halligas writes "You may have noticed that last month McAfeeacquired security firm Foundstone. Not to be outdone, McAfee rival Symantec has gone out a bought up their very own bunch of hackers, @Stake."
If you want to get purchased by Symantec
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 3, Funny
Start your company/product with an @. First it was @Guard (today's Norton firewall), now it's @Stake. You could be next to cash in!
Re:If you want to get purchased by Symantec
by
Sentry21
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· Score: 5, Funny
So that's the secret! I've been trying to market my SneezGuard firewall technology for years, but all I have to do is rename it to @Choo and I'm gold! Ah, sweet success, I can taste you now!
--Dan
Feeling old and sad...
by
E-Rock
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· Score: 5, Insightful
Anyone else shedding a tear at what l0pht heavy industries has become?
Re:Feeling old and sad...
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 2, Funny
Hummm... "Symantec L0phtcrack" Just doesn't have the same kind of ring, or trusability that it had before...
Re:Feeling old and sad...
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 5, Insightful
@stake != l0pht
l0pht is long over.
Re:Feeling old and sad...
by
spacerog
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· Score: 2, Informative
Mudge no longer works at @Stake. Hasn't for years. And he started using his real name well before that. Pieter Zatko. If you were wondering.
I wonder what effect this will have on the ability of either parent company to provide better security/AV protection. IMO, Symantec has a faster response to secrity threats.
Will these aquisitions reinforce this mode for symantec or result in McAfee getting a bit better?
-- If I had a real.sig, it would go here.
Re:Outcomes ?
by
Martin+Blank
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· Score: 3, Insightful
Considering how dead @Stake has been since they changed their name (aside from a couple of minor tool releases [LC4 notwithstanding], some me-too advisories, and an attempt to launch a quarterly security magazine for WAY too much money), I don't think it will change anything other than a few bank accounts.
-- You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
the obvious question
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 5, Funny
"Right now I'm recovering the password...
by
ARRRLovin
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· Score: 4, Funny
.......from this Windows2000 box with Symantec LC5."
Man.......that just sounds.....odd.
-- -Randy
do you mean shedding a tear because
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joeflies
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· Score: 5, Insightful
they've found a way to legally make money hacking?
Re:do you mean shedding a tear because
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networkBoy
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· Score: 5, Insightful
but it just doesn't have the allure it once had. I rember the l0pht and miss it.
By all means three cheers for the hackers making money at what they love, I just miss what it was. -nB
-- whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
Re:do you mean shedding a tear because
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jayhawk88
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· Score: 4, Insightful
...I just miss what it was.
Free?
Re:do you mean shedding a tear because
by
Cire
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· Score: 3, Interesting
No kidding. I got my first mag stripe reader from them at the MIT swap fest years ago. Oh well. We all have day jobs now.
C
Re:do you mean shedding a tear because
by
ackthpt
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· Score: 5, Funny
Free?
What's the world coming to?
You pay for the software that's full of bugs and holes
THEN
You pay, again to have someone protect you from those bugs and holes.
Sh!t, it's like Detroit and the Saudi Royal Family in bed with each other... oh, wait... never mind.
Orange Alert: Someone has figured it out in Sector 12! Paging Carl Rove! Damage Containment! Whoop! Whoop!
--
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Re:do you mean shedding a tear because
by
networkBoy
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· Score: 2, Interesting
That we do. My only solace about the way things were is that I can raise my daughter with the hacker ethic and hopefully she can help the next generation become great. I tend to avoid living in the past too much, but this was one of the few things which defined who I am. I still have a copy of LC1.? somewhere around here. I still hack as part of my job, and I love what I do . . . Yet, I miss the "glory days" of the late 80's and early 90's. My first Modem was a wierd 4800 baud deal and I was stoked when tech got us all the way to 14.4 I spent over $100 for that damn modem and I used it for almost 5-6 years. The late nights on various BBS's and the difficulty of 'financing' the phone bills for some of the longer sessions. Up until 98 Intel had a BBS hosted that I would call every night and lock up my phone line for 6 hours downloading specs. Once the Web took off all the feeling of subterfuge vanished. [/long winded trip down memory lane] -nB
-- whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
Wasn't @stake originally some other black-hat-ish group...like l0pth or something? Next thing you know, virus/worm writers will start asking for employment at anti-virus/security firms.:)
Hacker News Network
by
PreDefined
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· Score: 4, Insightful
It's been a while...
