Posted by
CmdrTaco
on from the can-i-expense-one-please dept.
MrMiyagi writes "Apple VP of of Hardware Product Marketing, Greg Joswiak, discusses the new iMac G5's hardware design. Apparently it's light enough to carry around the house, and has special fans that run at low speeds making the cooling very quiet."
Smart Design
by
samtihen
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· Score: 5, Interesting
I think Apple always goes the extra step when designing their products. I think that one of the most interesting parts of this new iMac is the fact that it has air holes in the top of it so that the hot air can rise out. Now why hasn't anyone else thought of that? I mean, my computer has a ton of fans to move air around, but that could definitely be lessened by air slits in the top. Thanks Apple!
Re:Smart Design
by
Amiga+Lover
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· Score: 3, Interesting
>> I'd think that interesting too, maybe, but it's wrong. There are >> no air holes in the top of it.
> Wrong.
You must be the hundredth person I've come across online who looks at that picture and presumes the bottom of the imac is the top, because of the cooling holes. I don't get it. What's so hard to understand about a picture? OK I shouldn't get annoyed just because of what other people think but really, I wonder how much anyone is really THINKING about what they see. Are you all just taking a half second glance at an image and then seeing what you want to without making conscious thought? sheeeeesh!
Re:Smart Design
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 2, Interesting
i think the poster was pointing out that we don't typically see this in many mainstream computer manufacturer's designs.. when in fact we should see it. Why should PC's be so loud when apple can design a 2 inch thick computer that's virtually silent? given the amount of room in a typical pc case why should the 2 inch thick imac be so much quieter when compared to a larger pc? I think that's the point he was trying to make, not that it hasn't really been done before, but it should still be done regardless of how old the idea is. it's a clever design, why not use it? you sir need to chill and just oh.. i don't know, contribute but not be such an ass in the process? sounds good.. then again you are an AC so i guess your reasoning is pretty well explained.
The poster may have been pointing out cooling holes on top ofa computer as a good idea, but it has nothing to do with the iMac. the 2 inch thick imac might be so much quieter, but raising the point of 'cooling holes' that it does not have makes no sense because they are something hes imagined up. The iMac is well engineered in its cooling because of cooling zones that pump air in the bottom and OUT THE BACK.
It is not convection cooled, it does not have cooling holes in the top, and saying "cooling holes are a good idea because the iMac is quiet" is I dunno like saying "cooling holes are a good idea because my cat has white patches" because those two concepts are as equally related.
Re:Smart Design
by
FuzzzyLogik
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· Score: 2, Interesting
Then I point you to the PowerMac G5. If Apple can cool it and make it virtually silent then why can't these big named pc manufacturers? Not only do they do it in silence but they do it with a beautiful case too. Granted sure on a PC some things may need to be changed to allow for a bit more expansion but seriously, it can be done, PC manufacturers are just too lazy and want to make things cheap and crappy, it's really that simple.
Re:Smart Design
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 1, Interesting
Okay, the parent got sufficiently whacked over the head for his silly post.
But I've been wondering, with laptops, could you split the mobo in two, and then put CPU, RAM and GPU together with the Northbridge up there behind the LCD? You could then put a big-ass (think 17" diagonal) passive heatsink on them and use convection cooling (because that half stands upright when you are using the machine). Some clear plastic or something to cover the fins to protect airplane seats...
Would give perhaps as effective cooling as the fans used now, would be silent, and not burn your lap even after long intensive sessions.
Naturally, you'd have Southbridge, drives, battery, keyboard on the lower half of the case. The Southbridge to Northbridge connection (V-Link, HT, MuTIOL, what have you) running through the hinge is the iffy part, but maybe not too iffy.
Any sense in something like this? Done already somewhere?
Re:Smart Design
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 1, Interesting
Apple has traditionally hated fans. The problem is that the computers often needed fans anyway. The first few macs (128k, 512k, and Plus) had vents in the top under the handle and vents on the right and left side along the bottom of the case, but no fan. Kensington started up selling a fan that sat on top of the handle to pull an adequate amount of air through the case. Later macs built in that design included fans. I know the Classic did and I think the SE and SE/30 did.
Apple keeps trying to revive convection cooling, but it doesn't seem to last long. The G4 cube used the idea.
The All-in-One is cool,
by
Hawthorne01
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· Score: 4, Interesting
but I'd love to see a system with the same stats, without the LCD being offered to the education and enterprise markets. That would kick up Apple's market share in a heartbeat. I own a G4 17" iMac and love it, but I know my needs and the needs of the middle school down the road are two different things.
-- "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Re:I have always loved mac stuff,
by
MatSimpsk
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· Score: 2, Interesting
Well, the eMac comes in at just under you $800 threshold
All fine and dandy
by
Udo+Schmitz
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· Score: 3, Interesting
But looking at my iMacDV, or to be more specific listening to my iMacDV I wonder when will Apple be building fanless Macs again? Ever?
Just gimme my 999$ G5 Cube...
Smart Design and Smart Engineering
by
reporter
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· Score: 5, Interesting
The iMac G5 is a full-blown workstation in its own right. It runs UNIX on top of a Power4-based microprocessor. Furthermore, its performance is competitive with the very best desktops based on the new 64-bit x86 processors.
Instead of focusing so much on styling, the marketing droids should show us some stats indicating the percentage of the engineering market that the G5 Macs have. I suspect that the G5 Macs have the highest percentage of the engineering workstation market after the x86 boxes.
Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering
by
bob+beta
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· Score: 2, Interesting
I suspect that the G5 Macs have the highest percentage of the engineering workstation market after the x86 boxes.
