Slashdot Mirror
Anti-Spyware Vendor Partners with Spyware Company?
Tuxedo Jack writes "eWeek reports that the anti-spyware vendor Aluria Software has partnered with WhenU of 'WhenUSave' and 'SaveNow' infamy. They've removed WhenU from their spyware/malware definition lists, certified their applications as safe, and they deny that money was involved. As a result, SpywareInfo and many other anti-spyware sites are delisting Aluria's 'Spyware Eliminator' from their lists of preferred software. Is this a dangerous trend for anti-spyware? Or are we just witnessing a natural evolution? I sure hope it's neither - I like my Windows boxes junkware-free, thanks (oxymoron noted)."
This is a dangerous trend. Given the majority of these ad/spyware companies don't care what their products do to the "users" computer, they can leave security holes unnoticed and allow exploits without the user even knowing there is a flaw in their computer. Windows updates can only do so much, and with companies releasing software that intends to help the user, but instead can hurt them. All the while the user is unaware. This makes me sick. Let's support the companies that work off of donations and have open source programs. This is the only way to prevent this from spreading to all of the favorite anit-ad/spyware programs.
-- johntracy.com, because everybody else is wrong.
reminds me of the age old question of whether anti virus companies created virii just to keep their own operations alive.
Symantec's upcoming "Sobig aint so bad" campaign promises to really ruffle feathers. I smell a payoff.
How is different from virus vendors stopping reporting on "corporate" keyloggers?
Gee, thanks for pointing that out, for a second there I thought Slashdot was promoting a Micro$oft product (you see, I substituted a dollar sign the "S", I'm FUNNY!)
One problem that these anti-spyware programs are bound to run into is claims that a "spyware" program is a "legitimate business to consumer marketing connection enabler" by its makers. Afterall, in most cases the user has "agreed" to allow these programs to run by installing something without fully reading the terms of service.
That may be the reason why this group caved... not that money changed hands, but the threat of a lawsuit was waived around.
We had that kind of BS with "Antivirus companies making their viruses so they'll keep on selling" kind of crap. An anti-spyware is the same as an antivirus, except it gets annoying stuff instead of dangerous stuff.
printf($randomline(sigs.txt) \n "-- "$randomline(authors.txt));
-- myself
This happened with lavasoft too, right? They started some consortium on spyware and then left it when it was evident that evil practices were going on... Perhaps there needs to be a legal definition of spyware before vendors will keep constant as to their aims? The problem is with defining it is that the somewhat arbitrary nature that's necessary will backfire and be abused *cough cough DMCA cough cough*.
AccountKiller
Solution: stick to vendors that can be trusted. Use Spybot and Ad-Aware.
(and for those that don't RTFA) .... they are the backend behind AOL's anti-spyware application which is means potentially millions of users are affected by this.
... update their lists and consider Aluria's software as spyware.
You are more than the sum of what you consume. Desire is not an occupation.
Wasn't it not long ago we had this story about Yahoo Anti-Spy Favors Yahoo's Adware Partners?
I think in long run, anti-badthings services are going to be influenced by the bottom line. Spyware/spammers can make enough to feed themselves and pay for these services to 'certify' them.
As end-users, we need to be educated to prevent these installations in the first place.
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
Does this mean the only anti-spyware solution we can trust is or should be open source?
I would think yes.
Anybody else?
IGB: More fun than eating oatmeal!
They should obviously know they'll lose a ton of business this way. My guess is that a TON of money was involved.
I think it might be a good idea for an online tester to get a hold of all the popular Adware/Spyware removers and test them out side-by-side to figure out who "forgot" to block a given companies ads... Atleast then we could figure out who's on our side and who's on theirs...
Business \Busi"ness\, n.;
A scam in which all people involved perceive as beneficial...
Agreed! (this from a current Gentoo user ;) I also run a WinXP Pro box at home, and I'm quite confident that I don't have any spyware because I DON'T DO STUPID THINGS like blindly install binaries from nefarious sources. I have it behind a (linux) firewall, and I pretty much never run IE. If you are smart about it, you won't get spyware. It is as simple as that.
