The Illiteracy of Corporate American E-Mail

Dave writes "There is a pretty amusing/sad article about functional illiteracy when it comes to professional e-mails. Some of the samples are just ridiculous."

Comments

How they become?

[fembots]

How did these employees get into the company door in the first place? Didn't they have to write some sort of CV that their employers can understand? Or are they gradually getting worse in the corporate/email environment?

P.S. This are one of the Slashdot articles that I am so worrifiedably scared to be picked at by one of these Spelling/Grandma Nazis.

Re:How they become?

[eln]

A lot of people usually get a lot of help writing their resumes. Once they get into the workforce, there is a prevailing myth among the plebes that spelling and grammar don't matter, as long as the message is right. However, this ignores the fact that bad spelling and grammar can severely impact the coherency of any message, as well as hurting the credibility of the author.

There have been several times when advertising departments at places I've worked have let huge glossies and other very visible ads get all the way through printing with major spelling and grammatical errors. How can anyone take a company seriously if it looks like everyone at that company is illiterate?

Re:How they become?

[mordors9]

I work for a fairly large corporation and supervise a group of people. I used to think the spelling mistakes were just typing errors, that all of the grammatical mistakes and punctuation errors were just laziness. Don't get me wrong, I mistype words occasionally and I certainly do not always use perfect grammar. But, I see an awful lot of emails and reports that are nearly incomprehensible. I have also come to the conclusion that an awful lot of people really do not know how to spell or have a basic understanding of grammar. I guess further evidence that our public education system is failing miserably.

Re:How they become?

[Repton]

A man rides into a new town, and needs to get his CV proofread. The town has only two CV proofreaders. So he gets copies of their CVs to help him decide whom to go to. One of the CVs is beautifully presented, with impeccable spelling and grammar and a clear, logical layout. The other is messy, confused, and poorly spelt. There are many obvious grammatical mistakes.

Which proofreader does the man go to, and why?

Re:How they become?

[swb]

Many resumes aren't actually "read" for grammatical correctness, they're scanned for keywords either electronically or by people. Even when someone tries to read them, most resume books say "short and sweet" which precludes a lot of paragraph-type writing. Furthermore, the people reading them are often as weak at writing skills as the submitters, so any standard being applied is low to begin with.

And then there are the people who have professional services do their resumes, CVs and cover letters -- either once for manual submission, or as part of a headhunter type operation where fixing their clients weaknesses is part of the job.

And let's face it, when YOU were in college, what was the general intellectual orientation of most business/marketing school types, anyway? I found they nearly all fit the stereotype -- frat/sorority members with more interest in their personal appearance and social standing. Grades (and not necessarily *learning*) merely being important if they had some kind of status-oriented grad school plans or a cash payback plan from Mom and Dad for not flunking out.

To be fair, there were people that fit that description who were real smart, too, but most of them really weren't. College was something they were expected to do, like wear Polo-brand clothes, and join the right Greek house, and get a corporate job.

Is it any surprise that once this anti-intellectual group is in a position where they have to represent their ideas in writing that they fall apart? I think half the problem with them isn't just a lack of writing skills, it's also the quality of the ideas. It's hard to write well about a bad idea.

Re:How they become?

[Anonymous Coward]

What exectly is a constant-velocity proofreader?

Re:How they become?

[Frymaster]

prolly?

hm. makes me think there should be a study on the illiteracy of slashdot posts.

Re:How they become?

[RealAlaskan]

... bad spelling and grammar can severely impact the coherency of any message, as well as hurting the credibility of the author.

When I was teaching econ, I several times made the mistake of setting an essay test. It showed that the American students couldn't write. When I marked them down for incomprehensiblity, they were shocked! ``You should grade the econ, not the grammer.'' they said. Unfortunately, the grammer and organization was bad enough that there wasn't any coherent content to grade.

Some of them did know the material, but it doesn't matter what you know, if you can't communicate it clearly to others. If you can't communicate, you might as well know nothing, because that's what everyone will assume.

By contrast, some students for whom English was a second language had grammer problems, but their writing was coherent enough that I could figure out what they meant.

Re:How they become?

[Pr0Hak]

let me fill in the blank: You send a message at noon to someone who is twelve hours ahead of you. They get the message at midnight. They come in to work at 8:00 AM their time, and read your message. They send a response, but it is already 8:00 PM your time, so you don't see the message for another 12 hours when you come in to work the next day at 8:00 AM.

Having to go through multiple iterations of the message to make sure your point is clearly presented can slow things down significantly.

Re:How they become?

[Finuvir]

Sloppy writing implies carelessness at best, ineptitude at worst. It's not okay to write badly in a business setting; at least not in inter-business communication.

Re:How they become?

[glitch!]

1. You should have said: "Her problem is that she forgets to proofread."
2. It is "A lot", not "Alot".
3. "Disinterested" means one doesn't have a conflict of interest. You should have used "uninterested".
4. It is "justified", not "justificated".
5. It is "disenfranchised", not "disenfrenchfried", unless someone took away their French fries.


