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Broadband Envy: Fixing American Broadband

Ant writes "Broadband Reports has a story on broadband services among countries including United States falling behind: 'Bombarded with tales of South Koreans and Swedes watching high-definition soap-operas via 100Mbps connections, the media has apparently developed a nasty case of broadband envy. This Reuters article suggests the US has "missed the high speed revolution", while last week Business Week dubbed America a "broadband backwater".'"

63 of 847 comments (clear)

  1. A concerted effort... by danielrm26 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    First off, we already know that "we have a much larger infrastructure". That argument is tired. We're still behind - even accounting for this significant hurdle. Other countries have made it a priority and have put measures in place that allow the process to bypass red tape and move forward.

    We haven't, and we need to.

    --
    dmiessler.com -- grep understanding knowledge
    1. Re:A concerted effort... by Paulrothrock · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Rural communities don't get broadband because there's no profit in it. Suburbs don't get 100Mb connections because there's no profit in it. Maybe if we get rid of the profit we could get some comparable connection speeds. How? Community based fiber to the home. It's already worked in dozens of places, and has helped to keep declining communities from fading out of existence.

      --
      I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
    2. Re:A concerted effort... by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 5, Funny

      Hey, we know its an unfair criticism, compared to small densly populated countries like Japan and Korea...Still, articles like this may light a fire under some suceptables asses, and get us better broadband.

      So let me be the second or third in decrying the deplorable state of broadband in this country! More porn! Faster porn! We are a shameful tech backwater! We might as well just be banging rocks together, settling for these crappy 3 megabit home internet connections. You know there is a direct correlation between the size of your pipe and the size of your penis, which means the Japanese and the Koreans have penises 33 times the size of ours! Even the women!

      I call upon all of you to complain to your senators about the tiny nature of our pipes. It's flat out un-american. How can we hold up our heads in the world? No wonder we're having to invade other countries to prove our manhood.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    3. Re:A concerted effort... by mike_mgo · · Score: 3, Funny
      So let me be the second or third in decrying the deplorable state of broadband in this country! More porn! Faster porn! ... which means the Japanese and the Koreans have penises 33 times the size of ours! Even the women!

      What porn sites are you going to?

      Sicko.

  2. So true by StevenHenderson · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is very true. The US is behind, and for good reason. While other countries develop cutting-edge infrastructures that are government-subsidized, we are stuck here in the US paying money to monopolies (read: Comcast, et al) for relatively substandard services. Sure, it might be more than enough for people now, but there is no reason that a nation as advanced as ours should be so backwards in this area.

    1. Re:So true by DarkSarin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      First, there are a LOT of reasons the US is behind, and the baby bells (bellsouth in my area) are largely to blame, because of FCC regs. But then again, so is localized monopoly of cable service (again, blame the FCC).

      The first step to cheaper broadband? FCC demonopolization of areas currently controlled by a single company (phone/cable). As it stands, I live in an area where I can only get Northland Cable. It sucks beyond beleif. They offer very slow connections at an outrageous price.

      Two months ago I had DSL, but when I moved, it was outside the range. So I switched (I also went with vonage, but hey). I am now paying MORE for LESS (which in this case sucks).

      Compare this to my mother. She lives 10 miles from the closest post office (give or take 2) in Boonesboro KY. It small enough that it doesn't even have its own zip code or fire dept. Bellsouth called her and offered DSL, starting this month. Go figure--she lives in the most rural area I can think of, and is getting DSL!!

      Let me reiterate--if we want faster cheaper internet, gov't subsidy is one way to go. The better way is to open up the competition. This will also decrease the price of cable TV (note that satellite has already helped with this, but more competition is always good).

      Nuff said.

      --
      "We don't know what we are doing, but we are doing it very carefully,..." Wherry, R.J. Personnel Psychology (1995)
    2. Re:So true by k98sven · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How did this piece of misinformation get modded "insightful". It's plain wrong.

      Sweden for instance, has had some government subsidizing of broadband. Sweden has no government monopoly on broadband services.
      (the old government-monopoly on telecom was deregulated 10 years ago)

      This isn't anything unusual either. Governments often subsidize private industry in sectors which are considered strategically important for the country.
      (Can you say "military-industrial complex?")

    3. Re:So true by packman · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So the average inhabitants per square km in the US is +-31, in sweden it's +-21, in Korea it's about What's your point? That denser populations are harder to serve? I would think it's exactly the opposite no? If I have 3 families living in my street, and I put a cable, the cable is a lot more expensive than if there would be 6 families living there no? Don't blame the size, blame the short-sightness and fear for doing large investments of your ISP's & phone companies.

      So if you compare Sweden to California and Korea to Indiana, also compare them with the numbers of California plz...

      For South-Korea I think the size is incorrect, since this would result in a stunning 494 inhabitants per square km...

  3. The internet is a necessity these days by Slashbot+Hive-Mind · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Two years or so ago I visited Tami Nadu, a poor state in the south of India... Even in the smallest towns (say, 20 inhabitants which is nothing in India), you would find a place offering dirst-cheap internet acces (typically 2 or 3 computers sharing a 33.6k line). People there had taken to using that instead of phone because it was much, much cheaper! It allowed for exemple parents who had a son or daughter studying or working in an other city to contact him at a fraction of the cost of a phone call. It also allowed farmers to have up-to-date information on market price for their product or to ask for the delivery of fertiliser or spare parts for those who had a truck, or to know when one of their relative living in a city had an opening for a temporary job (at a building site, for exemple). It was amazingly useful - and it was not designed for tourists. Though we were happy to use the places, we were often the only foreigners the guy in charge of the place had had for clients this year. And while it was slow, for text emails a 33.6 line is more than enough. You really wanted to kill spammers there though - downloading 50 spam emails using broadband is annoying, but on a shared 33.6k line it's a real pain ;-)

    People who reacts to article like that by saying that internet is a luxury are missing the fact that basic internet services like emails or simple websites are in practice often the cheapest way to communicate - you get far more information out of your phone line. And even poor farmers in third-world countries need to communicate, if only to the nearest city. Internet is more than just a greater provider of pr0n and pirated music...

