Slashdot Mirror
Beating Roulette With Computers & Lasers
MeerCat writes "The BBC are reporting that a group of gamblers who won more than £1m at the Ritz Casino by using laser technology have been told by police they can keep their winnings.
A laser scanner linked to a computer was allegedly used to gauge numbers likely to come up on the roulette wheel.
Of course this could be Labour spin to try and get people excited about the idea of cheating at mega casinos"
Unless they were using a laser to shoot the ball into the number they wanted, there's nothing at all illegal about this in the U.S., and I'm heartened to read the U.K. either.
"No more bets... And the number is 7... ZAP! I mean 19... ZAP! I mean 22... ZAP! I mean 13... ZAP! I mean 3... The winner is 3! You win again."
I'm a big tall mofo.
Roulette Scam
Amazing that they did get to keep the cash, at least slashdot kept up on a story for once.
As an American living in the U.K. I can say that Britain's perception of their gambling is distorted. Sure poker's big in the U.S., and the last few decades have had a dramatic increase in casinos but, the U.K. seems to think that the rest of the world's addicted to gambling and they're responsible. Blair's mega-casinos; case in point.
The truth is there are slots machines in tons of roadside stops, sports betting shops (ladbrokes, etc) on busy corners, and national lottery ads [adverts] pervasive on t.v. America, (nevada aside) treats gambling much more as a kind of entertainment; in the U.K. it's more about gambling.
I don't doubt there're gambling problems across most cultures, just, I see very little legitimate entertainment in roadside slot machines. It seems to be preying on those with problems.
check my old comment:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=101
"
Actually their said one beutyful girl was from Hungary with two serb guys. They said they used a mobile-shaped laser-scanning device, but they don't know if it is prohibited.
http://index.hu/tech/tudomany/ritz040323/
in hungarian.
Later they said, that this device cannot exist, as such a device would be least a pc large and needs a calibration of some hours and at least NASA technique to make it.
So at last, they said, that there are a number of people who actually can figure out what is the winning number from the spinning of the wheel by her own eye.
The article also mentions, that after all, they don't really need to now the EXACT target of the ball, if they can close out 2 numbers, they can earn an average of 3% per round.
So anyway, it's a weird weird story with SCI-FI elements..."
New articles, like
http://index.hu/politika/bulvar/kaszcs04120
say, they had a laser-scanner build in a phone, the results were sent back to a bigger computer for calculations, finally the results arrive on the phone, play & profit.
No
The famous MIT story is that teams didn't use any kinds of computers. You don't need to use computers to beat blackjack either. But they did get kicked out of casinos since they're private property and they dont like cardcounting. The fact it's legal is irrelevant.
But until they rewrite the rules, are we allowed to take the lab equipment (with trypods, industrial laser sources, generators and the home-brew linux-cluster for calculations) to a casino with the
white coat stuff and funny glasses?
Casino marketing manager:
"There is a portion of the population that think that casinos are stupid waste of time because the odds say that the players CAN'T win.
"Well... time to put a stop to that! Let's tell these smarties that very smart people that study the roulette wheel a lot can predict where the ball will land with some kind of accuracy. We'll suggest that people can tilt the odds in their favor! Haha!
"But we all know that the steps to winning are:
1. Get out casino mentioned in the news and in faux "cheating vegas" documentaries.
2. Encourage these smarties to get themselves to the casino and play some roulette. Those smarties will think they are "honing their predictive capabilities."
3. Profit!
Heck, it worked for Blackjack... let's get them into roulette too!
Yeah, but then you have the problem of the "ball" jumping up and biting into some poor guy's head. The next thing you know you've got a casino full of zombies running around and eating the cocktail waitresses - and have you ever tried to bludgeon a zombie with a croupier's rake? It's no crowbar, that's for damned sure.
Oh... wait.
"Hermit" crab?
