Slashdot Mirror
Endorse EDRI's Statement Against Data Retention
Ville Oksanen writes "Privacy International (PI) and European Digital Rights (EDRI) have published their joint answer to the consultation on mandatory data retention. The European Commission asked for public comments on a proposed retention regime across Europe between 12 and 36 months for all traffic data generated by using fixed and mobile telephony and Internet. As Statewatch puts it: 'This is a proposal so intrusive that Ashcroft, Ridge and company can only dream about it, exceeding even the U.S. Patriot Act.'
EDRI and PI are currently collecting endorsements from organizations and companies for their stamement here. This is unfortunately not enough to stop the process - expecially more should be done in the member states, which ultimately decide the fate of the proposal. So contact your local politicians today!"
The ability to record our movements, intrests, communications will in the future make it possible to really control the population from itself.
No surprise here. Seeing hoow privacy issues are sought to be handled in the US and how more and more of US (mal)practices come over to us (i.e. Europe) every day, there's nothing to be surprised at.
What we need to do is hold our ground and not let these things happen. Same holds for software patents and the like.
Freedom also means you are free to stand up and defend your rights. What we don't defend today may be lost tomorrow. And yes, that's too late. It's always easier [revent than to abolish later.
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
Since /. is US centric, and this appears to be an EU matter, why would they give a rat's ass what most of us have to say on the matter?
/. visitors give a rat's ass about US matters?
For the same reason european
In this case, the reason might be: The US government might get ideas of going the same way if this proposal gets through.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
Oh, rest assured, I'm sure that US.government already has these ideas. My guess is their either waiting for the election to be over, or for the next crisis to shoehorn it in.
If that will come to happen, I will invest my money to all storage companies. Who can store all records of web, email and instant messenger logs? Is it user who is responsible to store all data (including spam email)? Or is it ISP's and teleoperators?
That will be huge amount of data!
Ah, I see it's still too early in the morning for me.. :-) Some wild misunderstanding going on there in my parent post. To give a more proper answer -- Slashdot is visited by heaps of europeans, so it could still be interesting for them (and Slashdot will with this article catch the attention of many europeans). I doubt they'll visit Slashdot looking for opinions though.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
Isn't it amazing how all this crap gets put through, even though most of the voters are against the proposal the politicians that are supposed to be our representatives in parliment just don't care and put it through anyway.
They keep up this illusion that we are a 'free' country, living in a 'democracy' but things like this just show how bad things really are. Used to be they would snoop and we all know they did, but they pretended they didn't for sake of negative publicity. Now they (the government) are showing how little the voters views really count. They don't need to worry about what we want, they just swing the terrorism card and pretend its all for our good, Big brother 'looking after our best intrests.' How nice of them.
If at first you DON'T succeed, Skydiving is NOT for YOU!!
I can't help wondering how they are going to implement this just from the related information point of view. Sure GSM traffic seems trackable via the standards IMSI/IMSE. But how are they going to relate internet traffic to an individual. The would also need to capture DHCP logs etc, etc. It might be easy to capture and store all the data but without something to pull it all together, its could be just a waste of hard disk space
Is it even physically possible to store that much data?
If I stop deleting stuff on my hard drive and archive everything i d/l, it would fill up in a month. Multiply that by 12 or 36 and then, am I supposed to buy a 12-36 harddrives with taxes?
And that doesnt even begin to include all the voice traffic I'm responsible for and mountains of data I d/l via online gaming.
I call bullshit, this is just some fascists wet dream.
Better start to keep your own detailed records of everything.
Log who visits what websites on your computer, every bank transfer you make keep careful notes, you may be required to prove everything you ever did.
Several years ago, I was up for an interview with a company in Holland who had already got a government (not EU) grant to start Internet snooping which they were intending to extend to SMS and eventually voice.
And a lot of snooping already happens in the UK, plus we have more CCTV watching our every move than any other country in the world. This has, of course, dramatically reduced the amount of crime and petty crime we see and we must now be the most pleasant and safest country in the world in which to bring up children. It's getting so good, we will soon be emptying our prisons - which I predict will become quaint tourist destinations at which outsourced Asian tourists can wonder. We live in Arcadia!
Oh joy, oh joy that we should have more snooping to make our lives so much better! We should do away with envelopes or sealed packages and ban curtains or blinds and have web cams in every room (discreetly pointed away from the toilet perhaps).