Not enough of the high end 'workstation' software has been ported to the Mac for this to be true. A lot of that software, regrettably, migrated over to NT from the UNIX workstations in the mid to late 90's. I doubt if it will migrate to the Mac anytime soon.
Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering
by
huchida
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· Score: 3, Interesting
but you can use firewire-800. You can also cram 4 gb into the PMG5. The bus is also faster.... And you will be able to update the graphics card (which is already better, I should add) and use PCI slots if you ever need to, as well as install a second internal drive... And replace the Superdrive yourself when it's inevitably the first thing to fail.
And you can use whatever monitor you want. I have a Viewsonic 17" LCD and 19" CRT attached to my G5, and both monitors together (and the ADC adaptor) cost less than a 17" Apple studio display. Dual monitor spanning is not even available on the iMac without a hack.
And you don't run the risk of having a pefectly functioning computer attached to a dead monitor some day or vice versa. I inherited an otherwise fine G4 iMac with a broken screen from a friend; Apple refused to repair it under Applecare (it was damaged during a move) and the cost of replacing the swing-arm LCD would be nearly as much as the computer is worth.
Then again, the iMac G5 is a bargain, and it is worth it if you don't need to expand. I would definitely recommend Applecare on any all-in-one system though.
Re:Smart Design and Smart Engineering
by
ScottSpeaks!
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· Score: 3, Interesting
That would be why I said "almost". Of course there are differences. The PowerMac has more expansion potential. The iMac takes less room. The PowerMac has a place to stack a Zip drive on top. The iMac has a display that tilts better than the 17" Studio LCD.
But it has the same number of processors, of the same type, running at the same speed. It has the same size hard drive, and the same class of optical drive. It comes with the same amount of RAM. It has roughly the same size display (17" widescreen, vs. 17" traditional). Most of the major specs match up. And if you unbox one of these new iMacs and set it up next to my 9-month-old PowerMac, most of the things one can do, the other will do about as well. The point being that by the standards of late 2003, this is a rather powerful machine. (And affordable.) Which oughta be good enough for most people.
iMac G4 arm will be missed
by
mariox19
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· Score: 5, Interesting
We found that most people don't end up raising or lowering [the iMac G4 screen]. The big thing is the tilt direction...
Maybe those of us who don't fall into the "most people" category will miss the range of motion available on the iMac G4. I own one now. Occasionally I like to tilt my chair back and slump down. To match that posture, I move the iMac screen down, too. At other times I'm just tired of sitting. I then stand and raise the screen all the way up, tilting it all the way back. I can surf the 'Net comfortably for a little while this way. It's a nice change of pace.
I think the G5 iMac is a great machine, but I'll miss the screen mobility when I get one.
--
quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.
Re:Oft-Overlooked Point
by
John_Booty
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· Score: 4, Interesting
I agree with you.
Serious question, not rhetorical: is there really that much to be learned about cooling a G5? There's only so much heat removal you can do, given a certain amount of space and a CPU which produces a certain amount of heat. I don't know that there's some miracle the Apple design/engineering wizards can really pull out of their proverbial hats on that one. Unless there's some really obvious stuff they're NOT doing at the moment?
I think the thing that leads to a G5 laptop would probably be cooler-running G5 CPUs from IBM, or a newfound desire from Apple to do an unsexy "luggable" laptop. Then again, I suppose the current generation of G5 CPUs would run pretty cool when clocked down to 1 or 1.2ghz, if they really wanted to get one out of the door...
Apple devotees a little miffed
by
SilentChris
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· Score: 4, Interesting
I've spent a lot of time on the Apple forums (I own a new iBook) and the reaction I've seen to the new iMac has been pretty "eh".
The original iMac, G4 cube and even the last iMac (to a certain extent) were elegant. The iPod had a great design because it was functional enough to fit in a small pocket. It doesn't make a very good consumer PC design.
Also, people have been a little miffed by some design choices. Why have all the wires running out the back of the screen instead of the base (I know, I know, wireless keyboard and mouse -- but most people will be hooking a printer up to this thing). Some people are complaining about it not being wall mountable (which would've been a cool high-end feature). Also, from a marketing standpoint, they completely missed the fall school schedule.
For now, I'm quite happy with my iBook. It has become my computer of choice in a house full of computers, and prompted me to buy an iPod. But I wouldn't buy the new iMac.
Re:Apple devotees a little miffed
by
ottffssent
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· Score: 3, Interesting
That's interesting that an Apple-centric crowd would be so unimpressed. I've long faulted Apple for poor (-ly suited to me, if not outright wrong) design choices in the past, and think the new iMac looks quite nice.
I was initially skeptical of the cable layout as well, but upon further consideration think it is actually quite reasonable. For one thing, it's harder to access the back of the base than it is the side of the monitor. If you're never adding or removing devices, it matters very little where the cords plug in, but with this layout it's simple to reach around the corner and plug something in temporarily, and not much more difficult to thread a cable through the guide. For another thing, the cables are more-or-less aligned along the horizontal axis of the machine, so tilting the monitor won't pull on your cables.
You're correct that the design is only elegant until you start throwing peripherals at it, and will lose a lot of its simplicity and coolness with a half-dozen USB devices sticking out of it. However, if the machine's as nice as it looks in a fairly bare setup, and still manages to be at least functional with lots of stuff attached, that's a pretty successful design.
