Slashdot Mirror
Transmeta Mini-ITX Board Reviewed
NobodyButMe writes "Transmetazone.com has posted a link to a 'world-exclusive' IBASE MB860 review on EpiaCenter.com. This appears to be the first review of a Mini-ITX board built around Transmeta's efficeon technology. Transmeta has also approved this board to be the official reference platform for the TM8600 processor and if you take a look at the benchmark results in the review (page 4) then you'll understand why as VIA's EPIA-M10K board looks quite pale in comparison. The review also adresses issues such as power consumption, temperatures and thermal throttling - three very interesting points when looking at the Efficeon processors. If the MB860 weren't so expensive (~500$ or something as it's aimed at the 'industrial market') then this could easily beat the EPIA boards (IMHO)."
When will these companies understand that price matters. Spend less on marketing and more on making the product affordable. Unless, of course they aren't targeting the consumer market...
Mini-box make some neato little ITX boxes which you could hook up to any number of storage solutions. Past that, I've had good success with Mini-ITX boards. I get the cases from Web-tronics, as the MITX ones are very, very expensive -- they're meant to make your MITX look like a CD player, pretty much, and I can do more without having to worry about cosmetics. MiniBox (above) sells snap-in MITX power supplies ranging from 60w to 200w. For the extra cool factor, use a Xenarc display or use something 'headless', e.g., LCDProc and Crystalfontz. (As I remember, the MiniBoxes come with their own little displays.)
--
Using GNU/Linux - Windows-free zone!
Yikes! The entire website is unresponsive... ALREADY!
The world-exclusive review is slashdotted before there are even any comments...
/lame joke
They wouldn't be running it on one of these...
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
Well, the embedded systems world could certainly make use of a product like this. That $500 won't last: as soon as they get their development costs back from the big boys that can afford the initial high price, they'll go after Via. At least, that's my prediction.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
...will it run Linux?
h ere-dept" bit either)
(and don't give me that "of-course-it-will-you-idiot-linus-used-to-work-t
FLR
Transmeta's mini-ITX board might beat a VIA board in speed, but VIA still has price going for them. And speed isn't that important to VIA's strategy, since their CPUs are meant to be fast enough for most jobs, but not the fastest CPUs available. They concentrate on power consumption. If Transmeta can lower the board price to $175, they would really have something good.
Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
I always liked Transmeta. But multiple looks at their processors always seemed to show that while they were outclassing the Eden chips from Via in terms of performance, the power/heat to perf ratio always seemed to be targeting a market that I wasn't sure existed.
ARM has the bottom end (watches) and in the x86 space Via controls the low and AMD and Intel battle it out for middle and high (laptops and desktops). Transmeta processoes only seem to win in the palmtop arena, and even then Via is a strong contender.
Anyone here considering using Transmeta in a hobby or production box? And why them and not someone else?
I can't get to the article, so for those that have read it...
Do those M10K-paling numbers include AES-crypto? How about MPEG-2/4 encoding/decoding? The VIA boards have dedicated hardware for this stuff that offloads from the CPU and really ramps up nicely.
Or are they comparing such useful measures as SPECmarks, GFlops, and other meaningless drivel?
-Charles
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
Is Transmeta the new AMD in terms of innovation and catering the real consumer needs?
I wonder if/when Transmeta's price has come down to $100-$200 mark, will it start to attract more users?
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
Better to pay twice as much to get something that works right in the first place than to go through the above (where you'll be buying a second board to use during the RMA anyway). Even if you had to run GNU/Linux on it, you'd still be ahead of the game for office applications.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
thanks
Ok...that site went down solidly. They must have been doing something seriously wrong.
Anyone have a link or some text?
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
Does someone know where to buy Via EPIA boards for cheap? I've read that they are available in volume for $45 for the new M10000, but I can't find any $160 retail.
What gives?
Here is the MB860. Since they're using the Transmeta chip, power consumption must be a big deal. Here's the spec. for that:
See what I've been reading.
Maybe im wrong but don't industrial type market businesses usually purchase big powerful industrial type computers to process their work?
What exactly are industrial businesses doing with these boards?
I can only see this item being sold on the consumer market.
I grabbed the last page before it got slashdotted if anyone wants a basic summary of what the review said:
The MB860 initially attracted me because it was the first Mini-ITX board to be based around the Transmeta Efficeon technology. Given that Transmeta's track record with performance isn't the best I was very much looking forward to testing the MB860. Now that I have worked with it for several weeks I can say the following: "I like it, but..."
