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Hacker Sentenced To Longest US Sentence Yet
Iphtashu Fitz writes "The Associated Press is reporting that a Michigan man has been sentenced to 9 years in prison for his involvement in hacking into the corporate systems of Lowe's Home Improvement and attempting to steal customer credit card information. The sentence far exceeds the 5 1/2 years that hacker Kevin Mitnick spent behind bars. Two others are awaiting sentencing, including one of the first people to ever be convicted of wardriving. Prosecutors said the three men tapped into the wireless network of a Lowe's store in Southfield, Mich., used that connection to enter the chain's central computer system in North Wilkesboro, N.C., and installed a program to capture credit card information. No data was actually collected however."
While I think sentences (including this one) in the United States are excessive, and I think prison in fact fails to solve anything because it is used as a punishment rather than a rehabilitation and in fact makes people worse rather than better, I sort of rankle at this person being compared to Kevin Mitnick.
Kevin had no interest in any sort of financial gain from his activities. He was only interested in exploring and seeing what he could find. He was an annoying guy, but not one with ill intention.
I don't know the details about these individuals, but it seems to be implied that it was a moneymaking operation. That makes it far worse than anything Kevin did.
That said, prison isn't the answer. Only violent people should go to prison (and those prisons should be run such that they don't create the atmosphere for violence inside that they do today -- i.e. don't use the prisoners as an unwritten "punishment" against eachother -- punishment is counterproductive.)
Yea... okay. Good idea. Let's throw all those big badass hackers into prison and clog it up even more so that the killers and the rapists can turn parole faster.
Get a grip on reality. Breaking into a computer system is a non-violent crime. It involves monetary damages. Slap the bastard with heavy fines, hit him up with community service and make him pay it back.
You can't just throw everyone who inconveniences you, the poor system admin, into jail.
Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
Yeah, America already has the highest per-capita incarceration rates in the world.
Really, is the policy working?
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True, but the point is valid: had they physically broken into a store and walked off with a bunch of credit-card receipts, would they have received a similar sentence? Or is this just being blown out of proportion because it involves "the Internet"? On top of that, they actually managed to steal nothing ... as the prosecutor said, it was the amount of damage they could have imposed that resulted in the "substantial sentence", not what they actually did. So, in other words, these guys are having a larger book thrown at them than they probably deserve simply because the government would like to make an example of them. Is that a good thing? Perhaps ... but it does indicate that the punishment may not be fitting the crime any too well. That is wrong in and of itself, but has always been the pattern of law enforcement regarding white-collar computer crimes. I suppose that there is a genuine desire to create a deterrent effect (ineffectual as it has been), but there is often an equally genuine ignorance of technological issues by law enforcement.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Indeed, you are more correct than you know. I have been to prison, and I too was involved in a case which was played up for maximum publicity ( which served to benefit the US Attorney, who was planning on running for a judgeship).
The methods which they used to "win" the case were over-the-top in a most amazing sense, and involved creation of false evidence and outright lying by ( paid ) government witnesses.
I intend to write a book about it once I am safely out of Amerika.
I've done my time, and it's behind me, but I have zero faith in the criminal justice system in the US, and I intend to leave the US
for a country which has a system which doesn't allow the perversion of justice to such a large degree.
You may think my opinions are rooted in bitterness, but actually I have no qualms about having been punished. Where I have (large) objections is the dishonest and ruthless methods which were used to ensure that the prosecution "won" in the biggesst way possible. That is a travesty of justice, friends, and the people responsible will hopefully burn in hell.
The adversarial system, combined with the federal sentencing guidelines, makes this country a pretty scary place to live, when you are aware of what can happen. Of course, usually awareness comes simultaneously with trouble, and then it's too late.
Anyone who thinks it can't possibly be more fair and reasonable in other countries simply doesn't know much about the rest of the world, and also has a view of the US court system which is not grounded in reality.
I'd like to post my email address, so I can share my experiences with others who might be curious, but frankly I am afraid to.
Happy Holidays to all, and be damned careful out there, because things in the US are weird and getting weirder.
You're right, breaking into a computer system is a non-violent crime. Are you saying that since it only concerns monetary damages it doesn't warrant a jail term? I suppose ENRON execs would certainly share your viewpoint. Grip on reality?, I imagine your views on the subject would change if your credit card was charged for purchases you never made. It would stand to reason that someone doing this doesn't have the money to back up the offenses he/she has done so there would be no recouping of lost money. Hit him up with community service? Sure, in each community of the owners of those cards, 100 hrs each. Again you're right, we can't throw everyone who inconveniences us in jail, but we can make sure that those that break the law end up there.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Question is, would someone caught walking out the building with a backup tape from the credit card database server be locked up for 9 years, or is this just another waste of tax payers money on making another example of computer hakers when really the computers were just a tool in a rather mundane crime.
Some may argue that the punishment does not fit the crime, that it is much more severe then other forms of monetary crime. But what makes cracker crime so dangerous to the IT industry is that it attacks the trustworthiness of the infrastructure. If consumers turn away from online transactions, if businesses decide to reduce their reliance on computers, then IT employment will drop or not increase to its full potential.