I don't think Firewire800 is necessary, but I am surprised Apple didn't include gigE. I suspect it's primarily to differentiate their product lines, but given the cost difference (a few dollars), it's still surprising they didn't throw it in. Another thing that worries me is the hard drive. Apple claim 25dB(A) v. 28dB(A) for the older iMac design. However, the older imacs had a disturbing tendency to develop rather whiny hard drives after a while, completely shooting their low noise floor and doing it with a high-pitched drone which is way more offensive than fan noise. If the new imacs can maintain their low noise floor in actual use, I'll be quite pleased.
Naturally a final opinion will have to wait until I've commandeered one at an apple store for a while, but if they're physically stable, they look like great replacements for our aging iMac/600s.
Re:Apple devotees a little miffed
by
cowscows
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· Score: 2, Interesting
One of the downsides to Apple's history of innovation is that people begin to expect unrealistic things from them. And all the rumor sites just making crap up doesn't help either. For a lot of people, when they see a picture of this new iMac, if it isn't something so entirely different from anything they've seen before, they're disappointed.
Apple's trying to walk a middle of the line approach here. Use lessons learned in past designs, both by them and by competitors, while also making something distinctly Apple. And a lot of people are upset because the computer on the back of the LCD has been tried before. Of course, a lot of other companies had mp3 players out before the iPod, and look how well that's worked out.
Oh, and a last comment on the cables issue. I've got one of the aluminum cinema displays, which is similar in a lot of ways. Same stand, same basic mount. It has two firewire and two usb ports on the back of it, and honestly, you can hardly even see the cables hanging down behind it. The bottom edge of the monitor is close enough to the desk that you don't really notice the wires that much. If you imagine cables being plugged in to Apple's promo-shots, the mental image is unattractive, because the machine is photographed on a plain white background. In real life, desks are full of stuff, people are used to cables everywhere, and you probably don't even notice them anymore.
--
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
Re:Apple devotees a little miffed
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 1, Interesting
I believe that most people see Apple as one of the greatest industrial design houses ever assembled and get frustrated when Apple does some seemingly questionable things. For example:
1. The vast amount of blank white space below the monitor. Yes, it's probably necessary and it does invoke a relationship with the eMac and iPod, but in many pictures, it simply looks too large and out of place. It could appear better in person so I'm reserving judgment on that.
2. The hard drive and optical drive are mounted on their sides and on an angle. This potentially hinders performance and some say introduces a higher rate of errors and drive failure. Additionally, the orientation of the drives is contrary to the principles that Steve Jobs and Jonathan Ive said were critical in designing the sunflower/swing arm/luxo/lamp -styled iMac. This design
3. The optical drive is a slot-loading drive most likely used in Apple's laptops. Slot loading laptop optical drives mounted on their side severely inhibits the performance. Compare the read and write speeds of the eMac and the new iMac. The eMac has a better optical drive.
4. The GPU is pretty lethargic and should have been beefier to accommodate games like Doom3... especially since it's not upgradeable. I'm willing to ignore this though since the Mac gaming community is small and most power users will be buying PowerMacs. Still, it would be nice if they utilized an upgradeable GPU like the new laptop standards being created by ATI and Nvidia. That would give Apple the best of both worlds. Low cost and upgradeability.
5. Lower Front Side bus speed. Its still uncertain how much the lower FSB will affect performance since the memory isn't dual channel, but I still hate to see things purposefully crippled like what they do with the GPUs to prevent monitor spanning.
6. Lack of Gigabit Ethernet. Yeah, it's likely the hard drive and other components would limit the performance of gigabit ethernet, it still would have been nice to get a potentially higher performance NIC especially since the cost of doing to is probably next to nothing.
7. Lack of Firewire 800. This doesn't bother me too much as I don't think most people in the iMac's target market would use it or be able to take advantage of the higher speeds. However, it should probably have been included to help legitimize and promote the standard more. It's difficult to find drives and other devices utilizing the standard and the more machines out there, the more peripheral manufacturers are likely to produce products for it. My fear is that USB 3.0 or some other inferior spec will end up replacing firewire 800. Look to USB 2.0 and Firewire 400 as an example.
8. Finally, there are a few design flaws that are nit-picking, but still there. Why is the power button placed below all of the cables. It should be placed on the top of all the ports to prevent the cables from getting in the way. As it is now, if you have a lot of cables attached, you have to find your way through them to turn the machine on. Granted cable management may help alleviate this issues, but I still see it as design common sense that went ignored.
Overall, I'm quite happy with the G5 iMac and may end up getting one. My complaints are simply observations I make where I believe Apple went astray. Again, it's the fact that Apple always comes so close to perfection that make the flaws stand out even more. I just wish someone would get answers as to why Apple made certain design choices like the FSB, GPU, Gigabit, and most importantly why they contradicted themselves by throwing the computer on the back and mounting the optical drives vertically.
Wow, but will it work
by
pjbgravely
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· Score: 2, Interesting
The small size is stunning. It looks like a must have item for the rich kids. I hope for heat sake that they are under-clocking the processor. But what's up with the low memory size?
Apple is very strongly tying the new iMac to the iPod. The idea is to leverage the tremendous success of the iPod to show Wintel users that Apple also makes great personal computers.
While the original iMac, G4 Cube, and Luxo iMac were impressive feats of design, they also screamed out, "This is an Apple product. I'm different!"
The new iMac is elegant and well-designed, but it takes a much more subtle approach. It is less of an ad for Apple. I think the reason is that Apple wants to provide Wintel users with a computer that is like the iPod - elegant, highly useful, and understated.
Whether they'll say it or not, many corporate and small business customers have stayed away from Apple hardware for years because since the advent of the bondi blue iMac, Macs have been just too "different'. It makes a lot of people uncomfortable to go too far away from familiar design.
