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Insurance Companies Try Out Auto Black Boxes
tekiegreg writes "It looks like the first black box test for auto insurance companies is underway. While this may be a privacy issue, it can also make better drivers out of everyone if insurance rates are adjustable based on the way everyone drives. This was covered on Slashdot before however this seems to be one of the first workups, that can even include tests on speed and braking, not just location."
And what's really irritating? Lots of us speed, and lots of us brake hard, and how many of us actually are habitually in accidents? If you know the capabilities of your vehicle, there should be no cause for alarm. I drive way more aggressively than my wife, and she's been in more accidents in the last 4 years than I have in the last 10--only one of her own fault, BTW.
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
I've posted this to a forum I run for actuaries - the mathematical types who price insurance. I won't post a link as I'd rather not have the fame. But it will be interesting to see what they have to say
However, in the article, Charles Samuelson makes a point that is well known when it comes to pricing insurance. Progressive is basically selecting the cream of the crop for their clients. That means more money for them (less claims probably), and less for other insurance companies. So the other insurance companies are forced to start underwriting for this as well. Pretty soon, you're screwed because all the insurance companies have to take it into account to remain competitive.
Think that's only a vague thing? At one point nobody priced life insurance by whether or not you smoked. In fact, it was probably only about 30 years ago they started doing that. Now of course, they have two sets of prices - those that smoke and those that don't.
In short, you'd better get used to the idea of having black boxes installed in your car, and having it taken into account on your insurance. It's profitable for the insurance companies, so it's coming to a policy near you.
Life Insurance in Canada
Welcome to socialism :)
Okay kidding, I live in Canada, Saskatchewan to be specific. Our mandatory (auto) insurance comes from Saskatchewan Government Insurance. Its a regulated body. If they want to raise rates, they have to justify it. The most I have ever paid for insurance is $1000/year (for a '99 Sunfire GT in 99). There is a flat rate per car, not per driver. If you have a good driving record over the last few years, you get a small reduction up to I believe 7%. However, if you have a bad driving record, it can go over the base rate. It might not be perfect, but it does let safer drivers (or at least lucky ones) pay less than bad drivers.
You just described State Farm (and every other mutual insurance company). Policyholders are part owners of the company. Everyone gets an annual financial statement to see where their money is going, and can vote in the annual meeting.
I have a positive modifier on Troll. When I mod someone Troll their karma should go UP!
They exist already. Sign up with a mutual insurance company. I'm with Amica. Once a year for the past couple years I've gotten a dividend check equal to about twice my monthly rate.
It's interesting to me how people react to the idea of a city putting up cameras to catch people speeding (which could easily be done in such a way that there is no loss of privacy over the amount of privacy we now have on the road) versus the reaction that people have to the idea of car insurance companies putting black boxes in their cars. There is *far* more privacy loss involved in the black boxes than there would be with traffic cameras, and the traffic cameras would probably actually do more to "encourage" safe driving.
Don't become a regular here, you will become retarded. -- Yoda the Retard
You left out 1) people that are bad drivers and weave in their lanes and 2) ones that don't watch the traffic patterns in front of them. I can't see how any blackbox will be able to detect this kind of lossage.
I would not be surprised to learn that many aggressive drivers have less accidents simply because they do pay attention to the flow of traffic and anticipate
who is intending to change lanes before they turn on their blinkers.
On the road I'm much more afraid of the granny that changes lanes without looking than the jerk that passes me at speed_limit+30MPH.
It certainly beats just giving high rates to 20 year old men because statistically they are more likely to get in an accident.
Will the mods get mad at me if I mention that there is a gmail invite available for a limited time on my blog (same URL as listed as my website)? The rest of my post was relevant, and I love exploiting the popularity of gmail invites.
Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
Cheers,
Erick
http://www.busyweather.com/
But no, they waited until I moved state-to-state a year or two later (in fact, the license thing was long enough previous that I had completely forgotten it) to can me. As I say, trying to make up losses on the '93 flood.
Bottom line: mutual insurance doesn't stop them from screwing you.
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
How will this idiot box help me get my poor little zoom zoom car back or keep others like me from losing their little car in the future?
