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MST3K Rightsholders Sue Over Theater Commentary
An anonymous reader writes "How can people who parody people sue people who parody them?
Mr. Sinus is being sued by Best Brains Inc. the owners of the rights to Mystery Science Theatre 3000 because they are using a name/format that is too similar to their own.
Here is the story." Evil thought: Apple should include a "three silhouettes yakking on merged soundtrack" mode in iMovie.
That's an easy one. Because the people who are being sued are not parodying them. They're blatantly using the MST3k formula. At one point they even called the show "Mister Sinus Theater 3000." They also tried to license rights to MST3k. They knew what they were doing. Duh.
Now, can we get back to feeling sorry for people that steal music please?
Does this mean that Disney licensed the MST3K parody commentary bit for their DVD's commentary track on Muppets From Space?
Presentations of Mr. Sinus, which was previously known as Mr. Sinus Theater 3000, have Pollet, Egerton and Erler sitting in the cinema's front row, poking fun at chosen movies by making silly comments and signing songs.
I have to say that in this case, I agree that the big corporation is probably in the right. Three guys trying to cash in on MST3K fame, literally using the same acronym and doing the exact same thing, heckling bad movies. They're not making fun of MST3K, they're just ripping off their format.
While I would certainly watch, and probably laugh heartily, methinks they might lose this one.
Alamo Drafthouse approached us maybe about a year ago about licensing Mr. Sinus
This is interesting because the Drafthouse apparently saw the similarity and tried to nip it in the bud (a.k.a. cover their ass) with a license, but is still presenting the group and allowing them to continue with the same format/name.
That format would be sitting in a theater and making fun of a bad movie? Guess they better start suing most groups of teenagers I've ever seen at a movie
i think it's fair enough that he doesn't want them to use the Mystery Science Theatre 3000 name since it's more adult themed than MST3K is. I wouldn't mind showing MST3K to pretty much any kid, so their recalcitrance to license it seems completely reasonable. There's no patent on commenting on movies (yet) so the austin people should just change their schtik a little.
Evil thought: Apple should include a "three silhouettes yakking on merged soundtrack" mode in iMovie.
That would probably be fine, as long as they didn't call it "Merged Silhouettes Theatre 3000" or MST3K for short.
These guys are the best...I've seen them abuse Masters of the Universe, Dirty Dancing, and Top Gun. The Xmas Clip Show is supposed to be INSANE. I always have wondered how they manage to get away with the name in this litigious age, though. It seems not even comedy is safe from stupidity.
Ceci n'est pas un post.
"We just want them to stop using our name," he says.
I agree. Choose a different name, guys. Exercise some creativity.
I don't think they're parodying a parody, they're just flat out ripping off someone elses parody.
Having seen two Mr. Sinus shows, I gotta say this seems bogus to me. What business are they losing here, exactly? People are going to spend money to go to a Mr. Sinus show instead of paying for and old episode of MST3K on DVD? Yeah, right.
If they used robots, or filmed it, or if the show were still being made (or even aired on TV), BBI may have a leg to stand on, but it seems to me they're just trying to cash in on some good fans here.
Probably none, including the person who posted the article, and the people who approved it.
They deliberately used the name of the show (the acronym) and approached the owners for the rights. They weren't doing a parody of the show format, they were attempting to capitalize on it.
Not the same thing as just doing a commentary, or even a Rocky Horror Picture Show type presentation (which let's face it, is what MST3K rips off in the first place to some extent).
ChuckyG
They should just call it Austin Theater and leave it at that. It was their instance on keeping the MST3k name that got Best Brains angry. The name "Mister Sinus" is obscure enough to cause confusion to anyone who didn't get the MST3K reference, which would be unnecessary unless they were just trying to drum up publicity. Oh, wait...
Mr. Sinus and Mystery Science are one syllable and a slight intonation apart from each other - pronounce both names out loud, the names of the groups are almost identical. If you're going to almost exactly steal someone's idea, don't do it like these guys did. If the guys who made Mister Sinus don't get their asses kicked in court, something's wrong with copyright law.
Mr. Sinus is done at 9pm to midnight on Friday and Satuday nights... in the Club district... in a drafthouse.
Ain't nobody taking their kids there by accident.
--Rob
Want to bet?
You absolutely have to pay royalties/licensing to ASCAP or other organization managing the licensing for the music in question to perform that music legally.
Most professional bands do. Schlocky local bands don't, but they are breaking the law as much as anyone is stealing music online.