Apple is taking a very measured and cautious approach with business customers, and they probably will never come out and directly say it, but the new iPod-inspired design is likely intended less to appeal to traditional Mac users than it is to entice Switchers.
I think Apple will sell boatloads of the new iMac, and I'm very tempted to snag one of the 20" versions myself.
I call troll on this one...
by
CaptainPinko
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· Score: 1, Interesting
NeXt cube was a long time ago so I wouldn't say that particular situation is relevant anymore
How many home users actually transport files? Most of them just work on their own computer.
If they need transfer files to work more likely than not they'll just e-mail themselves.
If they want to transfer onto a physical medium the can burn a cdr/cd-rw with any of the iMacs and burn dvd-r/dvd-rw on the top two models. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if more computers had CD-ROM or better than have floppy drives.
Who actually ever uses floppy disks anymore? I just use them to boot my old P.O.S. boxes I hobby on
There is USB for your pendrive (or whatever you want to call it) which is probably the most popular current transportable medium and leagues better than floppy drives.
I don't recall there being any floppy drives on any of the SUN UltraSPARC boxes at my school's lab and they are at least several years old.
I just went to Dell.com>Small Buisness>Desktops>Dimension and it doesn't look like any (let alone most or all) come with a floppy drive either.
You can get a USB floppy drive so that you can read your floppies without ruinng the sexy design of the iMac for everyone else with the added bulk.
-- Your CPU is not doing anything else, at least do something.
Re:Shoppers will reject this
by
evn
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· Score: 2, Interesting
Are x86 manufacturers are selling 10kg 20" tablet PCs with aluminum stands and no battery now?
I think they'll say "Nice LCD display but where's the computer?" and that is kinda the point.
The speakers...!
by
Atomic+Frog
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· Score: 2, Interesting
Get left out too often.
Actually, Apple are not the first to try this trick. Downward firing stereo speakers were also on my old IBM Thinkpad 770X.
Let me tell you, they work amazingly well, especially considering they are tiny 2W laptop speakers. Too bad IBM has taken a step backwards with the new "T" series. That is the crappiest audio I've ever heard on any laptop, and it isn't even stereo.
Re:100 times on the blackboard!
by
jedrek
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· Score: 4, Interesting
In otherwords, Apple can't give people what they want (midrange desktop box), because they are too busy gouging someone else (low-end pros).
Gouging? Where? Show me another pre-assembled, pre-configured 1.8ghz 64-bit machine with a similar form factor, 17" widescreen LCD, running at 20-30db - all for $1299. The truth is, this machine is all most "Photoshop types" need - it's more than enough (after a memory upgrade) for anything other than large print projects.
I think Apple flat out doesn't want to dilute its brand. They sell expensive, great looking computers with excellent customer service. They're not Dell, they're not HP, they're Apple, plain and simple. Remember when they used to license clones? Remember how big of a flop it was? They're nto going back there, at least not until they have to, and they may never have to.
I've been a Mac hater since '88, but this a really, really nice machine at a great price. I'm actually getting one right now and if OSX is as good as people have been saying, I'm getting one for my mom next year.
Re:100 times on the blackboard!
by
IntlHarvester
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· Score: 2, Interesting
Just to make myself clear -- the iMac pricing is fine in my book -- just due to the formfactor its not the machine for everyone.
The "gouging" is the fact that Apple's cheapest headless machine is $2000. That's a huge premium to pay if you just want something better than a bottom-scraper video card or an insurance slot.
I just don't buy the idea that a good-looking $1K desktop would "dilute the brand" any more than the eMac or iBook has. It would still be more premium (in price and looks) than a Dell. And I think it would sell a lot better than the iMac has.
Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle.
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LighthouseJ
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· Score: 3, Interesting
Actually, I think they allow people growing up Amish to experience technology at 18 years old. That way they let everyone make their own conscious choice to leave the Amish lifestyle or embrace it. If they ever want to come back, they can but they have to commit themselves 100% to the Amish lifestyle.
Since 1999, I have had a Blue-and-White G3 minitower. It's been lovely...no hardware problems yet. I upgraded it once, to add RAM and a bigger HD.
Since then, there have been no compelling reasons to get a newer Mac. The Blue-and-White was by-and-large a "future proof" machine, like it was advertised to my bosses at the Dot-Com I used to work at. The machine was loaned to me for telecommuting and when the company went bust I was able to buy it from them at fire-sale prices with part of my last paycheck.
The new iMac is the first Mac that has really screamed "UPGRADE TO ME!" in a while. My Blue-and-White is getting long in the tooth now, and even with 512MB RAM it struggles a little.
Do any of you realize just how hot this machine will be once the first 64-bit version of MacOS comes out???? No, I don't mean cooling problems, I mean hot as in bitchen. Agreed, they should have gone with a better Nvidia video chipset, (but I suspect the 5200 is a choice for power draw and heat as well as low price) and it should have come standard with more RAM, but dig: it's still pretty good.
And let me point out something else. Compare this all-in-one machine to the 32-bit Gateway Profile 4, which is no longer a production machine and is selling through Gateway's site as a refurb. Los Angeles Valley College has a computer lab full of these low-end machines, bought when they were still new.
Even as a refurbished machine, this is selling for $1,200 US. This is with Windows XP Home (not Pro, Home) and Works (not Office) pre-installed, a basic tray-load CD-ROM, Intel "Extreme Graphics" (anyone who's worked with it knows how laughable this term is) and 10/100 Ethernet.
