Iran: Even If Windows Is Free, Linux Is Preferred

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Iran: Even If Windows Is Free, Linux Is Preferred

Posted by timothy on Monday September 20, 2004 @02:58PM from the non-abdication dept.

gpwiki.org writes "Iran, a country which does not abide by international copyright law, is reportedly moving toward Linux. 'All the software in Iran is copied. There is no copyright law, so everybody uses Microsoft software freely,' said the secretary of Iran's High Informatics Council. 'But we cannot continue like this much longer.' The article suggests that a desire to enter the WTO, and Windows security issues are prime motivating factors. 'Microsoft is a national security concern.'"

106 comments

Security concern? by SpaceLifeForm · 2004-09-20 15:03 · Score: 3, Insightful

Yep, here too.

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You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
1. Re:Security concern? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-22 00:26 · Score: 0
  
  karma whore
Iran by brilinux · 2004-09-20 15:07 · Score: 5, Funny

I-ran away from Windows to Linux too.
Sorry, I have been waiting to make an "Iran" pun for a while. Carry on.
1. Re:Iran by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-20 16:17 · Score: 0
  
  V pnaabg guvax bs tbbq ercylf. Ybat yvir ebg13.
2. Re:Iran by JeffTL · 2004-09-21 06:41 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  Well, it gets tough being stuck between Iraq and a hard place.
3. Re:Iran by The_reformant · 2004-09-23 12:24 · Score: 1
  
  let me guess... your american???
  
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  I have discovered a truly remarkable sig which this post is too small to contain.
Just as I thought... by BladeMelbourne · 2004-09-20 15:08 · Score: 5, Funny

It's just as I have been saying all along... smart people wouldn't use Windows, even if it were free...
1. Re:Just as I thought... by Curtman · 2004-09-20 15:29 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  Just wait for the Iranian antitrust trials. Bring on the death squad!
2. Re:Just as I thought... by gothzilla · 2004-09-21 01:19 · Score: 1
  
  Smart people will use whatever tool gets the job done the best and most efficient way, regardless of what anyone's personal opinion is. We all know what happens to businesses that let personal opinion dictate the choices they make.
  
  If your job is to set up a web server, the tools you choose will be totally different than if your job is to playtest games.
The WTO move is the prime incentive by Dancin_Santa · 2004-09-20 15:14 · Score: 4, Insightful

Joining the WTO would require Iran to abide by internationally agreed upon IP regulations (Bourne Convention) and the impact of suddenly enforcing copyright law against its citizens would be very heavy.

Even limiting enforcement to the government computer systems would result in significant layouts of cash to Microsoft (and other software makers). Iran is simply not in a position to make that kind of investment.

Likewise, it is difficult to see how Microsoft could do business with the rogue nation. It is under trade sanctions by the U.S. meaning that no American company can do business there without governmental approval. Microsoft itself may not want to involve itself in the possible arming of an "enemy of the state".

But in the end, it is laughable that the Iranian government would choose Linux over anything else. Though open source, Linux is primarily developed in the U.S. by American programmers working for American companies. Even Linus, Norwegian by heritage, now lives in comfortable quarters in Silicon Valley. Just because the code base is open does not mean that it is invulnerable to back doors. The official does seem to mention this, but the rah-rah tone of the article drowns this out. The Linux codebase, composed of hundreds of different, separate modules, is virtually incomprehensible in the whole and a full audit of the source code is essentially impossible as the code itself continues to change and 'improve'.

China had the right idea: develop your own operating system. While this may lead to a problem of lack of software, it can also be considered an economic boon as the market itself will be created by the demands of the government.
1. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by christopherfinke · 2004-09-20 15:25 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  to abide by internationally agreed upon IP regulations (Bourne Convention)
  I might be wrong, but I think you mean the Berne Convention. The Bourne Convention was where countries agreed to use
  
  $ export EDITOR=vi
  instead of
  
  % setenv EDITOR vi
2. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-20 15:29 · Score: 0
  
  Bourne/Berne
  
  Same as it ever was.
3. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by Curtman · 2004-09-20 15:42 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Though open source, Linux is primarily developed in the U.S. by American programmers working for American companies
  
  Are you insane? Are you suggesting that Iran would want to support one of the most vindictive and ruthless corporations in the world, and one of the largest sources of income for the US government who is currently on a rampage in their part of the world? Are you sharing whatever is being smoked over there?
4. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by saden1 · 2004-09-20 16:13 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  I'm sorry but I think the Iranians have capable developers that can full and quickly grasp all the subsystems of Linux. With state funding it is not hard to get top notch developers working on their own flavor of Linux. It doesn't take a genius to manage code change either. It's a simple get latest, inspect the changes made and incorporate the change into your codebase. I would also like to point out that a large percentage of engineers in the IT field are foreign born. You underestimate the competence of the world outside your own. Might also want to note that Iran is one the better nations in terms of mathematics even with its limited resources.
  
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  One is born into aristocracy, but mediocrity can only be achieved through hard work.
5. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-20 17:19 · Score: 1, Informative
  
  Even Linus, Norwegian by heritage, now lives in comfortable quarters in Silicon Valley.
  
  Finnish
6. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-20 17:37 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  Almost. He's Finnish-Swedish.
7. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by Singletoned · 2004-09-20 21:22 · Score: 1
  
  I think the prime incentive is that they are terrified that they are going to be next after Iraq and want to be seen to be joining the 'free world' of copyright enforcement, patenting, etc, in order to delay the inevitable US invasion of their country (whether economic or military).
8. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-20 22:32 · Score: 0
  
  The IMO is for kids. I don't see any Iranians represented in the competition for grown ups.
9. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by kraut · 2004-09-21 02:33 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  I think Linus would object to being called Norwegian. Fins are funny like that ... ;)
  
  --
  no taxation without representation!
10. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by JohnnyNoSPAM · 2004-09-21 07:13 · Score: 1
  
  No, he isn't suggesting that Iran wants to support American companies. Quite the contrary, actually. Iran doesn't want to use Microsoft Windows because it is an "evil American" company - regardless of whether or not Iranians are paying for it. So, they would rather go with another OS. The irony is, as he was pointing out, that even though Iran will not be supporting an American company, per se, the fact is that many, many of the developers in the world who contribute to Linux are Americans. So, Iran would still benefit from the intellectual work and competence of Americans. Recent world events being what they are, I do not consider Iran's desire to adopt Linux to be much of anything about which that I would particularly care to cheer. On the other hand, if the governments of the UK, Australia, Canada, or any other country outside of the Middle East were officially to adopt Linux then that would be something I would discuss with my friends and partners. But Iran? I do not consider Iran to be a prized ally for Linux or open source in general. Nope, I will just stick to reading about it in the news.
  
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  Get some.
11. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by Curtman · 2004-09-21 08:00 · Score: 1
  
  I wonder if there has ever been a comprehensive study on where open source contributors live. I don't mean to turn this into a GNU -vs- Linux discussion, I think for the most part that is arguing semantics and unproductive. However "Linux" itself comprises a very very small percentage of the binary code in a typical "Linux" distro. I doubt you could conclude that the majority of contributors are Americans, although that may very well be true, I just don't have any data to conclude one way or the other. I think a very attractive feature of open source is that for the most part it is impervious to things like US control unless they are also in the interests of the community as a whole. I'm sure that is big factor in the decision. I'm certainly not ashamed of the fact that Iran will be using open source software. I would be ashamed if there was an attempt to exclude anyone based on political interests. Freedom is freedom, and I think open source itself is a liberating force regardless of the policy of the governments that choose to use it. I'm a self confessed "linux zealot" though, and I make no apologies about that either.
12. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by JohnnyNoSPAM · 2004-09-21 09:32 · Score: 1
  
  I, myself, do not particularly care where Linux developers live. Notice, though, that I stated "many, many..." whereas the post states "most". I, too, did not have any statistics so I was not so bold or assuming to say "most". But, who cares? Indeed, arguing about where Linux users live is unproductive. One thing to note, however, is that Iranian officials cited "security concerns" with using Windows. **This is merely speculation**, but I am guessing that in a way it would be more beneficial to the United States from a national security point of view if Iranians were continue to use Microsoft Windows. That is, a Microsoft-U.S. government cooperation could insert some code into future updates, service packs, and versions of Windows that would allow the government or whoever to monitor systems and gather intelligence data. So, the benefit to the American people as a whole would greatly outweigh the loss of revenue for Microsoft by allowing pirated copies of the OS containing such code to be distributed in Iran and other places in the world considered to be points of interest. I am only guessing at all of that, but I imagine something along this line has at least crossed some minds. At any rate, I love the community of open source. I love having the freedom to choose what runs on my computer, and the freedom to see the code so that I can see exactly what is there should I choose to do something with that information. World politics aside, I believe that we would agree more than we disagree. What I am saying, though, is that considering world events, citing Iran as an ally to Linux would not be much of a boost (if anything, a negative) as to promoting Linux.
  