We could, at last, realise the communist utopia of living like a termite colony. And look how efficient they are! The future beckons comrades, embrace, embrace!!
Did he inhale?
I'm reading a lot of "We can't let that happen" on message boards when it comes to such things. As a non-American anti-Bush propagandist (yes, I like to be a shitdisturber ;)) I often rant and rage about the current state of the US. But now that the same stupid ideas hit my own continent I'm at a loss what about to do. What CAN we do?
I'm really not the pessimistic type most of the time when it comes to personal stuff. But when it involves the gathering of the people I'm pessimistic like hell. Because I know that we almost can't change anything about this stuff.
Let's be honest most of us try to survive. Not in the old fashioned "hunt for food" way but in a modern society where it's not only our body that must survive but our mind as well. Most of us try to stay the heck out of things that could get us in trouble (understandably). And most of us try to not concern ourselves with things we deem not so important. And this is "not so important" for a lot of people because "I'm not a criminal so why should this make me nervous".
So my question to the /. community, which is a certain elite and not a gathering of your average Joe, what can we from a realistic point of view do? Is there a way to get your average Joe to actually write his political representative?
"The ability to record our movements, intrests, communications will in the future make it possible to really control the population from itself."
That's what the chip in the foreheads for.
America needs this also because of the communications that led up to 9/11. Just like we went after Iraq as a result of 9/11, we need to monitor all communications as well.
Just the small fact that the Internet doesn't know borders. Send mail to a European server? Buy something from a Europe over the Net? Your messages and transactions get stored. IIRC European ISPs are vehemently against this, for obvious reasons, and law enforcement isn't thrilled either. It's populist scaremongering politicians who are behind this crap.
bork.cc domain for sale. Offers to bork|at|bork.cc
...in the European country of your choice, too.
The main driving force behind these kind of proposals are mainly the center and right of the political spectrum. Just as Bolkenstein (former comissioner and right wing liberal(dutch 'VVD')) introduced the dreaded software patents, so will other right winged.
The amount of energy put into the actions to counteract the european legislators (just like the action against software patents) is huge, but in the end things usually pay off only half, or not at all.
By using your right to choose and elect, and choosing based upon the decisions made by those politicians (pro- or con- the issues you are for/against) you can deal with this thing preemptively.
In the meantime, try to live with the harsh reality but never forget who put this in your lap.
Slashdot: stuff for news, nerds that matter, matter for news, stuff that nerd
Since /. is US centric, and this appears to be an EU matter, why would they give a rat's ass what most of us have to say on the matter?
Well, I thought the tag line was News for Nerds. Stuff that matters. Nothing about the US in there.
Technology is trans-national. What happens in Taiwan will influence the prices of equipment in the US. /. to the US, what a silly idea.
The Internet and its legal framework are even more trans-national. When European sites store their visitors data, they will store US visitors too. When the US strengthens its anti-piracy rules, Australians take heed.
Limiting
snoooooooore, I bet you also think the draft is about to be reinstated and the fbi has a file on YOU.
Oh, I agree 100% that USians SHOULD be against this. I just doubt the EU government CARES whether we are or not.
Who will benefit from this..
Harddrive/(disk) vendors...
spelling is for people who doens't know better...
Well, I thought the tag line was News for Nerds. Stuff that matters. Nothing about the US in there.
True, but MS has(had?) the tagline "Where do you want to go Today?" and they aren't a transportation company, so you generally can't go by a slogan.
The FAQ,however, is a different matter entirely. That's where I got the carefully chosen wording I used in my question (obviously to no avail, given the mod down. Oh well.).
Back on topic, though, I agree 100% that USians SHOULD be against this. What I have doubts about is whether the EU politicos care that we are, or even why they SHOULD.
Up to a 3 year retention on alt.binaries.* groups? Dudes, I am so moving to EU. Incompletes can bite my pale white ass.
Yes, but they've done that when they introduced the "Politics" section. Note not the "US Politics" section. Once again the presumption is that only the US politics are worth talking about. Sadly given the way they throw their weight around they may be right. Can I have my vote please?
--
USA: home of the world's largest terrorist training camp.