Can't say I've ever heard of Aluria's Spyware Eliminator. I've got my triumvirate of anti-spyware tools, and I'm satisfied:
No need to limit yourself to just one, either - run all three!
Anyone know of any Libre anti-spyware for Windows? I don't use MS products except at work, so don't have to worry about such things.
See what I've been reading.
..but to be fair, Aluria says that they're concerned with "malicious spyware." If you RTFA, they indicate that they felt that the disclosure practices and what-not are all above-ground.
Not that this helps people installing without scanning the EULA and getting nasty little "gifts," but it's hardly malicious if you agree to it.
*Disclaimer* I have no idea what exactly WhenU does, never had it on my system. If it IS malicious, then immediately discount this post. Regardless, I'll be busy vomiting from my over-exposure to advertising in general.
picpix image polls. create - share - vote. fun!
Apparently the keylogs weren't secure and someone inside the company stole his credit card info when he made a (work related) purchase from Amazon.com on his own credit card.
If you're at work and not using your own laptop or a Knoppix disk, make sure you only use a corporate credit card when ordering online.
Personally I think he should have sued his employer, but he wanted to keep his job.
Bah, IE is great. You just have to flip one switch to keep it from prompting to install activex programs. And that's only so you don't accidentally click yes. And even then, if you're not logged in as an administrator (and you shouldn't be any way) then you won't have any of these problems.
funny munging
Bah.
Since I started using adaware tools, I learned I could rely only on Spybot and Ad-Aware. Obviously, many others noticed their reliability too - just try googling for either of two, and see how many pages you can find with fake installers - some sites even distribute AdAware installations with modified malware definitions and crippled update, so your AdAware might even refuse to detect malware on your PC.
To me, it all smells so familiar... Just as M$ loves to force, bribe, coax or cajole software producers into specialising their products for Windows compatibility, so do too the malware distributers seek their fifth collumn... Similarities are far from passing.
'...computers in the future may have only 1000 vacuum tubes and perhaps weigh 1.5 tons...' Popular Mechanics, 03/49'
Good, Now its your job to make 250 Million Americans smarter (screw the rest of the world right). If people were smart about things there wouldnt be all kinds of things... scams happen outside of your computer too. So, because your such a smart mofo go change the world.
P.S. Just like the spyware companies make money off of dumb people, so do I. A very good living can be made backing up peoples files, removing spyware and viruses, installing programs as such. Businesses especially like good running computers.
I attempt to inform, if others dont want to listen, I get a good hourly rate.
As in: "Free, huh? Well, last time I agreed to install free software I had to spend $500 to have my PC cleaned up! No thanks!"
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Spyware will become a serious threat to operating systems of choice as well, once they become a bit more popular. It's exactly the kind of software that operating system level security cannot stop, namely, software willingly (if not knowingly) installed by the user.
Seeing that a lot of software for *nix systems needs to be installed as root, spyware could potentially bypass any OS security mechanisms, and there will be no end to the potential damage.
I think this situation needs addressing. Distributions supporting and simplifying installing software by regular users (as opposed to systemwide installation by the superuser) would be a good first step, with many additional benefits.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
I've caught shareware sites bundling my software with WhenU malware, without my permission, and without giving clear indications to users, causing problems for my customers and endangering my reputation.
I consider any program that sits in the background and pops up ads while the bundled application is not running to be unwanted malware.
As Slashdot is now proving, when this sort of thing comes to light, it totally destroys the brand image, and the credibility of the company goes down in flames. Sales plummet, people get laid off and the company never recovers.
Companies work very, very hard to create a brand image. Their brand is their promise to the consumer that they are going to deliver the best product possible. It's a really stupid CEO that is willing to sell out his brand in such a blatant conflict of interest.
I agree with you, however, you'd think at the very least Microsoft could do is ask you to enter the account credentials of an administrative account whenever you're about to install an application or modify core system settings.