Now look at the iMac G5's specs. The low-end machine is only $100 US more expensive new than the refurbed Gateway Profile 4. For this, you get a CD-RW/DVD-ROM combo drive, Firewire to go with your USB, (and I don't know whether the Gateway POS has USB2 or USB 1.1 USB ports) and a wide-screen 17" TFT as opposed to a regular 4:3 17" TFT. Spend $200 more and you get a DVD-/+RW "Superdrive."
Yes, you pay a premium for Apple products. However, as you can see, the premium isn't very much at all. This is a 64-bit xNIX workstation we are talking about here. For only $300 more than a steaming cow-flop from Gateway. (I know from whence I speak about the Gateway: I have seen too many of those Profile 4 machines in the computer lab with "out of order" signs taped in front of them.) Apple builds things, by and large, to last. And yes, they design them to look pretty damn cool.
Maybe next June I can convince the remainders of my family to chip in on one of these as a grad present.
-- Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
"... and a wide-screen 17" TFT as opposed to a regular 4:3 17" TFT"
A 4:3 screen has more surface area than a 16:10 screen of the same diagonal size. (Because it's closer to a square.) 4:3 is about 140 square inches; 16:10 is about 130.
Re:Oft-Overlooked Point
by
King_TJ
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· Score: 3, Interesting
Actually, I thought I read someplace that the G5 processors don't generate quite as much heat as some of the latest AMD and Intel offerings.... The main reasons Apple has that huge water-cooled radiator gizmo are because (A) it's very quiet, and (B) for all intentions and purposes, they're really running what's basically a 2.0Ghz CPU with IBM sanctioned and properly engineered "overclocking" applied to it.
That being said though, they certainly *do* generate lots of heat, and don't seem appropriate for use in a laptop at all. (Of course, neither did the non-mobile versions of Intel's P4 CPU, yet some vendors shoehorned them into laptops anyway.) As others have said, surely Apple is just waiting on IBM to redesign the G5 so they have a version with lower power consumption and heat generation, suitable for mobile use. As with practically all CPUs, the desktop version comes first - followed by "mobile" versions much further down the road.
I think it's probably *possible* to build a laptop with an existing G5 CPU in it. You'd have to make the laptop fairly thick and heavy though, which would never fly as a Powerbook upgrade. People buy them largely because they're lightweight and thin. You'd also end up with some kind of cooling contraption like peltier junctions transferring heat over to a large plate with multiple cooling fans blowing on it. It surely wouldn't be a "quiet" laptop.... (But neither are Sager's "gaming/performance laptops" - and some people still buy those.)
Re:No explanation for crappy video card
by
IntlHarvester
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· Score: 2, Interesting
> The iMac has never been a gaming machine,
If Joe Yuppie goes and buys a shiny new Mac, he has the reasonable expectation that the kids will be able to fire up Doom3 or Halo and get decent play out of it. That's what people do with home computers -- play games.
If that's not the case, he might think "Damn I spent a lot of money on that Apple, and the kids hated it. Next time I'm getting something else." He is probably not going to think "Next time I'm dropping $2500 to get a G5 with the PDQ9000 video card."
The video card in these things seems to violate the Apple principle of "It just works".
I've been using the H-K iSub subwoofer with my old G3 iMac for years now and I really like it. But, H-K stopped selling it separately when Apple took the speakers out of the iMac with the table lamp design.
I wonder if it would work with the new flat-panel design since they have put the speaker back into the design. I've searched around a bit for an answer, but haven't found any information.
I suppose I should just wait until it's in the stores and bring my iSub down and plug it in.
Re:100 times on the blackboard!
by
mrchaotica
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· Score: 3, Interesting
How would making a new Cube, or a new pizzabox dilute their brand? They've made headless consumer-grade Macs before! We just want them to do it again.
I don't think they ought to make a cheaper (single proc) G5 tower; I think they ought to make an "entertainment pc," which would be a small form-factor one with just a little bit more expandibility than the iMac, because it wouldn't be all-in-one. Imagine a Mac version of a Shuttle PC, or a 2 inch think hi-fi equipment-looking one (i.e., a consumer-grade Xserve) with one PCIe slot.
Either way, stick an ATi All-In-Wonder in the PCIe slot, make a video/PVR complement to iTunes, and voila! -- instant competitor to Windows Media Center Edition. You could even bundle it with one of those 30" Cinema displays! And heck, as an afterthought, if you just happened to use a 9800 for that video card, you'd have a kick-ass gaming machine too!
Not only would this not cut into "professional" Mac sales (it still wouldn't be that expandable, and wouldn't have fast, dual CPUs), but it would still be true to "Apple brand" because it would be continuing the heritage of the pizzaboxes and the Cube.
--
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
How about a used/refurbished Mac?
by
soldeed
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· Score: 3, Interesting
Power Max computers carries an extensive selection of quality used and Apple certified reconditioned Macs in all models! You can pick up used ibooks, imacs, G4 graphite towers, even the G4 cube, at bargain prices! Go now! Look at all the perfectly good used macs $500.00 and up!
Almost perfect for a work desk
by
ducomputergeek
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· Score: 2, Interesting
This is nearly perfect for an office enviroment. It has a small footprint and elegant "serious" look to it. I've had businesses look at macintosh iMac's before and say they look "Too playful" even though the machines did everything they needed without spending more on PowerMacs.
I've been using a powerbook because of its power and small profile for a couple years, but having a small profile and power of a G5 processor as well as price will make my next powerbook arguement much more difficult since I can get more at half the price.
-- "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
Re:100 times on the blackboard!
by
Lars+T.
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· Score: 2, Interesting
Just by comparing the headless Mac you describe and the one IntlHarvester describes, we see why Apple would fail if they brought out one. 75% of people wanting a HLM would complain that it isn't the HLM they wanted.
