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MST3K Rightsholders Sue Over Theater Commentary

Posted by timothy on from the no-that-is-not-your-style-because-it-is-ours dept.

An anonymous reader writes "How can people who parody people sue people who parody them? Mr. Sinus is being sued by Best Brains Inc. the owners of the rights to Mystery Science Theatre 3000 because they are using a name/format that is too similar to their own. Here is the story." Evil thought: Apple should include a "three silhouettes yakking on merged soundtrack" mode in iMovie.

32 of 312 comments (clear)

  1. Um, because. by MoxCamel · · Score: 4, Informative
    How can people who parody people sue people who parody them?

    That's an easy one. Because the people who are being sued are not parodying them. They're blatantly using the MST3k formula. At one point they even called the show "Mister Sinus Theater 3000." They also tried to license rights to MST3k. They knew what they were doing. Duh.

    Now, can we get back to feeling sorry for people that steal music please?

    1. Re:Um, because. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      How can people who parody people sue people who parody them?

      Can we parody people who sue us? It might be fun to get a group together and taunt lawyers in court. It would probably make jury duty more fun, too.

    2. Re:Um, because. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Now, can we get back to feeling sorry for people that steal music please?

      I know what you mean! My cousin downloaded the mp3s for Metallica's latest album, and now nobody else can listen to it.

    3. Re:Um, because. by Fnkmaster · · Score: 5, Interesting
      They aren't suing for the parody in the usual sense (with respect to copyrighted material), they are suing for trademark infringement. Parody is an affirmative defense for trademark infringement, but it's apparently very narrow in scope, more so than the copyright infringement defense.


      This isn't such a clear cut case - are they really trying to parody Mystery Science Theater 3000 or are they trying to sell tickets to their live show which uses a similar format and trade off of the MS3TK brand name?


      So as far as I can tell, as long as they don't use a name that is deceptively similar to "Mystery Science Theater 3000" or "MST3K" they are probably fine. "Mister Sinus" or "Mister Sinus Theater" is probably still deceptively similar. Nobody is trying to stop them from doing their show under some other name. So... they would have to convince a judge that they are really making a parody of MST3K itself, AND that what they do does not carry a substantial chance of being confused with the original (i.e. something endorsed by the original company), AND that their use of adult material does not run a substantial risk of harming the business of the MST3K people.


      Alright, now back to our normal business of feeling sorry for people who steal music.

    4. Re:Um, because. by Gooba42 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's the JibJab argument about the definition of parody in a copyright sense.

      A parody is a derivative work which pokes fun at the original work. If this was making fun of MST3k then it is a parody. Since it is only imitating MST3k rather than parodying it, they have grounds on which to sue.

      --
      I just found out there's no such thing as the real world. It's just a lie you've got to rise above. - John Mayer
    5. Re:Um, because. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, dumbass, instead no one can:
      1) Go ask to be licensed by some guys to do the same thing they were doing *and* doing it in the same way *and* use almost the exact same way
      2) get turned down
      3) go ahead and do it anyway and just hope no one will notice.

      IF you were to *read* the (brief!) article, you would note the plantiffs just want the Mister Sinus guys to not use the Mister Sinus 3000 style name. It doesn't seem like such a big deal to me.

      People can still make fun of movies all they want--just don't call yourself MST3K without permission. (Unless, perhaps if you really *are* parodying them... which is not what the Mister Sinus guys are doing (apparently... although perhaps they'll claim different in court, if it gets to court).)

      Yes. I *am* an anonymous coward.

    6. Re:Um, because. by ePhil_One · · Score: 4, Informative
      Seems to me it's the name AND format Best Brains is complaining about-

      To paraphrase from the article:

      "All we want is for them to stop using our name"

      IANAL, but I'm pretty sure if they don't defend their trademark, they lose it. And if they license to this group they'll be diluting the brand, since they can't guarantee the quality of humor, there's no mad scientists, no sketches, etc. In other words, it's not MST3k, it's MST3k-like.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisted little posts, all alike.
    7. Re:Um, because. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      My cousin downloaded the mp3s for Metallica's latest album, and now nobody else can listen to it.

      Please thank your cousin on my behalf. The world is a better place because of him.

