM.

    --
    The original generic sig.
  10. This had to come by say · · Score: 4, Insightful
    After all, an atomic timekeeper is just that: atomic. It only needs to measure the radiation of a cesium atom. So the core of the clock is simple to make. All the measuring equipment, OTOH, has been huge.

    But it's only natural that this becomes smaller. Give the rich part of the world ten years, and we're all spending our time wearing atomic _and_ digital watches.

    Interestingly, this could affect our lifestyle. The more synchronized timepieces become, doing stuff in sync and on time gets more feasible. But that also lowers the acceptance for being late and inaccurate. And I know that I always come a few minutes late to every appointment.

    Will people start yelling at me for coming only seconds late? Will the unspoken five-minute courtesy time ("the meeting starts at 2pm" really means "2:05pm") disappear? Will I become more stressful because of all this accuracy?

    So, while this seems to be a step forward for mankind, it does not necessarily create more happiness. Just like an entire host of new inventions.

    What bothers me with this is that it is not really useful in a wristwatch (Yes I know - they aren't making it for wristwatches yet - but just wait!). But because everyone else has one, I'll be forced to get one as well. Just like the cellular phone. And then it starts affecting my life. Scary.

    --
    Roses are #FF0000, violets are #0000FF, all my base are belong to you
    1. Re:This had to come by physicsboy500 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Clarification, Cesium is a stable isotope and deos not emit radiation. It resonates naturally at microwave frequencies which is the oscilation that the atomic clock measures.

      --
      The original generic sig.
    2. Re:This had to come by Ronald+Dumsfeld · · Score: 2, Informative
      After all, an atomic timekeeper is just that: atomic. It only needs to measure the radiation of a cesium atom. So the core of the clock is simple to make. All the measuring equipment, OTOH, has been huge.
      One Cesium atom? Radiation?

      A Cesium clock operates by exposing the Cesium-133 isotope to microwaves and measuring the frequency of the emitted spectral line. If you were measuring atomic decay and using one atom you'd get one decay. Then it'd most likely no longer be Cesium.
      --
      Where's the Kaboom?
      There's supposed to be an Earth-shattering Kaboom.
    3. Re:This had to come by Guppy06 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Give the rich part of the world ten years, and we're all spending our time wearing atomic _and_ digital watches."

      The hard part isn't necessarily keeping an eye on the atom, it's all the math needed to approximate what atomic time should be.

      Over the years since the adoption of the atomic second, all sorts of adjustments and clarifications were made to the definition, that include (among others) accounting for blackbody radiation (it's "supposed" to be at 0 K), special relativity (they're "supposed" to be stationary to the observer), and general relativity (gotta remember gravity and centripetal acceleration from earth's spin at your latitude). All this must be done in a relatively controlled environment so that you know what numbers to put into the equations.

      Throw that all in with the effects that swinging your arm will have while you walk, and putting one on your wrist sounds extraneous since you'll still have to correct it from time to time to get that accuracy you're supposed to have with an atomic timepiece. The correcting will probably have to be done by GPS time transfer, which is a lot more complicated than simply asking your GPS receiver what time it is. The light lag involved is very signifigant when you're counting 9,192,631,770 "ticks" per second.

      My radio-controlled quartz watch, when allowed to update itself every 3 days, is at worst accurate to the nearest second, and I've never seen it get anywhere near that far off. If I concentrate a little I can watch deciseconds tick by, but centiseconds are too much of a blur for a mere mortal like me. Why bother with nanoseconds?

      Put one in a computer? Sure. Network validation schemes like Kerberos would benifit greatly by knowing that all the workstations in the domain are all synchronized to a disgustingly high degree. But quartz crystals continue to be good enough for even high-end GPS receivers, so why would I need better on my wrist?

  11. Does wifi/cellular marginalize this? by theluckyleper · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I've always imagined that the proliferation of wireless communications would eventually replace the need for having any sort of portable timing devices... I mean, my computer updates its clock from some atomic NTP server. A wifi clock could do the same.

