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Blackboxvoting.org Raises Vote-Audit FOIA Request
aacool writes "Blackboxvoting.org has raised the largest Freedom of Information request in history. At 8:30 p.m. Election Night, Black Box Voting blanketed the U.S. with the first in a series of public records requests, to obtain internal computer logs and other documents from 3,000 individual counties and townships. Networks called the election before anyone bothered to perform even the most rudimentary audit. Among the first requests sent to counties (with all kinds of voting systems -- optical scan, touch-screen, and punch card) is a formal records request for internal audit logs, polling place results slips, modem transmission logs, and computer trouble slips."
Out of curiosity, can anyone expect to process and audit that data in a reasonable timeframe? Especially on a volunteer basis?
I'm glad someone's on this. The scariest thing about all these new voting technologies is the idea that if something were to go wrong, intentionally or otherwise, we wouldn't even find out about it.
they could find all the evidence they need of record tampering... of votes being miscast... of these machines being totally unfit for the democratic process....
and you would never see anything about it in the mainstream media....
"In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson
The electors haven't voted yet, so there is nothing to be "undone".
I don't think it should be legal to concede. Screw checking out the voting machines, and have all the uncounted voters sue Kerry, Bush, and whomever else. By conceding the race and not counting those votes, it's effectively denying the right to vote for those individuals. This includes overseas (military and civilian), uncounted provisional votes, and absentee ballots. Every vote counts, so count every vote!
WTF. Sarcasm?? You're upset that someone is trying to independently validate the election?
What will your response be when their request is denied?
I just sent in my $100 donation. Put your money with your mouth is.
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
-- Pablo Picasso
I wish I had some mod points for you, but instead I'll just have to second you. The national results pretty well match the exit polling results, and the national polls for the past few days. Kerry lost largely on high voter turnout for those who opposed him on moral grounds, especially gay marriage.
I still wish that there were some way of doing a recount, even though it doesn't appear to be necessary in this case. It wouldn't entirely surprise me if there were shennanigans; I've heard of various ugly games played to influence voters. But here it seems that the Deibold machines did their jobs. I stil don't trust them but I'm not going to dispute the results.
Really, really poor taste? Yep. Probably a fucking stupid thing to say when you're CEO of a company that makes electronic voting machines?
I'd go farther than that. I'd say that having made such a comment should either make Diebold ineligible for the election, or should make him lose his job. That's the kind of thing you don't joke about when you're in a position of power.
It would be like the Supreme Court justices joking that they would make sure that Bush got elected before rendering their 2000 decision.
If America is the greatest country in the world, with it's freedoms and the right to vote, why can't they decide on a consistent form of voting? It seems to be, watching from the outside, there were so many different ways to vote, depending on where you were, whether it was electronic voting machines (and each of those were from different vendors)or paper ballots. In addition, the whole confusion and legal challenges to "provisional" and "absentee" ballots just muddied the waters even further. I also find it scary that something so important as voting can be done using hap-hazard machinery which is unauditable and unreliable. Hearing some of the stories coming from the different news agencies (CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC, etc.), it almost sounds like the voting system is a 3rd world style system.
What's needed is a voting system that's consistent across the country with checks and balances to ensure audit trails. I know that Americans take pride in the fact they vote for their government. Their system needs to be first class to ensure their vote doesn't become a circus. The American government need to ensure validity of the vote by ensuring voting is done in a consistent manner across the country, and if that is electronic voting, then they need to ensure the voting results are NOT subject to fraud or manipulation.
Please note this is not a "bashing America" rant, but the zaniness about electronic voting has to stop!
It is not our abilities that show what we truly are... it is our choices.
There's a lot of people who are arguing that the election was 'stolen' by Diebold others who say that things are just fine...
The bottom line is -- until we look and until there's a paper trail we just don't know.
For all we know, Diebold could be sucking votes out of the system like a cancer sucking the life out of a body. Do we just turn our heads and not go to the doctor for a test? We do need to know what happened in an objective, non-partisan manner. Perhaps Bev Harris is the one to do that, maybe not, but it needs to be done.
Additionally, we need to fix the voting system. We need to form a true non-partisan grass roots effort to get accountability back into the system. I don't want people to ever question the results of an election. We need to have ballot initiatives lawsuits, whatever. I'm not an expert on how to force these changes on the voting system, but I'm willing to learn and it needs to be done.
Not disputing the results, sure, that's entirely reasonable...once standard auditing has been performed and suggests there is no reason to dispute the results.
The problem I have is that you have NO IDEA whether the Diebold machines did their job do you?
I have no interest in disputing the results, at this time, either. HOWEVER, I most certainly retain the right to dispute the results should an audit suggest anything was out of line.
