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Gentoo Linux 2004.2: What You See Is What You Get

Posted by timothy on from the presto-change-oh dept.

editingwhiz writes "Jem Matzan has a cogent analysis of the new Gentoo Linux 2004.2 on Linux.com: "Gentoo Linux is the BSD of GNU/Linux distributions; it's elegant and customizable and you know exactly what you're getting when you install it. No mystery programs, no packages that you have to deinstall because you'll never use, no clutter, and everything is customized to your needs. If you do it right, Gentoo is also faster than your average GNU/Linux distro because everything can be compiled with higher compiler optimizations." (Linux.com is part of the OSTG network.)" Jem also has some criticism of the current version of Gentoo's AMD64 version.

78 comments

  1. WYSIWYG by alatesystems · · Score: 4, Informative

    What you see and what you get is a bash prompt on the cd boot. It is worse than slackware on the install, unless you get that new-fangled(yes I know red hat uses it and has forever) Anaconda working, but who does that anyway?

    Gentoo is great though because you can send a friend a cd and have him pop it in and forward port 22 and do /etc/init.d/sshd start; passwd and then you can remote in and install linux for them, or in my case, on a colo that had a bad hard drive.

    I like gentoo, but to set it up right takes quite a while and a lot of patience.

    Chris

    1. Re:WYSIWYG by sbennett · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What you see and what you get is a bash prompt on the cd boot. It is worse than slackware on the install

      I'd have said "better than slackware on the install". I realise I'm in the minority here, but I like a simple, text-based install process. After Gentoo's, my favourite installers (of those I've used) are Debian's old-style one and [Free|Open]BSD. They do what they need to, and don't get in the way.

      Oh, and the other major plus with Gentoo's install: you don't need an install CD to do it; any Linux system will do. I haven't yet found another distro or OS that lets you do that.

    2. Re:WYSIWYG by 3)+profit!!! · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But you learn SO MUCH about how your system works. Afterwards you're able to use your computer so much better, since you know how it got that way in the first place. The documentation guides you very well through the process, too. If you aren't capable of installing from the command line, you won't be able to fix any problems from the command line either.

    3. Re:WYSIWYG by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You missed the entire point of Gentoo. The "installer" exists as it does in order to filter out all the lamers. This makes the userbase 3133t enough to solve their own problems and to remove the "I can't print. Linux Sucks!" crowd from their forums.

    4. Re:WYSIWYG by Boglin · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I've heard this argument before, but it's never quite worked for me. I think there's two ways it can be interpreted and both have flaws. Another (supportive of Gentoo) poster has already said that Gentoo simply requires that you can follow EXACT instructions. That makes me nervous, as it sounds like it's not really learning, but rather just memorizing a bunch of commands. If that's the case, I don't think Gentoo really leaves you all that better trained than the ape at phone-tech support who flips through a manual and tells you to do whatever the book said without and actual cognitive thought.

      Conversely, though, it might be that Gentoo actually has good documentation that tells you WHY things work as opposed to just a list of key commands. If that's the case, however, why do I actually need the distro? Can't I just read the Gentoo documentation, learn about Linux's innerworkings, and then just apply that to whatever distro I see fit. After all, if I can edit an XF86Config file by hand under Gentoo, I can edit it by hand under RedHat. The GUI tools may change between distros, but the important stuff is always the same, so the Gentoo docs should be universal, making Gentoo a doc project that just has some sample software attached to it.

    5. Re:WYSIWYG by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that certain fuckwits have allowed the unwashed masses to install Gentoo, causing no end of pain and bug reports like this crap.

    6. Re:WYSIWYG by ComputerSlicer23 · · Score: 4, Informative
      Anaconda can be run from the command line.

      Start by fetching a couple of files off of the RedHat boot disk. From the images directory, you'll want to grab the boot floppy you need (depends on if you plan on doing a network or cdrom based install).

      In my example, I grabbed bootdisk.img, and I put it in tmp. You'll also need RedHat/base/stage2.img also.

      cd /tmp ;
      mkdir bootdisk
      mount -o loop bootdisk.img /tmp/bootdisk
      cp /tmp/bootdisk/initrd.img /tmp/initrd.img.gz
      gunzip initrd.img.gz
      mkdir initrd
      mount -o loop initrd.img /tmp/initrd
      mkdir stage2
      mount -o loop stage2.img /tmp/stage2
      mkdir install-root
      ( cd initrd ; tar cvf - . ) | ( cd /tmp/install-root ; tar xf - )
      ( cd stage2 ; tar cvf - . ) | ( cd /tmp/install-root ; tar xf - )
      mount -t proc none /tmp/install-root/proc
      chroot /tmp/install-root/ /usr/bin/anaconda --method http://pub.whitebox.mirror/whitebox/3.0/en/os/i386 --text
      That starts the installer running, and is attempting to do a network install from whatever website you replace "pub.whitebox.mirror" with (you probably have to adjust the rest of the URL, but it's the path I use on my local whitebox mirror).

      The installer starts to run at that point. I had to run it from the console, and I was intentionally in run level 3 rather then 5 (I should have gone to single user mode, but I was lazy). I get a nice curses application at this point. It got all the way to the part where it wanted me to repartition my disk. I have no free partitions to actually attempt an install. However, I'm fairly sure I could have finished the install (if I couldn't the heavy lifting was pretty much done with, it would have been a series of small problems to overcome).