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13. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-21 12:48 · Score: 0
  
  We are also funny in a way that we do not like to be called Fins...
  
  Funny Finn
  
  ps. Finnish-Swedish = a Finn that speaks Swedish at his/her native language, nothing more or less.
14. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by tim_mathews · 2004-09-21 17:00 · Score: 1
  
  When the Bourne Convention decided on vi as the de facto editor, represenitives of many countries walked away from the negotiation tables and international relations took a huge step backwards. This is seen by many historians as the underlying cause of WWI. Of course, Austria, Germany, RMS and the other supporters of Emacs lost and vi was ahead for a time. There were attempts after the war to unite the world under the banner of peace and vi with the League of vi Using Nations, but the US backed out and the League soon collapsed.
  Some years later the banner of Emacs supremacy was raised again in the midst of a worldwide depression blamed by many on vi users. Again, after many years of bloody warfare the supporters of Emacs were defeated. In the aftermath of this second world war, the United Nations of vi was created.
15. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by derobertson · 2004-09-21 17:09 · Score: 1
  
  isn't the Bourne Convention the name of a novel by Robert Ludlum? Don't read novels very often so may be wrong.
  
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  castigat ridendo mores
16. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by weeboo0104 · 2004-09-22 07:50 · Score: 1
  
  Errr, don't you mean the Bourne Again Convention?
  
  --
  It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men. -Frederick Douglass
17. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by Lispy · 2004-09-23 02:52 · Score: 1
  
  Wasnt that the Bourne Identity?
18. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by Curtman · 2004-09-23 10:03 · Score: 1
  
  Indeed, arguing about where Linux users live is unproductive
  Who's arguing about it? I just don't think that Iranians or anyone else is going to abandon a technology just because a few Americans worked on it. That would be foolish.
  
  **This is merely speculation** ... a Microsoft-U.S. government cooperation could insert some code into future updates, service packs, and versions of Windows that would allow the government or whoever to monitor systems and gather intelligence data
  
  I also highly doubt that has anything to do with the motivation. Windows' record speaks for itself when it comes to security. There is no way for Iran to audit it's code, or close holes when problems come up. These issues are the same from Iran to Europe to North America.
  
  considering world events, citing Iran as an ally to Linux would not be much of a boost (if anything, a negative) as to promoting Linux
  
  That is what I take issue with. Considering world events, I would be equally less enthusiastic about citing the USA as an ally to Linux, maybe less so. Iran is not the worlds largest supplier of weapons, and Iran isn't the ones telling the government of my sovereign country how it should be conducting its business.
19. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by JohnnyNoSPAM · 2004-09-23 12:01 · Score: 1
  
  Touché on all points, my friend, however...
  
  I just don't think that Iranians or anyone else is going to abandon a technology just because a few Americans worked on it
  
  "... pragmatic considerations - not least because of the irony that Iran's information technology (IT) backbone is based on software from its arch-enemy, the United States." The fact that they do not want an OS because it is American is clear. Granted, it is not the only reason, and they do in fact some very practical reasons for the switch. But, to assume that animosity toward the U.S. has nothing to do with it is also foolish.
  
  I also highly doubt that has anything to do with the motivation.
  
  It was only a guess, anyway. However, I still think that such a move of covert tracking software included with the frequent Windows updates would be possible. The main point of that came later when I said that I was sure that the idea had at least crossed their minds. I agree that Windows security record speaks volumes for the OS ever so much more than any of Microsoft's rhetoric.
  
  Iran isn't the ones telling the government of [Canada] how it should be conducting its business.
  
  According to link that you provided, America has a problem Canada's lax laws regarding pot, and Canada has a problem with drugs coming in from the U.S. It seems that the issue works both ways, and our two countries seem to be working together. That's no big surprise; Canada and the U.S. work very well together as neighbors. I could see how a pot-smoker would find this objectionable. But, that's not really your point, I know...
  
  Stealing is wrong no matter how you look at it. If you don't agree with the license, then don't use the product. It's that simple. Iranian officials have stated that they don't feel the least but guilty about stealing. I think this speaks volumes their culture.
  
  I would expect a "... but the U.S./Americans [insert something bad the U.S. did here]." I won't waste my time with that sort of back and forth discussion, nor am I under the impression that you will, either. All I am saying is that considering world events, Iran's adoption of Linux is not something that would have many business professionals stop and give Linux a serious consideration because of the perception is that Iran is a nation of terrorists. Whether they are or not is a matter of perspective.
  
  So, I suppose that it is all relative. You and I share a very similar interest in Linux even though we do not share the same views in politics. But, that's OK. One of the beauties of the Linux community is that our community transcends such things. If only the rest of the world could catch on....
  
  Someday, maybe. But here's hoping :-)
  
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  Get some.
20. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by Curtman · 2004-09-23 13:25 · Score: 1
  America has a problem Canada's lax laws regarding pot, and Canada has a problem with drugs coming in from the U.S. It seems that the issue works both ways, and our two countries seem to be working together
  
  The silliness goes much further than that. The report from the US government about our proposed legislation harshly critisizes us for being too lenient on people who grow marijuana. The truely strange thing about it, is the bill itself doubles the penalties for growing marijuana, and softens the penalties for simple possession. It almost seems they didn't even read the thing. They just took the opportunity to spread a little FUD. I wholeheartedly dissagree with the entire thing, I think its completely backwards. The problme is the illegal drug trade, and the best way to attack that is by allowing people to grow their own pot, and throw the book at them the second they leave their house with it.
  
  My point was baited though, you just didn't bite. I really expected you to respond with a 'what does this have to do with anything'. That is the issue as far as I see it. None of that has anything to do with Linux, or free software. If we look at those issues, the things that we should be focusing on are software patents, government lobyists, and rediculous legislation.
  
  Iranian officials have stated that they don't feel the least but guilty about stealing
  
  What they said was that they don't respect copyright laws. Iran has MUCH more severe penalties for theft than the US does. If it isn't made illegal by their laws, then it isn't stealing. If they were to join the WTO, it would be. Just like Canada doesn't have to play along with the American nonsensical war on drugs. If we decide its stupid to lock people up for carrying a bag of weed around, then who is Dubya to tell us different?
21. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by JohnnyNoSPAM · 2004-09-24 06:04 · Score: 1
  
  It almost seems they didn't even read the thing.
  
  *gasp!* Say it isn't so! :-P
  U.S. legislatures sometimes (dare I say frequently?) vote or comment on bills within the United States that they have not read, so I find it to be of no surprise that they would not take to time to read a bill for/from any other country. reference: the U.S. Patriot Act. http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID =12126&c=207
  
  As for pot, I do not use the stuff; it's not my bag (pun intended). One argument, I suppose, is that pot leads to other drugs in addition to impairing judgment and abilities. My brother has been smoking pot for about 3 decades now. He has never gotten into other drugs, and has a professional degree. Perhaps it depends on circumstances. At any rate, I think that we would be better off going after the real organized crime - the big growers, the big dealers - and take them down. It's a waste of time and resources to be nickel and diming the small stuff.
  
  The idea that people would actually keep it in their own homes is not realistic, though. Look at alcohol. You can drink it; it's legal - just stay off the roads. Does that stop people from doing it? No. Drunk drivers kill so many people each year. The hard part is that we have already learned that prohibition doesn't work, either. So, I believe that the goal is to target the source. It's a tough call.
  
  I think that more or less, the Middle East is a medieval culture with the dangerous mix of having access to 20th and 21st century technology and weapons. I am sure that my saying "medieval" may be a controversial point in and of itself, but I say that given the Middle East people's willingness to inflict such incredible cruelty even to their own people like beheading, cutting of limbs, and so on. They are willing to mass murder all for the sake of religious principle.
  
  You could argue that the U.S. has done some terrible things. That would be true. The difference is that we recognize our mistakes and learn from them. We will never use nuclear weapons as a first strike. We no longer use, manufacture, or store chemical and biological weapons. From the days of WWI, WWII, Korea, and even as recently as Vietnam, the militarily no longer targets civilians deliberately. Consider the invasion. Whether you agree with the justification or not, the military did a nice job of disciplined strikes. There were some accidents, but that happens. By and large, they did a fantastic good job at striking only targets of interest, leaving buildings even net door virtually undamaged.
  