Never mind...
see
The Eudaemonic Pie
or "The Newtonian Casino" as the UK print was called
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Casino rules != The Law
They probably did break casino rules, and they have almost certainly been banned from going back. But, that doesn't mean they broke the law.
---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"
The plus side of MIT's operation was that they worked as a team. Teams are much harder to spot by the casino staff than a single card-counter, so they managed to make a lot before being spotted. Wired's story.
Sounds like a good way to get yourself banned from every Casino on earth. The house ALWAYS wins, just ask the MIT blackjack team.
Who's leg do I have to hump to get a dry martini around here?
funny how casino rules aren't the law, but mpaa/riaa/gnaa says something and it somehow becomes the law.
oh, america.
Roland Piquepaille and slashd
Don't know about the UK, but American casinos won't need anything rewritten: the courts have long since held that a casino can ban anyone it sees fit. That would include people waving lasers.
rj
It was in a cell phone
And some theory behind it from the previous slashdot article.
If it is possible to win by detecting non-randomness then the wheel, or the process for using it, is bent.
My main objection to casinos is not that they provide a place for gambling - people will do this, and it is probably better that they do this in a way subject to some sort of regulation - but that reported incidents suggest they do not run fair games, and that the stacking of the odds on e.g. fruit machines is probably intended to fuel gambling addiction. It's like the alcohol industry producing alcoholic fruit drinks to get kids hooked, or just about any strategy of the tobacco industry. If the casino gets caught by someone using statistical analysis, the law should not protect them from their own dishonesty.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
Sorry, BS.
It's a game of chance, yes, however, saying "it's not fair to those not similarly equipped" is irrelevant. You are not competing against other players at the table in any way. You winning or not has no effect on their ability to play, or to win. You are competing against the casino.
The "spirit" of the game is guessing what's going to come up next based on the information available to you and everyone else at the table. If I am smarter than the guy next to me, is that an unfair advantage? If I count cards at blackjack, is that "unfair"? (No, it's not, but will likely get me asked to not play blackjack anymore at that particular casino)
This is not about fairness or anyhting like that, it's purely about profit. Odds are in favor of the house. This device shifts the odds in favor of the players, therefore, the casinos cannot afford to operate the game if these devices are permitted on the premesis. Plain and simple. The same reason they do not allow card counters to play blackjack for too long, becuase they would continuously lose money.
If there was no law on the books against this, then rightly so they should walk away with the money. The casino should do more to protect itself from this.
This approach to beating roulette was first approached back in the 1980s. The Eudaemonic Pie is a classic hacker tale and should not be missed if you can find a copy.
they would let me keep my slot machine winnings I got with that HERF gun ....
---- "Logoff! That cookie shit makes me nervous!" - A. Soprano
The roulette shoe computer is here.. UCSC, MIT ... that's near enough for government work.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
but stories about how "the only time I played I put in $2 and made $20" help fuel that gambling addiction.
It's the few people who win at casinos that give the rest hope.
I'm banned from Soaring Eagle Casino and Resort for card counting. Just basic deck-weighting, nothing fancy. Usually if they think you're card counting, they offer you free drinks. They always watch gamblers who aren't drinking (espeically if the drinks are comp) extra closely, and they will at the very least take away your notes or calculator, if not ask you to leave.
Was it fair? No. But it's theirs now.
Goo goo g'joob.
One should also note that Soaring Eagle Casino and Resort is notorious for not paying out much as they should for their slot machines. I wouldn't be suprised if they ask anyone trying to get a leg up to leave.
Even though they are fined by the feds for not paying out they just eat the fines and come out on top anyways.
I spent a part of my collegiate career at that casino since it was right down the road
--J
Of course this could be Labour spin...
Spin. Roulette. Heh.
