Slashdot Mirror
Do-Not-Call List Could Be Opened For Phone Spam
Wick_7654 submits a link to this story at the Chicago Sun-Times, which begins "The agency overseeing the national Do Not Call Registry is considering opening a loophole to allow companies to deliver 'pre-recorded message telemarketing.' The effort is being organized by Allen Hile of the FTC's division of marketing practice. Be sure to let the FTC know how you feel about it." The proposed change specifies that recorded calls would be allowed only when an "established business relationship" exists, but provisions like that tend to be stretched to absurdity.
Yes, sir, your uncle's second wife's stepsister's kindergarten teacher once bought a widget from us. That establishes a clear prior business relationship between you and us.
"The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance."
The proposed change specifies that recorded calls would be allowed only when an "established business relationship" exists, but provisions like that tend to be stretched to absurdity.
.....Right? Who here can truely say that CAN-SPAM hasn't stopped all spam from reaching their inbox?! I give this provision the thumbs up!
Hey...it worked with CAN-SPAM, right?
</sarcasm>
Bugs are just features that have been fixed.
Aren't companies allowed to make calls already if they have a "pre-established business relationship" with you? Has this changed or is the summary missing something?
"If you wish to create a business relationship with Spammers Inc., hang up now! If you already have a business relationship with us, please stay on the line."
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
and the fact that telemarketers have been drooling at the prospect of a list that they can get for free. Notch one up for the telemarketers lobbest and one down for the public.
This admin seems determined to allow large businesses to do whatever. The can spam act is a total joke just like what will happen to the federal do-not-call list
.One of the interesting things about it is that it allows large companies to do as they see fit. MSN (and I believe Yahoo and AOL amongst others) to this day , still sell an address list, bandwidth, and ips to spammers. In particular, MSN works with companies such as SBC and Qwest and will "borrow" home users IP's for temp useage. Of course, the users are not currently using them, so MSN will allow spammers to appear to be the end-user. So many people here think that spam is originating from China, when in reality, it does not. It is simply given the appearence of such. Of course, the government made sure that can spam did not injure that practise.
Now, they are slipping in a backdoor for the no-call list. If you really want to have this work, then you should try to get your state to pass the same law as Colorado has. Colorado started it and it seems to work well.
Now your unlisted number, that you went ahead and put on the do-not-call list to protect yourself from callers who just selected numbers randomly, will be given to the telemarketers as a number that is fair game for them to call. Your tax maney at work.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
What the hell is going on over there? Has the entire USA become a free-for-all (big business that is) annoyfest? I'm on an European do-not-call-list and have recieved two calls in four or five years one was a mistake, that didn't help I reported them anyway.
The other was from a company I already do business with (I yelled at them anyway and moved my business to another company that don't anoy me at work). They used the pre-business loophole so I told them what my opinion was with that and talked to everyone I could reach in the company. I also reported them to the consumer ombudsman, since they are abusing their power grid monopoly in Oslo to justify pushing sales calls.
From an outside perspective, it seems like the only ones enjoying freedom in the US are big, bug business. They can trample the freedom of private citizens quite easely, it seems and bother them at will while the government drags its feet. And counts its money, I presume. We have the loophole too, but we are at least working on closing it, not opening it more.
Please let them, really, I mean how much business would they get from a "DO NOT CALL" list?
Maybe then they will realise that these people are in fact helping them not call people who won't buy their crap.
+----------------- | What is the question!
If things get really bad, just switch to cellphones. They can't call those, although for some reason they get a lot of wrong numbers.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
You make the assumption that Caller ID can be relied on. Totally invalid assumption, but, not surprising coming from somebody that's trolling /. for free ipod pyramid scams. It's a strong indication of intelligence (or lack thereof), and just how much weight to put on an opinion.
I've found a very simple solution to this problem-I use cable internet and a cell phone. It is illegal to telemarket cell phones, and I've thus far not had it happen. I get a better deal on my cell then I would on landline service anyway (same cost, give or take 2 bucks, and no cost for long distance as a bonus.)
As a side note on the spam issue, I use a "throwaway" email address for public posting. I get little spam to it even, and absolutely none to my gmail account, which is given only to friends, family, etc.
