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Would You Pay for Steam?
dasmurf asks: "Many users have discussed this possibility. Now that Steam has pioneered the biggest online game delivery system to date, is it as simple as that? Read my concerns about the Steam Subscriber Agreement. Has anyone else read this agreement? Should Valve change it? If you love Valve's games but you've never religiously kept an eye on your credit card statement, maybe this will give you more reason. ;)"
Valve's Steam just released 3 software packages you can buy. It's great to be able to play CS:S while Valve and Vivendi duke out their legal battles. However, I have some concerns about their Subscriber Agreement - in particular, section 4.
Most people dismiss agreements like this. EULA's are probably discarded on a per-minute basis around the world, but this SA is slightly different. First, the games being offered are
not for "purchase" but rather available for "access" via a "Subscription fee". If this doesn't fuel the fear that Valve will turn Steam into a huge subscription-based monster like Evercrack, I don't know what would (I'll leave the debate whether subscription based games are the future or not for someone else - read: don't discuss that here, thx). Even if Valve doesn't morph into a subscription-based system, the usage of the term certainly keeps this open (as if the terms in 4B doesn't). And second, there appears to be a "forced subscription" model in place - meaning that if you don't say "NO" loudly enough, you probably will have to foot a "bleeding from the wallet" fee.
In it, 4A suggests that the end user agrees to maintain up-to-date credit card information with Valve. Other than a pre-authorized payment subscription type plan, I don't know why else that would be required. Section 4B states that Valve offers a 30-day period for announcing changes to their fees and billing methods and that "non cancellation" of their services automatically means you agree to and authorized payment of the new fee(s) and/or billing method(s).
The concern of 4B is not limited to this Steam Powered SA and is apparent in many subscription and pre-authorized payment plans, albeit probably not in the exact wording. And if you're not careful, you may have ended up in this kind of credit card "trap" before.
By "trap", I mean that the credit card owner ends up paying for new and different services he or she may or may not have wanted in the first place. And that redressment, reimbursement, reversal of charges, or credit of any kind is not possible, as stated in the SA. I hate to be cynical, but you can hear laughter from the Swindler's gallery snicking "We've covered our butts, but we've prevented you from covering yours!"
This reminds me of the opt-in/opt-out warefare in the courts not too terribly long ago. The most recent in my memory is the Telemarketing do-not-call plan.
Here's an example of the Valve SA gone bad:
John Doe "buys" the Gold package and gets the merchandise 2 months later, all the while enjoying CS:S and awaits HL2 and other games when they're out. Then, he stops playing Steam games for some reason or other. Maybe it's going to Iraq for 6 months. Maybe he's KIA and his family's a mess trying to get his body back from some third world country. Maybe it's being laid off an no net connection. Maybe he's got a new baby and he has no time for the computer. Maybe his wife has cancer and he doesn't want to leave her side. Maybe he's in jail for insider trading. Maybe he's found a new game and dropped Steam games like a bad habit. Maybe he's just forgotten his password and given up on the damned thing. Or maybe he's installed a anti-spam software, e-mail filters, firewalls, anti-spyware, and disables services and system functions on this computer so that the accumulative effects prevented the announcement of a change in the fees and/or billing methods from ever being read.
Anyhow, Valve's new fee/billing method is not known for months until the credit card bill is examined. While the saavy credit card holder who bought the Gold Package may immediately know where to cancel, the poor widow of GI John Doe might take weeks to find out who the hell Valve is and put a stop to the incessant monthly billing. SORRY, NO REFUNDS!
The first thing you might laugh at is the assumption that John Doe doesn't read his credit card bill every month. Some people watch it like a hawk, and some people aren't as diilgent. It's a fact of life. But is it just to make such per
This is precisly why I don't want anything to do with Steam or any other similar technology. Anyone who falls for this is a complete sucker. They get you to install software they have almost complete control over... what did you think they'd do next?
Speculation. I'd pay for Steam - because it will deliver me the games I want to play in a timely fashion. I'm not interested in game packaging. Buying CS:CZ was flawless for me, the whole interface and procedure was excellent. If I do have to subscribe, I'm not bothered. I'll work out the pricing and see whether it works out better for me. Otherwise I won't bother. You may remember that Valve has previously talked about two Steam payment methods - subscription (all Valve products within your sub period) or product by product. This would seem to still make sense.
Also, you have to bear in mind that I'm not an idiot and I know how to use my online banking service to check what's going out of my account.