    Why carry an atomic clock, when you can talk to an even more accurate atomic clock, through the air? Although I guess the few ms of lag between the request and response might introduce too much error for some applications?

    --
    Visit the Game Programming Wiki!
    1. Re:Does wifi/cellular marginalize this? by interiot · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Yes, even normal users sometimes need more precise clocks. The most obvious case is GPS mentioned earlier in these posts. Quote:
      • Currently, the GPS system provides time to the general public with uncertainties measured in nanoseconds.

      GPS receivers are required to synchronize very closely to the atomic clocks in the GPS sattelites in order to calculate position... they have to measure how far RF signals (travelling at the speed of light) have gone. GPS receivers (and the article's atomic clock) are more than a million times more precise than "a few ms of lag".

    2. Re:Does wifi/cellular marginalize this? by Detritus · · Score: 2, Interesting
      It would be a better frequency reference, which is important for the accuracy of microwave frequency synthesizers used in transmitters and receivers.

      Less phase noise, which improves overall system performance.

      A more accurate timing reference would make it easier for spread-spectrum systems to acquire and maintain lock on received signals.

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
  12. Could this be the end of NTP? by feronti · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I mean, if every device has its own atomic clock, the only time you'd have to synchronize them would be when you bring them up, unless you were doing some kind of scientific work that requires ultra-accurate timekeeping. Most other applications (I'm thinking Kerberos, remote logging, etc) would only need to be synchronized to the second (or even less) to be useful.

  13. Re:Great for GPS... and other things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It matters not just for navigation although that is the first time I really noticed how accurate time was getting easier and easier.

    Back in the seventies, our boss showed a video about him sailing across the Atlantic on a small sailboat. There was a shot in the cabin showing his digital watch (a new thing then) swinging back and forth. He pointed that out and said, "That's our chronometer." So at that point you could have the equivalent of a ship's chronometer (worth thousands) for less than a hundred bucks! I'm not even sure if a ship's chronometer would have worked on a small boat that rocked back and forth that violently.

    As atomic clocks became generally available, they enabled faster communications because it was no longer necessary to send as much clock information along with the signal.

    Thus far, cheaper accurate time has enabled us to do things that we couldn't before. On the other hand, I'm not prepared to guess what that would be this time.

  14. GPS Devices by KB1GHC · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This device will be excellent for Global Positioning Systems.

    GPS works like this:
    every GPS satellite has an atomic clock, your GPS reciver calculates all the difforences in time and position of the GPS satellites, and based on knowing the distance from each satellite, is able to calculate where you are. Currently, GPS recievers have Quartz clocks that are constantly kept snycrenized by the attomic clocks in the satellites.

    now quartz clock accuracy is nowhere near attomic clock accuracy, so this will make GPS recievers much more accurate. Even though GPS accuracy is already better than 10 feet/3 meters

  15. Not only video games by Pan+T.+Hose · · Score: 4, Funny

    "opening the door to atomically precise timekeeping in portable, battery-powered devices for secure wireless communications, more precise navigation and..." Video games!

    Not only video games. I don't know when, I don't know how, but I am sure that eventually one day someone will somehow use is for pornography...

    --
    Sincerely,
    Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
    "Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
  16. BAD advice. Do NOT do this. by vadim_t · · Score: 3, Informative

    That's a very good way of getting blocked at firewall level. It's rather stupid too, since if you need so much precision just use NTP instead.

    It is a wrong use of ntpdate as well. Its point is to set the time to the correct one at startup, since ntpd only makes gradual corrections and won't make time go backwards for example to avoid breaking things.

    So, configure ntpdate to run once at boot, then start ntpd to keep it in sync.

  17. Re:ARE YOU NUTS?! by kfg · · Score: 5, Funny

    I don't get it... Would it make a chain reaction???

    No. It would make a perfectly normal, everyday exothermic chemical reaction.

    Cesium FAQ

    Shoudn't it be illegal to wear???!!!

    If atoms are outlawed only outlaws will have atoms.