    --

    --
    We are the collective Slashbot HiveMind
  4. Area to cover by mealtime_warrior · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Sweeden: 173,732 square miles South Korea: 38,000 square miles USA: 3,537,441 square miles

    1. Re:Area to cover by easter1916 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Sweden population - ~8 million. Korea population - ~50 million. USA population - ~290 million. What was your point again?

    2. Re:Area to cover by Paulrothrock · · Score: 3, Informative

      Canada: 3,855,102.64 square miles
      Penetration: Similar to South Korea
      Their solution: Public funding.

      --
      I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
    3. Re:Area to cover by Aggrazel · · Score: 3, Interesting

      2004 Military Budget:

      United States: 399.1 billion
      Sweeden: 4.5 billion
      South Korea: 14.1 billion

  5. High Speed Revolution by UncleBiggims · · Score: 5, Funny

    The High Speed Revolution will televised in the US ONLY.

    In all other countries, it will be streamed in HD over 100Mbps connections.
  6. There are some complicated legal problems by HMA2000 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    On one hand I want to say "just relax the telecom/cable regulation so there are far lower barriers to entry." But you can't have every company with a couple wires digging up every street to spur competition. Then to make it even worse the existing telecom grid was put in place by private companies using MASSIVE government subsidies.
    I am about as hardcore capitalist as one could get but I think in the case of wired communication you have a natural monopoly that should be owned by the government so that a level playing field for all can be developed and create an enviroment with much lower barriers to entry. Of course to do that the current owners of the telecom grid would get F'd in the A so it's not as simple as that.

    Sigh...

    1. Re:There are some complicated legal problems by Ignignot · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Then to make it even worse the existing telecom grid was put in place by private companies using MASSIVE government subsidies.

      Ah, but as Adam Smith said, the wealth of a country is proportional to the connectedness of the people in it (roads, trains, phones, etc.) so a government subsidy of broadband makes sense - it increases everyone's wealth and improves worker effeciency by leaps and bounds. The return from the combination of that and the multiplier effect should easily be enough to convince the government to invest in broadband connections for everyone. These things aren't just for entertainment and communication, they are extremely useful for work and education as well. I'm not suprised the US government has not subsidized the deployment, but they should.

      --
      I submitted this story last night, and it didn't get posted.
  7. Re:Size DOES matter. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you really meant "miles and miles of wasteland" instead of "purple mountains majesty and amber waves of grain", take a trip across country sometime, and learn to appreciate the natural beauty. There's more out there than what you see on your screen. ;)

  8. Re:Yawn. Same old story. by Paulrothrock · · Score: 5, Interesting
    TFA says that Canada ranks with South Korea in broadband penetration, and it has similar geography to the US.

    In other words, it's the Baby Bells and the FCC who make it hard for communities to roll their own broadband, not distance or regulations or profit.

    --
    I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
  9. Meanwhile in Broadband Britain... by thinkninja · · Score: 4, Funny

    Our postal service can't meet their targets and we are beholden to BT for all our telecommunications. At the very least in America there is a sembalance of competition.

    I'm mildly annoyed because a 72hr outage was caused by a cow (supercow powers) munching through some BT cable. Don't they bury these things?

    --
    "The number of Unix installations has grown to ten, with more expected." (Unix Programmer's Manual, 2nd ed.; june 1972)
    1. Re:Meanwhile in Broadband Britain... by mccalli · · Score: 5, Funny
      I'm mildly annoyed because a 72hr outage was caused by a cow (supercow powers) munching through some BT cable. Don't they bury these things?

      Yes. The cow was given a proper funeral, with all appropriate honours. It was very mooving.

      Cheers,
      Ian

    2. Re:Meanwhile in Broadband Britain... by darkmeridian · · Score: 3, Funny

      You misspelled "honors" as "honours" and "moving" as "mooving".

      Damn Brits.

      --
      A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
  10. Re:2 words by Paulrothrock · · Score: 4, Insightful
    RTFA:
    A more just comparison would likely be Canada; but wait: they're not only offering faster speeds than their southern neighbors, but consumers pay less, and Canada is close to South Korea when it comes to broadband penetration.
    --
    I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
  11. Re:I wouldn't trade better broadband... by kahei · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm very happy to be living in within a structure of a decentralized broadband access where each individual state dictates the best method of communication

    So, you'd be QUITE HAPPY to have the means of communication DICTATED BY THE STATE eh comrade? Why, you COMMUNIST!

    Nah, seriously, the reasons why the US has somewhat slower broadband probably relate to how much higher the actual demand for it is in SK and Sweden. You don't have to start raging against the monster of socialism every time the US isn't #1.

    --
    Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
  12. The size argument is crap by Tridus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    12 comments, and most of them are already saying "its different because the US is so big!"

    Bullshit. Look at #2 on the actual report, sitting beside South Korea: Canada. Canada being both geographically larger and far less densely populated then the US, the size argument is blown up right there.

    The US is just a lousy place to get broadband.

    --
    -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
  13. Re:Size DOES matter. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    When he said "miles and miles of wasteland" I just assumed he was talking about New Jersey...