This would prevent the vast majority of silent spyware installations.
Instead, we have no authentication and a "SYSTEM" super user account for applications to play Administrator with.
Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, START
Here's a clip from their joint press release with WhenU
From the desktop, WhenU software examines keywords, URLs and search terms currently in use on the opted-in consumer's browsers and then presents highly relevant advertising and services.
This is from their own press release! Who in their right mind would stake the reputation of their company on a declaration that such a product is not spyware?
I have modpoints right now, but am giving them up to reply ... since there isn't a (-1 Dumbass) moderation option.
... but thats another story.
--
The browser ID string by default isn't a huge deal because it doesn't tie info to a person. All it lets someone know is info about the software requesting resources from your site. You can go all 'tinfoil' if you want and mask it, but sometimes it has legitimate uses. It also gets abused by clueless 'webmasters' who lock out anything but IE (even though other browsers work)
The real world equivalent would be Wal*Mart counting how many people came into the store wearing hats. Not really a big deal.
The only way this is anything to worry about is with the addition of other spyware. There wouldn't be anything stopping a piece of spyware from altering the browser id string to contain a unique ID so that even if the user rejects cookies it could keep track of the user.
Aluria Software creates "Spyware Safe" icons for spyware!
Just the other day, my wife asked to have something called "Weatherbug" installed. I told her that I would install it for her, as long as it had no spyware.
It sure made me feel better when I went to http://www.weatherbug.com/ and saw the "Spyware Safe" icon from Aluria.
Well, right before the install of weatherbug, I cleaned the system, rebooted, and cleaned again to be 100% sure.
Right after the software about 35 items were found by Ad-Aware SE PE....so much for "Spyware Safe"!.
Aluria is just that...A LURE...a way to scam you!
I'm glad to now know that Aluria's "Spyware Safe" icon is really just scam.
-wpg
WhenU President and co-founder Avi Naider said the industry is falling on previous prejudices and lumping legitimate adware in with malicious spyware, failing to see the changes WhenU has made. (my bold)
How about NO ADWARE? The reason I got a spy/mal/adware remover was to be free from ALL adware. I don't want anybody pushing products on me when I'm on-line.
It seems Aluria has forgotten why they built an adware application in the first place.
It is not our abilities that show what we truly are... it is our choices.
Just tell them FireFox is anti-spyware 'cause its protected from ActiveX scripting installers.
Er... WinXP, new installation. Just formatted hd. Connected to internet : 20 seconds and it gets down due to a Blaster variant.
That's ok. I enabled the firewall.
I did a WindowsUpdate from Microsoft.com, while installing Firefox and Thunderbird. I wasn't doing anothing else, I assure you.
In the meanwhile, I installed and ran the antivirus.
6 _different_ trojans discovered. In less than 20 minutes connected to the internet, whithout even opening the mail _client_, let alone "suspect attachments" opened by "user stupidity".
Now, or it was the WindowsUpdater ActiveX SuperMegaPlusPlus ProfessionalEdition from Microsoft.com, or I'm not a dickhead, sorry to tell you that.
Just my 2 (euro)cents -- it doesn't strictly mean they're more valuable.
PS: as for your point b), feel free to send me an email the day you'll be able to uninstall IE from your computer.
PPS : I'm a Gentoo user too. An happy one. A so happy one, in fact, that I fdisked my winxp partition away almost a year ago and never felt sorry.
42.
Happens all the time.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
You should also consider investing in a windows resource kit or two... the su.exe program is very useful for making links to programs that are idiotically designed to need Administrator privledges.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
For a real AV app, run ClamAV. It's meant for mailservers, but it'll run. As for anti-spyware, they actually want RUNNING, or just installed? If it needs to be running, try running Ad-Aware Plus on WINE or Xover.
OK, we got spyware remover programs trying to keep up and remove 90%+ of the junk and now we got anti-spyware companies joining spyware companies for the purposes of removing themself as spyware? That's crazy!!