      It's a bit of pain, and there's probably an easier way to do it, but that's how I figured out how to run the installer in less then 30 minutes after reading your message. (I remember reading on the WhiteBox lists that it should be possible to just start a remote install via an SSH session, but I've never actually seen the procedure written up). I figured it couldn't be that hard. Anaconda is nothing more then a python script that runs. It needs a bit of runtime support, but nothing special.

      Kirby

    7. Re:WYSIWYG by Phleg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I, as a former Gentoo user, used to believe this. And then I realized how ludicrous it was to believe that typing "emerge world" somehow gives you any insight into how the operating system itself works.

      Yes, you become familiar with some aspects of BASH. Yes, you learn what chroot does. Yes, you could have learned all of it by simply picking up a book and reading, or just looking around in /usr/bin on a clean system.

      Gentoo doesn't make you a knowledgeable Linux user. Spending time actually at the command-line does.

      --
      No comment.
    8. Re:WYSIWYG by lsmeg · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Conversely, though, it might be that Gentoo actually has good documentation that tells you WHY things work as opposed to just a list of key commands. If that's the case, however, why do I actually need the distro? Can't I just read the Gentoo documentation, learn about Linux's innerworkings, and then just apply that to whatever distro I see fit

      From my small experience with gentoo, this is actually the case. The docs are really good, in that they tell you what to do, why you're doing it, and what effect it will have.

      And with regards to just reading the doc and applying it to another distro, it's really more of a walkthrough of manually installing gentoo. I guess theoretically you could read it and get just as much benefit without doing anything, but by the same logic, you could become college-educated by simply buying the books for all the classes and reading them yourself...

      --
      It's OK! I'm a limo driver!
    9. Re:WYSIWYG by GimmeFuel · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I've heard this argument before, but it's never quite worked for me. I think there's two ways it can be interpreted and both have flaws. Another (supportive of Gentoo) poster has already said that Gentoo simply requires that you can follow EXACT instructions. That makes me nervous, as it sounds like it's not really learning, but rather just memorizing a bunch of commands. If that's the case, I don't think Gentoo really leaves you all that better trained than the ape at phone-tech support who flips through a manual and tells you to do whatever the book said without and actual cognitive thought.

      Installing Gentoo isn't a magic rite of passage that turns anyone into an experienced Linux guru. All Gentoo does is force you to use command-line tools like mount and mk*fs. Compare this to other distros where the option is there to use the command-line tools, but it's easier to use the shiny GUI app. It's like the difference between a High School Spanish class and taking a foreign exchange trip to Spain for a few months; you will learn a lot more (assuming you want to learn in the first place) if you have to immerse yourself in a unfamiliar environment where you have to learn if you want to get anything done.

      Of course, this path isn't suitable for everybody, which is why things like High School Spanish and RedHat exist. To each his own.

      Conversely, though, it might be that Gentoo actually has good documentation that tells you WHY things work as opposed to just a list of key commands. If that's the case, however, why do I actually need the distro? Can't I just read the Gentoo documentation, learn about Linux's innerworkings, and then just apply that to whatever distro I see fit. After all, if I can edit an XF86Config file by hand under Gentoo, I can edit it by hand under RedHat. The GUI tools may change between distros, but the important stuff is always the same, so the Gentoo docs should be universal, making Gentoo a doc project that just has some sample software attached to it.

      If Gentoo was only about teaching people how to use the console, then it probably would just be a pile of docs. However, Gentoo is about much more, which is why it is a full-fledged distro.

      --
      live(free) || die;
    10. Re:WYSIWYG by MindStalker · · Score: 1

      Well you are pushed to look up things like the use command and are encouraged to choose kernel options. Though I can simple use genkernel, which creates an extremly module full kernel (basically same as one on boot disk) to support any and all hardware. But you really don't want this. In fact the genkernel created kernel didn't work for mem don't know why this is.

    11. Re:WYSIWYG by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1
      I'd have said "better than slackware on the install". I realise I'm in the minority here, but I like a simple, text-based install process. After Gentoo's, my favourite installers (of those I've used) are Debian's old-style one and [Free|Open]BSD. They do what they need to, and don't get in the way.

      I'm afraid that doesn't make sense. You (1) like a text-based installer, (2) like it simple and (3) like Debian's installer, which is renowned as arcane and hard to use.

      I fail to see how Slackware's install, which is a matter of typing "setup" and following a few very simple prompts is harder than Gentoo's.

    12. Re:WYSIWYG by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      Damn, I knew that preview button was there for a reason. ;-)

    13. Re:WYSIWYG by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1
      I have no particular quarrel with Gentoo, I have many friends who love it to bitses. I just have too many machines of different architectures to make it practicable to maintain without involving a greater time commitment than is feasible.

      But using the "but you learn so much" argument is silly.

      If you really want to learn about Linux, the best way by far is to try Linux From Scratch.

      In the meantime, I bet you anything you want I'll get more actual work done on my Slackware machines with the majority of the code I use optimised for generic i686 than you will in the 3 nanoseconds you might gain in the time you've compiled it all for the whizz-bang architecture of your choice.