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Right now I dual boot. Why? Steam. Steam is pretty much the only windows-only PC game left that I have a desire to play. Everything else is either so old I can emulate it with dosbox or wine perfectly. Or it is like doom3 with linux support. Mostly I don't play pc games much anymore.
As it stands I wont pay anything for steam. However, if Valve made Steam for linux I would pay. I would pay... 100 bucks for a lifetime. Or 5 bucks a month. As long as it worked and I get every game.
Meanwhile despite my dual booting I haven't actually played Steam in many months. That will probably change soon with HL2 and all.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
First a quick rant, I bought HL2 to get CS:Source now, the only bitch is, I already owned CS:CZ, so It feels like I paid for it twice. And CS:Source doesn't have bots, so CS:CZ is the only offline play around.
They hit every standard aspect, they own everything, you cant do anything but play the game, and you have no rights. Typical EULA.
My understanding is EULA's can't over ride laws, example put yourself into indentured servitude.
So, I think creating 3rd party programs to work with STEAM cant be blocked by the EULA as its outside the scope of the software use.
Maybe we need a consumers rights bill for software. We finally got one for spyware in the US.
Half-Life
Sign up for a subscriber system from a company with a track record of one game? Yeah right. Valve hit the gold mine with Half-Life, but thus far they've proven to be nothing more than a company with producer problems and a sell-out who resorts to buying player-made stuff to support them.
all this steam stuff is just a bunch of hot air
If you don't get it, reread it!
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
CS doesn't have a monopoly on team based, squad combat, the only reason to play is the level of the gamers involved.
That being said Raven Shield is heading for the $19.99 bin and bullshit with extra "content packs" aside it's a brilliant game.
I got a copy of HL2 for free but I won't be using it until I'm damn sure they won't want credit card information.
The sad thing is that people will never have a game they can play nostalgicly, they will never have the option of being without steam. Why would you trust these people? They are trying to move away from Vivendi and ensure that they have a ton of money to start publishing for themselves.
On top of that you are playing MODS these were created by people who theorertically loved the gaming community, now they are thinking of doing it for a living! How many people who contributed to making CS, DOD, Natural Selection and other things that allowed this state of events will never be payed? In fact their hard work was flushed down the drain with the arrival of Steam.
Mod makers I beg you develop for a free platform! There are engines out there you can use for free!
I'd rather write a game engine (open-source) which updates itself as you play. I have 2 mbit DSL, there's no reason Steam should make me wait to download an entire HL level when only 50 feet in front of me is visible. Make it use bytecode (java, perl6, c#), open-source it (all the major client-side attacks you'd get from an open-source game engine have already been done through GL hacks)...
With this system finished and used by major game studios, all games would be developed faster and run on any major platform without any modification. I'd be willing to pay a subscription fee for that. Not Steam -- I have Doom 3, I don't care about CS, so HL2 is all I need -- I'd subscribe for a week, then lose it.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
1.5 IS dead....
Run the latest version to rid yourself of these niggles.
Its called progress.
I have no sig yet I must scream.
Now that Steam has pioneered the biggest online game delivery system to date[...]
Second to BitTorrent, of course.
As it stands now, if Valve converted steam to a pay-for service, I'd drop it. It just isn't worth the hassle. The client is still pretty buggy, which bothers me a bit. I'm not into paying a fee for MMORPGs either. I'd much rather pay for my game once, and then be able to use the game as often as I like. If the game has online multiplayer support for free, I will use it to see if I like it. But if I have to pay a usage fee, well, my monthly entertainment bill is high enough already.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
This was posted AC (score 0) and within a few minutes modded down to -1 (overrated.)
Just what's overrated there? Even if it wasn't a particularly good post, at score 0 it was hardly 'overrated.'
In fact I thought it was a very good post. It's exactly what I'm thinking. When they made it impossible to play CS anymore without selling your soul for Steam, I quit playing it. If I were a rich man who could afford to throw thousands of dollars away on a principle, I would have sued them for it - I paid for a game that they then proceeded to make unplayable unless I signed away my rights on a new deal where they hold all the cards.
Am I and the 'overrated' AC above really the only people that care about such issues? Is everyone else here really happy to go along with whatever lopsided agreement some company wants out of them, as long as they get the pretty flashing lights to entertain them?
I guess anyone that fits that description is indeed a 'sucker' and will get what he deserves.
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
As CS requires you to have a key to install on a client machine, the saving grace is that there is no authentication so you can use any key you can generate or otherwise find on the web to play 1.5
In norway a WON2 network (emulated WON servers) has been set up if you are interested in a minimal amount of authentication where a cheating client can be banned for 5 years from all WON2 servers via key and ip, but this is not very useful in USA and not reliable in most cases of cheating. My 24/7 admins just do manual IP bans and masks if necessary, as we never trusted the original WON servers.