  I believe that one of the largest tragedies of 9/11 aside of the loss of life from so many victims was the assault on our civil liberties from our own government that soon followed. Part of my issue with the Patriot Act is that it broadened law enforcement agencies without a clear set of boundaries or checks and balances. For example, the so-called war on drugs is claiming some victories with the smuggling of pot into the U.S. from Canada thanks to provisions of the Patriot Act. Identity theft bloodhounds are looking to benefit from information the U.S. gathers from passenger flight data. You see, law enforcement officials long for sweeping powers. This is their ticket. If they have someone that they think is really, really bad, then all they need to do is create an abstract link to terrorism, and then they have all the power that they need.
  
  Is any of this related to Linux? No, not in any direct way. Except, as I mentioned earlier is that the community of Linux is made up of people from all over the world: all types of religions (including those people who prefer the absence of), all types of cultures, and so on. We don't waste our time fighting amongst ourselves for the most part. Instead, we celebrate and share something that we have in common: Linux. Unfortunately, I think that it
  
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22. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by Curtman · 2004-09-24 08:03 · Score: 1
  I don't know where your going with this, or where to begin with my disagreement with what you just said.
  
  The idea that people would actually keep it in their own homes is not realistic, though
  
  Are you saying its unrealistic to pass laws that people will break? Why are drugs even illegal in the first place then? Marijuana has been illegal since the Marihuana Tax Act of 1937. Do you think the current strategy is working any better today than it has in the previous 70 years? It seems to me, quite rediculous that someone would go purchase pot for $10/gram and risk fines and or time in jail when they could grow it in their own homes legally.
  
  Whether you agree with the justification or not, the military did a nice job of disciplined strikes. There were some accidents, but that happens.
  
  I wonder if you're serious here, or if you've just been watching too much Fox news? I'm not sure where you would go to get accurate counts of the number of Iraqi people killed in this invasion, because the US government has already said they have no count, or at least they aren't telling us if they do. Most estimates seem to place the number at about 30,000 with civilian casualties at about 10,000. If 1/3 is "disciplined", then that is shameful. They can't even seem to diferentiate between their allies and the enemy.
  
  I believe that one of the largest tragedies of 9/11 aside of the loss of life from so many victims was the assault on our civil liberties from our own government that soon followed.
  
  I disagree with this as well. The patriot act is an inconvenience. I highly doubt the murdered civilians in Iraq really care about the Patriot act at all. Keep in mind that even by the most conservative estimates, civilian casualties in Iraq far outnumber the number who died on 9/11/01. But the most important thing to remember is that this war in Iraq has nothing to do with the so called 'war on terrorism'. That's on hold until the US is able to secure its interests in Iraq. If this had anything to do with 9/11, the US would be invading Saudi Arabia right now.
  
  Getting back on topic though, that last paragraph seems to completely contradict what you originally said, being "I do not consider Iran to be a prized ally for Linux or open source in general". I believe that any attempt to discriminate against people based on their political, religious, or other beliefs as far as Linux/Opensource/Free Software goes is completely wrong, and shouldn't be tolerated. I like to think of it as Eben Moglen describes it:
  
  the single greatest technical reference library on Planet Earth, as of now
  
  Thats The Earth. Not the American Earth.
23. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by JohnnyNoSPAM · 2004-09-24 15:39 · Score: 1
  
  I believe that any attempt to discriminate against people based on their political, religious, or other beliefs as far as Linux/Opensource/Free Software goes is completely wrong, and shouldn't be tolerated.
  
  Who is discriminating? Once again, you failed to see the point. Allow me to refresh your memory...
  
  All I am saying is that... many business professionals [would not] stop and give Linux a serious consideration because of the perception is that Iran is a nation of terrorists.
  
  To put it another way, consider a radio station and a radio receiver. A radio sation can be putting out some excellent music with unbelieveable clarity and quality. If a radio receiver is not tuned to that station, then the signal is not received. So, it depends on the audience, my friend. If my colleagues were pot-smoking hippies who sat around and discussed the evils of society in the convenience of a smoke-filled room after having never performed any public service whatsoever, then I suppose that I could get the message across (used for example - no accusation or implication meant). However, my friends are not hippie pot smokers. They are mostly business professionals. Mind you, IT professionals, generally speaking and depending upon the quality of their training and experience, already know the value of Linux. Trying to bring awareness about the opportunities that Linux has to offer would be along the lines of preaching to the choir as the old saying goes. The decision as to whether or not to adopt Linux, BSD, or whatever vice maintining their current OS is a decision that ultimately is decided by the needs and ambition of the business with regard to cost and risk. Anyway, being business professionals, Iran doesn't from their perspective have much to offer. That is, due to U.S. trade sanctions against Iran, we cannot trade with them. There is no economic interest. Even if there were no sanctions, Iran would most likely choose not to trade with "the Great Satan". And, considering world events, they perceive Iran as a nation of terrorists. This perception existed long before 9/11. Recall the Iran Hostage Crisis during the Carter administration. So, to tell them that Iran has adopted Linux would not be saying much to them.
  
  Whether or not this perception is entirely or at all accurate is a matter of one's point of view. Likewise, if I were to tell some people from Syria that Iran has adopted Linux, the news may be received in a different way. Then again, it may not be received at all considering that they might not care to hear anything that an "evil American infadel" has to say.
  
  I'm not sure where you would go to get accurate counts of the number of Iraqi people killed in this invasion...
  
  Consider WWII. A tactic use among both the allies and the Germans was to bomb entire cities, and to bomb where people who had absolutely nothing directly to do with the military resided. Part of the tactic was psychological, in addition to striking targets like factories. America did this even in Vietnam. Vietnam left a bitter taste in the mouth of the Americans. The government lied to the American people and was sending troops to die in a war with no clear purpose or agenda for America or even a clear plan for winning the war. In fact, the U.S. was not even trying to win - the U.S. was trying to maintain a stalemate because of an idiotic, new (at the time) doctrine that winning wars spawns animosity which leads to more war (WWI >> WWII). Moreover, the war in Vietnam was more of an indirect confilict between the U.S. and the Soviet Union - using the Vietnamese.
  
  Moving back on to my point, the U.S. could have used tremendous indiscriminate fire power and bombs against Iraq. The U.S. did not. Was the invasion perfect... no, as you are so quick to point out. Remember, an invasion is a military function, our military was trained and trained well for such a function. Agree with it or not, invasion is a possible task for the military. They di
  
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24. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by JohnnyNoSPAM · 2004-09-24 15:45 · Score: 1
  
  Ooops ... I accidentally submitted the previous post (when I meant to preview) before making all necessary changes. Please bear with the obvious spelling errors and such. Thanks.
  
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25. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by Curtman · 2004-09-24 18:00 · Score: 1
  Who is discriminating? Once again, you failed to see the point. Allow me to refresh your memory...
  
  All I am saying is that... many business professionals [would not] stop and give Linux a serious consideration because of the perception is that Iran is a nation of terrorists.
  
  That is discrimination. Why would you think Iran is a nation of terrorists? Because you saw it on TV? Do you think that maybe when Arabs see Americans on TV calling them terrorists that they might think some pretty strange things about the USA? Because the reality of the situation is that the US is the aggressor in Iraq. Iraq did not fly any planes into the WTC. This war was completely unprovoked, and based on some undeniable evidence of WMD that have yet to be found. The terrorists are the ones engaging in terrorism, and I'm not talking about Iran or Iraq.
26. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-25 01:44 · Score: 0
  
  Likewise, it is difficult to see how Microsoft could do business with the rogue nation.
  Stop watching Fox News you insensitive clod!
27. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by JohnnyNoSPAM · 2004-09-25 02:35 · Score: 1
  
  That is discrimination... Why would you think Iran is a nation of terrorists?
  
  You are still not getting the point. Perhaps I need to break it down to you further still...
  
  Shortly after 9/11, I had a discussion with my wife in which we discussed that one of the things that we were afraid was going to happen was that people were going to start harassing peaceful Arabs living within our country in addition to harassing other American citizens who were of Arab decent simply because the terrorists were Arabs. Unfortunately, we were correct.
  
  In one instance in a store near to my home, I saw a couple of men harassing an Muslim lady, and they were threatening her. I called 911 on my cell phone to notify the police, and then I went over to the situation and I told the men that if they wanted to pick on someone, then try picking on me. Now, I am not a skinny person, nor am I stacked. I am a man of medium build. But that as it may, the truth is that - save some playful wrestling - I have never been in a real fight in my whole life. I was trying to come across that I could hold my own. Underneath, I was terrified. But, I felt that their harassing this lady was absolutely wrong. As it turns it, we exchanged some words, but the police got there VERY quickly. I guess others had called.
  