Oh, Slashdot, and slashdotters... never read what is in the linked documents and you're just fine here :-)
... law enforcement authorities are concerned that some data may not always be stored by all electronic communications operators to the same extent as they were in
;-)
Now seriously, look what is in the proposal:
Because of changes in technologies, business models and service offerings
recent years. These traffic data would hence not be available for these public authorities
when needed.
As a professional at CRM Data Warehouse I can only confirm that this data is being lawfully collected already and was collected since the long time. Where were EDRI looking at, all this time?
The thing is Telcos do not have processing power and storage to store all the data they may not need at all, so they do not store anymore. That's what the proposal is about.
This is my own opinion and not of my employer.
...a stunned silence fell upon the hall.
But given that David Blunkett is the Home Secretary at the moment, I doubt that the opposing reports, comments and complaints will even be read...
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Gigabit university connection. 1Gbit/sec is 3 Petabytes per year of storage or about 20000 large harddrives. Right, yup, impossible.
It may be cheaper for some bussinesses to build their own private networks instead of using public internet for traffic. The regulators can do nothing with private networks.
Here in Europe, underground people are already building their own high speed comm links out of reach of government, at least in big cities. I suggest you should do the same in U.S.A.
There you are, staring at me again.
the European Commission can't actually pass laws (directives). That would be the European Parliament, which is fully elected. And again, unless they concern pan-European bodies, most of those directives can only be implemented by the national governments of the EU member states. Unless you live in a dictatorship, those governments are elected too.
:: notes that there is currently a senate resolution to reinstate the draft :: although afaik it's been tabled for the moment pending modification http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:S.89:
Mak'tal shree lok'tak mek'ta sa'tak Oz! - Daniel Jackson
s/resolution/motion
Mak'tal shree lok'tak mek'ta sa'tak Oz! - Daniel Jackson
the bandwidth your average guy uses will be 100 times what it is today. you see my point?
Facts are these...
The UK government is not alone Europe in being really keen on such ideas for some years now.
Not a few weeks, not six months, several years, long before world trade centre stuff, well before osama was front page news.
Note well, anyone who thinks "government" = bush or blair or labour or democrat of whatever is doomed before they start, government in the UK is the many tens of thousands of unelected civil servants who remain in office year after year after year.
These are the corporate pen-pushers trying to carve out a piece of personal power and influence that are really behind all these schemes, and the ballot box will NEVER touch these people.
Not that the citizenry as a whole will ever unite on anything like this, forget it, it won't ever happen.
It is also a straw man argument to claim that such aims are impossible as there just ain't enough disk space on the planet, bullshit, it can be done pretty easy.
Spool all smtp and pop traffic, being text based it will compress real well anyway.
Spool all nntp traffic, when data gets to 80 days out strip out everything except the headers.
Spool all http traffic, you only need to keep the apache server logs on a per individual basis anyway, except where keyword matches allow you to elect to store the entire page.
Doesn't matter if this adds 50% to the costs for an ISP, because it will be added to ALL providers it will be in effect a tax where the cost is passed down to the consumer.
Google and others offering FREE gigabytes of storage will also make a very strong weapon in the armoury for these people claiming that it is quite possible and economical to do.
Scott Nealy said many years ago that the idea of anonymity on the internet was no more than a fiction anyway, so get used to it, little has changed.
OK, so back in the real world, and speaking as someone who was once described on the front pages of the business section of the (London) Times newpaper as an "Electronic Guerilla" and as a self proclaimed anarchist and libertarian, it is cloud cuckoo land to thing that some popular peoples movement is going to stop this happening.
I will offer you a simple proof of why this is so.
Take slashdot itself for an example, a techies website if ever there was one, all the slashdot owners have to do is move from http://www.slashdot.org/ to https://www.slashdot.org/ and lo and behold all those records on government computers for that bit of the internet now hold encrypted data.
Chances of this ever happening?
Zero.
Ok, so it is futile to talk about motivating the masses to move to pgp / blowfish / whatever encrypted communications... it will never happen, 95% of users can't even decide whether running bonzi-buddy is a good idea or not, and just click yes anyway.
No, if you really want to break a system you must push WITH the flow instead of against it, you efforts will then be far more effective if you try to steer it towards self destruction, than if you just stand in it's path and try to stop it, whete it will simply crush you.
