Molyneux Apology Explained

Thanks to the BBC for a follow-up to an earlier story. Following Peter Molyneux's apology to the Fable community last week, the BBC spoke with the game designer about his decision. "[I] owed a duty to fans to explain why some features did not make it into the finished product."

Comments

I still think it's cool that he apologized

[selsine]

I still think it's cool that he apologized, and for whatever reason I have a lot of respect for him as a game designer. At least he tried to do something different...

Re:I still think it's cool that he apologized

[tc]

How different was it really? It's a very much "on rails" RPG (in terms of where you are allowed to walk within the maps), that has obnoxious loading times, tiny maps, and is generally too short. The quest structure, with the retries and 'boasts' also serves to always remind you that you're playing a game, not immersed in a world.

The only innovation was the level of customization and character development. But even that wasn't a revolutionary new idea, it was just dialing up an existing concept.

Granted, the production values were high, and the overall level of polish was good. It's a competent enough RPG, but let's not pretend that it was anything really special.

Frankly, there are several better RPGs out there, both on Xbox and other platforms. Judging by Gamerankings, others agree with me (Fable is currently around 86%, whereas other RPGs have scored far higher).

Re:I still think it's cool that he apologized

[Babbster]

"Tried" to do something different doesn't help the game consumer at all, nor should it be a good point on the resume of a guy who's become a legendary game developer (Populous? Dungeon Keeper? Awwww, yeah). I've liked what I've played of Fable so far, but the reality is that it isn't anything that fresh or that new. In fact, there are aspects of it (the linearity, the restricted movement within zones and the small size of the zones) which are actually steps BACKWARD for the genre.

If we're giving credit for an RPG trying to do something big, Morrowind still has to come out on top in that area. It had a very open map where you could go anywhere in the game that you could see, it was dense with subplots and nonlinear gameplay (you could go a hundred hours of play and barely touch the main storyline) and it was free of traditional load screens (yes, there were pauses but I found them quite tolerable compared to the usual RPG load times). Morrowind's main flaw was it's combat system which was, at various times, either cumbersome and annoying or just boring.

What I hoped for from Fable was a marriage of Morrowind's open-ended nature with more dynamic AI and more interesting interaction with NPCs. What I got instead was, in essence, a pretty standard RPG with time passage - annoyingly fast time passage, by the way, where you can age years just completing one mission if you stop to play with the environment even a little bit.

Re:I still think it's cool that he apologized

[Pxtl]

Honestly, I think Molyneux games are overrated. He starts out with good concepts, but then ruins it with creepingfeaturitis that's not even relevant to the gameplay (Black and White was terrible for this). Compare StarTopia, an obviously Molyneux-inspired game. Tons of variety, excellent gameplay, a wide variety of buildings. Comes out being a far better-feeling strategy than Molyneux games, even though it has the same premises (all your people are totally autonomous, and you are just an administrator).

Take the old "growing trees" example: that's a big PITA to implement, and yet he wanted this to be a major feature. And its nothing - its a minor, unimportant feature of the background.

Re:I still think it's cool that he apologized

[fatmonkeyboy]

What I got instead was, in essence, a pretty standard RPG with time passage - annoyingly fast time passage, by the way, where you can age years just completing one mission if you stop to play with the environment even a little bit.

Well, maybe he was just trying to be realistic.

It took me four years to complete the "Acquire Computer Science Degree" quest and I hadn't even stopped to play with the environment all that much!

I mean, I was 18 and fresh out of highschool and POOF! I was 22, trying to remember the names of the people I went to highschool with ;)

Some of my friends who stopped to play with "the environment" still haven't finished yet.

And, some who did, actually hit a bug in the system. They completed the "Acquire Computer Science Degree" quest, but no new quest paths opened up!

Re:I still think it's cool that he apologized

[cephyn]

good luck on getting your money back for that one. Real Life(tm) comes as-is. And the EULA is brutal.

Re:I still think it's cool that he apologized

[Ceyan]

There isn't even any real "time-passage" effect. Your character ages based on you buying skills. And that age affects nothing but your physical appearance. There is not storyline difference depending on your age, none of the other characters in the game age, cities don't change, landscape doesn't change, so it's really just a pointless feature.

Re:I still think it's cool that he apologized

[cabjf]

Good luck getting an apology for that one.