    8. Re:Um, because. by Mattcelt · · Score: 5, Informative

      Did you even RTFA? The MST3K owners don't even want them to stop doing the show - they just want them to use a different name, one that isn't so close to the original!

      This isn't about copyright AT ALL - it's about trademark infringement, which is a wholly different beast!

    9. Re:Um, because. by Dun+Malg · · Score: 4, Informative
      BTW, didn't the original guy who did this show get screwed by rightsholders?

      Apparently not. From the official MST3K site: (boldface added by me)

      Q: Why did Joel leave MST3K?
      A: Hodgson, who had created the series and labored on it ceaselessly for five years, asked off the show, pleading burnout. In the press release announcing his departure, Hodgson summed it up by saying:

      "It's time for me to hang up my red jump suit and move behind the camera. Besides, there's an old show business adage I once heard Adam West say: 'Stay in the same costume and before you know it, you end up signing pictures at an R.V. show.' Maybe it was Clayton Moore, now that I think of it."

      Q: When he left the show, didn't they say that Joel was going to continue working behind the scenes? But that never happened. Why?
      A: Yes, the press release about Joel's departure did say that Joel would "remain a member of the MST3K writing team and...also direct several episodes." Best Brains staffers later said that was the intention, but, as they tell it, almost immediately Joel got an opportunity to work on some other projects in Los Angeles, and he plunged into work on them. He soon was working full-time there on these other projects, and found there was no time to return to Minneapolis. Eventually, Joel had only a financial stake in the series, but no longer offered creative input.

      Q: I've heard rumors that Joel was fired and that there was bad blood between him and the rest of the cast and crew.
      A: Joel could not be fired. He was the show's creator. No one could have made him leave if he hadn't wanted to go.
      Although he covered as best he could during his time on the show, those that know him well say Joel is a shy person who was very uncomfortable in front of the camera, and was even more uncomfortable with his growing fame. Joel also reportedly prefers creating concepts to the day-to-day work of maintaining them. Once a project is up and running, those close to him say, he likes to move on to a new creation. "I want to become a behind-the-camera guy," Joel explained when he left. "I want to get on to the NEXT weird show. I want to bean idea man."
      Jim Mallon, however, resisted Joel's attempts to step away from the series, and felt it was Joel's responsibility, as host, to devote himself to the MST3K franchise. Ultimately the two parted ways. In retrospect, we think all sides now realize it was a healthy change for the series, and all the former cast members are on good terms with one another. That was certainly apparent during Joel's 1998 visit to the BBI studios to shoot his appearances in episode 1001- SOULTAKER. The authors of this FAQ were present at the taping, and Joel and the current cast got along comfortably and there was no tension at all during the taping.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    10. Re:Um, because. by Lehk228 · · Score: 4, Funny

      never let the facts get in the way of a good "OMFG they are opressing us" article.

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
  2. Muppets From Space? by PythonCodr · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Does this mean that Disney licensed the MST3K parody commentary bit for their DVD's commentary track on Muppets From Space?

    1. Re:Muppets From Space? by NanoGator · · Score: 4, Funny

      "Does this mean that Disney licensed the MST3K parody commentary bit for their DVD's commentary track on Muppets From Space?"

      Doubtful. They're not calling it Miss Terry Sign Ass The Ater.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
  3. Not exactly... by Meostro · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Presentations of Mr. Sinus, which was previously known as Mr. Sinus Theater 3000, have Pollet, Egerton and Erler sitting in the cinema's front row, poking fun at chosen movies by making silly comments and signing songs.

    I have to say that in this case, I agree that the big corporation is probably in the right. Three guys trying to cash in on MST3K fame, literally using the same acronym and doing the exact same thing, heckling bad movies. They're not making fun of MST3K, they're just ripping off their format.

    While I would certainly watch, and probably laugh heartily, methinks they might lose this one.

    Alamo Drafthouse approached us maybe about a year ago about licensing Mr. Sinus

    This is interesting because the Drafthouse apparently saw the similarity and tried to nip it in the bud (a.k.a. cover their ass) with a license, but is still presenting the group and allowing them to continue with the same format/name.