I used to read HNN at school during lunch time.
The change in direction to it being simply @Stake was already a early sign of its new approach to bring in a more conservative audience.
Re:Hacker News Network
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gustgr
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· Score: 4, Insightful
This is expected, after all, one day a bunch of young and underground hacker become adults and have to assume more serious responsabilities.
Ohh... and there is the money and profits issues too.
Good, maybe they'll hire back Dan Geer...
by
octaene
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· Score: 4, Interesting
Since they gave him the boot while licking Microsoft's arse cheeks...
IIRC, @Stake used to be the hacker group l0pht which claimed they were able to "shut down the internet with the tap of a button". It's interesting that Symantec has aquired this group, its a bit ironic.
Re:@stake
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 2, Funny
in other news: symantec plans to shut down internet!
@stake was never the l0pht guys. The l0pht was the heart of @stake's R&D department, but there are many more people involved with that company than just the 10 or so guys who make up what's left of the hacker group. The whole "shut down the internet" thing was also part of a testimony to Congress, when they were discussing the lack of appropriate security for critical networks and systems. It wasn't just a Usenet boast.:)
-- We who were living are now dying
With a little patience
Re:Cool!
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 2, Funny
With such a low UID, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Now get back downstairs, we've got visitors.
Re:Grrrrr NAV just deleted one of my files
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 2, Informative
this is why you should NEVER set a virus scanner to auto delete
l0pht0r
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 4, Interesting
I think the only thing with l0pht is, if they wanted to remain l0pht, they should have kept that aspect outside of work.
I never understood how a 'hacker group' could merge with a legit company. The members of the group maybe, but MERGE a group with a company is alittle odd. In other words, l0pht should still be around, outside of @Stake. But i'm sure that would be a conflict of interest...or something like that.
I reality, l0pht was cool, but there was plenty of other stuff out there and good for them for cashing in. All everyone seems to want to do is call them sellouts because they did something innovative and got paid for it, instead of sitting behind a desk as a sysadmin for the rest of their lives doing jack shit complaining about everyone in their league who went on a limb and took a real chance. Good for the old l0pht crew.
Re:Grrrrr NAV just deleted one of my files
by
LiquidCoooled
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· Score: 2, Funny
I wonder how many people are now diving into nortons config to double check their settings?
I think hindsignt will be 20/20 for the l0pht guys -- usually with big business comes big politicking. At least as a smaller entity, they were able to do things their way. Things never stay the same when getting acquired by a larger company. Anyone who has had it happen to them, Im sure can attest. In 99% of all buy-out's, things turn for the worst.
Well open-source arena is kind of a different ball-game -- with the l0pht acquisition, you're talking about hacking and security, which is a very sensitive arena nowadays....
I remember working at a "Security" shop (that were recently acquired by Verisign), and at my time there I found numerous holes in software we used in house. Now, I'm all about full-disclosure and such, and so I had prepared a few advisories on these softwares, only to have my manager tell me it would be "bad for everyone" if I had released these, due to the partership they had with these businesses. So needless to say I wasn't going to sacrifice my apartment and food in my mouth for the sake of disclosure. I would've loved to release those advisories, but because of politics I wasnt able to.
However, @stake has been 'big business' for a long time. I worked there in 2000, and they were just topping the 400-person mark when I left, spread across 2 continents.
They also let a lot of "non-business-compatible" people go; Space Rogue for not toeing the line with the rest of the l0pht guys, Daniel Greer for openly criticizing Microsoft in a paper he published on his own time, etc.