  14. Other countries do exist, you know by lachlan76 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Maybe you should all stop complaining about how you don't all have ten megabit connections?
    Over here in Australia, we are almost all on 56k. I can count the number of people I know who have broadband on one hand.
    In the USA, you recently got to 50% of households with broadband. Care to guess how many people in Australia have access to high-speed internet? One million as of June 2004. Out of more than 20 million. THAT'S FIVE PERCENT!!!

    Just because some countries have faster internet, that doesn't mean you're falling behind.

    I'd kill people to get a 512k ADSL line, but I'm just not able to. Be happy with what you already have.

  15. Re:Yawn. Same old story. by inburito · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You do know that USA is quite a bit more densely populated than Sweden, don't you? As a matter of fact the population density in USA is 45% greater than Sweden!

    Btw.. What you are describing is a monopoly (which is the case in usa) and not a free market. In a truly free market we would have prices that are no higher than the actual cost of providing the service, anything else is reflective of monopoly power.

    So ironically we have a fundamentally socialist country here providing a more economically sensible alternative than the home of capitalism can..

  16. Re:Yawn. Same old story. by CoderByBirth · · Score: 5, Informative

    I have bredbandsbolaget as my ISP. Let me clear up some facts in your post:
    His 10mbit cable modem is a little over 3x as fast as...
    The article is a bit unclear here, so it's understandable that you think he has a cable modem. In fact bredbandsbolaget delivers 10mbit ethernet to apartment houses, connected to an optical fiber connection. This means that they deliver 10mbit in both directions, which is significantly different from what any high-speed DSL/cable modems are capable of delivering.

    We are also comparing Sweeden to the United States... I don't need to rehash the fact that the US is quite a bit larger than Sweeden and the population dense areas are quite a distance apart.
    Population density, Sweden: 20 citizens/square kilometer.
    Population density, USA: 33 citizens/square kilometer. (CIA Factbook)

    As for population dense areas in US being quite a distance apart, you are probably right.

  17. Re:2 words.... land mass by WIAKywbfatw · · Score: 4, Informative

    The land mass per capita of Sweden is almost twice that of the US. Or, in other words, Sweden is almost half as densely populated as the US.

    So the cost per person of cabling out Sweden is probably more than the same exercise in the US. Frankly, this blows your argument out of the water.

    --

    "Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
  18. Re:Companies don't want business by tepples · · Score: 3, Interesting

    [snip: phone and cable companies charging exorbitant setup and monthly fees] These companies don't want business.

    Then take their business. Get a few T1s, some WiFi equipment, and some parabolic antennas. Then sell fixed wireless broadband to your neighborhood.

  19. But is it split-speed? by lokedhs · · Score: 4, Informative
    I have teh same kind of Bredandsbolaget connection and there are two things they didn't mention:
    1. The connection is full duplex 10 Mb/s. This means that my upload speed is also 10 Mb/s.
    2. Bredbansbolaget also offers 100 Mb/s connections.
  20. Not true by lokedhs · · Score: 4, Informative
    Bredbandsbolaget are not government-subsidised.

    I know some cities Internet connections are subsidised, but Bredbandsbolaget is one of the biggest (if not the biggest) ISP in sweden and are a privately-held company.

  21. Re:Yawn. Same old story. by tlhIngan · · Score: 5, Informative

    TFA says that Canada ranks with South Korea in broadband penetration, and it has similar geography to the US.

    Yeah, but in Canada, 95% of the population is less than 5 degrees north of the 49th, and that population tend to clump near the cities. And given that there still are people who are on partyline phones (I think they've only recently got individual phones when a microwave link was established)...

    In addition, Canada has a very high percentage of the population that subscribes to cable TV, so the infrastructure to actually do broadband is there. We may have similar geography to the US (larger country, actually), but when you have a population distribution as whacked as it is here (we love to hug the border), as well as infrastructure penetration, it makes broadband access easy. (In urban areas, there are only two types of TV - cable, and satellite. OTA is very rare. In the sticks, they tend to have satellite (C-Band or DSS), since pretty much the only OTA channels is CBC and a couple of others.

  22. Re:Small scale vs. large scale. by nine-times · · Score: 4, Insightful
    What the people who compare the US to these tiny little countries fail to see is the vast differences in terms of scale we're talking about to make a comparable system in the US.

    For me, a particular memory comes to mind. I was in Vienna, talking to a girl from Bosnia, and she asked, "St. Louis is close to Washington D.C., right?"

    I sat and thought for a second, "It depends on what you mean by close, I guess." I had to explain to her that, in most places in the United States, it takes more than a few hours to get out of the country. You could be in the US, ride on a train in a strait line for a full day, and never leave the country. We found a map, and I showed her where NYC and D.C. are, and informed her, that's a four hour trip by train. She just didn't believe me. I then tried to explain Alaska. Don't ask. Most Americans don't understand how big and open Alaska is.

    My point? Just that you're right. The scale of open land between the US and European countries is generally so large that people living there don't even understand how large it is. A lot of people in the US, unless they've travelled some, don't understand how big a country it is. What works for a small country isn't guaranteed to work for a huge one.

  23. Except it's NOT similar by Mr+Guy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Most of it is empty. The rest of the population is crammed almost as tight as the other countries. "Neighbors to the North" is right; over half of their population lives fairly close to their southern border.

    Shamelessly stolen reference link from someone else: Canada's Population Density Reading the caption reveals that 60% of their population lives in a tiny fraction of their land -- "a thin belt of land representing 2.2% of the land between Windsor, Ontario and Quebec City."

  24. Don't stop incentives for new tech! by PatHMV · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I agree that we don't have widespread super-broadband because there's no profit in it in many places. And in some places, a government-run community based fiber system has worked - for now. But government intervention has the tendency of freezing the marketplace and ending the competition for new technologies.