I invite you all to see how the whole spyware thing came about on one of the first sites to report on it at http://grc.com/downloaders.htm and also check out some of his freeware to help you protect yourself (Three Musketeers) which are directly on the home page @ http://grc.com/default.htm.
Good Spyware prevention and removal programs which are free, google for them:
SpywareBlaster (Prevent Spyware activex install)
SpywareGuard (Prevents spyware activity, similar to AV software)
AdAware SE (Spyware removal)
Spybot S&D (Spyware Removal+)
NOT FREE:
Webroot's Spy Sweeper (Good for preventing and scanning, no free version)
PestPatrol (Junk Removal for advanced users only!)
I run adaware, spybot, bazooka, teatimer, antivir, CWS shredder, AVG, and a few custom scanners I'v made myself for personal uses (batch file for deleting all cookies and IE cache). They all run via a batch script sunday while I'm doin' laundry and washin' dishes. I come back, press "ok" a few times, and it's tidy again.
Every time I find a scanner, I say "hey, it's free" download it, update it weekly, set the batch file to run the apps. It's a common security tactic called LAYERING. You've got 3 levels to network secuirty; instrustion prevention, instrusion detection, and intrusion elimination. Preventing intrustions is as simple as using firefox and some common sense, detecting and eliminating them are as simple as layering spyware scanners. I routinely find that one scanner catches what the other doesn't, and one regular deletion of a cookie catch catches what a number won't.
Take, for example, what I consider a good firewall setup; don't run 1 firewall, run 2 or 3. Preferably on different machines so an exploit on one firewall doesn't lead to the machine getting r00ted and your extra firewalls being useless.
As for what this is, this is bullshit. Frankly, EULA's hold up in court, but they're BS; you can copyright a program just like you can copyright a song (songs have octaves and time, computer's have on/off and time), but you CANNOT tell me that using it on a computer is copying, just like you cannot tell me playing a roll of sheet music on a player piano is copying, even if that piano happens to buffer the music entirely before playing it.
Frankly, I look at it this way. Most programs say you may not distribute the application. Now, wait a minute, I'm distributing it on my computer, from chip to chip, in it's entirety (take a good night of gaming) so technically, there's an arguement there that the software vendor is falsely advertising their software and inciting their customers into commiting copyright infringement. Either way, they lose. The problem here is EULA's, and they're being abused like no tommaow by these big corps to make a buck. I believe in letting them have their copyright (although, with today's copyright system being so fucked as it is, I only do so at my own discretion, but my discretion will take a long, long time to explain, so I won't go into it here).
As for a solution to this, well, there's a couple of ways to solve the problem. Frankly, my favoire would be r00ting them and cleverly disassembling the infrastructure of their company piece by piece. However, considering this is probably some grubby CS student clicking at the looking glass, I'd think it would be far more entertaining to send some convincing people over to his general neck of the concrete jungle to convince him that mabye this isn't the thing he should be doing for a living.
Barring that, I think it would be even funnier if we got some of the slashdot crowd to, say, go over to a website that pilfers this kind of wares, install the app, then file a class action lawsuit asking for $500 is removal costs per infected machine. If we succeed, we can make a tidy profit AND knock out spyware vendors.
Candy-Coated Knowledge
If what you say is true, windows would have 1% of the marketshare by now.
We're dealing with end users here, not experts. They just want something that works and expect their anti-virus company and anti-spyware company to deliver the goods.
What good is branding when the company in question used to be called Gator? They simply changed their name. So long bad PR!
Its cronyism and its killing IT. The entire spyware phenomenon can be traced to activex, which exists to tie the browser to the platform.
That said, I've been running into a lot of OSX converts. They got sick of windows and bought a used iMac for next to nothing or 999 for an ibook with some promotion. My next machine will be an iBook too. With Mozilla and Firefox telling lazy web designers and those who make corporate policy to pay attention to standards, the shift will be even easier.
I'm the owner/lead programmer of a somewhat popular media playback software.
WhenU mailed me a few times, which I ignored (I get quite a few of these adware requests). Then a few days later the phone rings (and I'm no U.S. citizen, this was an international call).