-- We who were living are now dying
With a little patience
choice quote from your article
by
waspleg
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· Score: 3, Informative
An @stake official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, confirmed that Geer was fired and said that as a corporate officer he should have known that Microsoft was a client of the company. "It's not a matter of the content of the report; it's a matter of ethics and respect for clients," the official said.
As far as the l0pht, good for them. Being broke all the time sucks. If you can make money and still maintain a level of integrity...i.e. walk the line between the corporate world and the world where people have integrity, and keep both feet on the integrity side, then as far as I'm concerned you're doing pretty well. From what I knew @Stake was doing that (and charging some serious fees...good for them!)
The bad though is @Stake being bought by Smantec. That is *not* a good thing. As I said, @Stake seemed to have some itegrity and Symantec...well they have *some* integrity, but not as much as they probably should. I don't see why @Stake couldn't/shouldn't continue on it's own. I think there's a line where the decision is whether to cash in or to preserve the company, and I think they crossed it. @Stake seemed to be a somewhat unique company and it seems like that is going to be lost in this. I guess we'll see.
Whether or not they can use the actual knowledge of the people who made up that company is yet to be seen.
It has just been in my experience that often when a larger company takes over a smaller one, often management egos and power interfere with creativity and the first ones to leave are the creative genius that made the company mean something in the first place.
In my career, I have seen this happen dozens of times. It happened at two places I personally worked. When the tie-guys took over, there was no way we could continue functioning at the level we once were, and the only amicable settlement was to give up and walk away.
Its gonna be interesting just to watch this one as "hacker" culture collides with "business marketing" culture.
-- "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
Re:Good and bad
by
Code+Dark
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· Score: 2, Insightful
You seem to think that they are doing this with integrity in mind. Although I agree that @Stake is a good, integrity-filled organization (at the moment, anyway), but that doesn't necessarily have to change with Symantec taking them over.
Also, remember that they aren't doing this for fame, honor, anything; they're doing this for money.
Integrity? Are we talking about the same @stake here? The ones with a long-standing habit of informing developers of security issues by going to the media and hoping that the developers happen to read one of the articles? That @stake?
They'll fit in perfectly at Symantec.
Conspiracy Theorists?
by
EightBits
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· Score: 2, Interesting
You know, I have heard so many conspiracy theories about anti-virus companys. You know, the old capitalist world domination arguments like, "They write half the viruses out there and have the antidote waiting so you have to buy their product."
While I never really jump into those and at the same time never really discount them, the first thing I thought when I read this was, "What an efficient way to write better viruses." I'm not pointing fingers or trying to start rumors. Just sharing a thought . . . to keep you awake at night.
I've got to disagree here. I think that the best thing a genuine hacker can do is to join into the industry as a position of influence. While a single individual has little influence preaching to the choir here on/. we [hacker community] do have power and influence once we enter the professional world. While we can not make single huge altruistic decisions that affect the world in a big way, we can steer our small portion of the world into the right direction, one little nudge at a time.
Think of it this way: The Exploratorium in San Francisco is a museum dedicated to science (recommended visit if you are ever in the city). They have an exhibit where a one ton concrete pillar is suspended by a chain from an arched support. A steel band girdles the pillar. All around the exhibit is a handrail so you can not touch the pillar directly. There are many small/weak refrigerator magnets on strings at the handrail. The "object" is to effect a movement on the pillar using these weak magnets. It takes time and patience, but I've successfully made the pillar nearly hit the handrail (it's designed so the pillar will not reach the rail to prevent the real possibility of injury).
We hackers in industry, @stake included, are those little magnets. Given time and direction we can achieve anything. For example I am nudging the division of my employer I work at to provide OSS drivers and code for the one product family I work with. The fear is that by OS'ing our drivers we'll allow competitors too much visibility into our product. My response was that we can release a binary and an OSS layer of source to interface that binary to the kernel. I've been gaining ground slowly, but I work in a very large company so change is slow. Eventually I hope to propagate this to other groups.