Then again, maybe these were intentional and slashdot just removed the <GWB> and </GWB> tags.

Re:How they become?

[Winkhorst]

A lot of this not-ending-a-sentence-with-a-preposition and not-starting-a-sentence-with-a-conjunction nonsense goes back to a failed 17th Century attempt to fashion English grammar after that of Latin. For every one of these rules there is a perfectly correct example from before the period of False Latinization. This silliness must be distinguished from true grammatical errors involving constructions that make it difficult or impossible to understand what the writer is trying to say. That is the key point here. Language is about communication. If it doesn't communicate well, it is BAD language.

Re:How they become?

[asr_man]

...bad spelling and grammar can severely impact the coherency of any message, as well as hurting the credibility of the author.

"Hurting" above is incorrect. To agree with "impact" it should be "hurt":

Bad spelling and grammar can (do two things...#1:) severely impact...(and #2:) hurt...

But since this forum doesn't support editing, we'll forgive you.

The Grammar Nazis

Re:How they become?

[Moofie]

I think the problem with American schools is related to the fact that they hire teachers that overgeneralize.

Re:How they become?

[tomhudson]

Great, so we can repeatedly get the same (but not necessarily correct) result every time with very little variance.

Ah, grasshopper, now you understand the value of ISO 9001 certification.

Re:How they become?

[tylernt]

It seems like I see/hear 'prolly' frequently in British media, so maybe it's a perfectly normal slang term there?

Re:How they become?

[Martin Blank]

How you speak -- and write -- affects others' perceptions of you. When you write a report or an e-mail, you don't always know who will be reading it along the way. particularly in larger organizations. The county government for which I work has 16,000 employees, 14,000 of them with e-mail accounts. I see e-mails from other IT departments on a fairly routine basis, and some of them are simply painful to read. They may have aced their CCIE exam, but if I don't already know them then I may not take them to be so bright if they don't know basic grammar like where to capitalize and where to put periods and commas (overuse of which are probably the most common non-spelling error I see). Pretty much everyone is using Outlook 2002 or 2003, and the vast majority of them are using Word as their e-mail editor, so they really have little excuse as the checks are turned on by default.

I've offered to buy a couple of grammar manuals for the department, but no one seems to be interested, and no one with purchasing power will authorize it through normal channels.

Re:How they become?

[Flower]

but the intended recipient still understands the message then who cares?

Everybody should care because the intended recipient may not be the only recipient as a matter is discussed. My emails get forwarded and (b)cc:'d to others all the time and I receive similiar correspondance every day. Concise, understandable emails mean I don't have to repeat myself.

They also stand the test of time. Ever have an email come up a few months or a year later and have to address it? Something well composed is easier to explain than a choppy stream of consciousness.

Sure, its only 20 seconds, but the only point in editing your message is to conform to implied social norms - an objective that has nothing to do with getting the job done. Thankfully those silly social norms have not yet been applied to emails yet.

This shows such a lack of business savvy and professionalism it is actually depressing. You can't even invest half a minute into reviewing your work and making sure it's presentable because in your limited view it has nothing to do with your actual job. The simple fact is that in any organization you don't exist in a vacuum and being able to effectively communicate is a primary job function not some "silly social norm." Save those anarchist tendencies for IRC and /. Whether it is "fair" or not, in a business environment consistently poor writing is going to get you labeled as stupid and inept. The big problem with this is the judgement will many times come from upper management due to the simple fact that your email is the primary work product they see.

Soft skills count and as the job market gets tighter those skills will be the ones that differentiate you from the rest of the pack. It is actually called reality and not "silly social norm."

Re:How they become?

[cduffy]

On the other hand, if the intended recipient is "careless", and by "careless" you really mean lazy or too busy to write in complete sentences, but the intended recipient still understands the message then who cares?

The recipient, for one.

I may be able to interpret poorly written English, but that's not to say it's enjoyable. Presentation errors not only make the individual committing them look bad, but also take away focus from the actual content.

I expect people communicating with me in a business context to make a reasonable effort to communicate clearly in much the same way that I would be offended if a coworker chose to give me messages scribbled in sloppily written crayon: Poor presentation distracts from the content. The scribbled memo would needlessly require extra time to read and interpret; likewise do poorly spelled messages.

Another aspect that falls out of the above is one of respect. Since comprehending sloppily-written messages takes more time and effort, writing well is nothing less than displaying respect for the value of the time of one's readers, whereas writing poorly is stating that your time and effort is more valuable than that of the individual to whom you send your message. I make a serious effort to do this when writing material for others' consumption; consequently, I find it only reasonable for others to respond in kind.

Thankfully those silly social norms have not yet been applied to emails yet.

They should and do. People who send poorly written email (particularly mass mailings) are genuinely and rightly offensive, for all the reasons above.

Re:How they become?

[Phroggy]

Once they get into the workforce, there is a prevailing myth among the plebes that spelling and grammar don't matter, as long as the message is right.

This myth prevails because it's what students are taught in school.

Re:How they become?