To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
Thinking about this some more, /. already has a system where good karma buys you an extra mod point at time of post. A useful addition to that, sig lines that troll for pyramid schemes like freeipod should automagically buy you a -1 troll immediately at posting.
"What do you mean no prior business relationship? You said hello. Hello is a greeting and greetings are an integral part of relationships. Now about that home mortgage..."
-- Don Carcharo
I have a better idea.. why not just leave the rules as they are, and offer an opt-in for people who are willing to recieve such calls? Oh wait, that would be nobody.
Not sure what others have experienced, but the number of telemarketing calls that I have recieved since signing up for the list, has dropped from 5-10 PER DAY to about one a week. The federal do-not-call list is one of the few really useful things that the government has done in as long as I can remember. Yes, I hear that telemarketers are rapidly losing jobs, but for some reason I just can't bring myself to care. It might have something to do with the fact that before the list, I had to shelve my answering machine, unless I wanted to come home to 20 minutes of advertising after a day of work.
I knew they'd find a way to screw it up.
There's a Starman, waiting in the sky / He'd like to come and meet us, but he hasn't got the time.
well this reminded me of the one simpsons episode with Homer's phone spamming machine. But in all seriousness, do people really think by overriding the whole not calling list really will increase their sales. This list says that the people will not purchase their stupid crap no matter how much they call so dont even bother; and yet they still think that by overriding the list that they will increase their sales. If they actually do increase sales with this, please give me the list of who bought the crap and i will go over to each of their houses and beat every one of them, then stick their face in whatever they bought, just like an untrained dog learning to be potty trained, and say, "no...". If i get a spam phone call, i will track their house down and their house will accidently light on fire. So is it really worth it to them? i dont think so...
I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes. - Catcher in the Rye
I hope these calm words will help.
--- Ban humanity.
But then, I don't waste my time with telemarketers either. Here's how the average telemarketing call to my house goes:
Me: Hello?
TM: Hello, can I speak with [horrible attempt to pronounce my name]--"
click!
Nothing personal, but I don't let them get the first sentence out. And I've noticed that I get much fewer calls than before. I suspect a refusal to listen gets noted somewhere in some database and eventually you get fewer calls as a result. Try it. Unless it involves bombing a third-world nation somewhere, you probably shouldn't rely on a government run by George W. Bush to get something like this done right.
--Rick "If it isn't broken, take it apart and find out why."
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Military recruiters are the worst. I had been expecting a phone call from a company where I was ordering something. A message was left on my answering machine around that time, asking to speak to me and leaving an 800 number, but not saying who was calling. Foolishly thinking this could possibly be a call regarding the order (from a mom&pop operation), I returned the phone call. The phone was answered by a recruiter, US Army. Miffed (they'd called recently already and I'd asked to be taken off their list), I hung up without so much as a hello. Not surprisingly, I was greeted with a return call, asking if I'd just called and hung up. I informed him that his call was unwelcome. He said it was rude to call someone and immediately hang up. I informed him that it was even more rude to leave a phone message on my machine without identifying oneself, especially since the call was unwanted.
Finally, I asked him to take me off his list and never call again. He replied that SINCE I HAD CONTACTED HIM, he could not remove me. Knowing the conversation never goes anywhere and such people have rarely been considerate of my suggestions to end the conversation, I took the initiative to hang up myself. I expect they'll call again in a few months, and the whole circus parade can begin anew. Since they are always so eager to stay on the line, perhaps I'll buy a karaoke machine for the occasion.
-- I prefer the term "karma escort."
These tactics seem to work very well on the elderly.
l _apact1.htm m
Here are a few examples:
http://seniorhealth.about.com/library/eldercare/b
and another http://aging.state.ny.us/news/letter/0109scam2.ht
Most people will just hang up, but as with email spam, it only takes a few suckers to make the whole system profitable for the scum.
The scum would really love to get a hold of phone listing so they could send out their "you have won a prize in our free give away" calls.
Cool, sounds like a great system. Hopefully the person on the other line isn't using it as well :)
-- I prefer the term "karma escort."
who get put on the list by friends and family? Grandma Miffy can't say no? Put her on the do no call list so she stops wasting her Social Security checks on junk.