    Your cable modem rate would be much higher or may never have come about were it not for the phone companies offering DSL (and vice versa). Both competitors in that situation were willing to absorb large capital costs in order to make sure the other guy didn't get a jump on them.

    Right now, there is a lot of competition to find new ways to set up high-speed connections. The cable companies, the phone companies, the electricity companies, cell phone and other wireless provider companies -- all these guys are hard at work looking for new technical solutions. If suddenly everybody has a government subsidized, decent speed pipe going into the home, all that competition will slow down or end and we may miss out on even better technologies that might come down the pipe later.

    Look how long the phone service monopoly kept us stuck on 1920s-era technology services. Then France leap-frogged us by setting up Minitel service, but their adoption of Minitel by a government monopoly kept them out of the early stages of BBS and internet growth.

    1. Re:Don't stop incentives for new tech! by Catbeller · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "I agree that we don't have widespread super-broadband because there's no profit in it in many places. And in some places, a government-run community based fiber system has worked - for now. But government intervention has the tendency of freezing the marketplace and ending the competition for new technologies."

      But the articles clearly show that this has not been the case. Highspeed access has progressed in leaps and bounds in Asia and Europe precisely because the governments pushed aside businesses to mandate change.

      I must say that the profit motive is the very reason that we pay so much and get glacial melt speeds. There is no profit margin in upping speeds. Only costs -- if you use MBA logic.

      Once again, it is selective cost accounting. If the ONLY reason to do anything contructive is to make a short-term profit for a corporation, then innovation slows. If a nation doesn't subcribe to the profit-only model of innovation, they can factor in things like quality of life, or overall good for the greatest number, or creating LONG-term profits in exchange for America's short-term model.

      I don't have to pound theoretical justifications into the ground here. I merely point to South Korea and NW European nations. They have mandated that the fiber be dropped, the last mile crossed. They ate the short term costs, pretty major ones, in exhange for the long term success, ie everyone is hooked up for a reasonable cost. They don't need to "innovate" to get it done. It's DONE. They did it. No more nonsense.

      And I'm sitting at home nursing a 128 kb cable connection at peak hours for 55 dollars a month. And they are raising the rates again. And they've locked me into a 100 dollar a month TV/internet package. Tell me who's being "innovative" here, the engineers, or the MBA's draining us?

      If the US highway system had been built using the same logic of those building the internet, we'd be paying thousands of dollars in tolls a year to move at 20 miles per hour around private roads surrounding the suburbs. And all of it justified by profit-only cost accounting and hands-off government policies. And the roads would be heavily policed to see if anyone is carrying VHS copies of movies or cassette tapes of CDs, 'cause we wouldn't want intelectual property thieves causing liability for the road companies.

      PS: the bushies have negotiated a new addition to new interstate highway funding in the future, kids; they'll all be toll roads. Welcome to the future rebuilt -- they just may get their private roads after all.

    2. Re:Don't stop incentives for new tech! by AmericanInKiev · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Toll road are great!

      Part of the reason we don't have safe transportation (as in electric busses, trains) stuff that doesn't cause lung failure - is that we pay the cost of using the road - whether we use ot or not.

      Free at the point of use - is not free - its gawddammn expensive - because it is garenteed to be wasted.

      If water was free in our homes - no one would even bother to turn off the tapp - "I like the sound the water makes - so I leave it on."

      For most people, the cost of stopping to pay the toll is higher than the toll itself less the cost of the tolltaker.
      - speedpasses solve that and should be made national.

      I don't care if the risk is spread between a few rich people who speculate or a few rich people who pay taxes. In otherwords - private doesn't mean much - unless - private means the owner can advertise to drivers - that I abhorr.

      AIK

    3. Re:Don't stop incentives for new tech! by nacturation · · Score: 3, Funny

      If water was free in our homes - no one would even bother to turn off the tapp - "I like the sound the water makes - so I leave it on."

      Water's free (ie: unmetered, paid through taxes) in my home and I don't leave the taps on. Do you know of any people who hyperventilate constantly because air is free?

      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    4. Re:Don't stop incentives for new tech! by Nurseman · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Tell me who's being "innovative" here, the engineers, or the MBA's draining us?

      Not to be a troll here, but why exactly is it the Governments responsiblity to get you the internet service you desire ? I moved from NYC, where I had tons of high speed choices, to the boonies. I waited three years to get off dialup. But, I made the choice to move, I didnt expect the Govt to spend millions to offer me fiber to my door so I can surf the 'Net.

      --
      Save a Life. Donate Blood. Please.
    5. Re:Don't stop incentives for new tech! by renderhead · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Do you know of any people who hyperventilate constantly because air is free?

      No, but I know plenty of people who pump poisonous fumes out of their tailpipes because air is free. Obviously, I'm not suggesting that air not be free. I've seen Total Recall!

      Besides, the grandparent post was obviously meant to be hyperbole, a "worst case" scenario meant to point out how things would be if we took our water as much for granted as we took our roads.
      --
      I wish that my inferiority complex were as good as yours.

      -RenderHead

    6. Re:Don't stop incentives for new tech! by duffbeer703 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually, you're wrong about the roads.

      Government sponsored roads were a government action that was initially seen as a way to keep the railroad and streetcar monopolies in check.

      I would welcome toll highways -- it is ridiculous that trucking companies get to wear out roads with their huge trucks at our expense.