[1u3hr]

why should you waste an extra 20 seconds checking your grammar?

1) So the recipient doesn't have to spend 20 seconds trying to work out what your meant, or wasting both his and your time by replying asking for a clarification.
2) So people don't think you're a moron.
3) So people outside the company don't think you're all morons (if the message is forwarded, as often happens, sometimes inadvertently).

Anything you write, anywhere, can come back to haunt you.

Re:How they become?

[mcrbids]

...and where to put periods and commas (overuse of which are probably the most common non-spelling error I see)...

I, for one, welcome, to the full extent possible, our new, lovely, comma, overlords!

Re:How they become?

[DrMaurer]

Here's why correctness is important:

You work in a purchasing department, can you tell me what this person wanted?

"Onetwenty foot lenth of steel, 1/2 in thk, 3 in angle."

Here, we're not so much concerned about the spelling. Is this a twenty foot length of steel? Or is it a 120 length of steel? Either one could be wrong, (though one is far more likely than the other) so you have to call for clarification, which takes time, and instead of processing the purchase, you have to call this chap on the radio, phone, and/or e-mail and wait for him to get back, and god-forbid if it's a hot project, and he's now on vacation or hit by a beer truck. Time, by the cliched equasion, equals currancy, aka, business.

This is just metal, simple metal, hunks of steel, imagine something more complicated. Something electronic? Something computer-related? Imagine the confusion of a common omission of the final comma in a list, exemplified by this famous line:

"My parents, God and Ayn Rand."

Put a comma in between "God" and "And" and it's slightly more clear it's a list. Unless that person is claiming divine lineage or a chunk of an Objectivist trust fund . . .

Okay, obviously, that's a purchase, we hope that person is specific as they are conveying a need (though I can tell you that often those folks expect you to know what they want). Critical stuff. So, what about e-mail then? What about normal stuff?

People judge you, rightly or wrongly, by the words that you use. Beyond the base level technical things, it's a game, where even ORDER on the TO: line can have something to do with how the item is read. ("Can" does not equal always, by the way.) Stupid, perhaps, but it is so.

And if takes you 20 minutes to check your grammar for anything of normal length, you haven't internalized the rules, and thusly are inefficient. It's not about perfect grammar, either; hyper-correctness is, in itself, totally obnoxious and useless and paralyzing. (I know I misspelled a few things in here, a few grammar gaffaws, but I hope I'm clear enough.)

I agree, if you're clear and everything is good, then great. You needn't be able to diagram the perfect sentance, but you should be able to state your goal clearly; and if anyone comes back with questions, or, worse, doesn't ask you the questions they have, then your language has failed, or maybe the person is an idiot.

People you may or may not ever meet make decisions based on your communication. Treat it as such.

In the interests of full disclosure: my Masters Degree is going to be in Rhetoric and Professional Writing. Waste of time for some, I imagine, but I think it's interesting. Takes all kinds, I guess.

Re:How they become?

[Anonymous Coward]

And why not? If you get the point across to your coworkers, why should you waste an extra 20 seconds checking your grammar? Sure, its only 20 seconds, but the only point in editing your message is to conform to implied social norms - an objective that has nothing to do with getting the job done. Thankfully those silly social norms have not yet been applied to emails yet.

fuckin a dude!@ who care abuot chikign granner and slpeking anuwsy?? i mesn shit if'n pipul unerstn yo hoo car wut ti look like?

Get my point?

Re:How they become?

[Jucius Maximus]

"why should you waste an extra 20 seconds checking your grammar?"

"2) So people don't think you're a moron."

Exactly! In 2002, I wrote this one short e-mail to the IT security people correcting them on some small thing they put on the company intranet regarding the dangers of e-mail attachments. There was a small but obvious typo in the message that made it look like I had made a grammar error.

To my surprise, three weeks later my e-mail was printed in the company newsletter being distributed to 10,000 people, with a note congratulating me on helping to increase the computer networks' security. My typo was there for all to conclude that I was a grammar-ignorant idiot.

Moral of the story: You never know who will read what you write, even if it is an internal company e-mail. Spending that 20 seconds to check your grammar/spelling/etc is worthwhile. You never know what small thing might come back and bite you in the butt later on.

Conspicuously...

[MoxCamel]

This wasn't posted by CmdrTaco. I'm just saying.

Mox

All because of vatican 2

[yorkpaddy]

See what happens when you stop saying mass in Latin.

Re:I'd be happy

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it is not.

If people could just learn to write their replies BELOW what they're quoting. Top posting is just wrong.

My personal favorite

[Anonymous Crowhead]

The subject line email:

Subject: COULD YOU SEND ME THAT MEMO
Body: (empty)

In case it's slashdotted:

[Anonymous Coward]

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Re:In case it's slashdotted:

[interiot]

holy, how'd you get that past the slashdot filter?

Very Inprofesional

[Lieutenant_Dan]

I find it lidicrous how people making 100000$ or more a year, just canot spell or at least use the spelchecker.

It's a disgracement.