"We just want them to stop using our name," he says.
Okay, those comedians are dumb for choosing such an obviously similar name. I have no sympathy for them; they should change it immediately. They could call themselves "Three Jackasses".
$8.95/mo web hosting
Seriously, though, I'm with Best Brains on this one. If you're going to rip off the MST3K format (*cough*BeavisandButthead*cough*), at least do something different with it (*cough*BeavisandButthead*cough* - oh, wait, I didn't need to cough that time). Even the name of this group is taking the piss! 'Mr Sinus Theater 3000'? What, do they call themselves Mick Napoleon, Blackbird R Tobor and Tim Smallmotor?
You must think in Russian.
When I first read the headline, "MST3K Rightsholders Sue Over Theater Commentary," I thought that perhaps Best Brains had decided to sue anyone who talked in the theater while a movie was being shown.
Kind of a shame, really -- they had the makings of a wonderful Class Action lawsuit against Obnoxious Yapping Assholes.
True, the spirit of MST3K was always "reference" humor, it was amazing how many inside references they could get in one show.
Mr. Sinus vaguely follows the format of 3 individuals making fun of a movie. Making fun of movies in public has been done since, what, probably the 1890s? Another poster mentioned Rocky Horror.
Mr. Sinus uses no characters from MST3K. If MST3K thought the idea of making fun of movies was original, they should have filed a business method patent. So, MST3K's only real problem is a possible confusion of names, thus, Mr. Sinus' dropping the "Theatre 3000". Consequently, while Mr. Sinus is a partial tribute to MST3K, as is evident from their theme song, it doesn't violate any of MST3K's rights.
Frankly, I'm highly disappointed in Best Brains, Inc. Apparently, they're not using their namesake.
-l
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How strange and scary!
Are they ripping of the format? I don't know, hell I don't care.
If the first stand up comedian would have patented his bit that would have set us back a few laughs. Wouldn't it.
Ever seen the amazing resemblance between Richard Pryor and Eddy Murphy's stand up bits? Ever seen the similarities between Dennis Leary and Bill Hicks? Ever really looked at Lenny Bruce and seen the groundwork for everything that came after that?
All entertainers start out by copying there idols. Only the good ones surpass them. Rarely is ever do they forgive them.
All this legislation crap makes me sick to my stomach. It used to be cool to be copied. It meant you were doing something GOOD, worth copying. Artist, programmers, writers, they wore it like a badge of recognition. Now they wine like little kids. Sad, sad, sad!!
I kind of agree (with your disagreement)... MST3K was made in my home town and I've been a fan club member (#18624) since I was in 5th grade. My letter I wrote to join the club must have taken less than a few hours to get to Hopkins from Eden Prairie. So I instinctively want to side with Best Brains on this point... but I really can't.
I really wish they would consider this an homage and not be litigious about it... I don't think these Mr. Sinus people were intending to rip off Best Brains... and it's not like they're stealing income from them either with their local live show. It's cute.
For those who gripe about this being another big corporation squelching the little guy, you should know that last I heard, Best Brains was Jim Mallon (the producer of the show) and some office staff. They are the littlest of guys, and because of rights issues (which they respect), they can't distribute a good chunk of their own show's run. So protecting what little they have doesn't seem out of hand to me.
that they are suing over this, but have given their blessings to The Digital Archive Project which encodes and shares the shows that were not released commerically on DVD.
I remember a quote from Kevin Murphy(one of the few founding members of the show to stay with it the whole time) "Ideas are free my friend"
Monstar L
The term "public domain" has a very specific legal meaning. MST3K episodes are definitely not public domain. Although it may be strongly inferred that Best Brains doesn't mind unsanctioned copying (the phrase, "Keep circulating the tapes," appears prominently in the end credits of many shows), the shows themselves do not enjoy public domain status.
Some of the shows are available commercially on DVD. That should be the first place MST3K fans look for episodes.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
Ok, so I'm at a concert and a bunch of fools are shouting "Freebird!" The band on stage laughs and indulges the drunks with a few chords from freebird. Does Skynard get paid for this?
Check ASCAP's website. Their licensing only applies to the playing of actual recordings in public.
By your rationale, Tony Hawk can sue any skateboarder who performs a trick that is identical to his.