I had a 1996 Mazda Protege with under 80k miles. I drove that car for a six years until someone recently ran a stop sign and slammed into me. I had a great driving record. The insurance company investigated, determined it wasn't my fault (which is what the police report stated), totalled the car, and then wrote me a check for $880. Granted, the car wasn't that great; I'm sure there were a few petrified Wendy's french fries scattered on the floor board and some dumb Renaissance Art book from a boring ass class that was completely impossible to stay awake in lay in the back seat. However as boring as that class was, the value of the car to me was worth way more than $800.
Now I have no car, and I ride the bus like Rosa Parks and bum rides from my friends. So my question is, will this stupid ass black box fix it so that when idiots run into you and wreck your car, you get your car repaired or another car in return? Oh, I doubt it will: insurance companies are only about saving money for them or if you're lucky, helping you out if it costs them less than what you or the shit you own is worth.
I know if they have one of those boxes in the back of my car, I'll put a post-it on it that says: Fuck you and fuck this box.
porp
well i kinda is, i had 4 accidents in 2 years, none of them my fault, 2 ppl backed into me in parking lots, 2 people rear ended me because they were plain bad drivers (what can i do when i'm stopped at a red light?)
then i had 1 accident that was my fault because of they way the insurance companies do things, person infront of me stopped suddenly and before i could stop i rear ended them going 15km/h.... if you rearend someone your always at fault.
9,000 $$ in damages to my car, other car 0$, SUV vs sports, sports car loses, carinsurance company covered all but 300, air bags didn't go off, and i drove the car home, i'm actualy proud of that one lol
and you know something, SUV owners should pay alot more bceause SUVs are dangerous cars and usualy driven by dangerous ppl!!!
Seriously - if the corporate nanny state insists on penalising me for driving then they can just as well DRIVE THE DAMN CAR FOR ME.
In which case, it might as well be a bus, because that's as fast as I'll be getting across town.
I drive like a complete nutcase, but I NEVER have had an accident, nor have I ever caused an accident. I get speeding tickets about once every three - four years. The difference is: I get there fast, if not first.
I pay VERY close attention when I am driving. I don't zone out listening to Rush Fartbag. I don't twitch myself into a state of road rage - I just look ahead, find the empty lanes, and go for it.
My nemeses are middle aged asian women who invariably drive a big Lexus. It's not racist or sexist - it's just that they weren't raised in a car culture - they were raised in a bicycle culture and slapped into submission. Consequently, they're petrified behind the wheel. Perfectly nice decent people, but TOTALLY in the way on the road. The black box will, of course, give them good ratings while they clog up the highways.
I wonder how these black boxes will go over in Italy...
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
Insurance company statistics are there for a reason. They know that 95% of 20-something Camaro drivers are aggressive drivers and cause more accidents. This isn't going to change because someone put a black box in their car. If anything, this is a ploy to charge higher rates for aggressive drivers. Why would insurance companies try to spread something like this if it wasn't to increase profits? The 95% of Camaro drivers will get their rates jacked up, while the 5% that are in a mid-life crisis will get a slightly lower rate.
<Amanda`> I just went out to the parking lot in my bathrobe to exchange warez CDs.
Yeah, I woulda loved Sask insurance had I not moved to Alberta before I could drive.
:P
Picture this: Me (17) and my cousin (18) drove nearly identical cars (1G DSMs). I'm in Alberta, I payed $3200 a year. He's in Sask, he payed $800 or so. I was like "WTF?! Mom, Dad, can we move BACK!?" Ok, maybe not that last part...
Since then though, my insurance has gone as high as $4200, and is just now (that i'm 21!) dropping back down to around $2800, even though i've got a spotless record. My cousin wrote off his Talon in the first year, and has speeding tickets coming out his ass. Yet he still only pays like $1000 or less for insurance.
@#$*# private insurance companies!!
You can always wipe the OBDII module for the freeze frame data. You just need 12vdc and a laptop.
I do have a computer installed in my car and I successfully wipe the freeze data at will.
Here is a site with a great OBDII modules for the serial port and or USB serial adaptors.
http://www.obddiagnostics.com/
But it will detect the guy passing doing 45 MPH.
"Not using a turn-signal probably won't be detected by the device either."
Why not? Sounds pretty easy to detect this.