  You see, my friend, I personally do not have anything against the people of the Middle East. What I am trying to say is that regardless of whether or not it is right or wrong, many (but by far not all) Americans do in fact have a problem with people from Iran. Is that discrimination? OK, I can see your point as it applies here. Considering that many (not all) people even within business do not consider anything that Iran does to be of any significance is the point. They do not see the economic interest associated with Iran and/or simply do not like people from Iran. So, for me to tell these people that Iran has adopted Linux is not saying much to them.
  
  Let me also point out, though, that even though my wife and I were right on what we anticipated after 9/11, these morons [who held all Muslims responsible for the attacks] do not make up the majority population in America. I recall that in one community people who were not Muslims gathered around and kept watch over the mosque. They wanted to deter any acts of hate against the fellow members of their community who were Muslims.
  
  Did Bush's administration lie about the circumstances leading up to the invasion? It certainly is looking that way! Still, Saddam needed to go considering his crimes against humanity.
  
  --
  Get some.
28. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by JohnnyNoSPAM · 2004-09-25 02:56 · Score: 1
  
  Another thing that I was pointing out was that I also find it ironic that since one of Iran's considerations (although maybe not primary) was that Windows is a product of their arch-enemy, the Americans, they are switching to an OS to which is also contributed largely by Americans and was modeled after UNIX which was developed here in the country of their arch-enemy. Iranians don't want to use an American OS, and Americans don't consider anything that Iran does to be of any economic significance. The discrimination seems to be working both ways.
  
  --
  Get some.
29. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by Curtman · 2004-09-25 10:51 · Score: 1
  
  Perhaps I need to break it down to you further still.
  
  Not at all. What you should be doing is getting on with your life. I have no idea why you've taken it upon yourself to convince me of a logical fallacy, but you will never succeed. So you should probably just walk away from this discussion, having already dragged it as far off topic as humanly possible.
  
  You see, my friend
  
  I'm not your friend. I've never met you, and the things I've seen you write here, I disagree with intensely. I gather you're the kind of person who believes whatever he sees on the 6 o'clock news to be the absolute truth. My friends aren't like that for the most part. We often have opinions of our own.
  
  I personally do not have anything against the people of the Middle East. What I am trying to say is that regardless of whether or not it is right or wrong, many (but by far not all) Americans do in fact have a problem with people from Iran. Is that discrimination?
  
  Yes. Well actually, it is prejudicial. Discrimation is when you withhold something based on a prejudice, or believe that some group should be treated differently based on your prejudice. That is what you're suggesting, that Iranians shouldn't be treated as equals based on your prejudice. Your opinion is even less deserving of respect, because you won't even come right out and admit you're a bigoted racist. You simply believe that the free software movement should dissasociate itself from anyone whom the other racists feel is unworthy.
  
  Further, you are incapable of diferentiating between the attacks on 9/11, and the war in Iraq. You firmly believe the two are one and the same. I don't know how to speak to that, because it makes no sense at all, and there's no evidence to support it. You are the one speaking of Arabs as if they were all one homogeneous culture. That is rediculous. Its as rediculous as if I were to call all you caucasians "war mongers". Maybe not quite as rediculous, because I happen to be caucasian, and I know better.
  
  Still, Saddam needed to go considering his crimes against humanity.
  
  Ahhhh, one final FoxNews quote before you head out 'eh?
  
  --- (beeeeeep, next message)
  
  by Americans and was modeled after UNIX which was developed here in the country of their arch-enemy
  
  First sort out who "they" are, and if in fact America is "their" arch-enemy at all. If that was really the basis of their motivation, they wouldn't be joining the WTO in the first place, THEY would be flying planes into the WTO. (Just for the record, Iran also did not fly any planes into the WTC or the pentagon). I strongly disagree with US foreign policy, I think it has been responsible for more pain and suffering around the world than most of the political tyrants in other countries combined. However America is not my arch-enemy. Ignorance ranks right up there, but the people of the USA are not.
30. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by JohnnyNoSPAM · 2004-09-25 15:35 · Score: 1
  
  ... you won't even come right out and admit you're a bigoted racist. ... I gather you're the kind of person who believes whatever he sees on the 6 o'clock news ... you are incapable of diferentiating between the attacks on 9/11, and the war in Iraq.
  
  I must have really touched a nerve with you for you to resort to being personal. Perhaps this is personal to you. I have not resorted to personal attacks, and I would appreciate the same courtesy in return.
  
  First sort out who "they" are, and if in fact America is "their" arch-enemy at all.
  
  I was refering to the original article. Here is a link for convenience: http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=1 15&art_id=qw109567728080B265
  
  Curtman, as I have stated previously, I think that we would agree more than we disagree when it comes to Linux . I know that considering your hardening judgement against me due to your misinterpretation of what I have been trying to say, you are probably not open to that all. But that's OK. Allow me a few assesments if you will...
  
  >>Do we agree that Microsoft Windows is a very flawed product? Yes.
  >>Do we agree that Linux is an operating system that lacks the security vulnerabilities of Windows? Yes.
  >>Do we agree that racism and prejudice is wrong? Yes.
  >>Do we agree that the Bush administration lied about the circumstances leading up to the invasion? Yes.
  >>Do we agree that Saddam should have been removed from power? No.
  >>Do we agree that Linux is (and should be) made available for everyone? Yes.
  
  Curtman, I find that racism among any group of people is wrong. Business leaders - not IT specialists - will make the ultimate decision as to whether or not a business migrates to Linux. Many IT specialists already know that Linux is a preferable system. But, they are not the ones to be convinced; the ones who make the business decision - the business leaders - are the ones who need to be convinced. Unfortunately, many of them do not consider that Iran's adoption of Linux would be significant in terms of whether or not they (the business leaders) should also seriously consider migrating to Linux.
  
  A lot of this comes from years of animosity toward Iran as a country. Recall that I previously referenced the Iran Hostage Crisis during President Carter's administration. The animosity has been there long before 9/11. Their judgement of Iran has been hardened, and no matter what I say or do, I cannot change their minds. So, it is not advantageous for me (or anyone else for that matter) to try to convince them otherwise because simply this: they won't listen. I am aware of this. Is this perception of Iran right? No, Curtman, it isn't. But, I am not the one who needs to be convinced of it for I already know.
  
  Consider Mississippi during the 1960's. Would have telling a group of white working-class men that a group of black people have started using Soapsy Suds brand detergent made any differnce to them as whether or not they consider that brand of detergent? No, the opposite in fact.
  
  You see, considering who the audience is (American business leaders), I do not consider Iran to be much of an ally to Linux. Many business leaders don't care. Is this right... you don't have to preach to me that is not right.
  
  I personally do not care that Iranians want to migrate - not in a negative way, anyway. In fact, adopting Linux makes perfect IT sense. But, I don't need to convince you of that. I do find the use of Microsoft Windows without paying for it to be wrong. I do not agree with Microsft's license, therefore I do not use the product.
  
  As for where I get my news... I choose to go through a variety of sources for a variety of points of view. I find your multiple Fox News references
  
  --
  Get some.
31. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by Curtman · 2004-09-25 15:56 · Score: 1
  
  >>Do we agree that racism and prejudice is wrong? Yes.
  
  No, I don't think we do. If you said to me that we shouldn't be proud of Africa using Linux, because many business people think that black people are uneducated and poor, then I would also call you a racist. You just happen to think that way about Iranians being terrorists.
32. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by JohnnyNoSPAM · 2004-09-25 16:37 · Score: 1
  
  ...we shouldn't be proud of Africa using Linux...
  
  Ahhh... I see from where you are coming; I understand.
  
  "We" as in the Linux community should be happy that others regardless of who they are (race, national origin, religion, sex, sexual orientation, etc.) have chosen to migrate to Linux and to be a part of our community. I see your point, now, and I agree with you. Saying that the Linux community should not be proud of Iran's adoption of Linux is not what I was trying to say. My apologies for not making that abundantly clear.
  
  What I was saying is that to a lot of people here in the U.S. whom I would like to see take a serious look at Linux will not consider Iran's adoption as being significant because of thier own views of Iran. For those people, I would use other examples of Linux adoption. Being prejudice ultimately does not make good business sense. Business leaders can cause their businesses to lose a lot of petential revenue to prejudice. I would like to think that prejudice is not a part of my nation's society - even among the educated and successful, but I'd be smoking pot to believe otherwise (humor).
  