No, EVERYONE should come out and start harping on about moores law and data storage densities and pence per terabyte etc etc, and push for ALL data, and I mean ALL data, not just TCP/IP of today, but emerging data such as TCP/IP telephony when BT and ma bell switch from switched networks, I mean ALL television programming, and of course I mean ALL CCTV or indeed any other form of surveilance "footage", yes ALL data, should be stored, IN PERPETUITY, and IN COMPLETE STREAMS, not every tenth frame, and not just headers.
I also want ALL vehicles to be tracked 24/7 via, GPS / GPRS, and ALL CITIZENS TOO.
We need to push for EVERY LAST BYTE to be stored in perpetuity, and we need to push for this by stating (correctly) that ONLY a full data stream tells the whole story.
Once people start to get behind this idea as a meme and take it on board we then need to push the photos
http://slashdot.org/~GuyFawkes/journal
My country ISP's and mobile phones operators already said they couldn't support the costs and being 2 or 3% of the pib, belive me they will stop this
Case in point, Robin Good writes "A yet to approved Senate bill would provide the ability to the US Government to basically put off limits all of the images coming off from research and monitoring satellites." http://www.masternewmedia.org/news/2004/09/11/blin ded_skies_government_to_close.htm/
"Nondisclosure of Certain Products of Commercial Satellite Operations," would exempt from the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), unclassified, commercial satellite pictures bought up by the government, as well as "any... other product that is derived from such data.
In simple words: forget public access to satellite data you have been viewing.
So if you want to watch the weather tracking of hurricanes, subscribe to SETI or do independent research using satellite images you may not need to worry about their retention longevity. They just might not make it on the air to begin with.
Actually, one could expect better from the old continent. We have the perfect example of Stasi, East Germany political police that was so effective in gathering information... that it has rendered itself totally ineffective. Stasi maintained an extensive network of informants and in 1980's simply everyone in the DDR was under some sort of surveillance (either himself or at least his neighbor or someone in the family already was a paid Stasi informer). In 1980's Stasi knew everything about everyone exept just one thing - they didn't know what they know. When the Berlin wall fell down, many Stasi secret files were opened - to much suprise, many of them were opened for the first time. The network was just too huge to control itself anymore. The information flow jammed all the available channels. Since everyone was under surveillance, it was almost as if there was no surveillance at all. I thought this will be a meaningful lessons for all the powers that be... but it took roughtly 15 years for European politicians to repeat the same mistake. Oh well.
Here are a few questions to ask them:
1. Have you ever gone over the speed limit in a car? Do you want to be monitored 24/7 so if you do, the government can simply issue you a remote fine?
2. Do you mind having government cameras in your home 24/7? How about in your bedroom, shower or toilet? After all, you have nothing to hide. Right? If you don't want cameras in your home, you must be conspiring against the government. Right?
3. Why is it that it's ok to have citizens watched 24/7, yet you can't see the footage and for some reason, no politicians seem to be surveilled?
4. Why shouldn't the insurance companies know about your entire medical, driving and social records, all the time, so they can dynamically adjust your risk status and increase payments as necessary?
5. Why do you need a secret ballot to vote for your politicians?
6. Shouldn't the politicians be doing your bidding, not ruling you?
Visceral Psyche Films
"The Commission is participating in a number of initiatives aiming at making communications networks like the Internet safer from criminal activity."
Fuck the internet. I want my shit to be safe from criminal activity. Fucking house breaking theives. Fucking grocery store 'accidental' scanning errors which are always more $ than the shelf tag. Fucking securities traders making them selves and their buddies $100's million and only penalty is one of them volunteers for a year at club fed and a $1million fine and the others go free.
Tell me, is this internet crap in EU aimed at reducing criminal activity or is it a fucking jobs program and diversion like it is here (USA).
Ananova reports: 'today the internet police issued $EU6,000,000(SIX BILLION EURO) in bad attitude fines. This marks a reduction from the usual Monday figure and is attributed to the fact that most workers were on holiday today'
the article then goes on to mention that govt security unions fear holiday declines such as this will impact their pension plans and are talking of holiday elimination strikes.
I wrote a polite, finely worded letter to my local MP (Jim Murphy) in regards to the RIP bill a number of years ago before it was introduced within the UK - and I wasn't even given a response either explaining why the UK should go ahead with the RIP bill or discussing the points I made in further details.