I didn't ask them where they got my name and number, but since it's only listed on my DNS records and no where on the site, I guess they actually went through the minor trouble of looking it up.
I had no plan on incoporating any spyware into my software, but I find it interesting hearing their pitch every once in a while.
At first they contacted me using a low-level employee which asked me if I want to arrange a "call" with their senior whatever in order to discuss this. I told them that I had no intention of incorporating their software into my own (installer), but they really wanted me to talk to their higher-up person. The tone they used made it sound as if this person was "important". I found it all very funny and was interested in their pitch.
The next day I got a phone call from their director of something or other. This person (woman) was quite articulate and held quite a bit of technology information (she wasn't a lackey, she knew her stuff).
She insisted that WhenU is working with the gov to make sure they are not outside the law (slashdot was running a story about law changes that may effect spyware), she actually said they were championing the law.
I asked her about the "spying" portion of their software. She assured me that the ad-selection was done locally on the host computer and no-data was sent to their servers.
In the end I asked/told her something very simple:
1. Does the user see more ads when using your software (yes).
2. Does your software appear as spyware on spyware removal tools (yes, but they are working on it).
3. Don't you think that by attaching a software that is detected as spyware will ruin the reputation of my own software? (no answer).
4. Can I validate what their program actually does? (no)
I told her there was no way I'm risking the prestine reputation of my software and making my users angry.
But as you can see, WhenU is really pushing hard...
it strikes me that viruses and spyware/adware/malware whatever you want to call it only differ from each other in that spyware contains an EULA. They're really both equally damaging to productivity, and I dare say that many spyware programs are harder to get rid of than viruses!
Why is it that spyware writers are free from prosecution? If virus writers wrote an EULA that was as unlikely to be read as those by common spyware programs, even if it stated explicetly that "this program is known as a virus, it will delete all your data and spread to other computers. Click yes if you agree to this", would that make virus authors immune to prosecution??
In other news, the FBI announced that it will partner with the RIAA and MPAA in a pioneering move to trim the federal budget through privatization. The newly repurposed agency will be called the FBIP, Federal Bureau of Intellectual Property, and its primary mission will be to enforce entertainment copyrights, trademarks and patents. Former RIAA chief Hilary Rosen, slated to head the FBIP, said protection Intellectual Property is the key to the safety of American consumers. "Terrorists don't want artists to be compensated for their work," said Rosen. "They hate our freedoms. Plus their music really sucks."
In arguing about the recent actions of Aluria, the discussion will inevitably be steered toward whether WhenU (is, is not) malware/spyware/crapware/*ware, i.e. whether it is right or wrong for Aluria to decide they don't fit Aluria's definition of a threat, and de-list WhenU. This conveniently sidesteps larger and much more ominous issues:
1) The amalgam (Aluria+WhenU) is now a competeting product to other spyware removers. (Aluria+Whenu) could more legitimately bring suit against AdAware/Spybot/etc. for the "anti-competitive" practice of removing WhenU.
As Eric L. Howes notes,
"It now appears that the Aluria scanner is actually bundled or integrated into the WhenUSearch Toolbar. In other words, by removing the WhenUSearch toolbar, other anti-spyware vendors will effectively be removing a competing anti-spyware product. Still worse, WhenU itself is now a competitor to other anti-spyware vendors."
2) The amalgam (Aluria+WhenU) can worm onto a click-happy user's system due to its existing title of "spyware eliminator", and summarily remove competing ad-belchers from that system (how convenient!). Now WhenU's promotions aren't being drowned out by Gator/Claria, Bargain Buddy and all their other popup-spewing friends you are likely to find on a spyware-prone (read: novice user) computer.
Do note that AOL is partnered with Aluria; AOL version 9 bundles Aluria Spyware Eliminator--so we're talking about a potentially enormous market here.
Caveat Emptor is not a business model.
