Slashdot Mirror
What is the Tech Jobs Situation in Late 2004?
CareerConfused asks: "Today I came across an ad in the NY Times, put out by Microsoft, Micron, Level 3 (among others) that claimed that the H-1B visa quota for FY2005 has already expired (it claims the quota expired the first day of FY2005, which started just about a month back). OK. On the one hand, we have
stories of techies not finding jobs; and on the other, we have stories from businesses which claim that lack of H1s is killing their business, as well as public advocacy (like that ad in NYT). So, what is it? Are we in another boom, with jobs going a-begging and companies requiring more H1s to fill them? How come I haven't noticed this in the form of a fatter paycheck (or an Aeron chair, or a fooseball table in the cubicle)?" What have you experienced in your searches for technology-based jobs? Is it still hard to sell your hard-earned skills or are things looking up?
While its one thing to claim that the lack of H1Bs is killing your business because Americans don't want to move to Fort Wayne, Indiana. It's quite another to say that you can't find a job in Silicon Valley. What's needed is an overall view of how tech jobs are doing across the country. What areas are in desperate need of technical skills and what areas are suffering from a shortage of jobs?
Moved here, and had a great paying job as a Data Analyst in NYC within a week.
If I can do it... either you're spending all of your time just looking online (which is doomed for failure) or you just don't know how to properly search/interview for a job.
An employment councillor can help you with either problem.
I've spent about two and a half years now in a fairly stable job at a big company. I work with people I either like or don't mind, the work is sufficiantly satisfying even considering that I have to occassionally deal with big company political bullshit, the hours are reasonable and I (obviously) still have time to do some light /.'ing. All of this is a significant improvement over the
two startup jobs I had back in 2001 where the hours were insane, the
people were nutjobs and I was very, very unhappy.
OTOH, I've been more or less in limbo in terms of pay. Despite adding considerably to my skillset, I've gotten extremely modest raises that have more or less kept up with inflation if you don't count in gas prices.
Aside from that: Items like Aeron chairs and foosball tables and game systems in the break room and people keeping excessively odd hours can stay gone. I never liked those -- maybe I'm an exception, but I'm at work to *work*, I want to get my work done and leave. I'm working so I can afford to have a life outside of work, not because I really get off on plugging away on my TPS reports. The absolute worst part about all of those "perks" were that they slowed down the whole works and as a side effect created an expectation that you should live at work more than the 8-9 hours a day God intended. "Where's Bob? I need him to look over something." "Oh, he's playing in the Wednesday Tekken Tourney, he'll be out in an hour or two"...
Back to the subject at hand, though: The environment now is such that I could probably go make more money someplace else, but to be honest I am *extremely* hesitant to stick my head back out there after getting bitchslapped so badly last time.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
I'm pretty sure the submitter gets it, but doesn't want to admit it. Yes, there is a demand for qualified techies coming in on H1-B's. Yes, a good number of domestic techies are having hard times finding employment. However, these two items are not mutually exclusive.
See, managers wised up. They found out that you can either hire a domestic techie for 50-80k/yr or hire an imported techie for 25-35k/yr. As an added bonus, the imported techie will be thankful for the opportunity he has, and do everything he can to appease the management that hired him.
I'd _love_ to see a tariff on 'imported' labor. However, I'm not an economist.
Karma: SELECT `karma` FROM `users` WHERE `userid`=138474;
One change I've noticed is that XML and related technologies are getting bigger and bigger, and it's redefining what it means to be a web application developer. I feel like my skill set is being spread thinner than pâte.
Other than that, it's the same old situation:
1. Employers seeking ridiculously diverse skill sets. What do you want, a software developer with ten years experience, or a GIS specialist with database skills? Pick ONE!
2. Employers requiring experience or expertise in obscure software, but who are unwilling to train. (We're smart; we can learn your industry-specific database front-end for god's sake!)
3. Shops with a depressing preference for Microsoft and IBM languages and software. LAMP jobs and their ilk are comparitively scarce, and therefore highly competitive.
4. HR people who don't know what they want/need. The other day someone posted a "need" for a C# developer with more than five years experience.
So employers are feeling a crunch from the H1 issue. Fine, I'll take that underpaid position! Where is it? We've talked about this before, and I understand that employers are trying to thin the pool by posting stringent (or ideal) requirements, but I think it's getting out of hand and alienating worthy applicants in the process.
As for the relocation bit, I don't buy it. I would welcome the change to relocate almost anywhere in the world for a decent job. I would appreciate a system that makes it easier for employers willing to hire from a remote job pool to find job seekers who are serious about relocating. Monster's system is just too limited.
I think on the whole your luck will depend on your particular field, your degree, and most importantly your skill level.