I do intend to write to him again regarding this, however I do not expect to receive a reply or any notification my letter has even been read.
Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
Yes, the draft bill was created by Hollings, Rangel and Conyers (you might remember Hollings from such awesome bills as the SSSCA), 3 democratic senators, purely as a FUD manuever. That's all it is--FUD.
It certainly is, and while maybe not every politician involved understands the distinction, I think it's explained reasonably well in the summary, right at the beginning of the consultation document:
The key phrase here is "generate", indicating that the communications generate traffic data, they don't constitute it. While we should be wary of covert attempts to spy also on traffic contents, this doesn't seem to be a case of such.
Or, you run a free service of some kind, sending no bills at all. What about e-mail between students at different universities; should university mail server logs be retained as well under this regime? What about mail within the same university, or mail between staff members of the same company? The logs usually end up in the same files on the company mail server whether the mail is internal or external, and all their network provider sees is a stream of IP packets.
It's like asking the power utility to make a note in their logs every time somebody switches on or off an electrical appliance in their home. I think that information might be just as useful in the fight against terrorism as two-year old traffic data is. If I can't get any sense out of all the junk mail sent to me by people I have never heard of, how could anybody else?
Traffic data is not traffic. As it is defined in the proposal, they talk about who called whom. And not what they talked about. The same for data connections.
...a stunned silence fell upon the hall.
It's inevitable - a society that's set up to give the highest value to money, laws that exist on paper only, no principles other than concentration and accumulation of objects...
Confrontation between those with the capital - and weapons/controlling positions they acquired it with - and the rest of the population is only going to increase. A lot.
We shouldn't be surprised at all to see violence grow in both the US and Europe, which was convenienty exported to the rest of the world. It can't be "managed" forever.
I chose to align and work more with the people in the humanist movement - but everyone should fight somewhere.
http://www.google.com/search?q=humanist+movement
Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
And you wouldn't expect the average Joe's "100 times that of today's" bandwidth usage to be personal, custom data.
Most providers don't even manage to have a week on retention of binary newsgroups. Count me in favor for mandatory data retention laws.
... they could store hashes of each transferred package, to verify that the requested data were indeed transferred. That would take about 1/100 of the payload's size in storage.
FYI - as far back as February 2002, Sage-IE - http://ie.sage.org - has been involved in various forums, and discussions with relevant bodies in the Republic of Ireland. Sage-IE also held a symposium on this issue, which was very well received. Details on Sage-IE's involvement can be found at http://ie.sage.org/tdr The topic of TDR is a hot one in Ireland, and one that Sage-IE is continuing to be actively involved in
Well well, just in case you didn't get it, some nutjob who calls himself John Titor claims to be a time traveller from 2038 claims that there will be a civil war brewing in the US of A in the 2004/2005.
Also "predicted" (well, not really so since it is all history for him) the war on iraq.
And a whole lot of other things.
http://www.johntitor.com/
http://johntitor.strategicbrains.com/
Better educate yourself, it is just another "the end is nigh" message, but in the recent days I find myself more and more spooked by the events in the news.
Looks like a police state is really coming to pass!
Maybe it is really time to buy some really heavy armaments, and know how to use it well..
It's in the 2nd Amendment!!
Online backup with Mozy, sounds like Ozzie, but more!
Will the chip also say "666" on it?
Or maybe it says "999" so that when God looks down from above it says "666"?
Sorry, just can't resist!
Online backup with Mozy, sounds like Ozzie, but more!
Hey, i don't know how it works in US now, but as for France, i can tell you there's nothing as useless as contacting your local politicians :))) As if they will listen you, or have any power at all, for that matter...
Citizen - Hey, you, my deputee, please, listen too me ! Defend my rights !
Deputee - Come on, keep calm ! Do you prefer a law so complicated you will not understand a single word ?
Citizen - mh...
Deputee - Or do you prefer we vote it in the night in the middle of the summer ?
Citizen - ok, never mind...
BigLobbyOfAnything - Come on, deputee, here ! Lick my shoes !
Deputee - (barking with joy) - yes, yes, master !
But of course, you are free to ask - it's not
Does it matter whether my ISP retains logs of e-mail traffic for other purposes than billing, or retains copies of every e-mail sent? It sure does, at least to my ISP, but also to me.