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
Seeing as how Mr. Sinus is local to Austin, most people here will never have seen it. However, the comments here are relaly harsh. Did they rip off the concept? Yes. Did they rip off the name? Yes. But to claim that MST3K should have exclusive rights to poking fun at a movie is absurd. These guys pay hommage to MST3K in their intro, the show is somewhat interactive, has a decent comedy routine in the middle, and is certainly original (they do lots of movies the MST3K guys would never touch) While I lived in Austin, I saw every Mr. Sinus show, and they are generally hillarious (Red Dawn was one of my personal favorites, the Village People Special was probably the worst of the bunch). They started doing the show after MST3K was pulled from the air. The show is mostly for adults, as there is almost always adult humor and language (The Christmas Specials bring this to an extreme). They are a comedy troupe doing original work in a stylistic format. And it is pretty damn funny.
They all have several heads in front of the screen. While I get sued?
its fun!
MST3k isnt suing because they are using the format, they are suing because they practicaly used the same name and then tried to make money. They knew exaclty what they were doing because they actualy tried to obtain licensing and mst3k rejected it because they did not like the way that mst3k would be portrayed. This isnt a parody of mst3k, its somone stealing the mst3k format and using it to make money.
So if they let this one go, pretty soon you'll be seeing all sorts of creative variations on MST3K in your local "adult" section.
Now, whether a trademark judge would agree with me is another question; certainly cases like this have been won by the original trademark holder, even in cases where the parody is even more blatant. Personally I think trademark law should not be used at all to stifle free expression whether in the form of parody or criticism; to me it should only be a remedy in cases where the attempt to deceive and steal markets is obviously the main point of the trademark violation.
Not specifically Skynard, but the licensing organization (BMI or ASCAP) absolutely does. Then they figure out how to divvy out the money to their members.
Its not my rationale, its the law. You may disagree, but to be blunt, you're wrong.
Later in the same FAQ
Oh, I'd say it's pretty clear that even for live music, they expect their cut.
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Um, they're doing just fine selling new releases of old episodes, why do they need new material to defend what they currently hold--much of which hasn't been released yet? As long as sites like DAPCentral (use google) are honorable and don't distribute episodes that are commercially available, they just help the brand, and won't get spanked. If you RTFA, you'll note that Mallon's beef is that these guys are taking the MST3K format and using it for more "adult" humor, and still want to trade on the idea that they're like MST3K.
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
They'd been showing an ever-smaller pool of reruns for several years; as time went by they lost the rights to keep showing about 1/2 of their last three seasons, so they were down to about 10 - 12 episodes in the rotation.
I love MST, but I kind of hate to see one group of smartass movie lovers going all corporate on another group of smartass movie lovers. But in their defense, Best Brains has been tolerant of those who trade copies of MST eps online or on tape, as long as they don't sell / copy the ones commercially available on VHS or DVD...
I'd suggest reading these:
How Music Licensing Works
How Music Royalties Work
They named themselves "Mister Sinus Theater 3000" and do the same skit with adult humor.
Mister Sinus Theater 3000 sounds almost exactly like Mystery Science Theater 3000 when said out loud. No one is going to confuse Muppets in Space since they aren't similar to the trademark.
This is by far the best theater I have ever been to. They serve food and drinks, including alcohol, while you watch the movie.
Some of my best movie-watching experiences were at the drafthouse in Austin this summer. We went there to see Dodgeball, and before the movie they had a cage setup outside where they held a dodgeball tournament. Our technically inclined team got its butt kicked, but we had fun nonetheless.
They held a special pre-screening of Harold and Kumar go to White Castle. They had a road rally scavenger hunt where we listened to clues on a CD and had to visit places all over Austin and call in for more clues when we got there. The last place in the road rally was a secret location where they were screening the film.
We got all the White Castle burgers we could eat (not many, they're disgusting) and after the movie the stars and writers came on stage to answer questions and chat about the movie.
I heard they did a special screening of Open Water on Lake Travis where you watched the movie while dangling your legs in the water.
The Mr. Sinus stuff is clearly a trademark infringement, and it's meant to be. It's too bad that Best Brains won't let them use the name, because it is a pretty clever parody and has built up a pretty strong brand in Austin. To go to a Mr. Sinus show you have to order tickets online at least a day in advance. Hopefully they can change the name to something decent and keep the brand with something like "Sinus Live".
Thank you Mario! But our princess is in another castle!
"The guys doing this show sound like hacks."
"If I had to put money down, I'd Mr. Sinus are interested in dick/fart jokes and "racy" humor. But I haven't seen their show, so it's only speculation."