  Lastly, I forgot to mention this earlier (and not that you asked), but as for my ethnic background ... my background is largely Melungeon. The Melungeons were/are hybrid people of various ethnic backgrounds including Arab, Native American Indian, Caucasion, African, and others. http://www.melungeon.org/?BISKIT=3947677513&CONTEX T=cat&cat=10005 I use "were" because there was an attempt of ethnic cleansing through the years of my people. Only recently has there been at least some modest awareness of them. http://www.mediamonitors.net/brentkennedy1.html Anyway, I am a bit of a melding pot, myself, of ethnic backgrounds. So, for me to be racist against Arabs would be for me to be prejudice against my own ancestry. That would be like a person who is part black hating black people. I actually laughed a little bit at the racism comment... the humor was if Curtman only knew... :-P
  
  --
  Get some.
33. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by Curtman · 2004-09-25 18:23 · Score: 1
  What I was saying is that to a lot of people here in the U.S. whom I would like to see take a serious look at Linux will not consider Iran's adoption as being significant because of thier own views of Iran.
  
  What's funny is that every time you make a statement about not being a racist, you qualify it by saying that we should cater to the racists. Go back and read this thread from the beginning. It would be humorous if it wasn't so disgusting. What you said was:
  
  Recent world events being what they are, I do not consider Iran's desire to adopt Linux to be much of anything about which that I would particularly care to cheer
  
  I think that more or less, the Middle East is a medieval culture with the dangerous mix of having access to 20th and 21st century technology and weapons.
  
  I think you're having a problem with reality.
  
  That would be like a person who is part black hating black people
  
  There are plenty of people around who do exactly that. As a caucasian, I'm very ashamed of the attitude that so many people around me hold, and seem to take pride in.
34. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by JohnnyNoSPAM · 2004-09-25 20:39 · Score: 1
  
  Recent world events being what they are, I do not consider Iran's desire to adopt Linux to be much of anything about which that I would particularly care to cheer
  
  OK I can see that, but I further clarified what I meant...
  
  I am saying, though, is that considering world events, citing Iran as an ally to Linux would not be much of a boost (if anything, a negative) as to promoting Linux.
  
  The key word here was promoting. Further clarification meant identifying my audience:
  
  They are mostly business professionals ... due to U.S. trade sanctions against Iran, we cannot trade with them. There is no economic interest ... And, considering world events, [business professionals] perceive Iran as a nation of terrorists ..."
  
  Continuing on...
  
  I think that more or less, the Middle East is a medieval culture with the dangerous mix of having access to 20th and 21st century technology and weapons.
  
  A friend of mine, and a Sailor in the U.S. Navy, was born in Iran. He was adopted by a white American couple, and raised in the United States (and is an American citizen). Even though he is Iranian by birth, he was not raised there. He has no tangible memory of the place. I could never imagine his storming some place (like an embassy), taking hostages, and marching them blind-folded down a street among spectators. People from his birth country did that, but that's not him. He wasn't raised like that. It's not in him.
  
  Even though that Iranians did not participate in the attacks of 9/11, many of the terrorists in Iraq do come from Iran (along with Syria). I call them terrorists because they reosrt to violence and intimidation, and they have no problem with killing non-Americans (Iraqis).
  
  But for further calification, be sure to check out http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/en try/terrorist and http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/en try/terrorism
  
  Iraq and Iran used to be bitter enemies of one another. Anyway, they are neighboring nations, and Iranian terrorists (among others) are using the reconstruction as a "proving ground" against the Americans. The terrorists have no regard whatsoever for the well being of the innocent civilians.
  
  The tremendous cruelty of the culture is well documented... cruelty without the American presence ... cruelty amongst themselves. Terrorists, not Americans, are blowing up Iraqi police stations. Terrorists are the ones who are the risk of committing mass murders to the Iraqi people during their elections. A lot of the murdering and unbelieveable cruelty (beheadings, for example) comes from within the Middle East, not the United States.
  
  But, as I further clarified for you...
  
  The Iraqi people want more for themselves than what the terrorists have in store for them...
  
  That is to say, they no longer want their culture to be dominated by iron-fisted dictators who would just as well murder mass populations of people who oppose them. The history of the Middle East in the last century or so is one in which dictatorships and other forms of totalitarian governments have ruled with fear. This bears some similarity to European medieval period. Penalties for perceived treason and other crimes were severe and unbelieveably cruel. It would horrible to imagine what Euopeans at the time could have done with modern (20th and 21st century) wepaons and technology.
  
  But in spite of all of that, you seem bent on the idea that I am a racist. I doubt that there would be anything in the world that I could say that would convince you otherwise. But then, I don't need to because that's OK.
  
  I find your sensitivity toward seeking out racism or "the evils of society" to
  
  --
  Get some.
35. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by Curtman · 2004-09-26 07:36 · Score: 1
  
  A friend of mine, and a Sailor in the U.S. Navy,
  
  Perhaps you should put out your own line of children's books. Call it 'The Little Bunny Joins The KKK', or something. It could be just packed full of little stories that on the surface seem quite benign, but you could more easily defend your bigoted ideals, because nobody would be looking for them there.
  
  I find your sensitivity toward seeking out racism or "the evils of society" to distract your ability fully to comprehend on an objective basis
  
  Do you really believe that you've said anything of any great importance? Your entire argument is that the middle east is a bunch of savages, and we should be embarrassed by them. You and the people who think the way you do disgust me. Thats about as objective as your going to get. I'm sure there is a rally coming up nearby that you could find other like minded people.
36. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by JohnnyNoSPAM · 2004-09-26 10:08 · Score: 1
  
  You and the people who think the way you do disgust me
  
  Again, case in point.
  
  As a caucasian, I'm very ashamed of the attitude that so many people around me hold, and seem to take pride in.
  
  I do not feel ashamed of the actions of others because my self-esteem comes from within and is not derived from the actions or beliefs of others.
  
  I think you're having a problem with reality.
  
  An introspectional look at yourself may suit you well.
  
  My last post was my last discussion (as this is my last post in the thread), and I never anticipated a reponse. Perhaps you are one who cannot go away without having the last word. If that's the case, then have at it ... it's yours :-)
  
  Take Care.
  
  --
  Get some.
37. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by Curtman · 2004-09-26 12:06 · Score: 1
  my self-esteem comes from within and is not derived from the actions or beliefs of others
  
  Based on your previous rants, I figured it came from watching war history movies, and going to gun shows.
  
  My last post was my last discussion
  
  No it wasn't. Because you're still here.
  
  Perhaps you are one who cannot go away without having the last word. If that's the case, then have at it ... it's yours
  
  Awesome. Thanks.
38. Re:The WTO move is the prime incentive by Yusuf+Smith · 2004-09-26 19:09 · Score: 1
  
  Linus is Swedish, not Norwegian by heritage, and was born in Finland. Why would Iran care about the US government's trade policy anyway, when it can simply download Linux for free from any number of websites?
Pure Choice by MBCook · 2004-09-20 15:23 · Score: 2, Insightful

This is almost an expirament. New users are offered a choice between two operating systems: Linux and Windows. Both are free (from their point of view). Both let you surf the internet.
Why? Well, what keeps so many people on MS software? It's that they have old programs that they have to use. They have to access old data. They have to interface with their office that uses MS software. People are "tied down" so it's harder to move. But very few people over there are tied down the way many people here are.
Second is security. People know Linux is relativly secure. People know about all the viruses, spyware, security holes, and other stuff on Windows. If you had no predisposition (like previous expiriance with Windows or software that needed Windows), then which would you choose?
And of course, there is the political. As the article mentions, some people run Linux because it's not MS, which comes from the US. Some people run it out of anti-US sentiment. And they are probably some that run Linux because not because of anti-US sentiment (in the death to all Amercians sense) but because of non-US sentiment (doesn't come from the US, might be a Iranian distro which would keep money/jobs there). Same reason some EU countries are looking a SuSe or other distros, or China is trying to make their own OS (or was it Linux distrobution).
This (and especially Iraq) will be interesting to watch, to see how new users with no/few predispositions (how many people in the US think ALL computers just run Windows, and there is nothing else?) will buy and use computers. Will they go for the standard (MS, Adobe, Macromedia, whoever), or go for underdogs that they like better or have better features (OSS, smaller companies, etc.).