"As well, the device wouldn't watch for knuckle-heads who never turn on their lights after dark, or when it's raining severely."
This also sounds like it could be detected by a black box.
So what your saying is you think the box should log more facts about peoples driving? I aggree.
Sindri Traustason.
And that's exactly why only a human, either an eyewitness or an expert, may be allowed as a witness against you; and you must be allowed to defend yourself in proper legal manner. That's how it is today - the police officer is a trained specialist, but if you disagree you can take the dispute to the court and argue there.
A primitive computer may not be allowed to be a witness against you. If someone holds a knife in a crowd it may be because he is a maniac or because he is eating at a restaurant. How a computer would tell one from another?
Well, I see it all the time. Through Syracuse, NY Route 81 is a 3 lane highway. I constantly see people driving in the left hand lane then at the last second flying across all three lanes to get off the exit. That's definately not safe.
Then there are the assholes who change lanes abruptly without using their blinkers, or that guy from out of state driving 10 miles under the speed limit in the left hand lane. Where do these people learn to drive?
I see so much stupid driving daily its just plain scary...and my insurance payment is the same as my car payment. I'm 24, have had my license since I was 17, and have a clean record.
Make America grate again!
The only difference is that most states/banks require insurance on your most important items, so it's a little different than, say the corner grocery deciding you're not allowed to buy your milk there. In an industry that is, for all intents and purposes, mandatory, the choice for a company to do business with a customer shouldn't be as free as in industries with more flexibility.
The Glass is Too Big: My Take on Things
Although the capped payouts may be true, you are sorely mistaken if you think that insurance is fair in Ontario. Did you notice how much your CAR insurance went up after 9/11? WTF. Why the hell am I paying an increased premium (on car and home), to pay for my companies payouts IN ANOTHER COUNTRY? Are they suggesting that they undercharged all those poor victims who had payouts due to 9/11. Right. They just took the opportunity to stiff you, because they already went on a spending binge with the premiums they collected in New York.
Trust me, I worked for an insurance company for years. They are the singlemost sleazy business in the world (maybe excluding tobacco companies marketing to 12 year olds). You are FORCED BY LAW to carry insurance, and the insurance companies WILL TRY ANYTHING TO AVOID PAYING YOU. If they can find so much as a single uncrossed T, they will deny your ass. I can't even tell you how many life insurance claims I have seen rejected, for extreamly suspicious reasons.
I am no fan of big government, however, at the very least they are forced by law to be accountable. No one can make an insurance company justify anything. Most are not public, so there is no acountablilty, since you have to take insurance, bad press does nothing.
Remember Sun Lifes class action lawsuit? The one where THOUSANDS OF POLICIES WERE SOLD BASED ON LIES FROM THEIR AGENTS? Lies that were suggested by their managers as effective selling techniques? Total scum.
Oh, and the comment on trading in the car for something slower, and uglier. Not true. In most cases the rate is based ONLY on your age, and driving record. My brother paid 3600 a year for his 1987 Chevy Nova (Toyota Corolla, in an American wrapper), the exact same that I had to pay for my 1990 5.0 Mustang, at the same age, with the same driving history. Granted, if you are driving a brand new BMW M5, you will pay more, but in most cases, it makes no difference at all.
I know that some insurance companies recover the Air Bag Control Unit if your car has been totaled and if a high payout/death occurs. The information that can be had from one: 1: Impact sensor that set of the air bag (point of impact?) 2: Speed. 3: Seat belts worn. 4: Break time applied. 5: Signal engaged. This is continuius information that is stored while your driving (looped for apx 10 seconds) and saved after air bag deployment. Some of this information is on ALL air bag control units. These are usually located on the inside of the firewall passenger side compartment. So I did a small search and there really wasn't much published on this topic. Urm, a hidden tool that insurance use to disqualify your coverage post accident. http://www.claimsmag.com/Issues/Aug02/technology_t ools.asp
X
There is absolutely no justification for an insurance company to sit on 8 billion dollars while at the same time raising the rates on their customers.
And it gets worse. I had a break-in last year into my truck. Got home at 4AM from a long project. Had $2500 of test equipment, tools and parts in the cab. Had to get up at 8AM and leave again with all the stuff - never had a problem before and it was parked 3 feet from my garage door in my well-lit driveway.