I fail to see where you are going with this analogy. Law enforcement agents may always be suspected of acting without proper cause; no news here. The issue we are discussing is whether the consultation document suggests retaining copies of all e-mail sent. In my opinion, it does not. Even if it did, and operators were to implement constant monitoring of all communications, it would hardly enable law enforcement to harass random Internet users any more than they can today. Rather, they would drown themselves in useless data.
The authorities may already be monitoring my e-mail, illegally, without me knowing it. Having the right to privacy doesn't mean a lot to me without the ability to detect and prosecute violations of said right. I find more comfort in blending in with the crowd, than in formal rights.
I'm not sure, but I think you are referring to what I mentioned in an earlier post of mine. Funny you should bring it up; it was quite long ago... :)
So the ISP will have to keep log files of the mailserver you send/receive mail through and not the emails themselves. EDRI's statement mentiones traffic data, but some people here have been implying that all communication is subject to data retention...
You would thnk rabble rousers would at least have access to a spell checker, but maybe not... expecially when its on /.
Got stereotypes?
"Seeing hoow privacy issues are sought to be handled in the US and how more and more of US (mal)practices come over to us (i.e. Europe) every day, there's nothing to be surprised at. " == "It's Bush's fault!"
Are you serious?? Put the crack pipe down.
Theoretically once somebody did something bad with a cellular, IP adress etc., the authorities could look up what he/she did before and may find useful information. Practically it is perfectly doable.
If the information not being gathered in the first place, there is nothing you can analyze afterwards.
The costs are not that dramatic but substantial.
...a stunned silence fell upon the hall.
Personal info is implicitly copyrighted. It is published or transferred solely to a single counterparty, for a transaction of a single purpose, unless expressly specified otherwise. Copyrighted info cannot be distributed or retained beyond the completion of that transaction, whether successful or unsuccessful. Write your lawyers and political representatives. It's time individuals claimed our copyrights to protect our liberty with the force corporations have siezed theirs.
--
make install -not war
Bro, its not US against EU. It's the lobby of EU and USA slashdot users against the lobby of EU and USA slashdot non users ;-)
lol.
"Hard drive manufacters lobbyes for total recording of all communications, including the sex videochatrooms, to fight terrorism, and gay infidelities."
"European manufacturers of chocolates lobbyes for bombarding terrorists states with chocolates".
"European manufacturers of teddy bears lobbys for mandatory wearing of teddy bears at schools, to fight terrorism."
"The french compagny l'Oreal negociates distributions of beauty creams and parfums to middle west dictators, for oil contracts."
Very serious stuff.
"Europeans on slashdot can insult the US for things like the Patriot act (giving up a little freedom for security? DASTARDLY!) when the exact same thing is happening in Europe."
specifics, please -- other than the UK and Netherlands.
Morris, who saw far less effective policies lead to disaster in the Clinton administration, credits the act and the cooperation it mandates between federal intelligence and local law enforcement with blocking a plot to destroy the Brooklyn Bridge and another to set off a bomb in NYC's Garment District. If both had succeeded, the death toll would have run into the tens of thousands.
Keep in mind that it is not good anti-terrorism policy to let these successes be too widely known, since they clue terrorists into the means being used to fight them. The Clinton administration would have trumpted every success it had, however pitiful, and claimed it was due to Bill's genius. The Bush administration prefers to do its job well and keep quiet about it.
The article answered a question that has bothered me. Given how desperate terrorists must be to hit back at the U.S., why haven't they accomplished anything in the past three years? Morris makes clear that the Patriot Act is one reason.
Yeah, I know this is flame bait to those who think Attorney General Ashcroft goes home each evening, tucks himself in bed, and reads reports detailing the "p0rn' books they just checked out of the library. For such people, facts are of little use.
--Mike Perry, Inkling blog , Seattle
Sure, I already listed the example of banning of nazi expression and owning of anything that could be considered nazi paraphanelia. Another example would be the laws in France that forbid "inciting religious hatred" and have recently been used to attempt to quash a book critical of Islam. Give up a little freedom for security?
Mandatory fingerprinting for everyone in the EU and biometric fingerprinting? Looks like it's going to happen, and that's pretty extreme to me.
Additionally in France, students that can't afford private school and must attend public school are not allowed to wear symbols of their religion.. again, unthinkable to most Americans.