--
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
Re:100 times on the blackboard!
by
IntlHarvester
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· Score: 2, Interesting
Sounds like the exact same machine to me. The lowend guy gets a decent entry $1K box with a 3rd party CRT, and the high-end guy gets a PVR with a $$$$ Apple display. All new markets for Apple. Thus the incredible magic of a simple PCIe slot and letting the user pick their video card and display.
(I still have faith that Apple will introduce such a machine as soon as G5 production gets ramped up.)
Re:This is what Jobs...
by
ljavelin
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· Score: 3, Interesting
Excellent question.
The original problem with a flat-screen design was that it was just too bulky. The cooling system and power supply made it into a 6 inch thick unit - and to most people, 6 inches thick ain't a flatscreen.
I'd have to agree with Jobs - if you can't do it right, don't do it.
On the flipside, the new unit is nice. I just wish it'd come in more colors.
This bears repeating
by
theolein
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· Score: 2, Interesting
I've found someone who will buy my old G4Powerbook 667MHz for $1200. If that isn't a good resale value, then I don't know what is.
Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle.
by
good+soldier+svejk
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· Score: 2, Interesting
They allow all Amish people to experience technology every day, they just control what technology. Different groups allow different things, but technologies such as the wheel and woven textiles are pretty ubiquitous. Buttons (clothing fasteners) are not allowed in some communities, but others allow cell phones (at least in barns).
Anyway, the phenomenon you re referring to is called rumspringa.
-- It is cowardly, and a betrayal of whatever it means to be a Jew, to act as a white man
-James Baldwin
Re:Cool, out of my Amish lifestyle.
by
jht
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· Score: 2, Interesting
My understanding is that if they leave during or after rumspringa, that's fine - they're still family and all. But if they recommit to the church and then drop out, they are shunned as a result.
Basically, I think it's a case of until they choose to commit to the Amish life as adults, departure is OK. Obviously not hoped for, but OK. But once you're in, you're expected to remain.
That said, most are said to stay in their faith.
--
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
Mac OS X ~= WinXP Pro
by
bill_mcgonigle
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· Score: 3, Interesting
This is with Windows XP Home
Don't forget, Mac OS X includes most of the features that differentiate Windows XP Pro from Home - IPSec, Domain Support, Webserver, Multi-language support, SNMP, Simple TCP services, network monitor, etc.
This is important to anyone who does any telecommuting which is probably a significant subset of the iMac market (vs. eMac market).
So go ahead and add in XP Pro when you're doing the price comparison - Mac OS X has more value than XP Home.
-- My God, it's Full of Source! OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
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I think Apple always goes the extra step when designing their products. I think that one of the most interesting parts of this new iMac is the fact that it has air holes in the top of it so that the hot air can rise out. Now why hasn't anyone else thought of that? I mean, my computer has a ton of fans to move air around, but that could definitely be lessened by air slits in the top. Thanks Apple!
but I'd love to see a system with the same stats, without the LCD being offered to the education and enterprise markets. That would kick up Apple's market share in a heartbeat. I own a G4 17" iMac and love it, but I know my needs and the needs of the middle school down the road are two different things.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Well, the eMac comes in at just under you $800 threshold
Just gimme my 999$ G5 Cube ...
Instead of focusing so much on styling, the marketing droids should show us some stats indicating the percentage of the engineering market that the G5 Macs have. I suspect that the G5 Macs have the highest percentage of the engineering workstation market after the x86 boxes.
Maybe those of us who don't fall into the "most people" category will miss the range of motion available on the iMac G4. I own one now. Occasionally I like to tilt my chair back and slump down. To match that posture, I move the iMac screen down, too. At other times I'm just tired of sitting. I then stand and raise the screen all the way up, tilting it all the way back. I can surf the 'Net comfortably for a little while this way. It's a nice change of pace.
I think the G5 iMac is a great machine, but I'll miss the screen mobility when I get one.
quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.
I agree with you.
Serious question, not rhetorical: is there really that much to be learned about cooling a G5? There's only so much heat removal you can do, given a certain amount of space and a CPU which produces a certain amount of heat. I don't know that there's some miracle the Apple design/engineering wizards can really pull out of their proverbial hats on that one. Unless there's some really obvious stuff they're NOT doing at the moment?
I think the thing that leads to a G5 laptop would probably be cooler-running G5 CPUs from IBM, or a newfound desire from Apple to do an unsexy "luggable" laptop. Then again, I suppose the current generation of G5 CPUs would run pretty cool when clocked down to 1 or 1.2ghz, if they really wanted to get one out of the door...
OtakuBooty.com: Smart, funny, sexy nerds.
I've spent a lot of time on the Apple forums (I own a new iBook) and the reaction I've seen to the new iMac has been pretty "eh".
The original iMac, G4 cube and even the last iMac (to a certain extent) were elegant. The iPod had a great design because it was functional enough to fit in a small pocket. It doesn't make a very good consumer PC design.
Also, people have been a little miffed by some design choices. Why have all the wires running out the back of the screen instead of the base (I know, I know, wireless keyboard and mouse -- but most people will be hooking a printer up to this thing). Some people are complaining about it not being wall mountable (which would've been a cool high-end feature). Also, from a marketing standpoint, they completely missed the fall school schedule.
For now, I'm quite happy with my iBook. It has become my computer of choice in a house full of computers, and prompted me to buy an iPod. But I wouldn't buy the new iMac.
The small size is stunning. It looks like a must have item for the rich kids. I hope for heat sake that they are under-clocking the processor. But what's up with the low memory size?
Star Trek, there maybe hope.