I've been going through this with Sophos (our school's anti-virus vendor) recently. The following is the beginning of an exchange between me and them. Frankly, I think that the anti-virus vendors also need to get their act together and stop all this fence sitting bullshit.
.DLL files. Some of these cannot be cleaned by the traditional methods (AdAware/Spybot). For instance one of these 'VX2' has been found on a few computers here. It cannot be deleted, or when it is, it mysteriously comes back.
I don't care if a user 'willingly' installs this crapware - these are the SCHOOL'S computers, not theirs. Our policy is to not allow these programs on our network - PERIOD. I feel that Sophos is not doing their job in helping me control some of this uninstallable crapware like CWS.
Here's the exchange:
**
To whom it may concern...
As the sole administrator of of our small school network I am responsible for the integrity of our machines - software and hardware. Like everyone, we are struggling with spyware and related issues. Recently, we've been finding spyware that is installing itself without permission and attaching itself to
Question: What is the difference between a malicious spyware application and a trojan virus? What is Sophos planning to do about this type of vicious software? In short, when can I expect Sophos to start eliminating this sort of virus?
Thanks,
Chuck Hunnefield
Technology Coordinator
***
Chuck,
Adware and spyware are usually considered one issue by many people. In reality, the adware and spyware lables applies to those applications that you've put on your machine intentionally. Many people are unaware of these things since they very rarely read EULAs and have no idea what's really being placed on their machines. Spyware, however, can sometimes cross into the malware catagory if it's functionality prevents a very obvious security vulnerability or if the application behaves in a way that is different to how the user was told it would behave. Malware is the umbrella term for applications that have made their way onto your machine without your consent and usually without your knowledge. Most trojans that we detect can easily be labled "malware" and vice versa.
If you have samples of files that you believe fall under this malware heading, by all means submit it to supportus@sophos.com and our virus lab analysts will look at the sample, evaluate it's functions and determine how to classify the files. If it is found to be malicious, then we'll certainly add detection for it in our engine and/or release an IDE for it.
If it is not malicious and is not something that'd be considered viral, then we will not currently have detection for it.
So to briefly answer your final question, Sophos has always and will continue to detect malicious files that reside on your machines.
Regards
Michael ***
Sophos Technical Support
***
Michael,
First of all, thank you for your quick response. I'm afraid I have to disagree with you about the labels 'adware' and 'spyware' being intentionally installed. Increasingly we are seeing these 'applications' (and I use this term loosely) getting installed through holes in I.E. or the OS. A perfect example would be this 'VX2' application. I feel fairly certain that nothing my users did invited this software onto their computer.
I fully understand how difficult your situation is concerning applications willingly installed by users. Applications like Comet Cursor, Gator/Claria, Weatherbug, and Date Manager are WELL known to me. And it may well be that software like VX2 is also installed through these means; but regardless of how it got there, it's unwelcome there now. Should ANY software be allowed to install itself and/or not allow user removal? I think this is covered under the new anti-spyware law recently passed by the U.S. Congress. If an app like VX2 downloads other applications unbidden and worms it's way through
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
Do not confuse saving Windows with saving the Internet. I am quite certain IBM, as altruistic as they may be, is perfectly happy to let spyware twist the knife and drive people awayfrom Windows and to Linux.
Gary Dunn
Open Slate Project
> And it may well be that software like VX2 is also installed through these means
That's one way VX2 is getting installed, yes. Another is by bundling with IE exploits.
For example the achtungachtung exploit (covered recently by Tom Liston in the SANS Internet Storm Center blog) compromises the machine then downloads a large number of spyware programs, including Transponder/VX2.
This has been going on for some time. Mindset/BetterInternet (the company behind VX2) is quite happy to pay affiliates to load their software using wholly illegal security exploits, and if Sophos doesn't think this is grounds for removal they're crazy.
You're surprised there is more money in the spam and spyware then the anti of them?
Wake up. There is orders of magnitude more money on the advertising and blackmarket side.
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
Oh, yeah, Ironport claims their multimillion e-mail per hour senders are only for use by good guys. Right.