Re:Very Inprofesional

[porkUpine]

I wish I could mod your post +1 (Sad but True). Our CFO sends out company wide emails that make no sense at all. I often wonder how she was able to (lie/cheat/steal) her way into that position. It is embarrassing when the CFO of a 1+Billion dollar a year company cannot tell the difference between patience/patients or capitol/capital. Now, I'm not perfect... but I also don't send out company wide email very often. When I do have to send out email to others in the company I do this old fashioned thing called "Proof-reading". *sigh* (sad but true)

i m a l337 riter!

[bennomatic]

People just don't care anymore, do they? Capitalization, their-they're-there, you're-your, mixing tenses, dangling modifiers, unclear use of pronouns and run-on sentences are just a few of the most common problems. My wife has finally given me the validation I need in that she has me look over official correspondence she writes because I am, in her words, the grammar police.

My spelling's pretty good, too, but not perfect, so no flames please!

Re:i m a l337 riter!

[syle]

Message boards and AIM are grammar death. I was sitting next to a 40 year old business man on a flight a couple weeks ago who was componsing email on a laptop. "Cindy, can u pls send this to Mark?? thx"

The signature appended to every message said his name, company, and job title: "CEO."

Re:i m a l337 riter!

[wfberg]

Another one of my pet peeves that is when people write enormously long sentences that run over the entire width of my screen and that have a lot of subclauses even though the same message, that might actually have held my interest if it were presented more succinctly, could have been split up in multiple shorter sentences that are easier to understand.

Re:i m a l337 riter!

[EvanED]

After careful consideration of your writing preferences, the new /. book recommending software has concluded that you might enjoy Intruder in the Dust, by William Faulkner.

Sad but true.

[slusich]

Far too many professionals simply cannot manage to type out a readable email. People with college degrees in high paying jobs should have some degree of competency with the English language. I have to wonder if this has less to do with the format of email and more to do with the disappearance of secretaries.

Re:Sad but true.

[Incongruity]

I have to wonder if this has less to do with the format of email and more to do with the disappearance of secretaries.

That's a good point. Much like the web allows almost anyone to publish just about whatever they want, it seems that technology has also allowed every idiot to [and those of us who just play idiots in print =) ] to escape the watchful eyes of those more skilled at proper correspondence. Sometimes lowering the barriers to entry (as technology such as email and the internet do) do more than just let more people get in on it -- it also lets more crap in with all the good.

Illiterate? Or just unprofessional?

[beeplet]

It seems like there are two separate possible problems here: people are coming into a company without the writing skills they need, and/or employees are not treating email communication with the same professionalism as other company documents.

For the first problem, either a) don't hire people who can't write, or b) provide on-the job training to bring writing skills up to an acceptable level.

For the second, I think the company needs to make a clear set of standards for both internal and external communication, and enforce them. External communication - to customers, etc. - is particularly important. Anything as badly written as those examples would be deleted from my inbox before I got to the end of the first sentence.

I used to work as a technical writer for a large company, and they kept us busy. It's fine to hire engineers who are good at what they do, even if they don't have great writing skills - as log as you also hire someone to decipher and rewrite everything that comes out of the engineering dept.

PS. I respectfully submit that the headline should read either "The illegibility of email" or "The illiteracy of corporate america"... I might try to make my email literary, but not literate (and my slashdot posts are probably neither...) :)

Re:Illiterate? Or just unprofessional?

[Soko]

I used to work as a technical writer for a large company, and they kept us busy. It's fine to hire engineers who are good at what they do, even if they don't have great writing skills - as log as you also hire someone to decipher and rewrite everything that comes out of the engineering dept.

IMHO, if an engineer is imprecise in his language, in any medium, he will be imprecise in other more important areas. This is especially true for a software engineer/developer/code monkey since C, Java, Perl and Python are but different languages where you are trying to speak to a machine, not a human. A Technical Writer shouldn't have to do much more than parse the comments in the code, provide helpful diagrams and give a higher level view of how to use the software. Using precise, thought out language in all your communications means that precision will spill over into your code. As an example, here you are espousing that you just need someone like yourself - a communications expert - to correct the errors of others and you make a simple spelling mistake (don't have great writing skills - as log as you also hire someone to) which gives your credibility a hit. Allowing yourself the luxury of a native English speaker being able to over-look that error and still unuderstand you is what starts the downward spiral.

As far as the article goes, this is the issue - people let thier communications skills atrophy. They take it for granted others are able to correct thier 'misteaks'[1] or will reply back with a "Hunh?", and the idea can eventually be parsed out of the conversation. It's a question of discipline, of placing a real value of your communications ability and keeping that ability at its peak.

I read over every e-mail I before I click send and ask "Do I sound lucid, professional and do I actually communicate my idea well"? It takes a bit longer to do, but it also cuts down on mis-communication.

Soko
[1] Taken from that old poster that says "Know Misteaks Aloud!"