I most deffinately want to see the results of the audits. Then, and only then, will I form a solid opinion on whether these machines 'did their jobs' or not.
No Comment.
Marginalizing those of us who have done our research on Diebold with your tinfoil hat references just serve to show how little you understand the risks posed by Diebold and their voting machines.
Let's list some facts about Diebold and their machines:
I've highlighted the really important bit. It's the giant pink elephant no media organization wanted to touch, and there's no logical explanation for it except to enable vote tampering.
People arguing for the use of voting machines seem to ignore all our warnings because they seem unable to grasp that any company/person would be capable of doing something like this. Once you get rid of that childish notion, you'll be buying your own roll of tinfoil mighty fast.
"The market alone cannot provide sufficient constraints on corporation's penchant to cause harm." -- Joel Bakan
"Can we at least agree (within obvious boundaries) to trust the process?"
/sent by the 'other' side/.
I'm surprised at all americans...Florida in 2000 has been proof that it is exactly the process which CAN'T be trusted. Striking thousands off the rolls based on having nothing more than the same last name as a criminal, or contesting your right to vote based solely on the fact that you didn't reply to a letter
Add to that the fact that the largest supplier of voting machines, which have been proved beyond any doubt to not be secure, has ties with the ruling party and has publically said that he will do anything to help said party...
How could anyone in their right mind not be suspicious of the process? Especially when it has demonstably been abused in the past.
-- Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?
And where would this evidence come from?
How many audit's do you think have occurred at this point? Here's a clue: the number's big and round.
Come on now people, black box voting is trying to address the inherent, proven issues with the current state of electronic voting. This has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the results of the election. This has EVERYTHING to do with technology. And yet a flame like this is moderated insightful.
Really, wtf. No wonder Bush got voted in again.
Ah well, I should be happy. I'm Canadian and the loonies soaring quite well today thanks to the results.
No Comment.
If only I had mod points. I think in some circles they would call a statement like that 'motive', and the position he was in 'means'.
-- Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?
When I have one friend who was never sent his absentee ballot from Florida, despite their multiple claims of sending it... and when I have another friend who had her proper identification challenged by a Republican poll worker in Madison, WI, retrieved more proper identifications, and was challenged again by the same person, requiring a poll manager to allow her to vote... it's kind of hard to trust the process.
It's absolutely amazing to me that in this day and age that we can't even take a simple count.Hmm.. How about equal protection under the law? You know, the first of those so-called 'self-evident' truths..
As a non-American, that is what boggles the mind.
With everything going on, the election is decided on "moral issues"? Me no understand...although, you gotta hand it to Bush's campaign people for realizing near the end that it was the only type of campaign they could win.
Reason why there is hope for the future generation #364:
"I wish my grass was emo so it could cut itself."
I am absolutely thrilled that there is an organization devoted to ensuring that the electoral process is clean and that electronic voting systems are being used appropriately and without tampering. I am also glad that Kerry did the manly thing today and condeded when it became clear that the numbers couldn't add up to his victory in Ohio any way you sliced it.
Despite the fact that I accept the election results (though personally I don't like them), I still want to know that the election was carried out in a fair way, and to ensure that the much debated electronic voting systems aren't being tampered with and are being run in a secure manner, and thank God these people are trying to make sure that is the case.
Take a look at Miami-Dade ... IIRC, they are using touch-screens there.
... though Diebold made sure to design their equipment to be impossible to audit, a deliberate design decision in stark contrast to the ATMs they manufacture as their core business.
... again, as a deliberate design decision, in contrast with other banking equipment Diebold manufactures.
... abdicating fully their position as our democracies watchdog and a check and balance on the government.
Miami-Dade was supposed to be incredibly Democratic and they only got a 54-46 margin.
Very suspect.
I agree with your conclusion, but not with your reason.
The Diebold touchscreens are a bit of a red herring. Yes, they are a concern and should be audited (and auditable)
The Diebold tabulators are the real concern. Like the touchscreen machines, they produce no paper trail and are difficult or impossible to audit
The tabulators are the big computers that collect millions of votes and tallies them up. They are used to count votes from touch screens, as well as from other precincts using everything from op-scan sheets to punch cards. A two digit back door code will let you change voting totals, with absolutely no evidence that you've done so.
In every other country, when exit polls differ significantly from the official results, it is generally considered a pretty strong indicator of voter fraud. In the United States, CNN simply changes their polling data to match the official result
I have no idea if the elections in Ohio and Florida were rigged, or if Bush won legitimately. I truly hope it is the latter. I don't expect the US to emerge from four more years with much intact in the way of its economy and influence in the world, much less with many of the social gains of the last quarter century still intact, but it would be far worse for America if Bush stole this election than if he won it legitimately.