Someone took a rock the size of a bowling ball and blasted out a window ($550 cost alone, plus destroying the interior panel on the other side of the truck - this was a nice Lariat package F-350).
Filed my claim with Travelers Insurance. Two months pass. No check. Call up - they need "more documentation" on my equipment. No problem. Send a spreadsheet with serial numbers for everything and even put in copies of manual covers and all. Two more months, nothing.
Call up - they indicate they had cancelled my claim because I didn't send them information. Shame on me for not sending it certified. Reopened case and sent it certified. Nothing for another month. Call again - CANCELLED AGAIN FOR "INSUFFICIENT DOCUMENTATION." Got agent's email address and emailed pictures. They had had the police report info from the very first call, but I sent everything along certified/return receipt.
Guess what? Cancelled again. Oh... I forgot to mention, the month following the first claim, they hiked my rates "due to a claim." After nine months of battling, they cancelled my policy, and then proceeded to tell me I couldn't open a NEW claim on without a current policy.
Contacted the state insurance folks and filed a complaint. Nothing... "being investigated, but honestly we're so understaffed and overworked that we probably won't be able to help you. Call your congressman and ask him to fund us for more people. We get complaints like yours all the time. Either that or hire an attorney."
My attorney laughed and said it'd cost him at least $4K to get thru preliminary work. Said he's encountered this before - if there is no personal injury and the damages are less than $5K, the insurance company will simply pocket your money and cancel you if you persist in trying to file. He commented that the rate hike (while not paying out a penny) was an amusing method he hadn't seen before and was a clear message for customers to not bother filing claims.
Thanks, Travelers Insurance.
So my new masters are Allstate. They ran a credit check and decided to up my auto premiums 'cause I have a bankruptcy a few years back on my credit report. What, loosing a job, then falling behind, then filing for a BK suddenly makes me a worse driver? Fuck that.
The statistics they use are just so insulting. They must use a correlation, rather than a causation methodology of determining rates, which is just patently unfair. How the fuck does turning 25 or getting marries make me a better driver? How does having a penis make me a worse driver? It doesn't, but there must be a correlation between these factors.
And does anyone else see the horrible disservice of "under-/non-insured insurance" in states that mandate by law having insurance to begin with? Once again, law-abiding people get the shaft twice.
Wow -- what a lucrative business. They've managed to get their business model written into the law books, and we're all getting bent over the barrel.
(And if anyone tows the "driving isn't a right" line, I'm gonna go postal.)
Method of processing duck feet
You would expect to have a credit check if you were getting a loan or a credit card at a bank, right?
Well, for the insurance company, the first few years is like giving you a loan. For an automobile, you're getting anywhere from 20k - 1 million in liability coverage generally, so they want to know if A) you're going to have a catastrophic loss tomorrow, which a correlation has been found between poor credit and more claims, and B) they want to know if you're going to pay your premiums. One of the most common things for a customer to do is to start a policy, make the first payment (as low as the insurance company will allow), and then never make another payment. They have their proof of insurance for 6 months, so they'll just hold on to that until it expires and then go somewhere else and repeat. It's not going to be valid after a month or whatever, but unless a cop checks the computer, nobody will know the difference. It's fairly expensive to start an insurance policy (at least, compared to renewing one), so these type of customers (and there are a LOT) lose money for the insurance company. These customers also tend to have bad credit.
Again, this is something that, to my knowledge, is only used in the initial underwriting process. You may not agree, and I don't necessarily agree, but if you stay with one company you're not going to have to have it done again.
It doesn't help me to think that my father totalled a car every two years through the 70's and State Farm never cancelled him, and here they cancelled me over things that were FAR less impact to their bottom line. Which leads back to the whole idea that they cancelled me not so much because of me, but because they had made bad decisions about who to insure against floods. Which is why it still makes me angry--State Farm wasn't there, because of poor planning on their part and events that by and large were not my fault (10 days without a license was my fault, but didn't mean I was a habitual drunk, running around smashing into people, I simply didn't fill out some paperwork at one point and never got my renewal notice because I'd moved, but they treated me if I was one of these people who couldn't keep a license).
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001