While the original iMac, G4 Cube, and Luxo iMac were impressive feats of design, they also screamed out, "This is an Apple product. I'm different!"
The new iMac is elegant and well-designed, but it takes a much more subtle approach. It is less of an ad for Apple. I think the reason is that Apple wants to provide Wintel users with a computer that is like the iPod - elegant, highly useful, and understated.
Whether they'll say it or not, many corporate and small business customers have stayed away from Apple hardware for years because since the advent of the bondi blue iMac, Macs have been just too "different'. It makes a lot of people uncomfortable to go too far away from familiar design.
Apple is taking a very measured and cautious approach with business customers, and they probably will never come out and directly say it, but the new iPod-inspired design is likely intended less to appeal to traditional Mac users than it is to entice Switchers.
I think Apple will sell boatloads of the new iMac, and I'm very tempted to snag one of the 20" versions myself.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
Your CPU is not doing anything else, at least do something.
Are x86 manufacturers are selling 10kg 20" tablet PCs with aluminum stands and no battery now?
I think they'll say "Nice LCD display but where's the computer?" and that is kinda the point.
Get left out too often.
Actually, Apple are not the first to try this trick. Downward firing stereo speakers were also on my old IBM Thinkpad 770X.
Let me tell you, they work amazingly well, especially considering they are tiny 2W laptop speakers.
Too bad IBM has taken a step backwards with the new "T" series. That is the crappiest audio I've ever heard on any laptop, and it isn't even stereo.
In otherwords, Apple can't give people what they want (midrange desktop box), because they are too busy gouging someone else (low-end pros).
Gouging? Where? Show me another pre-assembled, pre-configured 1.8ghz 64-bit machine with a similar form factor, 17" widescreen LCD, running at 20-30db - all for $1299. The truth is, this machine is all most "Photoshop types" need - it's more than enough (after a memory upgrade) for anything other than large print projects.
I think Apple flat out doesn't want to dilute its brand. They sell expensive, great looking computers with excellent customer service. They're not Dell, they're not HP, they're Apple, plain and simple. Remember when they used to license clones? Remember how big of a flop it was? They're nto going back there, at least not until they have to, and they may never have to.
I've been a Mac hater since '88, but this a really, really nice machine at a great price. I'm actually getting one right now and if OSX is as good as people have been saying, I'm getting one for my mom next year.
Just to make myself clear -- the iMac pricing is fine in my book -- just due to the formfactor its not the machine for everyone.
The "gouging" is the fact that Apple's cheapest headless machine is $2000. That's a huge premium to pay if you just want something better than a bottom-scraper video card or an insurance slot.
I just don't buy the idea that a good-looking $1K desktop would "dilute the brand" any more than the eMac or iBook has. It would still be more premium (in price and looks) than a Dell. And I think it would sell a lot better than the iMac has.
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
Actually, I think they allow people growing up Amish to experience technology at 18 years old. That way they let everyone make their own conscious choice to leave the Amish lifestyle or embrace it. If they ever want to come back, they can but they have to commit themselves 100% to the Amish lifestyle.
Since then, there have been no compelling reasons to get a newer Mac. The Blue-and-White was by-and-large a "future proof" machine, like it was advertised to my bosses at the Dot-Com I used to work at. The machine was loaned to me for telecommuting and when the company went bust I was able to buy it from them at fire-sale prices with part of my last paycheck.
The new iMac is the first Mac that has really screamed "UPGRADE TO ME!" in a while. My Blue-and-White is getting long in the tooth now, and even with 512MB RAM it struggles a little.
Do any of you realize just how hot this machine will be once the first 64-bit version of MacOS comes out???? No, I don't mean cooling problems, I mean hot as in bitchen. Agreed, they should have gone with a better Nvidia video chipset, (but I suspect the 5200 is a choice for power draw and heat as well as low price) and it should have come standard with more RAM, but dig: it's still pretty good.
And let me point out something else. Compare this all-in-one machine to the 32-bit Gateway Profile 4, which is no longer a production machine and is selling through Gateway's site as a refurb. Los Angeles Valley College has a computer lab full of these low-end machines, bought when they were still new.
Even as a refurbished machine, this is selling for $1,200 US. This is with Windows XP Home (not Pro, Home) and Works (not Office) pre-installed, a basic tray-load CD-ROM, Intel "Extreme Graphics" (anyone who's worked with it knows how laughable this term is) and 10/100 Ethernet.
Now look at the iMac G5's specs. The low-end machine is only $100 US more expensive new than the refurbed Gateway Profile 4. For this, you get a CD-RW/DVD-ROM combo drive, Firewire to go with your USB, (and I don't know whether the Gateway POS has USB2 or USB 1.1 USB ports) and a wide-screen 17" TFT as opposed to a regular 4:3 17" TFT. Spend $200 more and you get a DVD-/+RW "Superdrive."
Yes, you pay a premium for Apple products. However, as you can see, the premium isn't very much at all. This is a 64-bit xNIX workstation we are talking about here. For only $300 more than a steaming cow-flop from Gateway. (I know from whence I speak about the Gateway: I have seen too many of those Profile 4 machines in the computer lab with "out of order" signs taped in front of them.) Apple builds things, by and large, to last. And yes, they design them to look pretty damn cool.
Maybe next June I can convince the remainders of my family to chip in on one of these as a grad present.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
Actually, I thought I read someplace that the G5 processors don't generate quite as much heat as some of the latest AMD and Intel offerings.... The main reasons Apple has that huge water-cooled radiator gizmo are because (A) it's very quiet, and (B) for all intentions and purposes, they're really running what's basically a 2.0Ghz CPU with IBM sanctioned and properly engineered "overclocking" applied to it.