Spelling And Grammar Still Apply

[A Red Pikmin]

For some reason I've never understood, a lot of people seem to think that because they write electronically, they don't have to spell correctly or use proper grammar. And even if they are naturally bad at such things, it's not like most e-mail clients lack spelling and/or grammar checks. I have no idea why people do this; especially in a situation like this where the writing is more formal and precise. Although for myself, I've conformed to more or less standard writing form in electronic communications.

Learn Them Some Grammar

[Ctrl Alt De1337]

It sounds like there are a lot of people who could use some lessons from Strong Bad's Rhythm and Grammar. Though there's a helpful song near the beginning, wait until the end and click on the arm then the CD a few times.

Spell Czech

[Easy2RememberNick]

Eye halve a spelling chequer. It came with my pea sea.
It plainly marques four my revue miss steaks eye kin knot sea.

Eye strike a key and type a word and weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write. It shows me strait a weigh.

As soon as a mist ache is maid. It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite. Its rarely ever wrong.

Eye have run this poem threw it. I am shore your pleased two no.
Its letter perfect in it's weight. My chequer tolled me sew.

Sauce Unknown

(Reader's Digest.)

It will only get worse.

[RobTheJedi]

As more and more people are using phones with SMS/Text messaging capability, their spelling and punctuation will only get worse. Not to mention all the cryptic acronyms. My spelling and grammar are not the greatest, but I married an English major to compensate.

When corporate email goes bad

[Himring]

I got this email from our training supervisor one day. He's a cool guy and we joke a lot. His email was like, "how's it going?" And I wrote back, "my ovaries hurt" (I'mma guy btw), and then he writes back, "50 people in the training room just read that.... [he had his desktop pulled up on the big screen]." He was training on email that day.

Erm, I'mma not sure if that was grammatically correct r not....

Holy crap!

[wolfemi1]

Corporate American e-mail can't read?

1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d

[Triumph The Insult C]

s0? irc rul3z. ema!l iz 4 lam3rz n3way

Obligory quote

[DragonPup]

"Me fail english? That unpossible!"

Re:Not too suprising

[boringgit]

You are too hard on yourselves.

Trust me, I am British. "Yank Bashing" is something of a national sport since the empire fell apart ;)

Bad email is not in any way an America only thing (neither are falling standards in education!). I have seen emails sent to customers which make me cringe. I know people for whom English is a 4th of 5th language who can compose better emails than some born and bred Brits.

A letter would be passed to a workmate to "have a quick look at", or typed by a secretary. Email is seen as being in some way less important. Wrongly so!

Re:Have they ever heard of English as a 2nd langua

[Ahnteis]

Newsflash: In corporate AMERICA, English is required learning.

Newsflash 2: People who speak English as a second language are often better at correct grammar then native English-speakers.

Re:Not too suprising

[calibanDNS]

More amusingly, that's an apostrophe, not a "commar"...

ESL musings

[MarcoAtWork]

Most people who learn English as a second language tend to have a very good command of its written form; this is because in most schools abroad English is taught following a grammar-first/speech-later approach.

My spoken English, and especially my understanding of it, has improved by leaps and bounds since I started living in an English speaking country (Canada). I wish I could say the same about my writing: due to being constantly exposed to your/you're and similar constructs, I feel its quality has definitely decreased.

Re:ESL musings

[multipartmixed]

> due to being constantly exposed to your/you're and similar constructs,
> I feel its quality has definitely decreased.

When proof reading, mentally expand all contractions (e.g. you're becomes you are), replace there with here, and replace your with his. If the sentence still makes sense, you're good to go.

I use the same types of tricks in french, expanding "a" to "avoir" and seeing if it changes the sense of the sentence (although that particular trick DOES mean you're proofing with mentally incorrect grammar).

Too much L33T!

[Excen]

I think R2-D2 just crapped a rainbow in my brain!

(With apologies to any Sealab fans out there)

Re:I filtered out all the crap

[cephyn]

Wow, there was a Welsh version of the site?

Re:I'd be happy

[cain]

If people could just learn to I prefer replying
write their replies BELOW on the SIDE of
what they're quoting. what I am quoting, myself.
Top posting is just wrong. Side posting r00ls, w00t!!

What scares me

[mindstrm]

is that I can read that quite fluently.

Huh?

[Wrexen]

I'm pretty sure he meant rediculous, unless the hundreds of idiots posting on the internet every day are spelling it wrong too. This is a new spelling error, which confuses me greatly - I swear it's doubled in frequency over the past year.

Don't forget about typing skills...

[AGTiny]

I honesty can't stand to even deal with someone who uses shorthand such as "u" or "ur". I think that one of the causes of this is poor typing skills. If you can't type fast enough, "u" or "ur" is easier than typing "you" or "your". These people must just assume people don't mind reading that garbage.

Spend some of that $3.1B on typing skills as well as language skills!

spelling and grammar?

[Anonymous Cowpat]

clicky
The geniuses suceeded in publishing a report with a map on the front which just had a gap where Wales should have been.
Stuff Spelling and Grammar, 3 million people and a few billion sheep just ceased to exist!

Exactly.