--
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
1. Re:Pure Choice by novakyu · 2004-09-20 17:34 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Why? Well, what keeps so many people on MS software? It's that they have old programs that they have to use. They have to access old data. They have to interface with their office that uses MS software. People are "tied down" so it's harder to move. But very few people over there are tied down the way many people here are.
  IDK, but for most people (er, my friends in school) I know, backward-compatibility has nothing to do with why they use Windows. For one, they haven't used computer long enough, and most of them don't have any files that are important enough for them to back up when they format their hard drive to get rid of their abundant Adwares. I blame it more on laziness, ignorance (lack of information not expertise), and prejudice.
  Laziness, because they are content to use whatever OS happens to come with their computers, whether it works or not.
  Ignorance, because they still think Linux is hard to install and hard to set up and hard to use. Get a Suse distribution or something (although I wouldn't use it myself...too much like OS X or Windows...too encumbered with programs that I know I will never use...I prefer LFS system to any distribution).
  Prejudice, because even when they know the progress desktop Linux has made last few years, they say, "Oh, but everyone uses Windows and I don't really want to be left out, and you know, I really need that word processing program in Windows."
  Anyway--I do agree it will be interesting to see how countries without previous commitments will choose, at this level of Linux maturity.
2. Re:Pure Choice by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-20 19:02 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  This (and especially Iraq) will be interesting to watch, to see how new users with no/few predispositions (how many people in the US think ALL computers just run Windows, and there is nothing else?) will buy and use computers. Will they go for the standard (MS, Adobe, Macromedia, whoever), or go for underdogs that they like better or have better features (OSS, smaller companies, etc.).
  
  Iraq will only be free of predispositions typical to people in the US if it will some day be able to gain sovereignity from the US. Seeing that the primary goal of the current Iraqi puppet regime is to protect the interests US-based corporations have in Iraq, I'd be surprised if the regime failed to attempt seizing the Iraqi OS market for MS.
3. Re:Pure Choice by Minna+Kirai · 2004-09-21 21:41 · Score: 1
  
  backward-compatibility has nothing to do with why they use Windows.
  
  Yes they do. Those people want to view files coming to them from Windows computers, either by email or web downloads- and that's backwards compatibility. If you need to communicate with users of MS Office or anything similar, backwards-compat matters to you.
4. Re:Pure Choice by NidStyles · 2004-09-23 03:28 · Score: 1
  
  You are looking at it in a very black & white way. I run M$ because the industry standards of modelling, and animation software are on there, and I'm not willing to spend twice as much on a Mac, which I can't upgrade on my own periodically. I certainly don't want to spend 1200$USD on a piece of software, and then anothr 3500$USD on a Mac, and find that I have to spend another 3500$USD when I spend another 500$ to upgrade my software. That's just idiotic. Not to mention the waste I'd have in time waiting for the new Mac to get here. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for there to be some Linux distro, that can handle what I need, but the truth is, that there's none out there currently. I've tried the Blender for Linux, and it's way behind, and a ways to go before I could ever use it for something I work on. Till then I run M$.
  
  --
  Yes, I said it.
The Evil West by redhotchil · 2004-09-20 15:24 · Score: 0

Probably even more prevalent is the idea of the "evil" West, and that no self-respecting muslim would use a piece of software so built in American, etc, etc.
Correction by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-20 15:26 · Score: 0

Terrorists want you to use Gentoo! Just think! Every airport in the nation, still compiling their profiling apps! Ohh my!

Forcing the employees to actually work. Now you really know who's winning this thing.

Wait, let me put it another way. Imagine a beowolf cluster of airpo-- never mind.
Linux: the official OS of terrorists by ipinkus · 2004-09-20 15:37 · Score: 2, Interesting

this is NOT going to help linux' image at all...

(ps, i know we supposedly like iran comparatively)
1. Re:Linux: the official OS of terrorists by Yi+Ding · 2004-09-22 07:53 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, just wait until Microsoft gets a new round of FUD out of this:
  
  "We must stop open source because it gives high tech operating system technology to rogue nations who will use it in their plans of global nuclear proliferation."
Easy by Reducer2001 · 2004-09-20 15:50 · Score: 1

emerge sync
emerge choice
emerge freedom

--
When you get to hell -- tell 'em Itchy sent ya!
1. Re:Easy by TeknoHog · 2004-09-20 20:28 · Score: 1
  
  Hey, you better test for updates and dependencies before you emerge for real (see my sig).
  
  --
  Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
2. Re:Easy by endx7 · 2004-09-21 08:31 · Score: 1
  
  That may take a little too long. Is there something pre-built we can use?
  
  -- Iranian government.
Holy crap! by juggleme · 2004-09-20 16:03 · Score: 3, Funny

Am I the only one that read that headline and wondered why Slashdot started an Iran section?
1. Re:Holy crap! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-25 12:27 · Score: 0
  
  Yes, Mr. Idiot American, you are the only one.
Interesting... by rincebrain · 2004-09-20 16:12 · Score: 3, Interesting

This reminds me of back in the DOS and pre-DOS days, and even Win 3.x, when most software I saw around was copied. I can remember bringing bits and pieces of software home from the office to use on my computer, such as it was at the time.

It's interesting to see how this plays out. On the one hand, we have the tried-and-tested Windows, which, from their point of view, is easier, but costs a lot of money...or Linux, which has no legal threats [ignoring, for the moment, the SCO lawsuits, certain video codecs, and other matters of similar irrelevance], but something of a porting cost, given that you'll have to train the former M$ pirates to run Linux.

Also, it's important to note that an improperly configured Linux system is even more vulnerable than an improperly configured Windows system...after all, how many Windows systems will let you run cat /dev/zero > /dev/hda without rebooting? =)

--
It's only an insult if it's not true.
No Copyright, No GPL by superyooser · 2004-09-20 16:14 · Score: 2, Insightful

Iran, a country which does not abide by international copyright law, is reportedly moving toward Linux.
The GPL is predicated on copyright law.
1. Re:No Copyright, No GPL by GreyWolf3000 · 2004-09-20 17:32 · Score: 1
  
  Which means...
  If someone in Iran starts redistributing modified GPL code in violation of the GPL, you can't go after them.
  How is that any different than the way things are now?
  Do you really see a big-time software corporation springing up out of Iran overnight selling software that, to us, looks conspicuously like Linux?
  
  --
  Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
2. Re:No Copyright, No GPL by isorox · 2004-09-20 19:49 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Without copyright law, the GPL degrades to BSD or Public Domain (IANAL). Any derived work is also free of copyright. No real harm there.
3. Re:No Copyright, No GPL by gl4ss · 2004-09-20 22:46 · Score: 1
  
  ...did you stop at that?
  
  they're wishing to join several international organizations which would require them to make up a copyright law, and thus they wouldn't be able to use microsoft's products for gratis anymore, which would be the whole point in turning to gpl'd software, being able to use them for free.
  
  --
  world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
It's about GAMES by superpulpsicle · 2004-09-20 16:48 · Score: 0, Offtopic

There is still IMHO no games in linux. Every game comes out for linux years later. I have never seen a game released the same day for linux and windows. Of course this probably doesn't concern Iran much since I can't imagine much of a Quake or wolfenstein community there.
1. Re:It's about GAMES by Surye · 2004-09-20 17:04 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  http://unrealtournament.com/
  
  UT2K4 and UT2K3. Linux install packaged.
  Enemy Territory. released for both at the same time.
  
  These are so popular, it makes me wonder is you've even looked. Please keep such uneducated, uninformed remarks to a minimum. You'd hate for someone to call it FUD.
2. Re:It's about GAMES by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-20 17:29 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Again with the gamers. You know, computing is not all about gaming. It's about other things like: networking, development, word processing, databases, and system administration. Linux holds its own in those departments.
3. Re:It's about GAMES by eggstasy · 2004-09-20 18:39 · Score: 1
  
  That's one. Now, how many other games have been released for windows but not for other platforms?
  And it's not just the games. F/OSS is fine and dandy, but people would rather just continue to use what they have become accustomed to. So, ironically, when Linux has more proprietary software available for it, more people will be likely to try it.
4. Re:It's about GAMES by Surye · 2004-09-20 18:46 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  So, ironically, when Linux has more proprietary software available for it, more people will be likely to try it.
  
  I agreed up to this point. It's the fact that Firefox is no proprietary, and that people use it crossplatform more now that there will be comfort later. Same thing on a much smaller scale with things like OpenOffice.org. Proprietary software in Linux will not create ANY form of comfort, especially in the area's the rest of your post focuses on, which is comfort through past experience.
5. Re:It's about GAMES by tolan-b · 2004-09-20 23:40 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  Uh no, that's 3.
  
  Doom3 Linux client is expected shortly too. Quake 3 linux client came out shortly after the windows version.
  
  Yes there are certainly less mainstream games on Linux, but some of the biggest name ones to come out.
6. Re:It's about GAMES by Paladin128 · 2004-09-21 01:38 · Score: 1
  
  UT2003 and 2004 -- Linux client shipped at the same time.
  