[/soapbox] -nB
-- whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
Lets set the record straight
by
spacerog
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· Score: 5, Informative
L0pht =! @Stake
and is hasn't for a long time. I think there is only one original L0pht person left at @snake.
It is unlikely any of the L0pht folks, or anyone not currently employed there will get anything out of this deal. All the money will most likely end up in the pockets of the VC. I know I don't get squat. (Anyone got a cool job they need filled? or even an uncool one?)
No one at L0pht ever said we could shut down the Internet with "the push of a button". It was 30 minutes. Using a router reset vulnerability that would cascade and confuse the major backbone providers, which has since been patched.
I tried to resurect HNN earlier this year but it seems no one was interested. or maybe I didn't advertise it well enough either way the traffic was abysml and I couldn't afford to keep it going. The WMA was taken over by Freaks Mac Archives long ago.
I submitted this exact same story to/. about 12 hours ago and it was regected. Maybe becuase I wasn't too polite in my descriptions of certian companies. Hmmmm, sounds familiar.
What has been most interesting is to see technology advance and realize that "Hey, L0pht thought of that 5 years ago." But due to lack of funds we could never make it happen. Of course after we got the money we no longer had control and can only sit back and watch as other people devloped our ideas. Sigh.
Slashdot Mirror
Well, of course. Symantec has a lot at stake.
Start your company/product with an @. First it was @Guard (today's Norton firewall), now it's @Stake. You could be next to cash in!
Anyone else shedding a tear at what l0pht heavy industries has become?
I wonder what effect this will have on the ability of either parent company to provide better security/AV protection. IMO, Symantec has a faster response to secrity threats.
Will these aquisitions reinforce this mode for symantec or result in McAfee getting a bit better?
If I had a real
So who is going to buy Cult of the Dead Cow?
.......from this Windows2000 box with Symantec LC5." Man.......that just sounds.....odd.
-Randy
they've found a way to legally make money hacking?
Wasn't @stake originally some other black-hat-ish group...like l0pth or something? Next thing you know, virus/worm writers will start asking for employment at anti-virus/security firms. :)
It's been a while...
I used to read HNN at school during lunch time.
The change in direction to it being simply @Stake was already a early sign of its new approach to bring in a more conservative audience.
Since they gave him the boot while licking Microsoft's arse cheeks...
IIRC, @Stake used to be the hacker group l0pht which claimed they were able to "shut down the internet with the tap of a button". It's interesting that Symantec has aquired this group, its a bit ironic.
With such a low UID, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Now get back downstairs, we've got visitors.
this is why you should NEVER set a virus scanner to auto delete
I think the only thing with l0pht is, if they wanted to remain l0pht, they should have kept that aspect outside of work.
I never understood how a 'hacker group' could merge with a legit company. The members of the group maybe, but MERGE a group with a company is alittle odd. In other words, l0pht should still be around, outside of @Stake. But i'm sure that would be a conflict of interest...or something like that.
I reality, l0pht was cool, but there was plenty of other stuff out there and good for them for cashing in. All everyone seems to want to do is call them sellouts because they did something innovative and got paid for it, instead of sitting behind a desk as a sysadmin for the rest of their lives doing jack shit complaining about everyone in their league who went on a limb and took a real chance. Good for the old l0pht crew.
I wonder how many people are now diving into nortons config to double check their settings?
liqbase
McAfee rival Symantec has gone out a bought up their very own bunch of hackers, @Stake.
What in the world does it mean to have "gone out a bought up" something?
I wonder how many people are, like me, mumbling something about Linux and snickering.
*mmrrmmmrr* Linux *MMmmmrmrrmM*
*snickers*
Please stop stalking me, bro.
I think hindsignt will be 20/20 for the l0pht guys -- usually with big business comes big politicking. At least as a smaller entity, they were able to do things their way. Things never stay the same when getting acquired by a larger company. Anyone who has had it happen to them, Im sure can attest. In 99% of all buy-out's, things turn for the worst.