    14. Re:WYSIWYG by Kethinov · · Score: 1

      Yeah, cause wanting an easy installer for the world's best source based distro is just wrong! *rolls eyes*

      --
      You're right, I wouldn't steal a car. But if it were possible, I sure as hell would download one!
    15. Re:WYSIWYG by strikethree · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It would probably be easier if you just booted with a Knoppix cd and mounted the drive you want to install to under /mnt/gentoo. You can then start from stage 1 in a chroot environment. Do dmesg | less to see what kind of drivers you will need. Gentoo does come with a LiveCD that is perfect for installing from... but Knoppix has Frozen Bubble and Mozilla to keep you occupied while it compiles.

      strike

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    16. Re:WYSIWYG by BenjyD · · Score: 1

      Compiling the software doesn't give you any more knowledge about the system.

      How does installing gentoo from the command line give any more knowledge than installing a base debian/slackware/arch/openna/whatever system and using apt/pacman/swaret etc. to install the base system from binaries?

      The only thing I learnt from the Gentoo installs I did was that you can set the timezone by linking /etc/localtime to the correct file - which I only ever needed to know in Gentoo, as every other distro had some easier-to-use config setting (text file and/or GUI) to set it.

    17. Re:WYSIWYG by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I installed Gentoo a while ago. I took plenty of time to install. When i get in too the system i just found they copy the #emerge from FreeBSD.

      I dropped it and went back to FreeBSD.
      No more plotting Linux for me.

      Linux is so hard to handle compared to FreeBSD easy and fast Install. Also Linux compared to BSD isnt userfriendly at all.

    18. Re:WYSIWYG by IAR80 · · Score: 1

      You are not alone. What is best about a simple command prompt installer is that you do not have to spend ages in case your video card settings are wrong.

      --
      http://ebgp.net/ccc/
    19. Re:WYSIWYG by bryhhh · · Score: 1

      I have both Gentoo and Fedora systems, and I agree that the Gentoo install procedure is very good at teaching about the inner workings of a Linux box. As many other gentoo users have said, I've learned more from installing Gentoo, than I have from many years of using other versions of Linux.

      But once it's installed, it's a different matter - The learning curve stops. It could be argued that the portage is *too* good. Installing new software or updates on Gentoo is so simple it's unreal! Okay it might be time consuming, but a minimised xterm with a hint of 'nice' takes care of that problem. I can't honestly think of a piece of software I've ever installed on a gentoo box that wasn't in the portage. Back on my Fedora system though, adding/updating software is a relative nightmare.

      Gentoo has the advantage of having excellent docs, and a *very* helpful and friendly community.

      These days, I tend to stick with Gentoo for the servers thrown in a cupboard, and fedora on my desktop machines.

  2. As Shultz would say... by rusty0101 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    "I see nothing!"

    But I suppose someone would claim the quote is flame bait...

    --
    You never know...
  3. Gentoo is for learning/inaccuraces in doc by oldosadmin · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The key feature most people miss about gentoo is that it's a great LEARNING DISTRO. I learned many times more in my 5 months of using gentoo than I did in using RHL/FC for a year. Not to mention the great docs/community... anyone who can follow EXACT directions, has some patience, and basic linux knowledge should be able to install Gentoo.

    One thing (big thing) it missed about 2004.2 was the move from XFree default to XOrg...

    Also... by slow development... I don't know what they mean? Portage is gaining features (try one of the pre-releases), and the ebuilds still fly out fast after new software is released.

    Whenever I run linux (I move from Win/Linux often), Gentoo is my distro of choice by a long shot.

    --
    Jay | http://oldos.org
  4. Gentoo. by rincebrain · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I run three Gentoo boxes, and I must say, Gentoo is, by far, the most convenient Linux I've installed...when you already know what you're doing. =)

    If you don't know what you're doing, and something is slightly off-kilter...you're better off in Debian or some other distro with an easier installer which won't give you a scary cryptic error message.

    Also, Portage is the single best software management I've ever encountered, bar none...though occasionally, user error means you wait awhile for packages to become stable.

    When you run stable, though, you very rarely have a problem with a "required" upgrade due to a bug...relatively rarely, of course. =)

    In addition, Gentoo is second to none in documentation and error repair...the mailing list sends out documentation of a bug, along with complete list of affected versions of a package, and fixes.

    Finally, 2004.2 fixes a few nasty bugs in the installer LiveCD, so, in my experience, it's far more stable and reliable for certain hardware configurations.

    Note: I've only done x86 installs myself, so YMMV. =)

    --
    It's only an insult if it's not true.
    1. Re:Gentoo. by josepha48 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "If you don't know what you're doing, and something is slightly off-kilter...you're better off in Debian or some other distro with an easier installer which won't give you a scary cryptic error message."

      I'd suggest if you don't know what you are doing to use fedora or SuSE or Mandrake. Debian is still more for the 'geek' than fedora or SuSE.

      I'd have to say that having used FreeBSD, NetBSD, RH/Fedora, and Slackware, Gentoo is a refreshing change. It gives me all the drivers in GNU/Linux, and the BSD minimalism ability. So I can install and configure the system as I want.

      Only thing I haven't yet been able to do figure out is how to emerge world from packages and not build the whole world. It takes to darn long on a p233.

      --

      Only 'flamers' flame!
      Does slashdot hate my posts?

    2. Re:Gentoo. by Phleg · · Score: 1

      If you don't know what you're doing, and something is slightly off-kilter...you're better off in Debian or some other distro with an easier installer which won't give you a scary cryptic error message.