That being said though, they certainly *do* generate lots of heat, and don't seem appropriate for use in a laptop at all. (Of course, neither did the non-mobile versions of Intel's P4 CPU, yet some vendors shoehorned them into laptops anyway.) As others have said, surely Apple is just waiting on IBM to redesign the G5 so they have a version with lower power consumption and heat generation, suitable for mobile use. As with practically all CPUs, the desktop version comes first - followed by "mobile" versions much further down the road.
I think it's probably *possible* to build a laptop with an existing G5 CPU in it. You'd have to make the laptop fairly thick and heavy though, which would never fly as a Powerbook upgrade. People buy them largely because they're lightweight and thin. You'd also end up with some kind of cooling contraption like peltier junctions transferring heat over to a large plate with multiple cooling fans blowing on it. It surely wouldn't be a "quiet" laptop.... (But neither are Sager's "gaming/performance laptops" - and some people still buy those.)
> The iMac has never been a gaming machine,
If Joe Yuppie goes and buys a shiny new Mac, he has the reasonable expectation that the kids will be able to fire up Doom3 or Halo and get decent play out of it. That's what people do with home computers -- play games.
If that's not the case, he might think "Damn I spent a lot of money on that Apple, and the kids hated it. Next time I'm getting something else." He is probably not going to think "Next time I'm dropping $2500 to get a G5 with the PDQ9000 video card."
The video card in these things seems to violate the Apple principle of "It just works".
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
I've been using the H-K iSub subwoofer with my old G3 iMac for years now and I really like it. But, H-K stopped selling it separately when Apple took the speakers out of the iMac with the table lamp design.
I wonder if it would work with the new flat-panel design since they have put the speaker back into the design. I've searched around a bit for an answer, but haven't found any information.
I suppose I should just wait until it's in the stores and bring my iSub down and plug it in.
How would making a new Cube, or a new pizzabox dilute their brand? They've made headless consumer-grade Macs before! We just want them to do it again.
I don't think they ought to make a cheaper (single proc) G5 tower; I think they ought to make an "entertainment pc," which would be a small form-factor one with just a little bit more expandibility than the iMac, because it wouldn't be all-in-one. Imagine a Mac version of a Shuttle PC, or a 2 inch think hi-fi equipment-looking one (i.e., a consumer-grade Xserve) with one PCIe slot.
Either way, stick an ATi All-In-Wonder in the PCIe slot, make a video/PVR complement to iTunes, and voila! -- instant competitor to Windows Media Center Edition. You could even bundle it with one of those 30" Cinema displays! And heck, as an afterthought, if you just happened to use a 9800 for that video card, you'd have a kick-ass gaming machine too!
Not only would this not cut into "professional" Mac sales (it still wouldn't be that expandable, and wouldn't have fast, dual CPUs), but it would still be true to "Apple brand" because it would be continuing the heritage of the pizzaboxes and the Cube.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Power Max computers carries an extensive selection of quality used and Apple certified reconditioned Macs in all models! You can pick up used ibooks, imacs, G4 graphite towers, even the G4 cube, at bargain prices! Go now! Look at all the perfectly good used macs $500.00 and up!
I've been using a powerbook because of its power and small profile for a couple years, but having a small profile and power of a G5 processor as well as price will make my next powerbook arguement much more difficult since I can get more at half the price.
"The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
Just by comparing the headless Mac you describe and the one IntlHarvester describes, we see why Apple would fail if they brought out one. 75% of people wanting a HLM would complain that it isn't the HLM they wanted.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
Sounds like the exact same machine to me. The lowend guy gets a decent entry $1K box with a 3rd party CRT, and the high-end guy gets a PVR with a $$$$ Apple display. All new markets for Apple. Thus the incredible magic of a simple PCIe slot and letting the user pick their video card and display.
(I still have faith that Apple will introduce such a machine as soon as G5 production gets ramped up.)
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
Excellent question.
The original problem with a flat-screen design was that it was just too bulky. The cooling system and power supply made it into a 6 inch thick unit - and to most people, 6 inches thick ain't a flatscreen.
I'd have to agree with Jobs - if you can't do it right, don't do it.
On the flipside, the new unit is nice. I just wish it'd come in more colors.
I've found someone who will buy my old G4Powerbook 667MHz for $1200. If that isn't a good resale value, then I don't know what is.
They allow all Amish people to experience technology every day, they just control what technology. Different groups allow different things, but technologies such as the wheel and woven textiles are pretty ubiquitous. Buttons (clothing fasteners) are not allowed in some communities, but others allow cell phones (at least in barns).
Anyway, the phenomenon you re referring to is called rumspringa.
It is cowardly, and a betrayal of whatever it means to be a Jew, to act as a white man
-James Baldwin
My understanding is that if they leave during or after rumspringa, that's fine - they're still family and all. But if they recommit to the church and then drop out, they are shunned as a result.
Basically, I think it's a case of until they choose to commit to the Amish life as adults, departure is OK. Obviously not hoped for, but OK. But once you're in, you're expected to remain.
That said, most are said to stay in their faith.
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
This is with Windows XP Home
Don't forget, Mac OS X includes most of the features that differentiate Windows XP Pro from Home - IPSec, Domain Support, Webserver, Multi-language support, SNMP, Simple TCP services, network monitor, etc.
This is important to anyone who does any telecommuting which is probably a significant subset of the iMac market (vs. eMac market).
So go ahead and add in XP Pro when you're doing the price comparison - Mac OS X has more value than XP Home.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)