    1. Re:Not exactly... by Babbster · · Score: 4, Insightful
      If the Austin group was called, say, "Front Row Players" or "Commentastic" this suit wouldn't exist. Instead, the group currently calls themselves "Mr. Sinus" which was gleaned from their first name which was "Mr. Sinus Theater 3000." In other words, they were, and are, trading on the familiar name in order to promote their product which is itself more than similar to the original product.

      Best Brains isn't claiming to own the rights to making funny comments over movies. They aren't even claiming to own the rights to silhouetted heads in front of a movie screen making funny comments about movies. They're claiming to own their trademark (which is still active) and object to someone diluting same. That's what you do if you want to retain a trademark - they have to be AGGRESSIVELY defended or they can be lost.

  4. Evil thought: Apple should include ... by AzrealAO · · Score: 4, Funny

    Evil thought: Apple should include a "three silhouettes yakking on merged soundtrack" mode in iMovie.

    That would probably be fine, as long as they didn't call it "Merged Silhouettes Theatre 3000" or MST3K for short.

  5. Speaking As a Local by the+darn · · Score: 4, Informative

    These guys are the best...I've seen them abuse Masters of the Universe, Dirty Dancing, and Top Gun. The Xmas Clip Show is supposed to be INSANE. I always have wondered how they manage to get away with the name in this litigious age, though. It seems not even comedy is safe from stupidity.

    --
    Ceci n'est pas un post.
  6. Definition of parody. by Performer+Guy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't think they're parodying a parody, they're just flat out ripping off someone elses parody.

  7. How many people are going to read the article? by chuckgrosvenor · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Probably none, including the person who posted the article, and the people who approved it.

    They deliberately used the name of the show (the acronym) and approached the owners for the rights. They weren't doing a parody of the show format, they were attempting to capitalize on it.

    Not the same thing as just doing a commentary, or even a Rocky Horror Picture Show type presentation (which let's face it, is what MST3K rips off in the first place to some extent).

    --
    ChuckyG
  8. For Free Publicity? by rwiedower · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Mallon says Best Brains declined the licensing, but that Alamo and the comedians did not want to stop using the "Mystery Science Theater 3000" likeness. "We just want them to stop using our name," he says.

    They should just call it Austin Theater and leave it at that. It was their instance on keeping the MST3k name that got Best Brains angry. The name "Mister Sinus" is obscure enough to cause confusion to anyone who didn't get the MST3K reference, which would be unnecessary unless they were just trying to drum up publicity. Oh, wait...

    1. Re:For Free Publicity? by strictfoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The /. article was of course poorly written, making it seem like Best Brains was doing something evil when in fact they are totally in the right.

      --
      I've just signed legislation that'll outlaw Russia forever. We'll begin bombing in five minutes.
  9. jeez by veritron · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Mr. Sinus and Mystery Science are one syllable and a slight intonation apart from each other - pronounce both names out loud, the names of the groups are almost identical. If you're going to almost exactly steal someone's idea, don't do it like these guys did. If the guys who made Mister Sinus don't get their asses kicked in court, something's wrong with copyright law.

  10. Now they know how Joe Don Baker felt! by payndz · · Score: 4, Insightful
    "Yeah? Yeah? Not so funny now, is it, punks! *gasp, wheeze* Oh man, ah need to sit down and have a beer an' a burrito, catch ma breath..."

    Seriously, though, I'm with Best Brains on this one. If you're going to rip off the MST3K format (*cough*BeavisandButthead*cough*), at least do something different with it (*cough*BeavisandButthead*cough* - oh, wait, I didn't need to cough that time). Even the name of this group is taking the piss! 'Mr Sinus Theater 3000'? What, do they call themselves Mick Napoleon, Blackbird R Tobor and Tim Smallmotor?

    --
    You must think in Russian.
  11. The Greater Good by Ray+Radlein · · Score: 4, Funny


    When I first read the headline, "MST3K Rightsholders Sue Over Theater Commentary," I thought that perhaps Best Brains had decided to sue anyone who talked in the theater while a movie was being shown.

    Kind of a shame, really -- they had the makings of a wonderful Class Action lawsuit against Obnoxious Yapping Assholes.

  12. Same/Different by Luyseyal · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Mr. Sinus vaguely follows the format of 3 individuals making fun of a movie. Making fun of movies in public has been done since, what, probably the 1890s? Another poster mentioned Rocky Horror.