[FreeLinux]

Time is money. The problem is that much more time is wasted trying to decipher poorly written emails than, if the writer had taken the time to write it properly in the first place. The problem is even worse when the writing is so poorly done that it conveys a different message than was intended. In fact, just such an example was given in the article.

Indeed, your own post is another example of time wasted due to poor writing skills. It was necessary for me to read your message two or three times in order to determine your meaning. A properly written post would not have required rereading. My time was further wasted by replying to your post with this chastizing comment. You now owe me $2.00

Another issue: Netiquette

[stwrtpj]

The problem I run into at my job is not so much spelling and grammar. I fortunately run into very few problems with that. What sets my teeth on edge is lack of basic netiquette skills.

For instance, I cringe when I see someone reply to a long email outlining multiple points in a discussion, only to see the person head the message with "My comments below IN CAPS". This person then proceeds to do just that, namely give all her comments in all uppercase. Ugh. There is no need for this. It is very clear what is quoted text and what is not quoted text.

Another one that is rampant at my company is top-posting. Everyone insists on quoting a message in a reply and proceeding to post their comments at the top. When I try to lead by example and properly bottom-post, people complain my emails are not clear. Argh.

At least I no longer have a boss like I did on my last job. She wrote her emails in all lowercase and used HTML blink tags.

Re:Another issue: Netiquette

[ShawnDoc]

When I first came to my current job, I was forced to use Outlook which automatically top posts. I got outlook quote fix, which makes makes it easier to quote in accepted "net" style. A few days later I was called in by our VP and told that I needed to start top posting like everyone else. I printed out several pages on the web where people discuss netiquette, and talk about how you should bottom post and only quote what you need to. Let's just say, I'm lucky I still have my job. I now top post on all business communications.

This is the worst they can come up with?

[Mazem]

As evidence the article cites the following quote:
"I updated the Status report for the four discrepancies Lennie forward us via e-mail (they in Barry file).. to make sure my logic was correct It seems we provide Murray with incorrect information ... However after verifying controls on JBL - JBL has the indicator as B ???? - I wanted to make sure with the recent changes - I processed today - before Murray make the changes again on the mainframe to 'C'."

The reason why that message seems so "incomprehensible" is not because of the poor writing but rather because we, the not-intended readers, do not have knowledge of the systems discussed in the email.

Actually the quote looks like it would be quite understandable if I knew
(1) what the status reports were,
(2) what the Barry file is
(3) who Murray is
(4) what "information" they provided
(5) the details of the technobable at the end of the email.
Clearly all of these are things the intended recipient would already know.

I could write an email about an advanced physics topic using perfect grammar and spelling and it would be no more comprehensible to the average reader than this email.

If that is the worst they can come up with than corporate America is in good shape.

To her, it probably was correct...

[EvilStein]

After all, Outlook automatically corrects your spelling for you as you type.

"patience" is spelled correctly. In context, it's probably the wrong word, but it's still spelled correctly.

I've seen that happen quite a few times - people relying on the Outlook/Word spellchecked and it corrects their email by inserting correctly spelled, but irrelevant words.
The CxO drones don't even notice it.

Again, Dijkstra said it best.

[devphil]

IMHO, if an engineer is imprecise in his language, in any medium, he will be imprecise in other more important areas.

Just a couple weeks ago this comment made sense, and hey, now it makes sense even more.

Grammer?

[Cybertect]

Perhaps it's just another Americanism, but over here in England we spell it 'grammar' :)

Tolstoy?!?

[grcumb]

From TFA: "It's not like we're trying to hire Tolstoy."

It's a damn good thing, too. The last thing corporate America needs is a 2000 page corporate org chart in which Alexei Sergeyevich has dotted line responsibility for Sergey Alexeyevich, and both of them are in love with Anya Lamentova (who is referred to half the time as Anyushka, making it look like these two are chasing different women so what's the problem?), and by the time Napoleon finally retreats from Moscow and Sergey Alexeyevich has recovered from the duel with Alexei (Sasha) Sergeyevich we haven't even come close to our quarterly projections and don't give a shit about any of it any more and spend our entire day checking the want ads.

It's nothing new

[M. Silver]

I worked as a secretarial temp in college, and let me tell you: executives have *never* been terribly literate (well, at least since the 80's; I assume it wasn't much different before that). It's only that they used to have secretaries type their correspondence, so nobody knew.

Re:Not completely bleak

[Pinball Wizard]

>> I could give a fuck about Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs - my hierarchy of needs says that I need this job.

Of course you don't care - survival is your primary concern! A stable situation, job, regular income. Once you have those things under control, then perhaps you could be interested in learning about someone's hierarchy of needs. But more likely you'll be interested in sex - getting a girlfriend, etc. So first the job, the regular income, the steady girlfriend, oh and that car you've always wanted. Then perhaps you could be interested in Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

Ode to a Spell Checker

[pipingguy]

Someone other than me originally wrote this. My apologies to non-native English-speakers, as this is bound to do some brane damage to those that do their best to try to comprehend:

I have a spelling checker.
It came with my PC.
It plane lee marks four my revue
Miss steaks aye can knot sea.