And heck, then there's the issue of ... well, this article. For all the ranting about PATRIOT etc, Europe has come up with something much more intrusive and overbearing..and yet I see America being criticized more than EU? Why is that?
And what, do the Nederlands and UK not count as part of the EU?
And I've entirely avoided questions of economic freedom, I could on much, much longer on that subject if you would like.
This is all without googling. I wonder what I would find if I googled each EU country? hmm..
Get real-- hat about all the useless random connections that will be generated by legions of morons while their computers are idle (or while YOUR computers are idle, via trojans, virii, worms, etc.), simply to fill the logs with useless gibberish? And all the connection "anonymizers" that will spring up? How much useless use of bandwidth is going to be encouraged with such a logging scheme?
The REAL question seems to be, when are we going to get some COMPETENT people in charge of national security, rather than the lameoids that keep come up with useless bureaucratic busiwork such as this?
Give me a republic any day...
Being forced to accept the votes of the majority? Yeah, right, that's what I want... NOT!
This is an old debate which people that are brainwashed into thinking democracies are good in that they allow the majority to get what they "deserve", but often a democratic process is just a way for the majority to oppress the minority.
Why do you say often? That's how it works. You just don't feel really bad about it because as long as you are "normal" yo ualways get a few things voted in your favor. How that is supposed to be different in a republic doesn't quite settle in my brain right now so I'll be reading on the sytem of a republic for a while. :)
Oh, rest assured, I'm sure that US.government already has these ideas. My guess is their either waiting for the election to be over, or for the next crisis to shoehorn it in.
The Reichstag is burning! The Reichstag is burning!
Seriously, so far we've had suspension of civil rights and an increase of police powers with terrorism as an excuse in the cases of Bush, Hitler, and Putin (I'm kind of appalled about his latest quotes about how Russia needs "a stronger party" to "fight terrorism" -- I had to have a Soviet emigree explain to me how Russians like having a "father figure", a strong leader, even if that leader has a tendency to screw them over).
May we never see th
As we have seen before with Software Patents, there is no point doing anything to try to stop this. The EU is not democratic, so even if you get the kinda-democratic parliament to support sanity (as they did with software patents) you still get the law pushed through by the commissioners. So just give up, I know I have. I think I'll learn a trade, so I can be a stonemason in the second Dark Ages, I'm damn sure that freelance programmers are not going to be around too much longer.
actually, i don't remember which post(s) it was,
but you can always count on them showing up for these topics.
"The mistake is made by mayn Europeans (as well as American academe which at its core wants to follow European intellectual trends) that ther only government worth fearing is the US government."
Well, ours ain't the worst. But it used to be the best (now, *that's* jingoistic!).
Besides, I *live* here -- although I've started looking for alternatives.
I feel that the USA should be held to a higher standard:
fierce defense of individual rights has historically been the hallmark of our national persona, of The American Experiment.
I've grown up with the Bill Of Rights as my religion.
And now it's being trashed by cynical amoral people running our country.
"fingerprinting? Looks like it's going to happen"
maybe. Lots of Brits fight it. Might also happen in the US.
Regardless, I'm not sure that citing "might" cases is fair in this context.
I agree with your take on EDRI. But the thing is, it's not important to me whose country it is,
I hate this shit wherever it happens.
And I don't pull any punches re my own country, or take it personally when a non-USer voices criticisms that I know are justified;
I think that "pot calling kettle black" accusations don't contribute much to the discussion.
(It would be different if the criticizer were saying, "...and *my* country's perfect and better in every respect" -- which almost never happens.)
"I see America being criticized more than EU? Why is that?"
Elsewhere in this thread, I said that I hold the US to a higher standard.
I wouldn't be surprised if some Europeans felt the same away about the US.
It's like telling someone you love or admire, who has misbehaved, "How *could* you?!"
And most of the time, when non-USers are dinging the US, it's about the *govt*, not the *people*.
"do the Nederlands and UK not count as part of the EU?"
The reason I said to exclude them, is because I already know why I wouldn't want to move there.
I'm looking for new info to help me decide where.
Triskele, what country are you from?
England.
--
USA: home of the world's largest terrorist training camp.
I agree--as I said in another thread, i fear ALL governments. The issue I had is that this thread started with someone blaming the US for everything they didn't like in the EU, which is just nonsense.