Re:I still think it's cool that he apologized

[Pendersempai]

Actually the only way to age is to level up a skill. Well, there's one mission that will age you anywhere from 0-2 years, but that's it.

Re:I still think it's cool that he apologized

[drinkypoo]

Hell yeah Startopia felt Molyneux-inspired... It was a long while before they had a patch that would make the game not crash. It was a lot of fun but had a tendency to get chunky. Building gigantic armies of "anyone who gets on the station" was loads of fun.

The biggest news

[cephyn]

...in that article is that "B&W2 is completely playable and looking great."

Well, B&W was supposedly completely playable too. Maybe we have different definitions. B&W DID look great though. ;)

Platform apology

[Qrlx]

If there's anything to apologize for, it's that this game is only on XBox.

It's great for Microsoft, since Fable and Halo are pretty much the only reasons for a gamer to own an XBox. I don't understand what exactly Mr. Molyneux gets out of the deal, but I bet it starts with a $.

Re:Platform apology

[XsynackX]

He had to apologize because of all the thing he said about the game that weren't true.

I followed this game for about three years, all along the way excited after Mr. Molyneux would say things like "If you drop an acorn in the beginning of the game, by the end it will grow to a great oak tree." and tons of other over-hyped things like that. I was nearly the number one Fable fan out there on Big Blue Box's (the developer's) message board, but after getting the game, playng it for 8 hours, beating it, starting a new character, playing it 4 more hours, and finding it has little to no replay value, I feel downright screwed. And the first person I thought of to be pissed at about the game sucking was Molyneux. So that is why he had to apologize, and he should apologize a few more times too.

Re:Platform apology

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget ninja gaiden. That being exclusive is what made me buy an XBox.

Re:Platform apology

[aafiske]

Well, and I'm not trying to be mean here, you do realize that claiming to be the number one fan before the game has even been released doesn't raise your credibility, right?

I mean, do you blame the advertisers when you go out and buy a new ford mustang because they look so cool, then find out it drives like suck? There is a certain amount of responsibility expected on the part of the buyer here.

Re:Platform apology

[paulcammish]

Er... he's in the UK remember, so it probably starts with a '£'...

Don't you damn colonials go stealing all our game developers!

Re:Platform apology

[Anonymous Coward]

And for future references the Euro.

Hmmm.... Slashdot won't display the Euro symbol for me. >: (

Re:Platform apology

[snuf23]

My interest in Fable went straight to nil when I heard that there would be no PC version. I think in a sense Molyneux probably also wasn't thinking in console mode when dreaming up Fable. A lot of the features that were supposed to be included wouldn't have been a problem for a PC release where you are much less limited in terms of hard drive, processor, ram etc.

Re:Platform apology

[Babbster]

I know that PC gamers (of which I'm one) tend to think as you do, but the idea that a major game release can have tons of extra features on the PC because of being "less limited" in terms of specifications is something of a fallacy. In fact, PC game releases tend to be just as gameplay feature-limited as console games and just make more eye candy available to the people with the hotter systems.

For example, Sims 2 is probably going to go on to be yet another best seller for EA. Whilst requiring a T&L graphics card in order to play on lower order systems (such graphics cards being available for far less than $100), when that requirement is met the game is gameplay feature complete with a processor down to 800 MHz (for comparison, the Xbox CPU clocks in at 733 MHz). Even Doom 3, the current champ in terms of hardware demands, cites a minimum of 1.5 GHz which was top speed years ago (as evidenced by the fact that I'm currently on an AMD 1500 and I stay way behind the curve) and will be far lower than the CPU speed of the slowest of the next set of consoles. In short, PC games have to target systems far below the state of the art in order to make the big bucks.

I would also note that there are negatives to Fable (see my post above for a brief list) which were easily addressable in its console incarnation - Morrowind, for example, gives the illusion of a gigantic, nearly seamless world with complete freedom of movement. Even GBA Pokemon games have trees that are planted and grow over time!

I think the problem is less that Molyneaux and company COULDN'T do all the things they wanted to do with Fable, but rather that as development dragged on they reached a point where they were running out of time to implement all the features, probably because they got too preoccupied with prettifying the features they already had.

It's not about the limitations of the Xbox but the limitations of their development team.

Re:Platform apology

[drinkypoo]

There was a time when anything Molyneux was involved with was good and met at least most of its expectations. Of course, when that time ended is a matter of debate, personally I feel it was about the same time as the end of the Amiga Forever era...