      Do you guys actually ever listen to how condescending you sound? It's your distribution of choice; get over yourself.

      Also, Portage is the single best software management I've ever encountered, bar none

      Really? Because apt and ports have been around for far, far longer, and are far, far more mature.

      --
      No comment.
    3. Re:Gentoo. by Kethinov · · Score: 1

      WYSIWYG. With apt I see outdated, broken, and/or missing packages everywhere. More mature my ass. Source based Linux is far more practical.

      Apt is great in theory but until all of Linux unites behind it as THE binary standard, its problems will not go away. I'll switch off Gentoo the day I can reliably go to ANY Linux software website, EXPECT a download for a .deb, double click install it, and expect it to work.

      As it stands, most Linux software is released as source only and it is the distro's responsibility to compile it. Who wants to compile for 5 different binary standards? Source is the unfortunate best way to go in Linux. This is why Gentoo's portage (and BSD's system) shines.

      --
      You're right, I wouldn't steal a car. But if it were possible, I sure as hell would download one!
    4. Re:Gentoo. by dizzyduck · · Score: 1

      Also, Portage is the single best software management I've ever encountered, bar none...though occasionally, user error means you wait awhile for packages to become stable.

      Hmmmm...USE flags are great, but I wouldn't say Portage is the best package management system; it doesn't even have reverse dependency checking!

      --
      Allergy advice: Contains eggs.
    5. Re:Gentoo. by Phleg · · Score: 1

      With apt I see outdated, broken, and/or missing packages everywhere. More mature my ass.

      As for what this actually has to do with apt, I have no clue. Package selection != package management.

      Source based Linux is far more practical.

      Right, because installing development tools on every server and having to spend two hours of system resources compiling every upgrade is more practical than a three-second binary installation.

      Apt is great in theory but until all of Linux unites behind it as THE binary standard, its problems will not go away.

      You seem to be utterly clueless as to what apt is. Apt is not the package selection. Apt is not the package format. Apt is a utility for managing packages, their dependencies, and their installation. Exactly what emerge is. And I fail to see what the "problems" are you refer to.

      I'll switch off Gentoo the day I can reliably go to ANY Linux software website, EXPECT a download for a .deb, double click install it, and expect it to work.

      This is a double standard. I don't see a .ebuild file on the website of every source package. Not to mention, apt is not tied to the .deb format; plenty of people use apt to manage their RPM-based distributions. Oh, and Debian has over 15,000 packages available in its software archive--your (irrelevant) argument is even flawed there: there are far more packages available for Debian than Gentoo.

      As it stands, most Linux software is released as source only and it is the distro's responsibility to compile it. Who wants to compile for 5 different binary standards? Source is the unfortunate best way to go in Linux. This is why Gentoo's portage (and BSD's system) shines.

      Learn your Linux history; this is why binary packaging systems were created in the first place. You're not supposed to go to the author's website, compile it, and install it. You're not even supposed to get the package off the author's website. You're supposed to grab it straight from your distributor. The sole purpose of distributions is to bring together a suite of packages and ensure they all work correctly in unison. Downloading from the original author entirely defeats the purpose.

      --
      No comment.
  5. I'd like to see that quantified by martinde · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Can someone show me benchmarks that real programs are really faster on the same hardware than some other distro? I've seen benchmarks that say the opposite, but I've never seen any that support this common claim.

    I do realize that optimizing for the "correct" CPU should provide improved performance, but I wonder how much improvement you really see with gcc in this case.

    1. Re:I'd like to see that quantified by keesh · · Score: 1

      Well, it depends upon the arch... On x86 it's about 15%, on ultrasparc it's about 40%, since v7 opcodes have to be emulated. Heck, even debian roll v9 openssl binaries because of it :)

    2. Re:I'd like to see that quantified by Sancho · · Score: 1

      I've seen benchmarks. On current processors, there was not as much difference as on older ones. I've always preferred using Gentoo with -Os because, in theory, it should decrease load times on slower hard disks. I haven't done any comparisons, though.

      One thing I would like is if you could modify the optimizations based on the package without editing the ebuild. Most things I'd like to have optimized for size, but things like mencoder and similar cpu intensive tasks could potentially benefit from optimizing for speed. Is there an easy way to do this that doesn't involve editing /etc/make.conf (since the next time you make world after that, things get funky)

    3. Re:I'd like to see that quantified by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The point is not so much performance as it is flexibility. Where's the RPM for vim built with perl and python support, without ruby support, with the gtk+-2 GUI but no gnome extensions, native language support disabled, debug code turned off and built with ncurses terminfo rather than termcap?

      And, for those of you who say "why not just build from source?", I suggest you go and figure out just how much pain is caused by going outside the package manager...

    4. Re:I'd like to see that quantified by GimmeFuel · · Score: 2, Informative
      Easy. Just specify CFLAGS on the commandline. If your CLFAGS in make.conf is "-Os -pipe", but you want mencoder with -O2, just run

      CFLAGS="-O2 -pipe" emerge mencoder

      The specified CFLAGS are used for that emerge, with subsequent emerges using your unchanged make.conf settings. The same works if you want to override USE or any other option in make.conf for just one emerge.