An @stake official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, confirmed that Geer was fired and said that as a corporate officer he should have known that Microsoft was a client of the company. "It's not a matter of the content of the report; it's a matter of ethics and respect for clients," the official said.
ethics and respect? ahahahah
As far as the l0pht, good for them. Being broke all the time sucks. If you can make money and still maintain a level of integrity...i.e. walk the line between the corporate world and the world where people have integrity, and keep both feet on the integrity side, then as far as I'm concerned you're doing pretty well. From what I knew @Stake was doing that (and charging some serious fees...good for them!)
The bad though is @Stake being bought by Smantec. That is *not* a good thing. As I said, @Stake seemed to have some itegrity and Symantec...well they have *some* integrity, but not as much as they probably should. I don't see why @Stake couldn't/shouldn't continue on it's own. I think there's a line where the decision is whether to cash in or to preserve the company, and I think they crossed it. @Stake seemed to be a somewhat unique company and it seems like that is going to be lost in this. I guess we'll see.
You know, I have heard so many conspiracy theories about anti-virus companys. You know, the old capitalist world domination arguments like, "They write half the viruses out there and have the antidote waiting so you have to buy their product."
While I never really jump into those and at the same time never really discount them, the first thing I thought when I read this was, "What an efficient way to write better viruses." I'm not pointing fingers or trying to start rumors. Just sharing a thought . . . to keep you awake at night.
Sell-outs.
/. we [hacker community] do have power and influence once we enter the professional world. While we can not make single huge altruistic decisions that affect the world in a big way, we can steer our small portion of the world into the right direction, one little nudge at a time.
I've got to disagree here. I think that the best thing a genuine hacker can do is to join into the industry as a position of influence. While a single individual has little influence preaching to the choir here on
Think of it this way: The Exploratorium in San Francisco is a museum dedicated to science (recommended visit if you are ever in the city). They have an exhibit where a one ton concrete pillar is suspended by a chain from an arched support. A steel band girdles the pillar. All around the exhibit is a handrail so you can not touch the pillar directly. There are many small/weak refrigerator magnets on strings at the handrail. The "object" is to effect a movement on the pillar using these weak magnets. It takes time and patience, but I've successfully made the pillar nearly hit the handrail (it's designed so the pillar will not reach the rail to prevent the real possibility of injury).
We hackers in industry, @stake included, are those little magnets. Given time and direction we can achieve anything. For example I am nudging the division of my employer I work at to provide OSS drivers and code for the one product family I work with. The fear is that by OS'ing our drivers we'll allow competitors too much visibility into our product. My response was that we can release a binary and an OSS layer of source to interface that binary to the kernel. I've been gaining ground slowly, but I work in a very large company so change is slow. Eventually I hope to propagate this to other groups.
[/soapbox]
-nB
whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
L0pht =! @Stake
and is hasn't for a long time. I think there is only one original L0pht person left at @snake.
It is unlikely any of the L0pht folks, or anyone not currently employed there will get anything out of this deal. All the money will most likely end up in the pockets of the VC. I know I don't get squat. (Anyone got a cool job they need filled? or even an uncool one?)
No one at L0pht ever said we could shut down the Internet with "the push of a button". It was 30 minutes. Using a router reset vulnerability that would cascade and confuse the major backbone providers, which has since been patched.
I tried to resurect HNN earlier this year but it seems no one was interested. or maybe I didn't advertise it well enough either way the traffic was abysml and I couldn't afford to keep it going. The WMA was taken over by Freaks Mac Archives long ago.
I submitted this exact same story to /. about 12 hours ago and it was regected. Maybe becuase I wasn't too polite in my descriptions of certian companies. Hmmmm, sounds familiar.
What has been most interesting is to see technology advance and realize that "Hey, L0pht thought of that 5 years ago." But due to lack of funds we could never make it happen. Of course after we got the money we no longer had control and can only sit back and watch as other people devloped our ideas. Sigh.
- SR
http://www.spacerogue.net