THis is what happens whe you dont pay mathematicians or engineers enough. THey go and do something insane, and everyone else doesnt know what to make of it, heheheh. Seriously though, developing that kind of program - to calculate the precise number of rotations on a spinning wheel - is the perfect example of high level engineering. I've done many questions like that only instead of Gambling wheels, it was vehicle wheels. Once you know the accelleration and the velocity at time 0, you just use standard energy equations. If you want to get fancy with your program you could figure out the oil used and the shaft used, and add in the known values for friction, etc (all this is available in charts/tables). THen all you need is the time for one full rotation, the size of the wheel and its weight (initial conditions) which you could find after two test runs with the laser velocity/accelleration finder. After that, you could make, say, a device that all you do is click a button when it starts spinning, click again after half a rotation or a full rotation, then it displays the winning number on a screen. Then, if you have an electrical engineer around, you could make into its own embedded device with a screen, about the size of a watch. Voila - El Cheaterwatch. The best thing since the Black Box. Who needs the ability to make free phone calls when you can win millions of dollars gambling, booyah.
So what's next, oh wise British lawmakers? Marking cards on Carribean Draw legal? Pre-arranging with the dealer to load a baccarat shoe with front-faces legal? Soft-spinning a Sicbo wheel legal? Collusion in poker legal?
These are cheaters, plain and simple. Why would we think them any different?
Do not try this (using laser pointers that is... ) with the Russian "variety" of Roulette. While its sure to improve your aim and your chances of "winning" you might find yourself losing out on life a bit!
It has to find and register the wheel, which is an object of known form. Lane Hawk could do this. It then has to find and track the ball, which is not too hard (try the Lucas-Kanade feature tracker in OpenCV) and extract position and velocity. Given that information, prediction is possible.
Now that 3D game capability is going into camera phones, there's enough processing power in phones to consider this. It can all be done with passive sensors. You don't need lasers.
Umm...You may think that math precludes gambling, but I believe that you'll find many of the more 'serious' gamblers are people well-versed in math, who beleive that their deep ability to quickly calculate their momentary odds provides them an advantage. One of my friends has a masters in mathematics from a highly prestigious university, and is the most dedicated gambler I personally know.
If you don't have an intuitive knowledge of odds calculations, you will likely do poorly at poker, because 'knowing' what your opponents could have, and luring them into betting when *you* know they have a much lower chance of winning than you is the best path to winning.
Laugh while you can, monkey-boy!
I have been dealing most of the house games (Roulette, Blackjack, Carribean, 3 Card poker,..) now, out in a St. Louis, MO, for about 6 monthes. I am on a "make money for a new degree" detour. The midwest hasn't been to kind lately.
A wheel dealer with about 1-2 years experience, is generally good enough to hit quadrants (groups of 9 #'s) and sectors (groups of 6 #'s). The casino I work for wants about a spin every 90 seconds under a full table (12 players). If you are a dealing during busy hours all the time (evenings) that is still 1200 spins a week.
I know of 2 dealers, each with about 10 years of experience, that are capable of hitting numbers about 1/3 times.
Remember to tip your dealer. We are more than happpy to give away the casino's money if you help us too.
If you are cheap asshole, don't be surprised when they change out dealers on you. All of a sudden your numbers stop hitting, (anything you play will stop hitting).
Interesting note, The board ( the display of the numbers that have come up in the last 10-15 spins) is ranked the biggest improvement in gambling technology in 20 years by most casinoes.
"Oh, number is going to hit next"
Suckers love flashing, colorful lights. (Slots fall here too)
The roulette table has no memory, each spin is a new event.
Oh, the stories I could tell after only 6 monthes, I really have a bad out look on the human race as whole from these experiences.
It is fun to play a game that you are statically stacked to win for 8 hours a day! If I don't like you , I take your money.
May I please have my frontal lobotomy if I bring back the ashtrays?
I think you may have misunderstood his comment.
Many casinos run games like poker, where you play against the other *players*, not the house. The house still wins, because they take a rake off the top. The players (in aggregate) still lose, because the house ends up with more money than it started with...
However, any individual player can consistently win, and Vegas doesn't care - he's taking money from other players, not the house.
(That said, there are some slots that give >100% return. Just not many.)