      --
      Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
    7. Re:Don't stop incentives for new tech! by mrchaotica · · Score: 3, Insightful

      High-speed internet access gives us a competitive advantage (or if we don't have it it gives other countries a competitive advantage over us), so it's an investment, not a luxury, just like how the interstate highway system was an investment.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  25. Re:Small scale vs. large scale. by Psycho77 · · Score: 3, Informative

    RTFA:

    A more just comparison would likely be Canada; but wait: they're not only offering faster speeds than their southern neighbors, but consumers pay less, and Canada is close to South Korea when it comes to broadband penetration.

  26. Re:In the Great White North ... by cyberwitz · · Score: 5, Funny

    You smug Canadians with your low crime, affordable healthcare, decent isp prices, good beer, hockey teams that aren't owned by shady AOL jerks, ... Where do I sign up?

    --
    [This sig left intentionally blank.]
  27. Community Based Fiber by The+Angry+Mick · · Score: 3, Informative

    For those who may not remember, here's alink to a story on a community based fiber project in Palo Alto .

    --

    I'm not tense. I'm just terribly, terribly, alert.

  28. Re:Yawn. Same old story. by yamla · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Although most of our population lives close to the U.S. border, our population density over that area is still approximately the same (depending on how you judge) as that of the U.S. in its entirity.

    Furthermore, your argument falls apart when you consider that small towns in Canada, such as Fort McMurray in Alberta (and many towns even smaller than that) have had broadband for years now (since 1997, in Fort McMurray's case) while many major cities in the U.S. still don't have half-decent broadband penetration.

    --

    Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
  29. trolling, eh? by Moraelin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "I wouldn't trade better broadband... ...For communism, sorry."

    Ignorant redneck, but patriotic, eh? ;)

    You know, contrary to what Hollywood movies may tell you, there _is_ a world outside your borders, and it does _not_ all consist of naked tribesmen with stone spears, oppressed by some tribal warlord with a bigger stone spear.

    Pick a geography book sometimes. Fascinating read. You may well find that other countries are just as democratic... if not more, considering that they don't have the "waah!! Terrorists everywhere!!" lame excuse to take away even more civil liberties.

    "It's interesting how the author fails to mention that there are restrictions on websites that users can visit in the aforementioned country, but I digress. I guess that's a convenient oversight."

    Sorry to dawn some reality on your self-righteous redneck rant, but: I don't think Sweden, Germany, UK, or any other EU countries have any more censorship than you already have in the USA too. Yes, the government does say stuff like "thou shalt not watch child porn", but guess what? So does yours.

    We're not talking China. Noone will arrest you in Sweden for having a site about how much the government sucks.

    So again: get that head out of your ass. Learn a bit about the world outside your borders. Or just learn anything, for that matter. Might actually do you some good.

    "I don't want my broadband to be a beurocracy, and I can put up with a few hiccups here and there because down the road, we're going to catch up and feel at ease."

    There's nothing especially bureaucratic about broadband anywhere in the EU.

    "I'm very happy to be living in within a structure of a decentralized broadband access where each individual state dictates the best method of communication, rather than a country tell me that only DSL or CABLE is available."

    Ah, the standard display of talking out of the ass. So you're that great and free because state governments decide for you? Well, gee. Funny how the rest of us thought that freedom had something to do with the government _not_ deciding stuff for you.

    So basically, son, there are plenty of arguments about liberty or economics that might apply to this situation. But you don't even understand either. You don't understand that prized freedom you wave around as a flag, and you don't understand the economics either.

    Your idea of more liberty is merely being a faithful doggie to a lower state government, instead of a centralized government. But a faithful doggie nevertheless. Well, gee. You would have had a great time during feudalism. You'd only have your baron bossing you around, while the higher levels (counts, dukes, the king, etc) don't even give a damn that you exist. Yep, great liberty there.

    So lemme ammend what I was saying: learn some history too.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  30. A less tired argument..... by JohnTheFisherman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...would be that we had far more broadband years before most (all?) of these other countries, and the ISP portion was even built without the luxury of huge government subsidies. These other countries finally decided to invest in some broadband technology a few years ago, and the years-newer installation is faster. Duh.

    Ours will need to be upgraded at some point - and it will - and the leapfrogging will continue. We're also probably not going to see an incremental 2x or 4x improvement to keep up with the Joneses, but a 10x leap - but it probably won't happen for a few years.

    I wonder if their news services will publish "OMG! We aer teh technakal bak watar!11!" articles, or if they had done so several years ago when the US was pretty much the only place you could get affordable broadband for personal use?

  31. Re:Yawn. Same old story. by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The problem with saying that is that, in the places where the population is densest, we still have broadband that is no better than the places where it is less dense.

    I moved to Georgia (112 psm) from New Jersey (1030 psm) and had exactly the same speed internet in both locations. The capability for better exists in both places, but they feel no need to provide it.

    Our telecom regulations suck. We protect companies that provide inferior service.

    --
    ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
  32. It isn't going to happen here by Rocketboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The news articles referenced dance around the problem while studiously refraining from saying it, but the issue in the US isn't geography, it's monopoly. I'll go out on a limb and make a prediction: 10mb/s+ links in the US will never -ever- achieve the market penetration rates that more advanced countries enjoy today. It's not in the Bell's economic interests for it to do so and they own the majority of the links to US homes. For a variety of reasons, Comcast is more of a contributor to the problem, not a solution. For the vast majority of us, broadband will get more expensive, not less, and what you can do with it once you have it will be increasingly restricted.

    Current trends indicate that the major driving force behind widespread adoption of high-speed access is connecting with one's friends, family, and social peers. Much of that communication involves what may euphamistically be categorized as "restricted" (from the point of view of copyrights,) material. Given the current lock that monopolies of various types have on US legislative processes, I don't really see that changing, or much scope for effective, economical use of emerging communication technologies. That's why I conclude that the US is now and will remain for the forseeable future, a technological backwater.