  QIII -- Linux demo was out BEFORE the Win32 demo. Commercial version shipped simultaneously
  
  Wolfenstien -- simultaneous ship.
  
  NWN -- ok, this sucked. We were promised a simultaneous release, but didn't get the game till a year later.
  
  Doom 3 -- released last month for Win32, coming out for Linux next month. Not perfect, but not bad either.
  
  Yeah, Linux is not the #1 platform for games. But it has some good ones, and a lot of potential. If your #1 priority is games, don't use Linux. If you care about security, stability, and freedom a little more than fragging your opponent in the WW2 FPS of the month, however, it's an option. I still play QIII and UT2003... so do most of my Windows-using friends.
  
  --
  Lex orandi, lex credendi.
7. Re:It's about GAMES by jonadab · 2004-09-21 03:00 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  > There is still IMHO no games in linux.
  
  If that mattered very much, we'd all be using Amiga or DOS, not Windows.
  Windows was a *horrible* platform for games, and game developers avoided it
  for _years_ (in some cases releasing games for DOS and requiring Windows 95
  users to reboot in command-prompt mode), but eventually they had to embrace
  Win32 because it was so widespread, and they needed to sell the games to
  people who didn't know how to use DOS.
  
  Amiga, in contrast, was *great* for games; game developers *loved* it. But
  they gave it up when it became clear that it was going to stay a small market.
  
  Games don't drive OS adoption. They follow it.
  
  --
  Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
8. Re:It's about GAMES by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-21 06:39 · Score: 0
  
  Games drove the industry. Without the games, kids won't want to run linux. When these kids grow up, they will run the platform they were most used to.
9. Re:It's about GAMES by 0racle · 2004-09-21 09:15 · Score: 1
  
  In a home with a family it is. Yes the computer may be used for homework or doing taxes and balancing the families books, but it has to do everything the family wants, and Linux fails miserably when it comes to games. It therefore doesn't do everything the family needs.
  
  --
  "I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
10. Re:It's about GAMES by mrgreen4242 · 2004-09-21 14:33 · Score: 1
  
  Well, for the price of a single copy of WinXP you can go buy a brand new GameCube, a used Playstation2, or a used XBox. And that's comparing to the cheapest copy of XP available, an OEM Home edition. If you want a retail Pro edition or a non upgrade or OEM home copy, you'd be able to add an extra controller and a game or two to that console system.
  I used to be an anti-console kinda guy, and played all my games on PC, but I switched to Linux and got a GameCube, which I have liked quite a bit. Also, from what I can see, consoles are where games are going to be at in the future. As more publishers become fed up with PC game piracy, and increased cost of technical support and development that PC games bring due to variations in hardware, they will see the console as being a better deal.
  If only some FPS game maker would sell their game with a mouse and a keyboard (even a small keypad size affair that I could custom map to my liking)...
  Oh, I forgot to add in the saved costs of not needing a $150-200 video card, and whatever extra hardware a gaming rig would have over a internet/office suite/multimedia PC. There's another 4 games at least!
11. Re:It's about GAMES by crackshoe · 2004-09-21 15:34 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  i think america's army is also linux.
  
  --
  Don't worry - its just stigmata. Pass me a napkin and don't you dare tell my mother.
12. Re:It's about GAMES by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-22 05:00 · Score: 0
  
  bah . Thats not the spirit ! You are supposed to get mad about the lack of linux games, and declare, "I am going to do it myself !!", then go to sourceforge and start a project to re-create (cough, rip-off, cough) your favorite game (starcraft, warcraft, DDR, etc.), then have in alpha for 2 years, and finally abandon it before it ever has a chance to reach mature or stabile.
Yet another reason... by NJVil · 2004-09-20 16:48 · Score: 2, Funny

To put Iran firmly in the Axis of Evil.
Re:Maybe i'm missing something... by katanan · 2004-09-20 16:52 · Score: 1, Redundant

what sort of dictum states that open source software should have a limited userbase? what exactly makes Iranians, North Koreans and Syrians not 'worthy' of using the software we choose to use? just wondering.
Oh crap. by Kickasso · 2004-09-20 19:36 · Score: 1

rm gcc-3.4.2/gcc/haifa-sched.c
1. Re:Oh crap. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-21 18:34 · Score: 0
  
  Huh?!
Iran away by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-20 22:48 · Score: 0

They won't have any computers in a couple of years
anyway after they get blown to Hell.
1. Re:Iran away by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-25 12:30 · Score: 0
  
  So nice of you to wish 70 million people death and destruction of the type happening in Iraq. Let me guess, you are an American - excuse me - an Idiot American - aren't you?
The HIC talk campaign goes on and on.. by a.ameri · 2004-09-21 00:21 · Score: 5, Informative

The High Informatics Coucil (HIC) is an organisation which has been talking for a couple of years now, about this Open Source thing, this Linux thing, and ect, but really they haven't done anything. They even don't have a clue what they are talking about.

I am an Iranian and I used to work for a company which was the first to start doing some Linux activities in Iran. We started by designing a keyboard layout for Persian, and when GTK 2.0 and Qt 3.0 were released and had enough Unicode support to enable us to write Persian using them, we started the FarsiKDE project http://www.farsikde.org and with the release of KDE 3.1, our small handicapped and fully underresourced team was able to add Farsi as an official language to KDE. Next step, we launched a community-driven website http://www.linuxiran.org to help build momentum around Linux in Iran. And then, we started building our own Debian-Based distribution called Shabdix, and it even had a couple fo limited releases. (all this was done in true Open Source fashion, free in both senses).

During all this time, the HIC did nothing to support us, althought they were fully aware of our program. The HIC is just so full of bearucracy, that it can't even decide what it wants to do, and which direction it wants to go. All they have done, with their massive resources and budget, is just publish a couple of already-available fonts as beta, and then also publish some meaningless Request For Comments to implement things that were implemented years ago (like UTF-8 support in toolkits such as Qt and GTK). They can't even decide on a standard keyboard layouy. The Persian Keyboard layout in Windows is a mess, it doesn't have comma, Persian numbers,... and the one in XFree86 is much better, but they can't even agree to use that keyboard layout. All these years, they have made many public announcements about deploying Linux systems in Iran, about how Linux is the future and blah blah, but they have yet to do a single meaningful action. And they failed to support the only group which was actually doing something and producing some actual code.

But Of course, they need to have the PR going, cause they need to get an increase in their budget next year, and well, PR is the best way to impress lawmakers to give them the budget. And Saying 'We won't even use Windows even if it was free' is certainly going to make headlines, and keep the PR machine going. While I personaly have been to HIC, and know that even they use pirated copies of Widnows all over the place, internaly.

Such a shame, so many resources is being wasted by this entity, for no use.

--
-- /* Those who don't underestand Unix, are condemned to reinvent it poorly */
1. Re:The HIC talk campaign goes on and on.. by roozbeh · 2004-09-22 05:45 · Score: 2, Informative
  Well, it's called HCI, not HIC. It's called "Request for Proposals", not "Request for Comments".
  Anyway, I was among the original supporters and architects of the HCI Persian Linux (FarsiLinux) effort, but it's now far from under any kind of influence from me, and I don't approve most of their actions, I even agree that they don't understand the whole notion properly yet. But it has good effects, specially when they provide funds to companies who loved to work on Linux but couldn't hire good developers. They also have the courage to recommend Linux to the government and the corporations, which helps the evangelization effort. Just look at their home page (top left). Which government organization in the world has the courage to put a Tux logo on their first page?
  The history you are mentioning, is partially false and partially incomplete. Just some examples:
  
  The whole effort of localizing Linux to Persian in a standard way was started before any company was interested in the matter, by Sharif University of Technology's computing center.
  
  The keyboard layout you are mentioning, which I assume is the one in XFree86 (latest version here), is not designed by any company. It's based on the Iranian standard ISIRI 2901, funded by the same HCI in 1998. It was I who provided the information to Rubert Brady, who then worked for SuSE, as you can see in the file's header. You can also see my Sharif email address there.
  
  The Windows keyboard layout is a mess, yes, simply because they did not have any contact with Iranian experts to tell them about the national standard, which was developed by HCI. HCI has already agreed to the layout, of course, or otherwise why should have them published it back in 1998?
  
  Shabdix, the distribution you are talking about, is actually Knoppix-based. HCI is also funding the Chapar Shabdiz company, the distributors of Shabdix, for their release 1.0. I don't recall the exact amount, but it was more than USD 25,000.
  
