Slashdot Mirror
Croquet Project Releases Initial Developer Release
kourge writes "Croquet Project previously has been slashdotted. Today, Croquet Project released its initial developer release, codenamed 'Jasmine.'
Although it isn't a finished product, it still is complete enough for developers to develop in Croquet. Croquet itself is written in Squeak, a branch of the Smalltalk language.
Please remember to download Croquet via BitTorrent, which provides faster speeds and won't overload the server." The idea is ambitious: An OpenGL-based "complete development and delivery platform" delivering "shared telepresence, shared authorship of complex spaces and their contents, and shared access to network-deliverable information resources" is only part of it. Croquet's license is blessedly simple, too.
Sure, it looks really cool. But i cant understand how something like that would allow you to work effeciently..
So many new languages, so little time...
By sharing a 3D space with avatars you can create some interesting things.
For example, someone enters your croquet space and you open up a local chess app which appears before you both and you can have a game of chess. And yet the chess program is not network aware. This is phenomenally cool and has all sorts of applications.
I know it's been done before in things like "moove" but I think it's rad to have your smb share as a "room" which people can enter. The rooms then have unix-like privelages. So there is a root "machine room" the door to which only authenticated users can enter. And you could have terminals that "float" along with you that only you can see.
It is the next paradigm shift for certain multi-user applications. Sending a freind an file over IM is more of a question of leaping through a hyper-portal and throwing an object over to them. Or they might in your croquet space and you wouldn't have to "give" it to them at all, they'd just see it there in front of them.
Endless possibilities.
I've never understood what makes 3D environments better than 2D for applications and input devices made for 2D displays. In my opinion, the new spatial dimension you can move through is what makes it bad since it takes longer time to accomplish tasks.
Is it really more convenient to collaborate like this than just via a web conference or something?
Obviously someone see advantages here, or they wouldn't put so much effort into these projects.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
You can do anything you like.
You can't stop others from doing anything they like.
That's the GPL in a nutshell. I like it.
See what I've been reading.
gives me some hope for the eventual acceptance of the language, though I realize that its like HP's RPN calculators. Most people never 'got it' and they bought calculators with an = sign.
When the facination with code objects is over ("the faster the better" erupts from the Microsoft quarter, "we can't make as much money from new code as we can from old code") the world will begin to realize the importance of object relationships, object states and state machines and its effect on used interfaces.
Data structure is fine but it needs to be married to the articulation (partly in the GAAP sense of the word) of inter object relationships through an intermediary of a state machine and projected onto a 3D GUI like Croquet.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
That's the GPL in a nutshell.
No it's not. You must make the source code available under the GPL, not so with this one. As pointed out, more similar to BSD than GPL.
The kind of easy you can give to children and complete beginners who've never seen a computer before. You can get into it as deeply as you like, it's basically smalltalk.
e.g.
http://www.squeakland.org/
It should really be the default development environment for normal users on Linux desktops.
Deleted
Ah, so this is bringing back the VR worlds of pre dot-com days? About time now that we have hardware that can render photorealism in real-time. But, will it be useful?
DAMN YOU OCTODOG! DAMN YOU TO HELL!
An OpenGL-based "complete development and delivery platform" delivering "shared telepresence, shared authorship of complex spaces and their contents, and shared access to network-deliverable information resources" is only part of it.
Anybody else feel buzzword overload coming on?
"You can stop others from doing anything they want"
Untrue of course. With the BSD license you cannot stop anyone from doing anything with that particular fork. Of course, you can make a NEW FORK and change the license. That is only logical, because you can think of that as "your fork". This doesn't give you the right to stop others for using other forks, or the original one. The idea that I should be FORCED to give up code that is added to a code base that uses GPL code is offensive to me, which is why I reject the GPL. I prefer true freedom. After all, the biggest advantage of OSS (supposedly) is that everyone shares their code to improve the code base. So why would I need to be compelled to do so via a license? Isn't it naturally "better" to share it anyway?
The slavery analogy is completely wrong as well, since in license issues all parties agree to abide by the license terms. Slaves weren't afforded that luxury.
Oh please. The main post was filled with enough marketspeak and buzzwords to choke a Microsoft Marketing Rep. Tell me what it does. Tell me why it is unique or 'cool'. Tell me what problem it solves or why it is an innovation.
DAMN YOU OCTODOG! DAMN YOU TO HELL!
You are really engaged in a battle of definitions here on what "You can stop others from doing anything they want" means. Ultimately, it boils down to your different interpretations who is meant by "you". Grandparent refers to the original developer, you refer to everybody else who might be repackaging things under a proprietary license. Technically, grandparent is right, because the license on a piece of software is issued by the developer. If you are releasing something under the BSD or Croquet license, you can't stop others from doing anything they like.