Eye ran this poem threw it,
Your sure reel glad two no.
Its vary polished in it's weigh,
My checker tolled me sew.

A checker is a bless sing,
It freeze yew lodes of thyme.
It helps me right awl stiles two reed,
And aides me when aye rime.

Each frays come posed up on my screen
Eye trussed to bee a joule.
The checker poured ore every word
To cheque sum spelling rule.

Be fore a vailing checkers
Hour spelling mite decline,
And if were lacks o'er have a laps,
We wood bee maid to wine.

Butt now bee cause my spelling
Is checked with such grate flare,
Their are know faults with in my cite,
Of nun aye am a wear.

Now spelling does knot phase me,
It does knot bring a tier.
My pay purrs awl due glad den
With wrapped words fare as hear.

To rite with care is quite a feet
Of witch won should be proud.
And wee mussed dew the best wee can,
Sew flaws are knot aloud.

Sow ewe can sea why aye dew prays
Such soft ware for pea seas,
And why I brake in two averse
When righting what aye pleas.

Don't quote

[Confused]

There's an easy solution to your quoting problem: Don't quote.

Think about ehat you want to say and write a self-contained reply without the ugly point for point nit-picking style promoted by quoting.

This has the added benefit, that your receipients either take your interpretation of what was said before or have to work and dig through their own archive.

I had the experience, that this leads to calmer mail exchanges.

"New York Times" is guilty too

[peter hoffman]

It's not just corporate email. The "New York Times" now routinely spells "NASCAR" as "Nascar" as well as mangling other acronyms. I have written to them several times to find out what is going on but they haven't replied. I think it's the result of using MS Word which has a nasty tendency to downcase things.

Since we're on the subject, I'll bring up a related complaint: I think the program which checks your spelling is a "spelling checker" and not a "spell checker" (unless you're some sort of warlock or witch). I know, I need to relax and get used to it but it does bother me.

Re:"New York Times" is guilty too

[coreymichaelbarr]

The New York Times utilizes their own style manual with rather specific rules. It's most likely not an issue with a Microsoft product, but instead the paper following their own grammar rules. The manual is available here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0812 963881/002-3543086-2126403?v=glance

Politics and the English Language

[gidds]

While I heartily agree with all the posters deploring the current state of English as she is typed, I think the problems are deeper than just spelling and grammar. While they are the most obvious problems -- the easiest to spot, criticise, and correct -- if people aren't thinking clearly, then no amount of elegant grammar and immaculate spelling will convert their muddled ideas into clear and direct text.

The author George Orwell wrote an article about this in 1945; I find it a very interesting read, and probably even more relevant today. (It seems remarkably prescient in many respects.) It's called Politics and the English Language, but don't let the title put you off: it's not about politics per se, just about how writers (mis)use English in various types of writing, political and otherwise.

It's online in many places, for example here and here. Well worth a read.

Re:Consistantly?

[tomhudson]

Progris repert 1

My naam is charly gordon. i am playing. with a mouse. named Aljernun. He is kute. The dockters say that after i have my operashun: i will b as smart as Aljernun. Maybe evun smartur.

That wood be fun. Right now; Aljernun can run the maize faster. than me.

Aljernun is a funny naam. His naam shud be miky. Ever body knows! that mouses ar naamd miky. I seed it on the tv.

Scary thought when corporate emails sound like they're written by Charlie Gordon with an IQ of 68, or, in some cases, Algernon running across a keyboard stepping on keys at random.

Email vs. IM

[mwfunk]

I think the issue isn't that all of these supposedly highly educated people can't write...I've worked with many people who were very articulate in print but always sent out emails that looked like they were written by a hyperactive 12-year-old. I think the issue is that it just doesn't register with a lot of people that their emails SHOULD be grammatically correct and have a good flow to them.

I totally disagree and always try and write decent email, but unfortunately a lot of people take the same attitude towards email that they take towards IM...as long as its just barely good enough to kinda sorta communicate whatever they were trying to communicate, then it's OK. They don't think about the impression it makes on other people.

We (technical types) tend to think email should be written with the same care as papers and snail mail, whereas to a lot of other people it's just a less responsive form of IMing. It's a peeve of mine, but there's not really anything anyone can do about it.

Re:Have they ever heard of English as a 2nd langua

[Sein]

It's a stylistic trick to make you click through to the next page - if the page ends in the middle of a sentence you'll know that there's more to read and click next.

Yes, I know that there's also that little 1|2|3 at the bottom of each page, but that broken sentence thing is there as an extra clue/incentive to make you click next to see how the sentence ends.

It's one of the many tricks of commercial copywriting that breaks the rules of proper english...

The Title is Funny.

[twitter]

What corporate America can't build: a sentence

No irony was intended. Let's try another more direct form,

CNet can't write a title.

Sam, the limits of form imposed by advertisement funded, dead tree writing are clear to see. I'm sure the title was made up by some editor, but I feel bad for you.

This wasn't posted by CmdrTaco.