      --
      live(free) || die;
    5. Re:I'd like to see that quantified by Sancho · · Score: 1

      As I said, though, emerge world will not maintain those settings meaning I have to keep track of what I've compiled with different defaults and recompiles those after emerge world. There's gotta be a better way.

    6. Re:I'd like to see that quantified by Zork+the+Almighty · · Score: 1

      You can specify USE flag on a per-package basis, but not CFLAGS. Pity.

      --

      In Soviet America the banks rob you!
  6. ebuilds still fly out fast by dpilot · · Score: 1

    But last I checked, earlier today, they STILL didn't have stable releases of Mozilla 1.7.3 and Mozilla-Firefox 1.0PRE to build from source. They did have binary releases, but the source releases were still ~x86.

    I'd also feel better if the GLSA (Gentoo Linux Security Advisory) about Mozilla would get out there.

    --
    The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    1. Re:ebuilds still fly out fast by keesh · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's because mozilla source tarballs don't compile when shipped. The last three mozilla/firefox releases have all been either broken or incomplete from a compiling-from-source perspective. The current bunch doesn't compile properly with freetype+gtk2 enabled.

      The GLSA is getting there, but it's kinda hard when upstream don't release working tarballs... Debian et al have it easy, they only have to make it build on one box with one set of configure options. Gentoo has to make it compile anywhere with any set of build settings.

    2. Re:ebuilds still fly out fast by dpilot · · Score: 1

      I'd just like to have a GLSA notice that there is a problem, that they know about it, and are working on it. Oh, it would also be good if they would suggest a workaround, like you have. (Thank you, very much.) I have the Win-box fully updated, and for the moment use that for the more general web, and the Gentoo box sticks to safe sites.

      I'm not really a font fiend, so I'll probably drop the freetype and build mozilla as ~x86, as oldosadmin suggests. I need to check the syntax and see if I can set just 1.7.3 to ~x86, so when they come out with 1.7.3-r1 as stable, I can get back to the stable package. That's for when I forget to fiddle my package.keywords.

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
  7. easy fix for that... by oldosadmin · · Score: 2, Informative

    echo 'net-www/mozilla-firefox ~x86' >> /etc/portage/package.keywords

    or if you care that much, just run ~x86.

    --
    Jay | http://oldos.org
    1. Re:easy fix for that... by Directrix1 · · Score: 1

      No, nobody should run ~x86 unless they really want their computer to break. Installing a few packages here and there is fine (but only by using /etc/portage/package.keywords NOT ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~x86"), but when the fine gentoo maintainers decide that the new experimental glibc is not stable enough even for ~x86 and they roll it back, boy will you be in for a ride.

      --
      Occam's razor is the blind faith in the natural selection of least resistance and in universal oversimplification. -- EF
  8. Kernels by keesh · · Score: 2, Informative

    I don't think the author understands gentoo's kernel naming system... gentoo-sources is 2.4.x, gentoo-dev-sources is 2.6.x. The only reason they've not been merged is that portage is rather too happy to upgrade slotted versions. The -dev- part doesn't indicate that it's any less stable.

    Oh, and there is no default kernel on gentoo. You install whatever you want :)

  9. Re:what you get: no vi, ... by huber · · Score: 1

    emerge telnetd emerge vi emerge .... etc when you use nano dont forget the -w option!

  10. Re:what you get: no vi, ... by maskedbishounen · · Score: 3, Insightful
    What I ended up with a system that had no vi (or similar), no inetd, no finger, no telnet - none of the many tools that make Unix systems just the fine place one wants t live at.


    That's actually the entire point. No clutter, unless it's your clutter.

    And worst of all it came with an editor that broke lines of /etc/fstab without mentioning - lots of fun for novice users trying to find out why their fstab is busted.


    Nano? Did you read the documentation (or man page, for that matter)? It specifically mentions you need to use the -w switch, or it will break (wrap) lines.

    It's init.d. ;) And there's some fine documentation that goes along about how to use it.

    And here I thought the BSD crowd was the "RTFM" one. :O Then again, anyone still using telnet.... x.X
    --
    "An infinite number of monkeys typing into GNU emacs would never make a good program."
  11. Gentoo is too minimalistic! No, wait! too bloated! by oldosadmin · · Score: 1

    Clever troll. The whole idea is that gentoo is minimalistic. Yeah you gotta emerge some stuff after an install, but that's the whole point.

    I don't use vi. I'm glad it's not included. Also, with the init scripts, it uses a BSD style init, so that is completely different that other linux distros.

    --
    Jay | http://oldos.org
  12. Re:what you get: no vi, ... by hubertf · · Score: 1

    yeah, emerge ... I can install cygwin on Windows too to get a decent (well) environment, but I prefer a useful default installation, which Gentoo didn't provide for me. NetBSD (and probably every other BSD) does.

    - Hubert

  13. Learning vs. Getting It Done by TheMeld · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Learing how your system works is great. But I already know. Most of the time when I want to install linux on a new system, I just want to get it installed. Not having excess packages is great, and control over the install is great, but extra typing and waiting is not. In that vein, RedHat's installer is tolerable, but not optimal in that it's hard to get as minimal an install as I'd like. Debian's installer is pretty good, though it requires doing a bit more manual work than I'd like. Anything more manual than Debian's installer is just too much for me.