  You are mentioning that HCI is defining projects for adding UTF-8 support in Qt and GTK+. That's not so. They are asking for proper internationalization and localization of such programs and libraries. Some examples are: user-friendly bidirectional editing and display (which is very hard), proper display of Persian numbers (which use different shapes than common European ones known in the world as Arabic), proper support of Iranian calendar, etc.
  
  You are claiming that Chapar Shabdiz was the "only" producer of "actual code". Please show me the code generated by them, and compare it with the amount of code created by Sharif people (GNU FriBidi is just an example, co-maintained by me, used in Abiword and GNOME, and included in many distribution including Fedora and Mandrake). As far as I can tell, there is only one piece of code included in international Linux distributions created by Chapar Shabdiz, and that is the Iranian calendar support in KDE's PIM.
  --
  --
  A member of the first GPL-ed software project in my country
This is GREAT! by h8macs · 2004-09-21 01:12 · Score: 2, Interesting

I am all for the exchange of ideas and a fostering of ties between communities. I would believe that the community of hackers would not shun the idea like our government counterparts have shunned other such opportunities.

I for one would browse their LUG's online community site often and with interest.

--
:-( --- argh. Despair, I owe again. :-b
Linux VS Windows - Consistency! by lemieuski · 2004-09-21 04:35 · Score: 0, Troll

Even if I get modded down, I just have to say it... There is zero consistency in Linux. Absolutely zero standards between flavours. Why can't anyone see that? If everyone switched to Linux tomorrow and everyone had their own preference in flavour. How would it work? PLEASE TELL ME. Am I wrong? (/me hides)
Re:Maybe i'm missing something... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-21 04:54 · Score: 0

Maybe they can teach Bash in the mullahs.
Is this some kind of Goatse reference that I'm not aware of?
and Iran.. by The+Unabageler · 2004-09-21 05:30 · Score: 4, Funny

I walk along the avenue,
never thought I'd meet an OS like youuuuu
meet an OS like youuuuu.............
with free software and free gui
the kind that lets me live so freee
like speech and beer it's freee......
and Iran, Iran so far away,
and Iran, Iran so far away,
linux couldn't get away.

--
perl -e '$_="\007/4`\cp%2,".chr(127);s/./"\"\\c$&\""/gees; print'
Unix is a creation of the west ... by AHumbleOpinion · 2004-09-21 12:08 · Score: 1

Unix is a creation of the west, AT&T, and was "opened up" by UC Berkeley. If we are going to apply "kosher"(1) rules to Unix then it is tainted and unclean.

(1) Apologies to Muslims, I don't know the term for your dietary rules.
1. Re:Unix is a creation of the west ... by jc42 · 2004-09-21 15:27 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Unix is a creation of the west, AT&T, and was "opened up" by UC Berkeley.
  
  Yeah, and the Internet was developed mostly with funds from the US Defense Department. Funny how people everywhere are ignoring that and adopting it despite its evil origins. Actually, the story is a bit similar to unix, since the actual development was done in a lot of universities and companies. The military took the code and cloned it, but left the public version behind, and it's that version that became the public Internet.
  
  Apologies to Muslims, I don't know the term for your dietary rules.
  
  The term is "halal" (with a few variant transliterations). The rules are nearly identical to the Jewish kosher laws, with a few differences from centuries of different religious interpretation. There are a number of food suppliers in the US that are certified under both the kosher and halal laws. Only the most rabid fundamentalists (Muslim or Jewish) would be offended by your confusing them.
  
  And, of course, even if you don't believe in these laws, you still might buy the food because of its high quality. I even know a number of Muslims that buy Hebrew National hot dogs, because they like them and trust the maker to not contaminate them.
  
  --
  Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
General GPL exploit ... by AHumbleOpinion · 2004-09-21 12:22 · Score: 2, Insightful

Which means if you only distribute your closed variant of a GPL'd project from a jurisdiction with no copyright then you are home free? Impractical, yes, today. But if the world ever does reach a point where electronic distribution of commercial software is the norm this might become more attractive to some, hardware drivers only available from *.co.ir?
1. Re:General GPL exploit ... by Minna+Kirai · 2004-09-21 21:47 · Score: 1
  
  Which means if you only distribute your closed variant of a GPL'd project from a jurisdiction with no copyright then you are home free?
  
  Great idea! Also, we can buy $0.05 Windows XP CD-Rs on the sidewalk in Tehran and then resell them for $99 in the USA! That'll be perfectly legal.
  
  Or heck, why bother going to Iran? Just sail 300 miles out into international waters, where national laws stop applying, and copy away!
I wouldn't use windows for the world by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-21 14:17 · Score: 0

I wouldn't use windows for the world!!! Linux is way better!!! Now I'm going to express myself more clearly.

I LIKE LINUX
IT'S WAY BETTER THAN WINDOWS
STINKY OL' WIDOWS
EVIN IF IT WERE FREE
I WOULD USE LINUX
CAUSE WINDOWS IS ***
(I refrain from calling widows it's rightful name)

Ps. I'm not an 'Anonymous Coward', it's just that I haven't taken the time to register.
Well, there are a lot of websites by NiklasD · 2004-09-22 05:26 · Score: 1

Ironically, there are quite a lot of iranian websites that require this evil imperialistic US browser. Try
Key2Persia and
Iran Air

Niklas

--
Don't drink and sudo
Every OS is bad - no, really by phodex · 2004-09-22 18:31 · Score: 1

I just listened to an extremely interesting talk on OS and Processors. The speakers were developing a 3D Desktop & collaboration environment using Small Talk (maybe one word). It's 1970's stuff, but it's got the flexibility to be tweaked in ways none of today's languages can be, including JAVA. They're not just saying Small Talk was ahead of it's time, more importantly, the time for that kind of software language is Long Long Over Due!

If I understand it correctly, it's because of the idea of late binding. It allows them to make changes to any level of the code including the core without having to rework every other level. Just about (if not) every other OS is built with early binding and though it's faster at first, once you go thought a few upgrades, improvements require more and more rework until it reaches the point that you either start over or learn to live with it not working optimally. MS did start over with NT and it was a prime example because very little written for DOS/Win95 would work in NT. It only took about a decade to finally kill ME! Windows ME that is. I still wonder if ME was meant to flop to pave the way for XP. I know, you don't wonder... You know.

But what you don't know is what a 3D OS could mean. Here's my daydream of it. An OS where the "Wall Paper" can be a real room, fed by sensors that detect people's placement and movements. Say you have a secretary working on a new Croquet OS Computer and once in a while she "zooms" around the "building" to see where people are and how they are doing. They're all wearing PDAs fitted with 3D Viewers so she can talk to them, and they can see her as she "virtually" moves through the building. Say she finds a worker has slipped on a spill in the bathroom and is knocked unconscious. (It's not a camera, so it's ok for her to walk through places like the bathroom). So she can "run" or even teleport to another worker responsible for medical emergencies and they can even "follow" her by watching her in their 3D viewers as they run down the hall to help the injured employee. Meanwhile, she's able to call 911 because she's still sitting at her desk (though she'd probably do it through a virtual phone anyway).

Video conferencing could be Virtual Conferencing in very detailed rooms with high resolution models of CEOs all tracked and mimicked in a 3D conference room. Eventually they could even be able to stand up and walk around each other (or even through each other :-P )

But to make all this happen, the developers are leaning heavily on past technologies that have not seriously been developed until now. Currently the one OS I know of is less than 10 MB and it's in pre Alpha, but it's coming!

Wm
Evil, evil [Re: The Evil West] by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-25 01:49 · Score: 0

Probably even more prevalent is the idea of the "evil" West..
Yeah, and they can't use Red Flag Linux either because that's from the "evil" East. Pretty damn tough, being stuck between those two sides in the "evil" Middle East...
The only place with relatively little evil seems to be where the Penguins live, but there you go...
Would Iran be good for OSS by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-27 04:03 · Score: 0

Considering the fact that they admittedly copy Microsoft Software without regard to licensing, who says they will abide to the GNU license? If they produced derivative programs from GNU licensed software, would they really want to contribute that back to the community. That would allow any intelligence agency to keep an eye on what they are doing with the linux os. Say, building a nuclear weapons testing laboratory, or command and control center for their non-existence nuclear weapons?

Countries like Iran and Iraq when controlled by leaders that practice ultimate control over are a threat to freedom. Ironic to think that a community so protective of freedom would not rebel to a government of a country like Iran using their code. I am not saying that Iranians are bad people, just the government in Iran is bad.
it won't matter after November.... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-27 04:18 · Score: 0

cause W will raise the temp over Tehran to 300,000 celsius...