Grandparent says the BSD license means that you as a developer have very little means of stopping from doing what they want with your software including forking it. This is correct. You (Parent) say that the BSD license means that the recipient of said software can re-release a fork under a proprietary license, effectively stopping others from doing what they want. This is also correct, however you are not talking about the BSD license any more, as you are rereleasing it under a different license now. The BSD license gives you that freedom. It is up to you to determine if you consider that freedom a bad thing.At this point, you are engaged in a debate that is based solely on the fact that you have different definitions of "freedom" and whether freedom should include freedom to restrict freedom. This is a highly academic debate on principles that is not leading anywhere by itself; partly because there is no "solution", partly because it will mislead you to equate all instances of problems to which these definitions of freedom are applicable. The situation is different in the case of slavery vs. the case of software, because slavery and software are different things, and everybody will agree on this, no matter what definition of freedom you are applying.
The BSD license gives you a right that the GPL doesn't give: the right of rerelease under a different license. Nobody will deny that. Whether that's a good thing or not or whether you want to consider the BSD license or the GPL "freer" is up to you, but here, there's no easy way to decide by means of logic alone.
Comparing this with slavery is a very bad case of argument by moral equivalence; it's bad because the moral equivalence isn't really there, unless you equate the freedom to rerelease software with the freedom to keep slaves. Do you consider these to be morally equivalent?
As a state gets corrupt, its laws multiply; the most corrupt states have the most numerous laws. (Tacitus, Annales 3:27)
Why? Let's see:
- The one huge PITA for me is the navigation. The mouse interface is as disturbing as it can get. If I had a joypad connected, the up=forward system would make perfect sense, but this way I automatically tend to navigate as in _any_ 3D-Shooter. I could adapt, granted, but where is the actual gain? Why is navigating this way supposed to be better?
- Most icons are not very intuitive, be that trained or natural intuition. I can figure how to move, rotate, activate, close and focus those windows, but most of the icons in the menu are absolutely beyond me. Some do nothing, some crash something, some spawn world objects that don't have a closing icon, etc. Tooltips _and_ at least a minimum documentation would be neat... And don't you point me at their getting started section. Have you actually read that? It wasn't much, so the average slashdotter should have been able to...
- How do I get a mozilla window? Or, for that matter, any application? Maybe it is my inability to use the menu icons right, but, if screenshots show off with a webbrowser open, then I expect, even in a developer's version, to be able to easily repeat that.
- Runtime environment. Not much to add, I guess. I have a personal dislike for anything that looks like the kindergarten-gaudy version of drag'n'drop your code. Hell, even QBasic looks more professional. It might be the best language/codebase for the purpose, but it sure looks stupid...
- My last point: Sharing userspace over network. I theory this is great. Having the ability to cyberspace parts of my system is way cool for cooperative work, etc. BUT (big but here) only when I can absolutely retain the ability to seal the rest of my system from intruders. Same problem as shared directories: In theory, great. In realita? Security holes amass. If everyone was an enlightened and good person this weren't an issue, but, statistically, everyones a script-kiddie. So, please, give me a)private-by-default and b)clear indication when a network connection exists, including the ability to turn any such conectivity off, ok?
I hope some people will comment! This post is not intended as flamebait, you know...I read some of the FAQ and looked at all the pretty screenshots, and I'm impressed and excited by the possibilities; this is the first 3d-space idea that "works" for me in that it doesn't seem (completely) gratuitous and looks like it would work quite well in a sharing-based environment.
:)
But what I'm looking for is, well, more. For example, they don't tackle (or I didn't understand it) storage or organization of multiple portals (storage meaning "where do you find it in the space", not where is it on a disk). And then, if I have multiple portals for different things, how can I arrange them and subsequently, find them quickly in the space. All those floating windows gotta live somewhere.
The point of this that shouldn't be missed is that this is a tool for communication and information exchange.
Many things are accomplished with greater ease in the flattened down two dimensions of most applications, but talking to someone or trying to express an idea is sometimes cumbersome what all you have is text and flat images at your disposal. THAT is why multimedia is such a big deal.
I think this sort of technology could really take off in terms of person to person idea exchange.
If you set aside the computational usefulness of computers for a moment (not a small aspect I know), then the major purpose of our IT is communication and information exchange.
I think the idea is an old one whose realization should be encouraged and welcomed.
Many comments so far seem to grouse about the limitations of the 3-D interface vice the 2-D interface. Instead think about such an OS with head mounted display and gesture recognition technology. Now you're talking about an immersive computer experience and croquet would seem to be a good step in that direction.
"Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.
After going through the screenshots and faq, wow this is revolutionary. It really re-thinks the way we interact, not only with the pc, but with other over the internet. It really utilizes all the broadband and graphics capability our pc and internet offers today, instead of the same old 2d windows and mouse interface which was conceived before any of these are available.
Croquet spaces to me is like the convergence of MMORPGs and the WWW. A 3d OS which by its very nature becomes a browser to the interweb.
Now imagine a Doom engine version of this! Where you walk into one room to talk to your boss and clients at work, to another to interact with profs and peers at some part time class, and another to do some fragging. All in one continuous virtual reality.
I'm applauded by some bad comments here. I don't think many understands the revotionary practicality this may bring as an extension to our world offline. This is the Matrix, without the realism made possible by plugs into your head.
VIVA1023.com | Political Fashion.