Look at the analog of this in meat-space -- people would rather shop, go to work, enjoy entertainment, etc. in a safe environment. Businesses that try to operate in crime-ridden neighborhoods don't do as well, don't have as many customers, don't hire as many employees, and don't pay as well.
IT employment depends on the continued adoption and use of IT by businesses and consumers. If the internet and computing becomes a ghetto of spyware, crackers, and phishers, the economics of IT will suffer. To the extent that people avoid using computers for fear of crime is the extent that ITer will see their jobs disappear.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
You took a quote from the prosecuter - a guy with a vested interest in slamming people and playing it up so he looks better - as evidence defending the sentence? While there's no technical problem with that, the level of bias is so extreme that I find it hard to believe anyone in their right mind would take it as a reasonable amount of evidence.
I also find it hard to believe they'd have been slapped with that sentence had they stolen the tape backups instead of used a network.
Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
How is hacking into Lowes for credit card numbers a life-affirming value?
How is sentencing a criminal to 9 years in prison for being a greedy fuck bent on stealing people's credit cards anti-life?
Just because you use a computer to commit a crime doesn't mean that you're some kind of hero.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
" I bet he isn't looking forward to having his security hole exploited while in prison!"
You have no idea what you are talking about. Yes, there IS homosexuality in prison, but nearly none of it is not consensual.
You see, I have been there. I am not homosexual, and never once was there even a hint of me being the victim of sexual aggression. And I am not a badass, so that excuse won't fly.
People like you who make comments based on nothing more than some movie they saw make me sick. And if you WERE in prison, and mouthed off like that, you'd get the ass-kicking of
a lifetime.
Try sticking to commenting on something you actually have knowledge about ( ok, well, this IS Slashdot, so I guess that's asking too much ).
Anyway, I did time in some very bad places, and you people who talk about "Bubba, etc. " don't have ANY idea what it's really like.
The truth is, most people just want to survive to see the outside
again, and they mind their own business. Those who "get stupid" find out quickly that life can get very rough indeed, because there is ALWAYS someone bigger, meaner, crazier, and more willing to do what it takes to win. It ain't like the movies you have seen, I promise you.
Actually, he used the term correctly. An argument which "assume[s] the truth of an argument or proposition to be proved, without arguing it" will "beg a/the question".
It was stated that someone is going to court for wardriving, which is tacitly stating that wardriving is an offense. However, this is not necessarily so, so it begs the question as to whether wardriving is actually an offense.
The poster himself may have responded to you admitting a misuse, but I don't think he misused the term at all.
Yeah, huge fines are going to discourage people trying to steal credit card data. Suppose you hit them with a non-trivial fine of 500,000. What do you think the odds are that any hacker that has ever broken into a server is going to be able to pay even a tenth of that?
How about this, quit wasting time, money and prison space busting people for drugs by legalizing the stuff, and use all the space created in prisons for hackers, and other white collar criminals who commit 'nice crimes' where nobody gets 'hurt'.
Anyone who writes a worm that makes the national news because it cripples half the internet deserves some jail time.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
Spoken like someone who has never had their identity stolen. What fine is large enough to make up for ruining someone's credit for several years and costing them their dream of buying a home? Will they have to perform community service on my rental unit? This was a crime both against the system and individuals. One count of attempted fraud for each CC number on the system seems about right.
Jail is precisely where we throw people who inconvenience us. It does a great job of preventing them from further inconveniencing us. This time it should work for oh, about 9 years I'd say. At least.
I'm calling myself a white hat code wizard.
The 'popular perception' of the whole hacker (code geeks)/cracker (crypto geeks) myth is a kind of hopelessly unwinnable argument about angels on pins.
Considering the alternatives, I've just invented a new name for myself and left the waste of time up to those poor souls who care.
I've just given the hell up.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
here here...
You don't here them called "locksmiths" when a thief picks a lock and loots a home!
Q: I am short, useless and provide no value. What am I? A: a sig
Today its a "war on terrorism" but its the same bullshit.
Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley
My business partner learned hacking and coding from this guy when the guy was legit.
What he did I think any of us on Slashdot could do. It doesn't require a great deal of skill or 31337N355.
This is in the "Your Rights Online" section because he should be treated the same as someone who thirty years ago stole file cabinets of data about people at a large chain's headquarters. If the data is the same then there is no need for changing the sentence.
That said, the young man did wrong and will get what he deserves. He was a little bit bright and could surely have come up with a better scheme than this. I know I could, but I and his former "student" are devoting our time to a legit business.
Please excuse the shameless plug. We may be legit, but we're certainly not wealthy. Starting a company is hard work. 60+ hour workweeks, paying yourself less than minimum wage for a year or more... No wonder Mr. Salcedo chose the "easy way out".
I dunno, I'd rather lose my retirement fund then my retirement life. There's no question that computer crime is crime, but it doesn't hold a candle to violence.
SAILING MISHAP
So lets say someone leaves there front door unlocked, should they go to jail if someone breaks in? Perhaps the front door is locked, but the dog door is unlocked? What if the the windows don't have bars on them?