    It's also why Al Queda et. al. are already obsolete -- the US may have enjoyed the shortest run as the dominating global imperialist on record. We've been fading toward irrelevance in world affairs for a generation; the fall of the Berlin Wall destroyed both protagonists, it just took a little longer for us than for our Soviet cold war opponents. Of course, by the time it becomes obvious it will also be old history, but that's something the winners get to write. I hope someone writes it in my lifetime; I'd enjoy reading about it in my old age.

    Back to the point: the US won't get all these fun toys because to most of my fellow citizens, broadband internet access isn't obviously helpful to their lives. Many technology-oriented careers, not just IT, are fading from this landscape in a gradual but inexorable migration toward the east, and while college enrollments are up in general (that is, more kids are going to college,) enrollment in technical and scientific fields of study is falling. Interior design and English may be worthy fields of study but I'm not optimistic that a healthy economy can be based on them. And the education kids are getting these days is not particularly helpful.

  33. join the band by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My (TimeWarner/RoadRunner) cablemodem came with 1.5Mbps (down). About a year ago, it jumped to 3Mbps (down), then this Summer it appears to have jumped to 4Mbps (down). No price hikes, no advertising, no sign except that my rate meter clocks higher. I expected the highly horizontal network architecture in my neighborhood to *decrease* my bandwidth over time, but it is rising. Combine that with my DSL connection (unchanged at 1.5Mbps), pooled but segregated per connection, and I've got about 6.5Mbps (down, + about 1Mbps up = 7.5Mbps). True, I'm paying about $125:mo (excluding the discount for bundled cable TV). But I'm also getting 99.9% "+" 99.9% uptime (really "*", for 99.9999%), which is about 30s downtime per year. That's about par (in the other direction) for managed datacenters with fibers, on a $:GB:mo rate, and I'm in my home. If I could get my home WAN(s) to work at that rate bidirectionally, and dropped the extra TV signal from the cable, I might even compete with the datacenter hosting.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  34. Community != Government by jellybear · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The parent post said "community" fiber to the home. Sometimes the impetus came from schools needing faster conenctions. But it could easily be ordinary citizens. The government, of course, needs to be involved if for no other reason than they have the authority to grant or deny the right of way. Imagine, though, if the town gave its people right of way along certain paths, and left it up to us to lay the fiber. I'm sure there are volunteer groups that would jump at the chance to have super high speed to the home. The motivating force to upgrade would be our own innate technolust, not some bottom-line economic motivation, or some political motivations.

    I say, find out where the incentives and motivations are, and harness that. In this case, the motivated people are the users themselves. I anticipate someone will argue that if people really wanted it, they would pay for it. My counterargument is that, right now, the market does not offer that option. The current North American experience demonstrates clearly that when there are a handful of players, and the ability to compete depends on a heavily regulated access to right of way, then the corporations will NOT cater to the desires of consumers, but rather strategically limit the options of users to maximize returns. In Canada, the two main broadband ISP's (Rogers and Bell), are either charging people extra for high bandwidth usage, or cutting off service to people who go above a secret, unstated, quota. The profit motive is not causing them to upgrade their service in any serious way. It's only causing them to squeeze the consumer harder.

  35. Maybe we have a hard time... by HangingChad · · Score: 4, Insightful
    ...admitting we're second rate in anything. We're always right, and if not we're definitely dogmatic as hell about being wrong.

    We're in danger of becoming a technology backwater, not because of slower broadband, but because we're not investing in technology infrastructure, technology and science eductation and we're shipping intellectual capital in the form of tech jobs overseas to save that precious shareholder value.

    Unlikely we'll ever face up to being second in anything. For some reason we've developed a national concensous that our crap doesn't stink and if we're doing it, then that's the best thing to be doing. Even suggesting that we're not number one in damn all everything will likely get me mod'ed down because disagreement these days is tantamount to treason.

    Most of us grew up with notion that the US was the greatest country on the planet. It's not going to go down easy or well that such a notion might not be true anymore, in any capactity. Whether it's something litlle like broadband, or something bigger like health care, education, privacy or quality of life.

    --
    That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
  36. Re:Yawn. Same old story. by Yaztromo · · Score: 3, Informative
    Yeah, but in Canada, 95% of the population is less than 5 degrees north of the 49th, and that population tend to clump near the cities.

    That's 5 degrees in one plane only. It's approximately 90 degrees in the other dimension. That is still a huge landmass to cover -- particularily when you consider there are major centres strung out through that area.

    Canada is a big place. Quite a bit bigger than the US. The difference in population density may help wiring the major centres themselves, but makes it much more expensive to inter-connect those centres.

    Canada has always been an innovator in the area of telecommunications. When you have a country that covers 90 degrees of the globe at the 49th parallel you have to be good at telecommunications.

    (we love to hug the border)

    Statements like this have always bugged me, because with only two exceptions, the reason why the highest population density is close to the border has nothing to do with the assumption most Americans make that Canada's population is this way because it wants to be close to the US.

    We don't particularily "love to hug the border" -- it's more that the border is placed along areas where it makes sense for higher population density. If you were to look at a map of Canada showing population density, the highest density areas are along the corridor following the St. Lawrence Seaway/Great Lakes. This makes sense if you think of how the continent was originally colonized, and how important water was to travel and commerce. Historically large population centres grew in areas with maritime access.

    It's also the area where the best land for growing crops is. You don't farm in the tundra, and the original settlers of Canada relied heavily upon farming (and fishing) for their food.