Often wrong but never in doubt.
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Everyone knows me.
I'll try my best. Steam is a content delivery system at heart with other things added on top. It allows you to buy games online and they will be sent to you through the Steam servers (not peer-to-peer as some people think). If it stopped there, I wouldn't have much of a problem with it, but it goes deeper. You have to use Steam to play Half-Life and its mods; there is no way around it. It can take up to a minute to login to Steam in order to play your games. Once in, the steam client has a built in server browser, that takes up even more of your memory. It has around a 25MB footprint just sitting there.
Hope this clears a few things up
I activated Half Life 2 for free with a coupon that came with an ATI All-In-Wonder Radeon 9600 Pro video card. At no time have I entered my CC information into Steam. Therefore, it's impossible for Valve to start automatically charging me for a hypothetical Steam subscription.
Suppose that I had purchased HL2, regardless of what's in the EULA, I find it hard to understand how could they charge me without my authorization. Did you know that a typical credit card charge-back fee paid by merchants is $60.00? If Valve decided to sneak in an automated charge, how many people do you think would issue charge backs. Do you really think Valve could afford this along with the accompanying negative publicity?
i paid for halflife a long time ago (1998). now i want to register it with Steam (just so i can play it online) but they say my cd-key is already used. and in their FAQ they want me to pay $10 "handling" so that they can "reset" my cd-key.o unt_faq
TOTALY EVIL http://www.steampowered.com/index.php?area=cd_acc
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Maybe...but I would be really pissed off. I already paid 30 bucks through Steam in order to play the CS:S beta (or in other words i bought CS:CZ, which is really not worth a dollar if you already own cs). Than I paid 60 bucks for the HL2 silver package to be able to play CS:S source right away. I think Valve is gonna make tons of money off of gullible dumbfucks like me. I knew I was wasting my money when I bought CS:CZ but I just wanted to see what the source engine felt like and I was so sick of the old half life engine. Even though it's sorta my own dumb fault (I even saw it coming), I feel like I was tricked. Now if they decide to add a Subscription fee, I would be incredibly "steamed." I would do every thing I could to pirate an account before I would pay a monthly fee. I know piracy is illegal but I feel no regret taking advantage of companies that take advantage of me. But if I can't find a way to get a free account, I would probably end up paying the fee. I'm just that addicted to CS and half life I guess.
Abaddon: An Xbox 360 Indie game
1) It's always been in the Steam EULA and no story appeared about this when Steam was launched.
2) They won't be able to charge you for something you don't specifically agree to, i.e. a game "subscription" or similar.
3) If you agree to a subscription and paid via credit card straight to Steam, then you've just bought yourself a contract that says they'll take out next month's money next month. My ISP does the same, so do my hosting providers, etc. what's the difference?
4) If they suddenly start changing ALL games on Steam over to subscription, bye-bye 90% of their users, hello some other 3D FPS.
5) (quite a minor point considering 2 and 3)... how would they automatically charge my credit card when there's not one registered on the account? Answer: They can't. Buy the game in-shop, install and you don't ever need to enter anything but a CD-Key.
Don't blow this out of proportion, it's no worse than any other EULA and it's all there in black and white and has been for a long time..
http://google.com/search?q=won2
I suppose, yes, I would pay for steam, if the price was right. Obviously, anybody can set a teapot to boil, but that steam condenses pretty readily. I would rather pay for some high-pressure dry steam that could cut a broom handle in half at two meters. I'd pay big bucks for that, 'cause it would be awesome.
Language students: Don't try to learn English here. This ain't it.
My experience with Steam: Last month, I heard that if you installed Steam you could pre-install HL2, so I installed it. Steam proceeded to download a couple gigs of data files to my computer. Very slick. Last week, when the packages were made available, I purchased the Silver package. I spent the weekend playing Counter-Strike Source and enjoying some of the back catalog of Half-Life mods that I had never tried. It takes about 5 seconds to authenticate before a game starts. That's about the same amount of time that most of the CD-protection schemes take, but since I never have to swap CDs out of my drive (or use disk imagers and virtual drives to get around the schemes) I have no problem with that.
I honestly believe that Valve has taken the first step on a path that will eventually lead the software industry in a new direction. As with most revolutionary ideas, there are those who embrace it, and those who think it will lead to the downfall of society.