One of the strong selling points is certainly that this board is fanless while offering good performance at very low-power consumption levels. It is quite impressive to see that the difference in total power consumption between idle (at ~18w) and full load (~30w) is very low. It's even more impressive if you realize that the CPU itself is only using a maximum of ~2w when playing a DVD. At the same time the temperature remains at an acceptable level while you are always sure that the system won't be damaged thanks to the thermal throttling. I think that the MB860 could be a great choice for CarPCs as these systems are especially sensitive as far as power consumption and heat are concerned.
Attention to details such as the 44-pin IDE header and the included 44-pin cable are nice touches. There are however also a couple of annoyances such as the non-standard power-LED pins and the location of the ATX connector. While the second point varies depending on what case and power supply is used I'd personally prefer to use existing components such as the handy plug-in PSUs from iTuner. The I/O area of the board could also use 2 (4 would be even better) additional USB2.0 ports. Additionally I'd love to see an S-Video connector as many people prefer this option. For the future a DVI instead of the slowly aging VGA connector would also be appreciated. Especially since the ATI M7 core seems to be quite capable of producing high quality output signals.
Software wise I can only complain about the M7 driver issue I'm having but as I said above that might be due to the fact that my sample is one of the first pre-production boards. In case I can come up with a solution I will update this article accordingly. As I didn't experience a single crash during my endless hours of testing and working on this system I'm lead to believe that the other drivers for the MB860 are very stable.
One more thing which I'd like to see is a detailed documentation of the Observer tool and a better user-interface plus more option for this handy application.
Here's a point which I haven't mentioned so far. Price. According to Transmeta the board is said to retail at around $450 but from I'm hearing from IBASE the retail price is likely to be higher. IBASE has made it clear that the MB860 is mainly aimed at the industry/industrial markets and this price-tag will certainly keep most regular consumers from considering this board. This is quite a pity in my opinion since the MB860 offers many features that consumers would also appreciate.
In the end of each review the question always is: Is this product worth its money and should you consider spending your hard-earned cash on this product?
For the regular reader here this will basically turn into the question whether a VIA EPIA board or the IBASE MB860 is the better choice for their system. Both boards have their strengths and weaknesses but I believe that there the EPIA boards offer two important advantages. Price being one of them as you can basically build a complete system for the price of the MB860. On the other hand the EPIAs have the advantage of being on the market for some time. Therefore you'll find more products (both hardware and software) and general support for this platform. This is certainly another point to consider.
For the industrial market the MB860 certainly offers some compelling reasons to be purchased instead of an EPIA board. First of all industrial products normally have a higher reliability than consumer products. Given my own experience and hearing from other people I'd also suggest that the
MirrorDot has mirrors of everything, including all the pictures.
~Jay
I wan a Nano-ITX board myself... not quite out yet.
3 -b.jpg
http://www.beareyes.com.cn/2/lib/200303/18/073/vi
No, just kidding. Here's the real Nano-ITX:
http://www.mini-itx.com/store/subscribe.asp?s=8
Yes, I am a smart ass; it's better than the alternative.
Mirrors, including all the pictures, are at MirrorDot. Enjoy.
~Jay
Is it just me, or does Transmeta seem to be completely dropping the ball when it comes to catering their product to their own key demographic?
It's essentially built like a normal computer motherboard, but who in their right mind is using a low power embedded solution like this for a desktop? Really, people are using Transmeta's projects for places where low power consumption and small size are key. Like home theatre PCs, car PCs, and so forth.
Transmeta needs to get smart and produce products directly targeted at these embedded solutions; not vague products which could possibly be contributed towards them. If you want to build a home theatre PC, you need to hunt around for the motherboard, CPU, etc. from a normal computer, plus the chore of getting together a remote control system, small quiet power supply, suitable case that doesn't look like a budget computer from 1996, a fancy home audio sound card, etc.. If you want a car PC, you're going to be hunting for some very specialized input devices, screens, power supplies, etc. Why isn't anybody producing proper kits for these uses?
"had to"???????? why would you run anything else???? linux is the penultimate opereting system!!
their main page is ok but the link to this story is slashdotted :)
such as http://www.viewtouch.com/printers.html
slashdot effect in action.... anyone know the mirror for mirrordot.com?
http://shit.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/10/25/2 229220
Here's an interesting article on Van's Hardware about the Efficeon's thermal throttling properties. Apparently it's even slower than you think.
1 7_efficeonFreeze/040517_efficeonFreeze.htm
http://www.vanshardware.com/articles/2004/05/0405
stats and here and here
:)
Looks like they want "62,800"yen or about $550 for it... think I'll hold off for a bit.
Interactive Visual Medical Dictionary
I had an A1200 back in the early 90's. Nice machine, slow CPU but the dedicated co-processors made up for it, and then some. Until Doom came out, I wouldn't even look at PC games (and even then I only got one to play Doom, and later on Quake... 2D games were still better on the Amiga or console systems like Neo-Geo).