Re:Platform apology

[Osty]

It's great for Microsoft, since Fable and Halo are pretty much the only reasons for a gamer to own an XBox.

That's a little short-sighted. As another poster pointed out, Ninja Gaiden (and indeed, all of Team Ninja's recent and known-future work) is exclusive to XBox. If you're into racing, it's hard to beat Project: Gotham Racing 2 (no, it's not a psuedo-simulation like the Gran Turismo series, but it has the best XBox Live! online play I've seen to date, and the physics engine backing the cars seems much more powerful than Gran Turismo's) or the Rallisport Challenge series. If you're looking for a GT killer, Forza Motorsports is shaping up nicely. Cross-platform games are better on the XBox (Prince of Persia, Splinter Cell, and now that EA has finally pulled their heads out of their asses and embraced Live!, the EA titles).

I guess the real question here is, what games do you like? The Xbox is currently weak in RPG games, with only KOTOR and, to a lesser extent, Fable representing the genre with any sense of style. That's set to change (Jade Empire, KOTOR 2, The Bard's Tale, Lord of the Rings, Third Age, etc) in the near future. If you like FPS, it's hard to do better than PC, so long as you don't mind the constant hardware upgrade treadmill. However, for action/adventure games (PoP and NG of course, but also lesser-known titles like Sphynx and the Cursed Mummy, Metal Arms, Otogi, Beyond Good & Evil, etc) it's hard to beat XBox. As I mentioned before, the XBox also shines with racing games, though noone has successfully produced a "GT3-killer" yet (Sega GT 2002 tried, and was a fun game in and of itself, but it fell short of the Gran Turismo mark). Forza Motorsports looks to be a serious contender for the racing simulation crown, however, especially since Gran Turismo 4 doesn't look like it will expand much on Gran Turismo 3. Sports games are also better on XBox, especially Sega's ESPN lineup (and at $20 per game for the 2005 season, it's pretty damned hard to beat -- better graphics than the EA games, comparable gameplay, much better online implementation, and $20+ cheaper than EA's offerings). RTS games don't translate well to consoles, but Full Spectrum Warrior could be considered in the RTS genre and is quite enjoyable (yes, it's now out on the PC).

So, what do you like?

(disclaimer: All of the links are from Gamespot, but I have no affiliation with them. I'm not even a Gamespot Complete member. I simply didn't feel like trolling around for links from various different web sites. I don't necessarily agree with all of Gamespot's reviews, either. Also, I realize that many of the games I mentioned are available on multiple platforms. My intent is not to show the number of exclusive titles for XBox, but to show that these multi-platform games are best on XBox.)

Re:Platform apology

[Rallion]

There's no need to buy an X-Box to play a lot of those games. That's the problem being referred to -- a lack of good exclusive titles. Apart from NG, I think the actualy exclusives you mentioned were the worst of the bunch. KOTOR, PoP, Beyond Good and Evil -- I can click three times and be playing any of them right here.

Re:Platform apology

[Qrlx]

I find Pikmin has a stronger pull in the GameCube direction than any of the titles you mentioned for the XBox.

But, I'm not into sports games at all. And that seems to be the XBox's big selling point. That's fine, it's just not for me.

Re:Platform apology

[Anonymous Coward]

You can use it by posting the HTML code for it and posting with HTML formatting.

See: €

So, just write it as

€

and you'll get it.

Respect

[Lord_Dweomer]

Peter apologizing to his fans and to people who had been waiting with baited breath to play Fable has done nothing but give me more respect for the man.

It is very understandable how the features didn't make it into the game, and in an industry where its standard practice to hype non-existent features and then give no explanation why they're missing, this makes him stand out as an individual who actually cares about the people who play his game unlike some...*cough*Carmack*cough*.

Re:Respect

[Breakfast Pants]

Carmack didn't make a bunch of promises about Doom3 he didn't keep. He didn't need to apologize.

Re:Respect

[Lord_Dweomer]

I never claimed he did. I was saying that Peter has shown he cares about his fans whereas Carmack just enjoys being worshipped and treats people like dirt.

Re:Respect

[stormrage]

Oh yes!
he never respects people and treats people like dirt! Carmack doesnt respect his fans! fantastic!