When the nations "Paper of Record" can't get it right, what do you expect from the rest of us? Slashdot digs up news that matters and that's all I care about. Noam Chomsky would say that the media should not be able to write a proper sentence if it's working right. He claims the media's purpose is to limit thought and it does so by presenting what it's owners consider the limits of an acceptable future in an obnoxious and belligerent way. You are supposed to think of news and politics as unpleasant, unpolite and ultimately something beyond your control. What you get from your average 15 minutes a day of news "consumption" is direction not information. George Orwell's "Duck Speak" is exactly what you should expect.

Go back to sleep now.

True story

[windowpain]

I'm an independent film producer. For my latest shoot I placed an ad on Craig's List. Here's a reply I got:

"hello, i am a freelance makeup artist who is also a film student. i have worked on many productions in the philadelphia area including film, video, commercial, print etc.. i would love to work on your project. give ma a call @ 267-nnn-nnnn. thank you
Christy McCabe"

My reply:

"Hello,

I appreciate your interest in Dangerous Movies. We're hip, we're independent and we're unconventional. We have no confidence, however, in people who do not know enough to use proper grammar in business correspondence. The rules for capitalization have not been repealed. And it's obvious you did not proofread your email before sending it out. If you're that careless in trying to get the gig, how careful are you going to be on the job?

I hope you accept this advice in the spirit in which it was given: not to put you down, but to educate you."

Her reply to my reply:

"you are a complete asshole. it is common knowledge that when sending an e mail, all rules of capitalization are thrown out the window. thank you for saving me from having to work on a shitty movie with a bunch of pompous assholes such as yourself. i hope your movie never makes any money.
fuck off."

I'm afraid Miss McCabe's attitude is not unusual among young people these days. She's not merely ignorant. She's indignant when someone is kind enough to try to help her out. Not to mention vulgar and hateful.

Good Writing Equals Smarts

[Icephreak1]

Being able to write well virtually ensures you're dealing with a person who possesses a meticulously organized thought process, or at the most, somebody with a fairly high IQ.

Some may argue that there's no relationship between writing ability and general intelligence, but my reasoning states that in order to produce good writing, one must recognize good writing. And that requires exposure to good writing through reading. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to suggest that the less a person reads, the more likely he is to have an average or below average vocabulary and base of knowledge.

Moral of the story is thus: if you write poorly, chances are you're a poor reader. And if you're a poor reader, chances are you just aren't cut out for the IQ game.

- IP

It gets worse...

[sad_]

I'm working for a american company based in europe (we have english classes at school, but they are minimal!!). All the 'important' communications have to be in english and sometimes it gets far beyond the point of sanity.

My favourites are when local sayings are translated directly into english like;

- some of the slides i will walk faster through (during a powerpoint presentation)
- the server is _sitting_ in that room
- we have to keep our heads stiff!
- we have to watch our passes down the road

like any english speaking person will ever understand what they are talking about.

Sloppy English is a sign of disrespect: an example

[KWTm]

What a timely article! No sooner had I read this on Slashdot than I receive the following email.

The background: I have a somewhat unusual background of an engineering education prior to entering medical school, and I've written on the Web a few articles for engineering students interested in pursuing medicine as a career. In these articles, I encourage readers to contact me with questions, and even though it has been a few years now, requests continue to come in regularly.

This is not the only email I've received that sounds like this:

> i read u r artical in information on medical.
> pl let me know in which college/universities is engineering along with medical is avialable like
> in university of western ontorio.so that if we dont get admission in medical we can continue in
> engineering.
> with engineering is good for females both monetary and job satisfation.
[name withheld]

My first thought was: "You gotta be kidding me." My reply:

--(start)--

You will not get into medical school.

Your sloppily written email to me reveals that you have failed to bother with any modicum of care in writing your request.

First, your English is bad. There are parts I still don't understand, such as "with engineering is good for females both monetary and job satisfation". What is that supposed to mean? Women will be attracted to you if you become an engineer?

While you might simply blame it on a lack of skill with English, it is clearly more than this. You make mistakes with something as straightforward as the name of the university. Who do you think you will impress with an essay entitled Why I Should Be Accepted To "university of western ontorio"? Are you not aware that the word "I" is capitalized in English? That "u r" is not a substitute for "you are"? (This in any case is incorrect usage, since it should be "your", not "you're" or "you are", and certainly not "u r".)

You've read my article on entering medicine, an article freely available to you that I posted at my own expense of time and effort. Having presumably benefitted from my free advice, you now seek further free advice from me. Can you not show me some basic respect by putting some thought into compsing your email? Can you not even be bothered to press the "Shift" key when you type the word "I"?

If all this is really due to ignorance, then you lack the basic learning capacity to function in medical school. If this is due to sloth, then all the worse --you may possibly have the potential, but you certainly haven't the attitude.

Please save yourself and others a great deal of effort by turning your endeavours to other fields. Thank you.

Even in answering your question, I've wasted more than you deserve. To compensate, I'm going to post your missive, and my reply, on the Web so that I will not be bothered by others like you.

--(end)--