I am a UNIX admin, 10 years experience, currently admin'ing about 1000 Sun servers. I am definitely a "new school" type admin, utilizing Perl and other tools to work smarter, not harder. B.S. degree in science/math field from large university.
I haven't found the market to be horrible in the Philadelphia/Delaware area. I think I've been lucky, but I have not ever taken a pay cut to this day.
I think good UNIX and network people will be in demand for the forseeable future. Not so sure about Windows admins and coders.
A year spent in artificial intelligence is enough to make one believe in God.
Back in the 90's eveyone was hearing on the news and from campuses that the best (read as: highest paying) jobs were in the computer sector. They flooded the market. Now over the past 3-5 years the new students have been hearing "don't go into that people are losing their jobs to overseas" so they choose a different field. Thus eventually creating a need for more workers. So in turn when the salaries increase again and the overall need for workers increase once again there will be a surplus of workers and not enough jobs. Hopefully the students in the colleges now are in their fields because they want to do it and not because it will make them 100K a year after graduation. This way you get the person who loves what they do.
A bunch of Tech Stuff
Back in the 1970's, there was a big push towards automated coding. The idea was machines would be given a set of parameters and write their own applications, thus killing the demand for skilled technical workers throughout the United States. Fear and hysteria reigned, and I know a lot of people who left technology careers as a result.
Fast forward to 1997, when I was graduating college. For years I had worked as an intern / volunteer / gopher in various computer labs and become familiar with the major issues in computer science. For one thing, information technology jobs had not gone away, they had just changed to the point where they no longer looked like they did when I was a kid. On the other hand, some of the scientific coders were having to learn how to code HTML and produce graphics, which was really a strange thing to ask them to do based on their last 20 years of experience.
IT doesn't go away, it intensifies, and so to do IT professionals. My company, www.trellon.com, is almost unable to find qualified people to work on our projects. This is not because their is such high demand for workers we cannot compete, this is because it is tough to find professionals with the right mix of technology and other disciplines in their background. For every 20 people I meet, 16 of them get disqualified based on a lack of subject matter expertise outside of coding. (3 of the rest turn out to be exaggerating on their resume, and the 1 truly qualified applicant seems to always have some issue that keeps us from wanting to make him an offer).
I guess what I see is that there is still demand in IT, sometimes it just doesn't look like the work you used to do. GIS is big right now, I still get calls from recruiters offering insane salaries. OSS programmers are big right now, lots of people are looking for data warehousing solutions that do not depend on Oracle and SQL Server. Flash is big right now, and I regularly receive RFPs for companies willing to build RIAs.
Threads like this irk me a little bit because it always looks like people are waiting too long to ask the right questions. There should be some place where people can just ask what technology is in big demand and hook up with the resources to learn so they can provide a more valuable service. But fretting about the state of the IT industry is like worrying about automated coding back in the 70s - it's here right now, but all we know about IT is that innovation is forever.
M
Well, if other places are like where I work, people are looking for jobs because they are tired of VPs who got fat bonuses this year telling them "you don't get a raise this year, and you are lucky you even have a job." They are willing to treat their employees like crap because the market will bear it. You can only take that for so long before you start looking. Because I work for a very large company, if the market picks up it would be a year or two before I would see any benefits from it (like a raise). Therefore, my best option is to get out as soon as possible. It may take longer to accomplish this because of the market, but that is what I am working towards.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
> "So, what is it? Are we in another boom"
You're not in a boom, or in a bust. You're in a plutocracy. So Americans lose jobs and companies hire foreigners for less money to help pay for those multi-million-dollar executive bonuses. You realize your annual salary is probably a fraction of what your CEO's office furniture is worth, don't you? In the grand scheme of things, your worth (my worth) is slightly below that of a desk and chair. Welcome to the new economy.
Sucker. Here's the real scoop. (Assuming Army)
Basic Training (8 Weeks): Rolling in mud. Getting yelled at. Pushups. KP.
AIT (8-40 Weeks depending on MOS): "Learning" how to do your wiz-bang commo-crypto stuff from NCOs who are so incompetent that the only place the Army dare send them is . . . AIT.
First Duty Station (1-2 years): Pick up cigarette butts. Run a buffer.
Second Duty Station (1-2 years): Pick up cigarette butts. Run a buffer. Do something related to your MOS on occasion.
Third Duty Station (remainder of enlistment): Supervise the picking up of cigarette butts. Teach FNGs how to run the buffer without banging the shit out of the walls and/or exhausting themselves. Do something related to your MOS fairly regularly. Be shit upon by NCOs for every little thing that goes wrong in the unit.
Enjoy.
-Peter
Aside from that: Items like Aeron chairs and foosball tables and game systems in the break room and people keeping excessively odd hours can stay gone. I never liked those...