    KFG

  18. Re:Atomic clock? by UnknowingFool · · Score: 4, Informative
    Actually, by definition, something atomic is very small.

    Most of the time that is true but in this case, an atomic clock has a very precise meaning in scientific instruments. It is a clock that counts the vibrations of atoms to determine time intervals. Accoring to SI units a second is

    a fundamental unit of time in all measuring systems and the SI base unit of time. The name simply means that this unit is the second division of the hour, the minute being the first. The second was defined as 1/86 400 mean solar day until astronomers discovered that the mean solar day is actually not constant (see day). The definition was then changed to 1/86 400 of the mean solar day 1900 January 1. Since we can't go back and measure that day any more, this wasn't a real solution to the problem. In 1967, scientists agreed to define the second as that period of time which makes the frequency of a certain radiation emitted by atoms of cesium-133 equal to 9 192 631 770 hertz (cycles per second). In other words, if we really want to measure a second, we count 9 192 631 770 cycles of this radiation. This definition allows scientists to reconstruct the second anywhere in the world with equal precision.

    Up until now atomic clocks like the ones used by NIST were large pieces of equipment. They were highly accurate but not very portable. Before, merchanical watches would lose seconds a day. With the use of quartz in electronic watches that dropped to about a second every 2 months. This lowers that bar even further. I'm not sure for what that level of precision could be used.

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  19. Another interesting home networking gadget by starbird · · Score: 3, Interesting

    When can I buy a netgear networkable home atomic clock box? Plug it in to your network, and use it to update the times on all your systems, instead of pinging NTP servers.

    Or put it on a pci card, I can just put it in my router box.

  20. Checklist by UnknowingFool · · Score: 4, Funny

    Cell phone with web surfing: $150
    Unlimited web surfing option on cell plan: $10/month
    Cell phone with atomic clock and web surfing (future): $200
    The ability to snipe someone on eBay for that powder blue Elvis jumpsuit: priceless

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  21. NTP by Detritus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you run a full NTP client on your PC, it will compensate for the drift caused by the el cheapo crystal oscillator. By characterizing the drift, it can correct for it, even if you don't have a permanent or reliable Internet connection. It's like a software version of the trimmer capacitor that is used to adjust the frequency of a crystal oscillator.

    --
    Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
    1. Re:NTP by AnotherBlackHat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      the drift caused by the el cheapo crystal oscillator.


      Even the "el cheapo" crystal oscillators are guaranteed accurate to better than 1 cycle per 100,000.
      PC clocks drift by more than 1 second a day because of poor software, not poor hardware

      -- less is better.
  22. Gravity by Anonymous+Writer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Since atomic clocks can be used to measure effects of gravity, it would be interesting to see how mass producing atomic clock chips could be used to create maps of gravity, seeing how they can be used to reveal geological information.

  23. *true* atomic wrist watches are available now by wayne · · Score: 4, Funny

    First Atomic Clock Wristwatch

    --
    SPF support for most open source mail servers can be found at libspf2.
  24. Portable Interferometers, light field recorders? by mattr · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This sounds amazing. IANA astrophysicist but it seems amateurs could do some real very long baseline interferometry with these things like the VLBA does.

    It also puts military-level technology again into public hands, this seems pretty dangerous - high school kids's satellites could enable terrorist missile navigation.. oh well I guess this is inevitable.

    Perhaps someone experienced could provide some input into the kinds of things this would make possible?

    I'm wondering if it would enable:

    - distributed seti, heck distributed lots of things.. monitoring of airspace anyone?
    - precise geolocation similarly for vlba? If you can shoot the sun and have a compass, should be able to solve for own location?
    - distributed measurement of environment for atmospheric simulations i.e. on ships at sea to gather wind vectors?
    - high-efficiency use of wireless spectrum, maybe also data transmission in noisy environments?

    from the faq, "atoms are also excellent sensors". Would this enable:
    - teraherz scanners (well maybe it isn't that fast, only 9 GHz) and doppler analyzers
    - portable detectors of acceleration, gravity, relativistic effects, sonar, ..what?
    - also one manufacturer I remember had a very interesting application of very short radio pulses that could be used to make virtual barriers I think the military was interested in it.. Until there page was taken down..