Besides, with most call centers in India/Indonesia/Malaysia/etc, it becomes cost effective even with only a 1% or so return. When you're paying someone 35 cents/hr. to do phone calls, you don't need a lot of business.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
You know what would be a fantastic gadget to have? A device that you could connect between a landline wall socket and the phone and you have a nice big button on the device.
When you push that button, it would cut you off until you let go and emit a nice clean ear piercing 20Khz tone as powerfully as possible down the line.
That way when a telemarketer calls, speak softly so they listen up then press.
Sometimes I wish I was a plumber, then I'd know how to deal with other people's shit.
This provision needs to be there...otherwise, the "stretching" could go the other way to prevent Blockbuster from calling me and reminding me that Halo 2 is overdue. That's valid, and they should be allowed to do that even through we're on do-not-call. If it's not, someone will find a way to abuse it so that no commercial entity can call them legally...heh, easy way to get back at credit collectors: sue them under do-not-call and give them the money you win. This seems to me like the greater evil.
I'm not sure how "established business relationship" can be abused, since a former relationship doesn't exist anymore and shouldn't be allowed to justify calling me now. Of course, we'll have to see how the law is worded....
I'm utterly stunned that these changes are even under consideration, and at taxpayer expense!
I live currently in Sydney, Australia. I have a US VoIP phone number on NDNCL, with extra anti-marketing features, and *still* manage to receive unsolicited calls from businesses that I never authorized to make such calls. I sometimes enjoy joking with the callers, "Yes, New South Wales is really a state. I don't know why it doesn't show up on your computer. Didn't you know, Australia is part of America now?"
I believe that telephone number disclosure (some outfits demand a telephone number to conduct business) should include written opt-in consent for use of that telephone number beyond the scope of the immediate transaction.
I've often remarked how much I like 'free' local calls within the USA, as opposed to most other places in the world where each call receives a flagfall. I'm beginning now to see the benefit of a caller-pays system, at least in the case of 'business-to-consumer' calls!
with damned prerecorded message, there is no one on the other line to tell "TAKE ME OFF YOUR LIST!!". So they keep calling you.
More to the point, the telephone is a resource for which we all shell out good money, and I don't recall ever seeing anything in my contract with the phone company that says I authorize its use for telemarketing purposes. The entire telemarketing industry (and I use the term loosely because they produce nothing) completely crosses the line, period, as a parasitic, unjustified, unprincipled misuse of the national communications system. It should be illegal for that reason alone, and frankly I don't care if you are a deserving charity, or Mother Theresa herself for that matter. It is MY GODDAMN PHONE ... get the hell off it unless I said you can use it.
... they'll eventually worm their way around it or just blatantly disregard it and write off the occasional fine as a cost of doing business. I don't think we're going to win this one.
... I see it's from some company I've never heard of so I ignore it. An automated telemarketing message was left, I forget what about. Whatever. So then a minute or so later, the phone rings again. Only now, it's blocked (private) but the same message is left. Obviously they were hoping that I might pick it up the second time thinking it would be someone important. That was when I started blocking private calls. *click*.
Congress outlawed junk faxes some years ago, and it worked for a while. However, my fax server was getting about a dozen a day (five days in Cancun for only $300! Free timeshare in Florida!) 'til I moved. Fortunately they haven't found me yet, but given that this activity is already illegal I don't expect telemarketers to be any more respectful of the law
My home network has a server that handles a lot of tasks, including email, faxing and caller ID services. I have the capability to simply hang up on any unrecognized incoming calls (if the call comes in blocked or private all the other side hears is a "click*.) If you're blocking your number I presume you're someone I don't care to hear from. *click*. If the FTC neuters the DoNotCall list in this way, I'll have to configure my system to ignore any calls not on the accepted list. I would allow emergency calls to go through with a touchtone bypass code, but that alone would stop automated telemarketing.
One day I'm sitting at home and the phone rings
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Good call! The FTC will be a profitmaking branch of the government, like the patent and trademark offices. They just have to change the law so that you need to buy a permit to break the (old) law. There's no law you couldn't do that with, right up to and including murder.
Of course it has been done before elsewhere (recall "indulgences", "letters of marque", "royal companies", and lots more variations) and it could have been done here any time. It was never a good idea before, but now somehow it is. When the government is populated with crooks and shysters, it gets hard to tell who's not one.