"According to Transmeta CmdrTaco is a flaming butt spelunker ..."
Mod parent down.
but imagine a beowulf cluster of these things!
Well, I'll have to go coward to say this, but it's true...
Dude, I don't understand a stinkin' word of the above.
I mean... it's weird. I get paid pretty well to be a geek, but apparently I work in a completely different form of geek than you. That's English, right?
Wowza.
That article (and, as far as I can tell, Van's Hardware) seems to have a bone to pick with Transmeta, which is IMO unfair.
The Sharp MM-20 is an incredibly thin machine, down to the point where one has to wonder where the heck they put the circuit board. This probably means it has no other heat management solution than the underside metal, and that the whole solution is limited by thermal dissipation.'
In that case, you have two options for design: you can either use a slower CPU which you can run at 100% at all times, or you can pick a faster one which can run at up to 100% until the thermals catch up, and then throttle it down. Since most desktop users' utilization tend to be bursty, the latter will give the typical user more oomph.
Now, this is a design decision made by Sharp, but the article makes it sound like it's inherent to Transmeta's CPUs. It's not -- ALL current CPUs will behave this way if put in a thermally constrained situation. Is it worth it to get a super-duper-thin machine? Sharp seems to think so, but that's their decision, not Transmeta's.
It was pretty obvious to me.. guess I hang around /. too much. Sigh.
ERROR 144 - REBOOT ?
Transmeta has a motherboard the size of a business card called Stratosphere.
Check it out here
They also have a desktop supercomputer, although I'll stick to my 800mhz fujitsu for now.
Maybe the cost of optimizing for a lower power bill through lower power computers is more expensive and time-consuming than continuing to use their extant computers and paying the power bill they have now.
Digital Citizen
Industrial market is already well served by ARM (Xscale et al.), PPC, Pentium M, Geode, VIA, and many others. All are well supported, fast, and low power.
We looked at transmeta as a platform in-house for a product, but there don't seem to be enough (any?) advantages to the product to justify the additional cost or technical risk over a more traditional and proven processor line.
I'm not sure what transmeta's strategy is go-forward, but they need to come up with something. Seen many transmeta powered PDAs out there? Cell phones?
..don't panic
error in sql-statement: mysql_connect, err-no: 2002
description: Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/var/lib/mysql/mysql.sock' (111)
realkiwi
That is a very interesting report. If true, and it looks to be, then it makes the Transmeta CPUs something to avoid, particularly if you're into fanless computing.
I work part-time for an embedded hardware manufacturer, and I've had a really bad experience about Xenarc displays. We got two pieces of some ~6" displays for a project, one of them didn't light up at all and the other one was somewhat funny looking. Being hardware guys we disassembled them of course.
The result: both of the displays had bent pins on chips and mauled PCB's. It seemed like someone had been intent on destroying the display internals with a screwdriver. In addition to that the working display showed an interesting fading pattern of something like Bubble-Bobble characters (the pattern appeared when TTL level control signal was cut off but backlight remained on). I googled a bit with the LCD panel partnumber and the only result I could find was some asian company selling really cheap panels recycled from some kind of gaming machines. Xenarc quality indeed.
Its not fair to compare the Transmeta with the VIA M10000 boards (as an example). I'd hope the Transmeta uses better electronic components than VIA does. Our company has a number of M10000 boards. All of them have roasted capacitors in them (5 or 6 caps per). GSC caps. Cheap junk. This isn't a troll, its a (rather sad) fact.
Karma: Neutered
It's his crucial head...
They ran tests under a variety of thermal shutdown conditions. They even ran Van's test program. They never got the weird on/off/on/off routine he saw. Instead the system hit a maximum perormance and stabilized at 70C/158F. The only possible way I can think of they could have tested the board harder would be to hit it with a blow dryer or heat gun to bounce the ambient temperatures higher than the 24C/75F the testers had.
Since that has the possibility of "testing to destruction" it's not a nice thing to do with a loaner. As the board is one of the pre-production releases, it would also be meaningless if it did die.
Did Van see a throttling loop? More than likely but given the fact that *this* review is with pre-production hardware and Van's comments have been out for some time, exactly what generation of equipment did *he* touch? He's not known to lie but he does go off on crusades. I stopped reading his site several years ago because it felt more and more biased. Predictably and unabashedly when it happened but there it was and I was simply too lazy to filter it out.
I've been on slashdot so long I'm starting to get out of touch with the cool stuff if it ain't on slashdot.
I guess I should have given more details.
The case I used had a power supply that would accept a 12VDC input, so I connected the power directly to the ignition switch on the truck.
The power supply and motherboard were subjected to all the spikes and noise from the trucks power system being cycled off and on, starting and what not. Believe me, it was harsh duty.
burnin