    The two exceptions I mentioned above were:

    1. The United Empire Loyalists -- Americans who emigrated from the US to Canada between the US War of Independence and the War of 1812. Many of these people settled in areas just across the border from the US (presumably because their goal was to leave the US -- the trip for some of them would have been extensive, so once they got into Canada, why keep going?), and
    2. Former US slaves who escaped to Canada via the Underground Railroad. Again -- once they crossed the border, there wasn't any reason to keep running, so many of them settled down in border areas like St. Catharines and Windsor.

    As such, it's not so much that we love to hug the border because of the sake of the border. Indeed, these areas were heavily settled even before there was a border, and the border cuts through regions condusive to commerce and travel. If the border were 1000km further south, I'm willing to bet you'd see the same population density as already exists between our two countries.

    Yaz.

  37. their way or the highway by gosand · · Score: 3, Funny
    If the US highway system had been built using the same logic of those building the internet, we'd be paying thousands of dollars in tolls a year to move at 20 miles per hour around private roads surrounding the suburbs.

    You've just described the Chicago suburbs.

    --

    My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.

  38. Absolutely agree w/1st 2 ph's by Lysol · · Score: 3, Insightful

    My brother and his wife (who's Japanese) are moving back to the states from Tokyo. He was asking just the other day what kind of pipe I have. I told him it's a 1.5/384. He wasn't impressed as they were looking to upgrade they're 25mb to 100mb before they decided to move. Er, welcome home...

    We are truely seeing what happens when big media get's in bed with the FCC. While I believe that we will see higher speeds (Speakeasy is offering 6mb/768mb connections in some areas as well as DSL w/out a phone line - which I have), they will be nothing compared to some otehr countries. And I'm the first to agree this is dampening innovation. The pipe is now becoming a necessity in some areas, but don't expect the current administration to see that any time soon.

    Take this example. I'm actually developing a video conferencing app for a company. While some players like Apple, M$, and even Yahoo (altho, their offering isn't much to talk about) their own vconf apps (Apple's, obviously, being the best), they all have high bandwidth demands. Apple's Tiger nextegn Mpeg 4 codec promises to lower these requirements, but for all pratical purposes, that isn't the reality now.

    So for me, working on a new technology with a limited budget, I'm screwed. Unless I wanna fork out big bucks for a hige pipe, my 'innovation' is kinda dead in the water. And even if I did have a big connection, our business clients might not either. All because of artifical costs that the big providers complain about.

    Another issue. In San Francisco, as well as other cities, you have to go thru quite a few hoops - STILL - to get a connection up. The latest was with my Speakeasy Onelink service - which is basically a data-only circuit that doesn't require phone service from SBC. However, it still requires SBC to come out; as part of this requirement I waited all day only to find my line 'tagged' by SBC some time in the past few days. I then called the Speakeasy guys, who said that SBC isn't required to notify anyone during this step. Great. Now Speakeasy/Covad has to wait for SBC to notify them that they've finished. So far that hasn't happend. Gee. In other words, this whole process, after years of availibility, is still crap. Still inefficient. Still a joke.

    While I use Speakeasy exclusively - as a developer - since they're one of the only independent providers left - this whole process is still crap. The Bell's still have no intention of letting go of any control of the copper that we, the government, basically game them in the 40's/50's/60's. So while all these corporate interests still hold the keys, we'll be given little slices while other countries in the world will be given the whole pie thusly, enabling their little guys to 'innovate' a hell of a lot faster than ours. Of course, our adminstration and biz climate here is pretty stacked against the little guy, so no new news there.

    Argh, this whole thing pisses me off..

  39. Success or become a new Ottoman Empire? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This has nothing to do with providing a luxury item, this is no longer the industrial age. In order for a nation to remain competitive in this new information age the glacial speeds imposed by companies seeking to maximize profits must end. The individuals of the nation can not organize to collectively to this outside of the government, which is the organization of all individuals of the nation. This will be mandated by the collective of the government or the nation will no longer be a major economic power. The health of the nation is at stake here, if this is not done the US will become the new sick man of the world-do you know what entity was the last "sick man"? The Ottoman Empire. Think past the immediate or you will fail to understand the majority of things.

  40. Re:1978 is calling..but 2004 answers the phone by zogger · · Score: 5, Informative

    here ya go

    china stockpiling

    http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,820 9- 1240069,00.html

    http://www.aseansec.org/16144.htm

    peak oil

    http://www.peakoil.net/

    --I stay informed, thankew. Prices can be manipulated temporarily for business and political purposes, but there's nothing they can do about rapidly diminishing supply in conjunction with rapidly developing demand. They haven't even found a single mega field for a coupla years now (longer I think really), and several large oil concerns have had to re-assess severely downward what they previously claimed as recoverable reserves. Maybe you missed that little news fact, it's somewhat of what they call a "scandal" lately. It's in the news, not even hard to find. North sea-past peak. Mexico-past peak. Venezuela-past peak. Indonesia-past peak. Lower 48 USA-way past peak. North slope-past peak. Last good stash that is rapidly approaching peak is in the little area of iraq/iran/arabian peninsula. Some dribs and drabs here and there left to develop, west africa, some offshorte areas, etc, but that's it for the good and still easy to get at stuff. I was just reading last night some wells in sauid are pumping at 55% water now from the water they force in to extract it. They used to *gush* pure crude out of the ground, now they have to force it out.

    Naw, maybe the dittoheads still believe that smoke and mirrors razzle dazzle that there's unlimited near free black gold energy, but pure geology proves it otherwise. People who actually do the research and don't fall for snakeoil salesmens spiels know what's up.