And I'd gladly take the money you'd put down. You are right on one thing - you're only speculating. Yes, the show does contain dick/fart jokes and "racy" humor, but the vast majority of the humor is inline with that of MST3k.
Did they rip off MST3k? Well, they most certainly used it as the foundation of their show. The cancelling of MST3k was the inspiration for putting on the first shows - which at the time wasn't very far off from your "college kids" analogy.
But dick and fart jokes? Well, if you knew about the drafthouse, you'd understand why the humor can be "racy." The drafthouse is more like a dinner theater than a movie theater. They removed every other row of seating, installed tables (more like a short bar) instead, and sell food, drinks and beer. You have to be at least 18 year old to be in the theater. (http://www.drafthouse.com/) So, it's an older audience than saturday morning on Sci-Fi. The humor can be, and in such a venue is even expected, to be dirtier and racier. However, the balance between blue and non-blue humor is very well done. The Mr. Sinus guys are much better than just "hacks."
Plus, Mr. Sinus takes on movies that MST3k wouldn't ever take on. MST3k basically stuck to B-movies in the Mystery or Sci-fi catagory. Dirty Dancing and Top Gun would fall into neither of those. And, as their theme song states: They can do shows with nudity.
The differences in venue and movie types is enough to give it a different feel than MST3k. It's half MST3k and half the local improv comedy club.
If you're ever in Austin, you need to catch a show. Also, they do shows in Houston from time to time (and San Antonio as well, I believe.)
My karma is in a nose dive
Verdict: Mr. Sinus kicks MST3K to the curb. No contest.
Regarding the lawsuit, Mr. Sinus is a LIVE show, and MST3K was taped and rebroadcast. This is enough of a difference to throw out any "stealing the format" argument. When MST3K goes live (and goes live in your neighborhood movie theater), then there may be overlap issues. Until then, these shows have two very different formats.
In the course of every project, it will become necessary to shoot the scientists and begin production.
Erm... so the "Maybe this will jog your memory." line as Cal goes into the backseat of the car bit from the MST3K movie was intended for all viewers??
Actually, that's a perfect example of how MST was for all ages. For an adult it's a touch of racy/raunchyness but at the same time a kid would simply not get it. I gather from other comments around the net that the Mr. Sinus guys would have gone with a line more akin to "I told you I don't fuck on the first date".
See the difference?
jello.
aka aron.
No, we need a fourth one! One with either more syllables or adds a hyphen.
(Similar to how WWI's "shell shock" became WWII's "battle fatigue", which became the Korean War's "operational exhaustion", which became the Vietnam War's "post-traumatic stress disorder".)
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
Now I understand why people complain about errors in the articles on /.
The lessons of history teach us - if they teach us anything - that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.
1. Mister Sinus is in the wrong, period. It's perfectly okay to make fun of movies in the Mystery Science style, but it's not okay to rip off their name. Maybe it would be if this were parody, but the thing being parodied is not MST, it's the movies, so that defense will probably collapse. To the guy who said Mister Sinus, in terms of quality, "kicks MST to the curb," I have to respond: I seriously doubt it.
2. The Mystery Science style has been seen in a non-MST DVD before. Take a look at the director's commentary on Ghostbusters some day. Rather slick, if jittery.
3. Best Brains has implied that copying episodes is okay, with "Keep circulating the tapes" in the credits of earlier episodes. Kevin Murphy, voice of Tom Servo and author of A Year At The Movies (which is GREAT, by the way) has condoned internet episode distribution in an interview (but it should be said that he is no longer a Best Brains employee, and wasn't one when he said it). But most fans, and distribution systems such as the DAP, refuse to trade episodes that can currently be purchsed. There are almost ten times as many episodes that aren't available as are, and some of the best ones (like the Gamera series and the other Japanese movies brought to the US by Sandy Frank Enterprises) will probably never be made available for official purchase because of rights issues surrounding the movie.
But there is one really cool thing about all this: MST3K still has the cultural mindshare, among geeks at least, to make the front page on Slashdot! Cause for some celebration, perhaps.
I certainly don't think anybody could win a lawsuit, if they were claiming they invented the format of people in a theatre mocking a bad film, but MST3K does have a solid lawsuit. Why? Tradmark!
Is it hard to see the problem with calling your show "Mr. Sinus Theater 3000"? Maybe if he left off the "3000" it wouldn't be quite so obvious, but as is, it's obviously infringing on their trademark.
Next on the block, let's create a company that sells computers, and call them "Kom Pack".
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