    Mr. Sinus uses no characters from MST3K. If MST3K thought the idea of making fun of movies was original, they should have filed a business method patent. So, MST3K's only real problem is a possible confusion of names, thus, Mr. Sinus' dropping the "Theatre 3000". Consequently, while Mr. Sinus is a partial tribute to MST3K, as is evident from their theme song, it doesn't violate any of MST3K's rights.

    Frankly, I'm highly disappointed in Best Brains, Inc. Apparently, they're not using their namesake.

    -l

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  13. Best Brains Inc. - Hardly a Major Corporation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    For those who gripe about this being another big corporation squelching the little guy, you should know that last I heard, Best Brains was Jim Mallon (the producer of the show) and some office staff. They are the littlest of guys, and because of rights issues (which they respect), they can't distribute a good chunk of their own show's run. So protecting what little they have doesn't seem out of hand to me.

  14. Re:that's just wrong by ewhac · · Score: 4, Informative
    All but about ten of the episodes are in public domain now.

    The term "public domain" has a very specific legal meaning. MST3K episodes are definitely not public domain. Although it may be strongly inferred that Best Brains doesn't mind unsanctioned copying (the phrase, "Keep circulating the tapes," appears prominently in the end credits of many shows), the shows themselves do not enjoy public domain status.

    Some of the shows are available commercially on DVD. That should be the first place MST3K fans look for episodes.

    Schwab

    --
    Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
  15. I wish people would actualy read the artical... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    its fun!

    MST3k isnt suing because they are using the format, they are suing because they practicaly used the same name and then tried to make money. They knew exaclty what they were doing because they actualy tried to obtain licensing and mst3k rejected it because they did not like the way that mst3k would be portrayed. This isnt a parody of mst3k, its somone stealing the mst3k format and using it to make money.

  16. Re:live performances are different by gilroy · · Score: 4, Informative
    You know what I really love on slashdot? When someone posts a link to "prove" their point, and end up pointing out how wrong they are. From the linked FAQ:

    I know that I need permission for live performances

    Later in the same FAQ

    2. How much will it cost to obtain an ASCAP license to perform music?

    The annual rate depends on the type of business. Generally, rates are based on the manner in which music is performed (live, recorded or audio only or audio/visual) and the size of the establishment or potential audience for the music. For example, rates for restaurants, nightclubs, bars and similar establishments depend on whether the music is live or recorded, whether it's audio only or audio visual, the seating capacity of the bar or restaurant, the number of nights per week music is offered, the number of musicians, whether admission is charged and several other factors. ...
    Concert rates are based on the ticket revenue and seating capacity of the facility.


    Oh, I'd say it's pretty clear that even for live music, they expect their cut.
    --
    The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
  17. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  18. Read the Article by PetoskeyGuy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They named themselves "Mister Sinus Theater 3000" and do the same skit with adult humor.

    Mister Sinus Theater 3000 sounds almost exactly like Mystery Science Theater 3000 when said out loud. No one is going to confuse Muppets in Space since they aren't similar to the trademark.

  19. Re:"deceptively similar"??? by rjstanford · · Score: 4, Informative

    I don't see what about "Mister Sinus" is NOT parodic.

    Their name may be parodic. Their act (I live in Austin) is damn near identical. If it was a true parody, they would be doing a send-up of people who made fun of movies. They're not. They're making fun of movices themselves, just like the MST3K people do. That's the difference.

    Look at it this way. Creating a mock product called Queen-ex that proported to be a way to remove makeup from people in drag with amusing side effects like automatically applying facial hair? That's a parody. Creating a product called Queenex that's a facial tissue? That's trademark infringement, plain and simple.

    Besides, say out loud, "I'm going to go and see the Mr. Sinus Theatre guys as they make fun of Top Gun." If someone heard you say that, and wasn't a regular Alamo Drafthouse attendee, they'd think that you were talking about MST3K. Worse, what about, "I went to see the Mr. Sinus Theatre people do Top Gun, and it sucked balls." Same problem, but now with a negative connetation that's not Best Brains' fault. That's what the Best Brains folks don't want happening.

    For the record, the Mr. Sinus sendup of Top Gun rocks. It was just an example.

    --
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