    When it comes to Linux newbies, install time isn't the time to learn about the system. You want to learn about the system when you have all the emotionally-satisfying and high usability eye candy and applications installed. If people have to read lots of documentation in order to install the system, they are likely to get frustrated and possibly give up. Of course, there's more motivation to learn how the system works when you need to do so in order to install it. On the other hand, if the goal is world domination, you don't want to limit it to only the die hard techies.

    And as much as I'm a command line junkie, I don't think joe user should be required to to be one too in order to do the basic stuff with his computer. Expecting joe admin to be savvy about the commandline is well and good, but not joe user.

    --
    -Cheetah
    1. Re:Learning vs. Getting It Done by Directrix1 · · Score: 2, Informative

      If its the wasted time you dislike, here is what you do:
      1) Setup a gentoo system as a template for each role of computer you would to set up.
      2) tar.bz2 relevant partitions
      3) script partition creation, and extraction
      4) burn to CD

      Now installing is as easy as running a script. Simple.

      --
      Occam's razor is the blind faith in the natural selection of least resistance and in universal oversimplification. -- EF
  14. Optimisations generator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Great to see more coverage for my fave distro. Gentoo doesn't get the exposure it deserves, which is a shame as it has a bright future ahead. Anyway, having installed it on various boxes and trying to make the most of my hardware, I put together a script that generates the most appropriate optimisations (CFLAGS) based on your hardware. All you need to do is set the options and you're ready to go:

    Gentoo Optimisations Generator

  15. I love Gentoo, but does it have a future? by TRACK-YOUR-POSITION · · Score: 2, Insightful
    When I first started using Gentoo back in 2001 or 2002, I did it on a lark and figured the system would just fly apart into a thousand pieces right in my face after a few weeks. I mean, I'm supposed to keep every package in the system updated every few days? Surely, at some point, something will go wrong, and I'll find myself in the unsolvable dependency hell I find myself in so frequently in with RPMs. Yet I ended up staying with that very installation until just recently I started over again with 2004.1 because it seemed like the easiest way to upgrade from gcc 2.95. And, up until the point that I couldn't find any packages that worked with gcc 2.95 anymore, I was always up to date with almost all software I ran on the system.

    I've thought about switching to Debian a few times, because I'm really not particularly fond of linux configuration as a hobby (it gets old after 5 years or so, you know?) But it's always so disheartening to drop back a few versions on all the packages I'm running. And in the meantime I've gotten used to Gentoo's strange world, and now I guess it's a habit.

    Still, hats off to the Gentoo development teams--for something that probably appeals to such a limited demographic, it works far more fantastically well then I ever would have thought.

    My only wonder is--if .NET (mono) and Java really take off in the future with Just-In-Time compilation, will Gentoo become less interesting. Essentially, EVERY computer is going to start compiling optimized versions of its code for its particular needs. In fact, since the optimizations are at run-time, we can expect JIT to be even more machine-specific than Gentoo's optimization and USE flags. Like, if I install another Gig of memory future JIT compilers might gradually recompile all the bytecode on my system to unroll loops more often or something.

    So, in the future, I think we'll be sitting somewhere halfway in between Gentoo and binary distribution--sending diffs of the bytecodes for my applications out instead of binary or source.

    And while I'm dreaming, why don't we make those bytecodes proof carrying code. Like, for every piece of code executing on my system, I want to see either the automatically checked proof that the code won't explode my system, or the name of someone who signed the code claiming it won't explode my system. If neither of those are found, I want Future Gentoo to issue a big flashing red warning "WARNING THIS CODE WILL EAT YOUR PARENTS DO NOT INSTALLL!!!!!!!" Man, the future is going to be so awesome.

    1. Re:I love Gentoo, but does it have a future? by Stevyn · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well it's not going to take over the world. But for a small amount of people (myself included) it be prefered. I don't think their intentions were ever to make it the number one linux distro. But I think it will stay alive for a while as distros keep trying to struggle with required packages and bloat.

    2. Re:I love Gentoo, but does it have a future? by flonker · · Score: 1

      The halting problem effectively won't let you prove the robustness of arbitrary code. You may be able to prove a subset of code to be robust, but I don't think you'd be able to do anything interesting.

    3. Re:I love Gentoo, but does it have a future? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I mean, I'm supposed to keep every package in the system updated every few days?

      Who on earth told you that nonsense?

    4. Re:I love Gentoo, but does it have a future? by TRACK-YOUR-POSITION · · Score: 1

      Um...so far as I know Gentoo doesn't have a convenient way of just asking for security updates. You could just monitor the list of security warnings and just only emerge those instead of doing "emerge -uD world", but the newer versions with security patches tend to depend on the newest versions of all the other software anyway, so you'll just end up having to upgrade a huge crapload of packages one day and spend an entire day compiling--an entire day without the security fix.

    5. Re:I love Gentoo, but does it have a future? by TRACK-YOUR-POSITION · · Score: 1
      But for every program that halts, there is a proof that it halts, correct? I think the idea with Proof Carrying Code is that the compiler (the thing that writes out the bytecodes in the first place) generates the proof, possibly with human programmer assistance. The virtual machine just verifies that the proof is correct.

      I guess there are computability limitations on the kinds of robustness for which a proof cannot be found automatically, and I'm also guessing that not all robust programs will be provably robust for some definitions of robust.

      But it's not just something I made up, you can google for Proof Carrying Code, or you can look at this.