The problem is, with machines that are designed to be impossible to audit, and with tabulators that have a software feature designed to facilitate fraud, we can't know.
Ever.
And that is terribly disturbing.
To any critically thinking mind, the legitimacy of this entire election is serious doubt, and would have been irrespective of who won. Using unauditable equipment in an election undermines the entire process at its most fundamental level, and does more to destabilize the political climate in America than a thousand bin Ladens could possibly ever achieve.
Diebold and others who produce similarly shoddy election equipment need to be put out of business, immediately and perminently.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Same thing here. Find and fix the problems now, when the race has been conceded, and the result isn't in doubt, so that, when we need to be able to count on the system to count every vote, we can.
And here's the problem with American politics - idiots treating it like it's a sporting event, rooting for "their team" instead of understanding issues.
Bev Harris and BlackboxVoting are certainly doing great work in exposing fraud and corruption among DRE voting machine makers (and other types, for that matter).
But the real solution to the problem, long term, past the current election, is to get electronic voting machines based on open source code, and that produce voter-verifiable paper ballots. It just so happens that there's an organization for that purpose that could really use some assistance (financial and otherwise) right now: the Open Voting Consortium.
Just to be extra-sexy, our reference system uses Linux and Python :-).
BTW. Some readers will think: "What's wrong with plain old paper and pencil?" Actually, there's not so much wrong with that. I just used a pencil to vote in Massachusetts yesterday, and it worked great. Paper ballot. Zero line at the polls. Perfectly transparent. Great security (just look at that padlock on the ballot box).
But electronic machines do have a few good things, as long as their source code is open and the print out paper ballots after selections are made: Multi-lingual; blind accessible (using audio interface) and special interfaces for motor-impaired voters; large fonts for vision impaired voters; prevent overvotes and unintentional undervotes.
Buy Text Processing in Python
Naturally Diebold disputes it - I don't see that as noteworthy. I'm not very impressed with the auditing they undergo either, as the software which was leaked was software which had been deployed on voting machines, had passed audits, and was FULL of problems. So all things considered I'm going to dismiss that. There's a lot of problems with Diebold machines, and while I don't think that outright election fraud is one of them (at least not organized - maybe there's a rouge developer or three, but I emphsize that I have no proof of that) I think that they are real problems none the less. The "workarounds" for procedural issues (like printing "System Tests passed") should be familiar to anyone who's worked in government or even a lot of corporate software development. It's slapping stuff together to make it work and keep your users from looking too closely at it. I think that for something this important that sort of behavior shouldn't be tolerated.
Finally, I think that the Kerry campaign, even if they suspected election fraud, wouldn't do jack without hard-edged, totally irrefutable proof. It'd be a political nightmare and they're going to swallow it and try again in 4 years. The Democrats took an enormous hit over Gore pursuing the Florida thing, and that was with evidence of widespread abuse and inconsistencies in the voting record (including from Diebold machines). Did those abuses and incosistencies change the 2000 election? Maybe. Probably not, but they did exist.
Relying on someone else to validate a distrust of the system is pretty much always a bad idea. It's even worse when the person you're replying on is part of the system. It'd be like saying that CNN couldn't have edited it's poll results, because FOX would have reported on it. I kinda wish Kerry did push it, because there's a lot of problems with our election system (all that crap in Florida last time didn't only happen there, that's just what got the press cause it was the swing state), but on the other hand it'd be political suicide for him in 2008, it'd cause a lot of animosity, and even if they weren't actually partisan (fat chance) anything they brought up would be dismissed as partisan.
No. The president of Diebold promissed Bush the victory. It was reported that exit polls weren't matching reported votes.
I *don't* trust the process. I consider this election to be a fraud at the presidential level, and possibly from top to bottom. I'd be willing to be convinced otherwise (the evidence is, I will admit, quite shakey), but the needed evidence is not only hidden, it's in custody of the presumptive villians. So it's going to be quite difficult to come up with evidence that I will consider more reliable than what I already have (i.e., not very reliable).
The process was designed to be difficult to verify, so WHY should it be trusted?
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Damn. Did you just say that the only way for something to be independent was for it to be a federal agency? I think you're misunderstanding something.
Mississippi is 40% black, 60% white. Only Washington DC has a higher concentration of black folks (61%, no wonder they can't get representation in Congress). Nationally, Blacks voted for Kerry 10 to 1, whereas Whites voted for Bush 2 to 1. Black populations tend to be social conservatives who vote based on economic and civil rights issues. While most black churches tend to focus on economic and social justice issues, white churches focus on social issues like abortion and gay rights.