I was going to post more or less the same thing but you beat me to the punch. I wanted to smack the submitter when I read him whinning about not seeing foosball tables making a return. All that shit was complete waste. Those days are gone, my friends. Here at slashdot we like to laugh at how stupid management is. But they are smart enough not to get burned twice on buying a lot of pointless shit like that.
I think it's time for programmers to stop waxing nostalgic about crap and start worrying more about how to make programming in the US (as opposed to outsourcing it) a valuable commodity. Time to start worrying about saving up enough money that you might actually get a chance to retire when Social Security collapses. Time to start paying more attention to whether a prospective employer has a solid medical plan rather than counting the number of foosball tables or arcade games they have in the break room. In short, it's time to grow up.
GMD
watch this
The father of my step-children is in the Army, and is about to head off for his second 12 month tour in Iraq. He's been to Germany, Kosovo and Afghanistan over the last several years. While he has some great skills from being in networking and satellite communications, his marriage fell apart and his kids call me 'dad' because they've never really seen him. Everytime he's moved post, they've messed up his pay, messed up his insurance for the kids, or botched something else up. He often has little to no choice in where he is stationed because the technical field skills are not needed at every military base in the US (or abroad). Luckily he is near his kids this time (until he leave for Iraq next week), but who knows what happens when he comes back. If he's needed at Fort Middle-Of-Nowhere in South Dakota, then that's where he goes. All of this in exchange for being deployed in areas where you are surrounded by people that want you dead.
The military is good for some people I suppose, but after knowing someone this closely I can't believe anyone with a family would opt for that kind of life. I've heard it's better if you can go the route of a CO, but the majority of the armed forces aren't that high level. It's definitely not like the commercials on TV with soldiers jet skiing and playing golf -- at least not in my personal opinion formed by observing from afar.
Keep in mind that when companies whine about "not being able to find enough tech people", they are only telling you 1/2 the story.
What they are really saying is that "We can't find enough tech people willing to work at the wage we want to pay them (usually low) with the benefits that we want to give them (usually poor) in the location that we want to employ them (usually low rent for the company, but high rent for the employee - unless he likes commuting an hour one way)."
From my viewpoint jobs are few and salaries are dropping. Where I'm at now is trying to centralize SysAdmin work to Ohio to save on salaries, and layoff SA's in the data centers around the country. The positions they are replacing SA's with is a combo desktop/server support tech. In other words just eyes and hands to do reboots if necessary. Even server builds are being centralized and a traveling install teams to do the racking and cabling. My company isn't the only one I hear trying to work this way. The last place I worked did a similar move, they left SA's in the data centers and let go all SA in remote sites. Desktop support were the eyes and hands in remote sites.
So if your job doesn't end up going overseas, they may just centrallize it to a city with a low cost of living and just have generic techs in all other sites.
I can complie a Linux kernal, but don't know how to write a device driver. Willing to learn. Can you post the URL to the opening? I think many companies are unwilling to train employees (cost of doing business?). Also, companies are looking to narrowly in skills. They expect the whole to be filled completely. That's why they rely on interns and college grads. Interns are paid poorly to train up, then they get hired as a grad with the skills learned as an intern. Do companies ask potential hires if they are willing to take a pay cut while learning the required skills?
At least in the Bay Area it seems like a lot of places are hiring now. Everyone I know that's actually good at their job is employed and most of their companies are hiring. It's hard to get a job but except for a couple years in the late '90s it's always been hard. The industry is competitive and you need some way to stand out. I spent a long time trying to package myself as a jack of all trades as far as design goes and got very little interest. If you think the programming market is flooded with unqualified people you have no idea, in 2002 I spoke with a recruiter who was getting 1200+ resumes for every design position she posted. It was only when I focused my resume and portfolio on exactly what I wanted to do that I got the job I wanted.
The times of being able to post "OH HAY GUYS I CODE AND STUFF" on craigslist and having recruiters trying to beat your door down so you could make 90k to write text parsing code were a fluke.
Good luck. I have a friend who joined whose MOS is as a lab tech - you know, analyzing biopsies and stuff like that in a hospital. They changed the specialty for everyone in his unit to "combat medic", redeployed them to Fort Bragg, and are going to be sending them to the middle of the Sunni Triangle. The window for deployment opens today.
Anyone who things they're getting a get-out-of-iraq-free card when they join the military with a non-combat MOS should seriously think again.
The *special* hell.