    Also I'm intrigued by the latest computer graphics research into structured light and recording of light fields with distributed cameras. It would seem that an audience with a lot of handycams and these chips could be producing an extremely interesting record of say a sporting event. A camera with a few of these chips might be quite useful.

    What kind of things would be possible with off the shelf hardware and a couple of these chips?

    Would these enable casual interferometry in day or night?

    On the downside I saw a $10 spam sandwich by Dean and Deluca in their Shibuya Station (Tokyo) store yesterday. So some people can already make enough trouble without advanced technology perhaps. Still, the ultimate geek toy? (not the spam.. the clock)

  25. My own nuclear powered watch! by Chemisor · · Score: 2, Funny

    Her: Hey, that's a cool watch!
    Him: No babe; it's not just cool. It is a nuclear powered watch; the most powerful watch in the business!
    Her: Uhh... So you're a mutant?

  26. Re:Not everybody has permanent connection! by vadim_t · · Score: 4, Informative

    You still can do it.

    Just run ntpdate when you connect instead of on boot. And kill ntpd before disconnecting. You can do this easily on Linux. On Windows I heard some programs exist to do this as well.

    This is not about broadband arrogance anyway. ntpd uses much fewer server resources than ntpdate every second. In fact, many public ntp server administrators often complain about that every hour at :00 minutes they get a ntp version of a slashdotting because people stick ntpdate in crontab.

    There are many NTP servers that are free to access out there. Please keep them that way by observing a simple netiquette.

  27. Re:ARE YOU NUTS?! by SEWilco · · Score: 3, Funny

    Thanks to anti-nuke propaganda, "atomic clock" might cause marketing problems. Watch for some other phrase to appear.

  28. Re:ARE YOU NUTS?! by SEWilco · · Score: 2, Funny
    A pea sized ball of cesium thrown into a full bathtub has been described to me as able to produce a 6 foot fireball.

    Note to self: Get larger bathtub.
    Note to self: For process to do above, see above.

  29. No resonant cavity? by kgp · · Score: 2, Informative
    Their main page is:

    All the [published] papers are here in PDF form.

    The one thing I can't figure out is how they make a resonant cavity this small ... they obviously have some way around it.

    Others have been asking what's the use as one of their papers says:

    In particular, there has been much recent interest in highly miniaturized atomic clocks ~volume ,1 cm ) for various military
    and civilian applications, including antijam global positioning, and synchronization of encryption keys and communications networks.

    If you know the time precisely you can lock up to the long frame encoded GPS signal without needing CA (more vulnerable to jamming).
  30. Re:Not everybody has permanent connection! by mamba-mamba · · Score: 2, Informative

    There are many NTP servers that are free to access out there. Please keep them that way by observing a simple netiquette.

    Read about DNS round robin sharing of voluntary ntp servers:
    http://www.pool.ntp.org

    MM
    --

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    By including this sig, the copyright holders of this work or collection unreservedly place it in the public domain.
  31. Battery operated? Not likely. by unix_hacker · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The story claims that this device pulls 75 mw and that it can be run on batteries. Assuming a 3V system, that's 25 mA of current. If one if these was in a typical portable device with a 750 mAH battery, it would last for 30 hours. Less, of course, if you actually turned on the device. Basically your battery would go dead in a day or so even with the device turned off.

    For reference, real time clock chips that are used in portable electronic devices today pull about 3 microwatts of current -- almost 10,000 times less than this device.

  32. After the Little War we'll all have one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...A lifeclock flower implanted in the palm of our left hand.

  33. Re:Not everybody has permanent connection! by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If these chips get cheap then every ISP will be able to run its own time server, routers will start coming with them, et cetera. In fact I find it highly likely that they will even replace the real time clock circuit on high end motherboards, it would be an extremely desirable piece of functionality on a server board, along with an embedded watchdog timer.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"