    6. Re:I love Gentoo, but does it have a future? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      so far as I know Gentoo doesn't have a convenient way of just asking for security updates.

      glsa-check -l

      the newer versions with security patches tend to depend on the newest versions of all the other software anyway

      Not in my experience.

    7. Re:I love Gentoo, but does it have a future? by TRACK-YOUR-POSITION · · Score: 1

      That's cool, but my experience definitely differs from your on the latter issue.

    8. Re:I love Gentoo, but does it have a future? by TRACK-YOUR-POSITION · · Score: 1

      Again, I can't stress how cool this is, but it doesn't really fill me with great confidence...

      # glsa-check -l
      WARNING: This tool is completely new and not very tested, so it should not be
      used on production systems. It's mainly a test tool for the new GLSA release
      and distribution system, it's functionality will later be merged into emerge
      and equery.

  16. Re:what you get: no vi, ... by Stevyn · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You're completely missing the point. If you don't need the package to boot, then it's not on there. If you want it, then compile it and put it on there. I don't want packages that someone thinks I should have but not needed. If I want them, I'll emerge them.

  17. here they are by viniosity · · Score: 1

    Click here or next time just google.

  18. Gentoo is looking for feedback by viniosity · · Score: 2, Informative

    Looks like the Gentoo folks put up a survey intended for current users asking for feedback. I hope posting that link here doesn't result in flames or bogus responses.. they have enough work to do without trolls so please answer responsibly.

    1. Re:Gentoo is looking for feedback by Stevyn · · Score: 1

      I filled it out. It wasn't much. They just ask some basic questions and any positives and negatives you have about gentoo.

      For the purpose of discussion, my favorite aspect of gentoo is portage. I had a hard time thinking about anything negative. Most problems I've had aren't from Gentoo, but other packages giving me headaches. I run KDE because I like the desktop environment as opposed to a bare bones window manager that requires more tinkering to get it working as easily. Well, that's my experience anyway. So I'd rather have KDE make the desktop use easier, not make that up to the distro like Mandrake, Fedora, and SuSE do.

    2. Re:Gentoo is looking for feedback by IAR80 · · Score: 1

      Thaks for the info. I had to think what i want changed. And the answer was NOTHING. :)

      --
      http://ebgp.net/ccc/
  19. I'm using Gentoo AMD64 right now by rRaminrodt · · Score: 1

    I wonder what problems he had, because I had none installing. Although I did it from 2004.0, I would think things might get more stable as time progressed. Though, I think I tried to pick my hardware as linux supported when I built this system.

    It was a huge improvement over Mandrake for AMD64 which I used for about a week. Mandrake, which I love and still use on my i386 system, had way too many packages that were goofed up, or that I had problems with. I think the source based approach is very nice for less popular archs like mine. And, like everyone says, emerge is very nice.

    --
    They'll think I've lost control again and leave it all to evolution. -- Supreme Being, Time Bandits
  20. emerge makes it easy to explore the Linux tool-set by Dan+Ost · · Score: 1

    'emerge world' might not seem particularly instructive, but the process that
    gets you there is. For instance, what programs are in the world file and why
    are they there? They didn't appear there on their own. They're there because
    the admin (presumably you) decided you wanted them on the system.

    Obviously, some tools are there because you can't live without them (vim,
    for example). Others might be there because the description looked interesting
    and you wanted to give them a try. But NOTHING is in the world file that you
    didn't want put there (manually, or by using emerge). There are no mystery
    executables. This is what makes Gentoo so educational: emerge makes the
    Linux tool-set transparent and easy to explore. Typing 'emerge foo' by itself
    is not terribly revealing, but 'emerge -etva foo' will show you the entire
    dependancy tree for foo which makes an excellent starting point for seeing
    how foo interacts with the rest of your system.

    emerge is a tool of exploration. Use it.

    --

    *sigh* back to work...
  21. I ran it for a while... by oldosadmin · · Score: 1

    I ran a gcc34 + ~x86 ... it only broke once, and that was easily fixed.

    Maybe you just have bad luck. (Not that I'd run in on production anything, mind you)

    --
    Jay | http://oldos.org
    1. Re:I ran it for a while... by Directrix1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      gcc isn't as much of an issue for breakage (at least as far my experience has been) as glibc.

      --
      Occam's razor is the blind faith in the natural selection of least resistance and in universal oversimplification. -- EF
  22. Only if you prelink will it be faster. by BrookHarty · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yes, compiling with optimizations will make it run faster, but not the fastest. A prelinked system will outrun a non-prelinked system. This is why Mandrake would boot faster than normal Gentoo install, and KDE was faster in launching applications, etc.

    So...

    http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/prelink-howto.xml

    There are lots of speed tweaks, someone should start a webpage.

  23. Re:But, we all know that Gentoo is... by Joff_NZ · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Heeh.. current moderation: 50% funny, 50% flamebait ..

    I guess some people just can't take a joke :)

    --
    The revolution will not be televised. It won't be on a friggin blog either
  24. Gentoo by Chaoslab · · Score: 1

    I am not laying flame bait here....

    But from experience I have talked to allot of people about linux and open source over the years and now I tend to say yeah open source is great! you actually seen any?

    I like to edit code and recompile it even if its to flavour the textual output of an application or kernel to something more personal like instead of "Safe to power off!" sort thing to "Safe to power off! no wait bzzzztttt!"