Goverment wants more tax, corporations want cheaper labor. Government wants non-refundable social security tax, corporations want disposable labor that can work long hours on the same cheap pay. Let me explain what I think is going on here, I have been a H1 visa holder for 5 years now, so there is some credibility to this. And to put it mildy H1-B visas are a legal documents for indentured servitude, a modern day legalized slavery. Slavery by Govt and Corporations. As far as tax is concerned Govt makes more money on H1-B visa holders than on GC or US Citizens. Let me explain how, 2 persons earning 45K each pay more tax (approx >= 15%) than a single person earning 90K (which is what you usually get by the time you get your Green Card(GC) or if citizen with 3-4 years of experience). Plus for citizen of China and India, they cannot claim their social security tax after their 6 year H1-B period ends and they are asked to leave USA (if GC has not been acquired by then). From the corporate perspective it is easier to control and pay cheap alien workers than it is to deal with GC and citizens. Plus most alien workers due the fear, of H1 cancellation at the whim of the employer, are always genuflecting, bending over and working long hours. Corporates want more control over their work force and they get it through H1, because for H1 holders changing permanent jobs is tougher compared to GC and citizens. A case in point is George Bush's latest move to legalize illegal mexican by granting them a three year (H1-B) work permit, now this H1 quota is separate from the current 65000. The aim is to put the employer in the driver seat and tax these mexicans. And I can vouch that for the majority of the cases US citizens are smart and efficient software developer then H1-B counter parts. These kinds (citizens) might be less in number but I sincerely doubt that. H1-B guys are mostly hard workers but not neccessarily smart and efficient, most of them including me tend to gain software knowledge through job pressures. So why are H1-B guys here in the first place. Well Duh!!! its the Benjamins, the value of US dollor. It won't be an exaggeration if I said that more than 80% of the current H1-B lot will go back their home countries if they get paid 60% of what they are paid here.
Where exactly in Florida ? Because I'll tell you right now that they haven't been coming to South Florida.
We've got more H1B's per capita than you can shake a stick at. Right now, I think I'm one of less than a handful who are US Citz, the rest here are H1B's. And believe me, there were more than enough people locally to perform these jobs.
It's not a matter of NOT finding people to perform the job, it's a matter of companies not finding people to do the job FOR WHAT the companies feel like paying. Never mind you that there are plenty of qualified candidates, don't be fooled, there are. Companies will use the boo-hoo-hoo excuse to not provide higher compensation packages.
There ARE people out there to do the job, that CAN do the job, companies just don't feel they're worth it. And frankly, the excuse of comparing a BS ( or higher ) educated CompSci individual with a migrant farm worker, is not only ridiculous...it's getting old. Detractors....find a better analogy. I doubt you will, but by all means, knock yourselves out trying.
And for those "chosen" few. You can STILL be a Republican, and speak up about Outsourcing being as major an issue as is "Homeland Security". If you don't get it, you just don't. Don't worry, the rest of us won't hold it against you. We're just as responsible as the rest of us in the GOP, we just don't feel like giving up our jobs.
Not to sound crass, but I think the key word here is luck. I too have 8+ years in UNIX admin, BS in EE and a BS in CS. Always had great reviews and many raises. Worked for Xerox, Kodak, and Cantor Fitzgerald. All big companies, all great experiences. I was laid off last year before Christmas. All part of the outsourcing fad. Anyway, I haven't been able to find a job yet. Still unemployed and no unemployment left to collect. From my view of the world, jobs are very limited. But that's just me. I've been very unlucky in my job search. Now with being out of the work force for so long, it's even harder to land employment. All I can say is if things are going well for you, then concider yourself fortunate. And if in your current job, you even remotely think things will turn bad (downsizing), imediately find a new job. Once you get laid off, it's very hard to get that next job. Trust me, employers are very prejudice about laid off employees. In my particular case, the whole department got whacked, but that doesn't matter. No matter how good you are, never think you have it made. After all, that's what I did, and what a mistake it was.
My friend this is the American cheap labor policy. Do you think a ultra advanced country can allow 8 million illegal immigrants to come into the country and stay? Of course, it was done to provide cheap labor and slavery in other names. Just like your H1 arguments, there are lot of Americans who CAN cut grass, clean toilets and make hotel beds. But employers just love to have illegal mexican immigrants for these jobs. And Uncle Sam loves having mexican slaves to do its dirty work. Software just happens to be higher paying and H1 people are not illegal. That is the only difference.
My company has been active in layoffs (we just bought an online travel site and have lots of "redundancies") but in speaking with a recuiter I usually use to GET people - he commented that he had placed lots of folks from my company who were leaving (either laid off or sick of the parent company - which I am as well).
Further - not to be brutal, but Colorado is tech heavy but had a LOT of scuds who were overpaid and underperforming in the bubble. Since, some talented folks HAVE left CO and others have found jobs they aren't willing to leave. The market for really good people is still tight. Where are you located and what's your skillset? I could always use a bad@ss Linux/*nix admin...
That being said, our governor IS worthless
Computer Science is Applied Philosophy