1) He doesnt enjoy being worshipped.
(People worship him because he raises the bar of technology of today's games)

2) Did you ever try writing mails to any of the game developers?
Carmack respects each and every single individual. He replies to each and every mail even if it is something like (what is BSP)

3) He never makes any promises. I dont remember him making any promises. Its the people that expect a lot from his games.

so please try to know the facts before you comment. You dont know jack about game development and you start commenting on the industry leaders.
get your facts soon kiddo!

Re:Respect

[Jagasian]

You left out the fact that he has release the source code for his games: Wolfenstein 3D, Doom, Quake, and Quake 2. For programmers, this is a really nice thing! For gamers, it is also a really nice thing because what was once a DOS only game, such as Doom, has ports to modern platforms like Windows XP, Linux, and even the Xbox! How many game developers give away their source code? Most game developers talk nice, but Carmack plays nice.

Dear Mr. Molyneux:

[Giant Ape Skeleton]

Apology accepted....

Now can I have my $50 back?

Missing features aren't the biggest problems

[CodeWanker]

Even when the features are there, they are still crippled by hype. Black and White was billed as a deeply philosophical exploration of choosing good and evil. And in the end, the high point of the game revolves around slapping around your ape... Spanking your monkey? Yeah.

Re:Missing features aren't the biggest problems

[scot4875]

slapping around your ape

Not only that, but teaching it where to crap. Oh, joy.

I can only imagine the meeting where that feature made it in... It must have sounded really funny for the first 10 seconds, and then they didn't consider it anymore -- otherwise, they'd have realized that it was just stupid and left it out.

Add to that the fact that your creature is unavailable/useless for a significant part of the game...

I have more respect for Romero ... At least his grandiose ideas suck because they're hard to implement, rather than Molyneux's completely incompetent implementations of do-able ideas.

--Jeremy

Re:Missing features aren't the biggest problems

[snuf23]

I believe the explanation for Black and White's suckage was that they were working on the creature control aspect for so long that they forgot they needed an actual game. So when deadline time reared its ugly head they just threw in some Populous 3 style gameplay. The twist being that now you had to take care of your villagers while your ape throws poop at them.
The creature was kind of neat but utterly out of place with the rather conventional game play. I mean he was mostly a detriment not a help. Hell, most of the time my ape would just be pissed because I was trying to help the stupid villagers fornicate. Damn those villagers were stupid.

Re:Missing features aren't the biggest problems

[drinkypoo]

Hell, most of the time my ape would just be pissed because I was trying to help the stupid villagers fornicate. Damn those villagers were stupid.

You've got it all wrong. Can you imagine those conversations when you put the people together?

Man: Woo-hoo! You have to have sex with me because God said so!
Woman: You'll try anything, won't you?

His hyping shameless

[kylebisme]

Like his example of growing trees which he admitted was dropped because took 15% of the processor time. Sure Peter wanted to make trees grow for us; but he obviously had no clue how to implement to feature with any reasonable level of efficiency. The man is clearly an 'idea guy' with a very week grasp on reality.

Re:His hyping shameless

[fwitness]

Yes, even though the man almost singly created an entire game *genre* (the god game), he has a weak grasp on reality.

Seriously. Yeah, he probably doesn't sit down and code too often, and probably is more of a concepter than a coder. However, thinking you can make trees grow on a 700Mhz PC with customized graphic hardware isn't exactly out of touch with reality. *I* still think it can be done, and easily, it just doesn't fit within the scope of the game they created.

Re:His hyping shameless

[Goosey]

Of course not, he is a game designer not a programmer.

He shouldn't apologize for what was left out...

[Alzheimers]

...he should apologize for what was left in. I mean, the controls were dreadful. Autotargeting friendlies -- wtf? And running felt more like skating in NHL2004. Not to mention the horrible graphical bugs -- polygons popping, shadows flaking, and the eyecandy constantly gets in the way of the camera.

Loading times, severe!
Maps, miniscule!
Missions, Bland!
Role Playing, Diablo II did better!

It's only saving grace were some halfway funny moments. Still not worth the $50 I spent on it.

Re:He shouldn't apologize for what was left out...

[Shiptar]

Right on, I didn't follow any specifics, so don't have a clue what was taken out. However, it was a wasted $50, as it was a crap action adventure with no storyline and lame character development. It's a bit of a stretch to call it an RPG. Now the first Wizardy, THAT's an RPG

He still has fans?

[sholden]

Ever the optimists, I guess.