If you'd like to see how well this works out for the Republicans, check out these jokers.
It's a lot easier to be worried about white church issues when you don't have to worry about putting food on the table. Mississippi has a poverty rate approaching 20% whereas the national average is nearly half that for all races but 23% nationally for blacks. Quite frankly, it's also the reason I think hypocrite whenever I hear white folks getting all uppity about "values" when black communities are still stuck with the same statistical difference on lifespan, education, home ownership and business ownership, infant mortality that they've always had with white people.
This country has never properly compensated it's black population for 300+ years of racism and slavery and the statistical numbers show it. The GOP will never increase it's vote among the black population until it quits playing lip service to these issues and actually does something about it. Bill Clinton was America's "First Black President" for a reason.
Hell, you couldn't pay Republicans enough to walk the neighborhoods I have to get the vote out. The most poignant satirical illustration of this I've seen was the faux South Park cartoon in Bowling for Columbine. White America seems to pretty much be oblivious when it comes to how other people live and running scared because of ignorance. Racism in this country isn't dead, it's just gotten a hell of a lot more subtle.
Arrogance is Confidence which lacks integrity. -- me
The encumbent President who
* lost the popular vote in 2000 (winning by a hair on the basis of some very sketchy events)
* started a War on false pretenses (WMDs?)
* sent over 1000 young Americans to their death.
* and many thousands more mamed and disabled.
* not to mention many thousands of dead innocent Iraqis.
* who's Vice President's (prior?) employer received gigantic government contracts on a silver platter.
* Putting the nation into the Largest Debt ever. (20% and 420 billion dollars over budget in 03!)
All the while...
* Millions of Illegal Aliens have flooded into the country --over 12 million now make up the general population.
* the nation's Economy lost more Jobs than it has in over 70 years. Hundreds of thousands!
* average Wages are down.
* the Stock Markets have stagnated.
* Education, Health Care and Energy costs have risen multiple times more than the normal inflation rate.
* and plenty of other nasties.
And now you're telling me that he honestly earned _more_ of the popular vote? Why?
* Because homosexuals want to get married?
* Becasue he gave you a few dollars back on your tax return --and a whole lot of YOUR dollars to _millionares_?
* Becuase scientists want to use unviable fertility clinic embryos (_not_ abortion embryos) in order to try to save lives like Chris Reeves?
* Because he'll protect us better? Funny I think two big buildings were blown up on _his_ watch.
Again, you're telling me this President got _more_ of the popular vote this time around?
In an election where
* _all_ the exit poles are 5-10% "wrong"?
* in which more of the youth voted --voters well known to lean to the left.
* a larger turn out translated into more Republican votes, which has _never_ happened in history.
* thousands of new unverifiable e-voting machines have been used in, guess what, mostly Democratic and Africa American strong holds. Huh, that's odd.
...
If you haven't realized by now that this election has been rigged again, even better than the last time, then you are a dope.
"It's a lot easier to be worried about white church issues when you don't have to worry about putting food on the table. Mississippi has a poverty rate approaching 20% whereas the national average is nearly half that for all races but 23% nationally for blacks. Quite frankly, it's also the reason I think hypocrite whenever I hear white folks getting all uppity about "values" when black communities are still stuck with the same statistical difference on lifespan, education, home ownership and business ownership, infant mortality that they've always had with white people."
Dude, your above statement is a racist generalization. Lumping "White Folks" or "Blacks" together when making blanket statments is the definition of a stereotype. Next are you gonna say that white folks can't dance and black people love chicken?
_PEOPLE_ are concerned about things that are important to them - it doesn't matter what color they are.
The people who have to _distinguish_ the color are the ones with the problem. Every person is an individual. When the whole world starts to think like that, we won't have a need for the word "Racist".
Do all Black people want the same thing? That's what it sounds like when you say, "Only Washington DC has a higher concentration of black folks (61%, no wonder they can't get representation in Congress".
I didn't realize that Black people were a new Borg Collective! Support all people, rich, poor, from any background. Promote that.
Peace.
This audit needs to be done. A significant fraction of the US population is losing confidence that elections are being run fairly. The next step in this thought process is to decide that change can only come from methods outside the democratic process. Then we have bigger problems. Everyone, regardless of their political beliefs should be behind this.
Think I'm being sensational? The Iranian parliament just voted unanimously to resume uranium enrichment. Thanks to Bush and Co. going around the world like the Roman Empire threatening everyone, nuclear proliferation is now inevitable. The whole world is terrified of the U.S. and sees mutually assured destruction as their only ticket to security.
If in addition to the silly "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" shit, there was also rigging of the elections, maybe we all really deserve to be a-sploded with "nucular" weapons.
How ya like dat?