    From a philosophical stand point distributing the "open source" seem's a bit more to the point of to me. :-)

  25. please help me with my poor english,,, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    your .sig:
    --
    -Matt
    remove nospam for e-mail
    does "remove nospam" mean the same as "insert spam"? i'm not very fluent with those double negatives in english... THANKX!!!
  26. Installers for Gentoo Do Exist - sort of by langles · · Score: 2, Informative

    This is touched on a little bit in Jem's review, but I thought this would be a good place to add a few more notes:

    Gentoo's Install Documentation Lives here:
    http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/index .xml

    Many people, though, wish Gentoo had a more automated install.

    There is an "Official" Gentoo Installer Project.
    They are taking their time, with the hope of getting it right, making it useable for nearly everybody.
    Project Roadmap:
    http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/releng/ins taller/
    Mailing list archives here:
    http://news.gmane.org/group/gmane.linux.gen too.ins taller/
    Code snapshots:
    http://dev.gentoo.org/~tseng/installer -snapshots/

    Two altenative installers that people have actually used to get working Gentoo distributions:
    http://www.cs.luc.edu/projects/naj a
    http://glis.sourceforge.net/

    Other Gentoo Installer projects on Sourceforge that have actually released some code:
    http://sourceforge.net/projects/geninstalle r/
    http://sourceforge.net/projects/glbf/

    Some prototype code from Sridahr R., who since has switched to Debian:
    http://cs.annauniv.edu/~rsridhar/pub/proj ects/gli/

    Finally, here are four Gentoo-based distributions with their own installers:

    Vidalinux
    http://www.vidalinux.com/
    http://dis trowatch.planetmirror.com/table.php?dist ribution=vidalinux
    with a Anaconda-based installer:
    http://freshmeat.net/projects/gentooin staler/
    http://gentoo.vidalinux.com/?q=node/view/ 35
    Not sure if they survived their financial crunch:
    http://www.linuxbeta.com/index.php?page=a rticles&r elease=84

    Jollix
    http://www.jollix.de/en/en_about.html
    " a LiveCD based on Gentoo Linux Jollix boots directly from CD without touching the hard disk...
    Once jollix is installed on a hard disk, it can be updated via portage, the packet manager of Gentoo linux. In fact, jollix IS gentoo at this point (somehow preconfigured)."

    Navyn OS
    http://navynos.linux.pl
    "Navyn OS is the completed system build from Gentoo. It is also a live-cd so you can boot and run it from the cdrom drive. Since version 2004.07 there is a user friendly installer on the cdrom, and with only a few mouse clicks you can install the system onto your hard drive."

    Gentoox
    http://gentoox.shallax.com
    Installable Gentoo CD for the MS Xbox.

  27. I disagree... by some_random_person · · Score: 1

    I have to disagree on the comment about "no packages that you have to deinstall because you'll never use" I had to remove nano the last time I installed gentoo :)

  28. Pros and Cons by barryman_5000 · · Score: 1

    Most the ppl here are just saying "OMG, IT HARD INSTALL." Ok, we get it.

    Here are the pros and cons as I see for gentoo.

    Pros:
    -----

    Good Documentation -- I have always had a problem resolved by simply reading the documentation. If it was a hardware specific issue even the gentoo nerds will talk about in the forums :-D

    Fast(or slow?) -- Ok, this depends on how you set up your system but I have prelinked all my kde (though I use it none).

    Easy to install software -- Yes, I love emerge. I used to use a slackware based distro and throwing tarballs on my hd and then finding a missing dependancy made it suck. It would take me 30 minutes to find all the required software just to install something simple.

    Easy to update -- Once you have installed it, you can update by doing a emerge -uD world . . . oh I love this.

    Doesn't make you install stuff that may be harmful -- They try to keep beta or untested stuff from being installed on your computer. For such a "nerdy" demographic I find this amazing. It is definetly great that you can choose to install unsafe software anyhow.

    You learn -- This is arguable but I had never used hdparm before gentoo. Gentoo would be a good step towards learning before going to a linux from scratch since gentoo and LFS would go through the same steps.

    Cons:
    -----

    Hard to Install -- I agree it is more difficult than most. It wasn't too hard though. I went by the documentation and it went fine. Still takes quite awhile. An installer would make gentoo more popular.

    Compiling everything -- You can use binary packages so nobody tell me this.

    Not good for a network of pcs -- How often does a network need to update? Setup one computer and copy the system onto a cd (your own custom gentoo distro for a certain pc model!). You can set local portage mirrors too(binary packages). Anyhow, who is running linux on desktops that would want to use such a customizable distro? Get an easier distro to manage if you plan on customizing sound, etc.

    KDE TAKES FOREVER TO COMPILE -- ARRRGGGHHHH!!!

    This is all biased I know but I do consider the cons to really be cons for the most part.

  29. Re:what you get: no vi, ... by IAR80 · · Score: 1

    I cannot agree more. I might want to run it from a 64MB usb flash on hddless firewall pc.

    --
    http://ebgp.net/ccc/
  30. Re:what you get: no vi, ... by skiman1979 · · Score: 1
    emerge telnetd

    Why telnetd? Why not sshd? ssh is more secure.

    --
    Having a smoking section in a public restaurant is like having a peeing section in a public swimming pool.