If the call is not worth the labor of a real person to make the call, then it is not worth the labor of the consumer who must answer that call.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
OK, how many people went to the link and filled it out? How much you want to bet that that link actually is tied to a telemarketer and you have now established a business relationship with them. They now have you name and information and can proceed to make calls at all hours of the day and night.
Having been on the do not call list since the begnining I can say that it has worked very well. Where I used to get a couple of calls a day I have recevied only a hand full of calls over the last year. For those that I could get a company name or phone number I have reported them. I received a call yesterday that seems to be the new method of annoying people. The phone number is blocked and it is a recording, this case offering free travel, after giving the pitch with no mention of a company name they want you to leave your name and phone number so they can get back to you. Kind of like tele-spam (registered trademark pending on the term tele-spam). Well hopefully I cost them some time since I tried my best to fill up as much tape/disk as possible telling them just what I thought about them calling someone on the do not call list. Hopefully it consumed a fair amount of time as they had other people listen to the message I left. Slow them down from processing any morons that actually left their information.
Of course, I got thrown in the 'endless hold for angry customers' (Verified on the newsgroups). After five times trying to get ahold of someone who could fix this ever increasing volume of calls, I lost it and started a barrage of calls using 5 lines and an autodialer. I would get to just before where an operator picked up, and put them on hold, then move to the next line. I got amazingly good at it, and picked up the line on some telemarketing stragglers screaming, "WHO IS THIS!?!".
I kept this up for an hour, which I am pretty sure fucked up their profit margin on that day.
Still more calls a few days later - I guess they thought I wasn't serious. Another polite request to talk to the manager, and a dump into endless hold.
Operation Eternal Freedom went into effect again, and this time I feigned an old lady's voice, "I'm trying to reach my son, -insert name here-", on every seventh call. The others went right to hold, until they found no one on the line and hung up. Of course, I was ready with an autodialed response. 45 minutes (while waiting for a backup to complete) later, I called it a day.
Third time, three 45 minute sessions - I got where I could do it one handed on speakerphone, and get some real work done.
No more calls after that.
Did they get my message? I left about 2,463.
I've used this system before, and if you have the pager or cell number of those you want to call, then it works fine.
The annoying part is the emergency phonecalls that might come from something related to my kids. A school probably doesn't know I keep my ringer off and to call my pager first, and with a 911 extension so I know it's not just some number I don't recognize. Since the DNC list, I've been able to turn the ringer back on, and it's been nice.
My son is getting phone calls now, and I doubt his 1st grade friends would want to page his dad to talk to him, so this is a good thing, and I'd hate telemarketers to turn my phone back into my inbox.
I am, and always will be, an idiot. Karma: Coma (mostly effected by
Target was offering 'free' wakeup calls for people on the the Day after Thanksgiving. I wonder if this creates a "prior business relationship?"
I bet it does.
I got sick of FAX spam at work, especially since most of them came from the same Canadian company I couldn't contact directly. They left only a (toll-free) removal number.
:)
The first time, I tried it. I think they stopped for all of a month.
Once they restarted, I decided to make us unprofitable to FAX. I called their toll-free removal number, and when asked to confirm that I had entered the correct number, I would press "2" for no, starting the whole process over again. Then I automated this with just the autodialer on the phone. It got to the point that when I got through (which wasn't often), the autodialer could hold their line open for upwards of an hour. To prevent this from tying up the main phone line, I tapped the FAX line so that it now was usable on one office phone (in addition to the FAX) only -- mine. Once the legitimate FAXes stopped at 5 pm, but I still had hours to kill before the day's paperwork arrived, I'd set the autodialer to work. All I had to do was hit a button if the phone actually got through to the removal service. Having access to the FAX line also came in handy at other times, but that was just a nice side effect of the need to autodial.
Since we had a toll-free line ourselves, I knew they were probably paying about 7 or 8 cents a minute for their incoming calls. I wanted to cost them ten dollars a day, but I just couldn't get through all that often as the line was almost always busy (big surprise).
Then I got the bright idea to subject one of our contractors (who NEVER paid on time, or paid less than was billed) to a little annoyance of their own, so I had the autodialer helpfully "remove" them instead of ourselves. This part at least I know to have worked, their level of Canadian FAX spam tripled instantly. It didn't get us any of the owed money, but it still felt nice.
Mal-2
How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.