  41. Yes, USA is DEFINITELY 2nd rate in healthcare by Cryofan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And you are right--we have a hard time admitting we are 2nd rate in anything. And there is a reason for that: we Americans have been subjected to decades of well-funded media propaganda, which has caused the vast majority of AMericans to suffer from this peculiar disease, which I cannot put a name to, but one symptom of it is the eternal calls to patriotism, and endless rhetoric about "the United States of America." We have manipulated for decades to think that America is so great, and thus we have given our consent to all sorts of foreign wars and foreign policy skullduggery.

    This kind of manipulation still goes on here: most Americans are convinced America has the world's greatest medical case. Umm...no, it does not. Not for the average person.

    And we do not have the world's greatest broadband. Here in Houston, the country's 5th largest city, you can get 1M down, 250K up for the grand sum of $32/month.

    The reason why we have substandard broadband and substandard medical care is that our governmental structure was set up 200 years ago to reflect and maintain a SLAVE SOCIETY. They ran on slaves and indentured servants, and they built a Constitution to exploit the underclass. And they are still exploiting us.

    --
    eat shiat and bark at the moon
  42. We DO move at 20mph by PatHMV · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you're talking about interstate speeds in major cities during rush hour. Frankly, the interstate highway system within cities is a good example of the inefficencies of government action. Any European will tell you that one reason the U.S. has not developed good mass transit is because our government has chosen to subsidize cars, not busses and subways (except in a few major metropolitan areas). Every free interstate road is a subsidy to car owners, which makes it cheaper for them to commute to work by car rather than by bus or train. It also encourages urban sprawl rather than consolidation of neighborhoods.

    The free interstate system has also helped make 18-wheelers more profitable to distribute goods across country than trains or boats. Do you really think that's a good thing?

    I'm not saying I'm against the interstate system or that every road should be a toll road. I'm just pointing out that the interstate highway system may not be the best poster boy in favor of government intervention in the marketplace.

  43. There are several reasons, this is just one... by b0r0din · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There is a significant population mass on the east and west coast, which, when connected via a major trunk, say through Chicago or KC, would allow for much higher speed access in those areas.

    There are several other problems. One is the current government deregulation, which has pretty much forced out all local competition except for cable providers and telcos. While deregulation is good in some respects, it's awful in others, because there weren't enough competitors to begin with, they've consolidated what is left, and there is currently a monopoly between a few major providers, with cable beginning to win out due to their generally better speeds. With no providers offering faster speeds at lower prices, the cable companies can sit on their 3Mb/s speeds while telcos try to keep up with their lame DSL speeds. In my area, the ONLY high speed internet provider offering higher than 1Mb speeds at relatively low prices is Time Warner. They are thus a monopoly, and there is no need for them to improve their service because there isn't anyone else.

    If the telcos caught up, or other providers, this might change. But as there are no other providers due to consolidation, there is only the telcos. And thus far they aren't proving very competitive.

    The other problem, which no one has pointed out, is the media consolidation and piracy issue. Time Warner not only provides broadband access, but produces content which would much more easily be pirated if they jacked their speeds up to 100Mb/s. Face it, they are the RIAA and the MPAA combined. Why would they want to allow a pipe where people could quickly download music and movies?

    Not to mention, streaming TV or radio stations could broadcast which could challenge the production capabilities of the media giants. Get a domain like therealnews.tv and start streaming your own broadcast news show, or stream movies, who knows, it might start to impinge on their TV ratings. And as their business model is in the dark ages, they have to keep broadband in the dark ages. It's more political than you think.

    The pipe could become available. There's all this dark fibre apparently all over the place which sits unused.

    Break up the vertical integration, and I bet you'd see a real shift.

    Just my two cents.

  44. you are correct in one sense... by zogger · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ...and there's two completyely different ways to measure cheap/expensive. One way, the way most folks think of it, is in terms of money. It costs such and such to explore, find,drill the wells, build the infrastructure, pump it via pipeline to a terminal, then to a refinery, then on to the end consumers. The other way-and the most important way-to consider what a barrel of oil costs is to measure it against itself using pure energy terms. Say back in the 30s and 40's, it took a barrel of energy to get back 20 barrels. Now it might be one for three or 4. It's not only more expensive with dollars, but with the energy needed.

    A graph would show how this works, the energy in to get energy out is a rapid drop off once you have reached peak production. Once it hits stasis, an eqwual balance, you could have a trillion barrels sitting underground and it wouldn't do you any good at all, you wouldn't get any energy beyond what it would take to get it, a catch 22, and one that the planet is rapidly approaching.

    along with fresh water crises that are getting closer - here's a link to just one story, the oil situation is the one that will determine current humans survival this century. From everything I have read and the best analysis out there I can find, there's only one conclusion--these are "the good old days" of decent employment, cheap consumer goods, being able to drive hither and yon, affordable air transport, and so on..

    The future is going to be a series of wars over the remaining exploitable natural resources.

    In other words, barring some revolutionary technology that will be easily adaptable all over the planet, something that can actually replace oil for both transportation and for also manufacturing, we gonna be *screwed*. Manufacturing in particular is highly dependent on oil now. Stuff is still cheap because we still can get oil, later on....governments are gonna make a decision, keep themselves in war materiel, or let their populations have cheap trinkets. I'll let the odds makers make the call on that one, but it seems a no brainer.

    I'm a proponent of alternative energy. I think folks should be jumping for joy and snapping up what they can still purchase now at these cheap prices. I'm also a realist, currently we have no alternatives for oil, and it's running out. And fast. There's a slashdot story up now about china going big time into the pebble bed reactors. It's because they know the oil is running out and can do the math. Even then it won't be enough, IMO. It took a buhzillion years to get all the oil, and in roughly one century we have used up most of it. That's the real bottom line.