If that person's windows and doors were broadcasting the contents of the home on public frequencies, maybe.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
There have been murderers sentenced to one-fourth that length of time.
Yes, a two year and three month murder sentence is way too short. Rediculously short, an aberration, and completely irrelevant to determining a proper sentence for computer crime.
I haven't been in jail but I have clients who have. Jails are infuriating. For example, a few weeks ago I went to the local county jail to see one of my clients. I'm standing at the window waiting my turn. A middle aged guy is there and explains that his son went to court for some hearing and was placed in jail for whatever reason. He had lent his truck to his son to get to court. His son had the keys on him and so they were now in property. He asked if he could get them out. Was told "no - not unless his son made a written request within 24 hours of being booked". After that 24 hrs, the keys stay in property till the son gets out of jail. So he wants to contact his son in a timely fashion. Nope, he can't do that either - he can send a letter or try visiting hours the next day. But then 24 hrs would pass and his sons written request to release the keys would be worthless. They went round and round like this for a while and in the end, the jail won.
A small thing but I can't imagine how much those constant small things would add up. I don't have to go down there much, but I hate every minute of it. If I spent even a week on the inside, I'd come out with a real passion for getting at the gov't any way I could.
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
"perhaps too much unless they can get parole in at most 2~3"
This guy is going to Federal prison. There IS NO parole from Federal prison. You get what is called "supervised release" at the end of your sentence - which is effectively similar to parole, but is not the same thing.
Oh, yeah, you can get time off for "good behavior". But the Feds changed that a few years ago. Before, you used to get 53 days a year knocked off your sentence if you didn't get any incident reports. Once you got 53 days for a given year, you had it - they couldn't take it back if you got incident reports in the future.
Now you don't actually get your time off "vested" until the day you're actually due to be released based on whatever time you COULD get vested. This allows the Feds to hit you with more incident reports, take your good time, and keep you longer.
And since it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to do Federal time without incident reports of some kind, this means the Feds get to keep most people longer.
This allows them to increase the prison population, demand more prisons and more money for the Bureau Of Prisons, and increase both their job security and their career paths.
And THAT'S why it was done.
As for where this guy will be going, it depends on his "points", which in turn depends on the crime, the number of criminal charges they were indicted on, any violence, presence of firearms, the amount of any money involved, etc. If they had access to hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of credit cards, they could get enough points to end up in a Federal Penitentiary (the second highest level in the Federal system - the first being a "Super-Max", the third being a Federal Correctional Institution, and the lowest being a Federal Camp.) He could easily end up in Leavenworth. After X years of his sentence with no incident reports, his points could be reduced enough to get down to an FCI, and eventually a Camp if he's lucky.
How he fares at a place like Leavenworth will depend on his smarts in dealing with people who are (presumably) much dumber (but more violent) than he is, as well as factors such as his physical presence, his attitude, his age, etc. I did four years at Leavenworth (after four years in other facilities), including two in "The Hole", and was never physically assaulted (by inmates, anyway - I was pushed around once by a correctional officer.)
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
With all due respect, I think you are the one missing the point. There's way more to getting hurt than bleeding. We see someone who has been shot or assaulted and we feel sympathy for that person, as we should. Our sense of justice demands that whoever hurt them be put away.
But you know what we don't see? We don't see the kid who can't go to college because some fuck wiped out his parents' portfolio. We don't see the mom who has to choose between buying a smoke detector or food because her budget just can't stretch that extra little bit to cover what the cracker skimmed off the top. There are all these little costs that are basically invisible, but they add up and when they affect enough people THEY MATTER. So while physical injuries are certainly easier to empathize with, saying that someone shouldn't go to jail for a long time because they "didn't hurt anybody" is sophistry.
I'm posting anon, because as a former employee, I should probably be keeping my mouth shut.
Sounds like they cracked into the network via the LRTs (Laser Radio Terminals). So, okay, you'll see a big rollout of security across the company soon to take care of that (all stores are pretty much exactly the same, so whatever they did, it will work in every store until it's fixed.). What's interesting is it's probably quite similar in other retail chains. Just a few IBM servers running AIX in the back, and until recently, all the registers were just terminals (they're now all linux thin clients). You could go to target, pier-one, or whatever other big retail chain you like, and try the same thing.
Offtopic: If any clued-in and still current employee sees this post, can you tell me why they removed the lookup lookup account from the system? I was annoyed when they got rid of it; I liked to use it for price audits while running end of day.
Lets get the real crooks who cost corporate America more money and are an irritation to society!
seriously malware programs are trojan horses and its cracking pure and simple. Many install themelves via buffer overflows in javascript just like a real worm. Many install keyboard loggers and backdoors just like a real worm. ALso many slow down computers just like real worms. So if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then what is it?
They are the true crooks here.
http://saveie6.com/
There's something interesting in the geekish horror about physical violence and their Darwinian attitude towards non-physical acts of aggression. When it comes to any kind of victimization that uses mental or social methods, it's the fault of the victim for being unprepared, undefended, uninformed - maybe it's a sort of vicarious revenge fantasy, a larcenous "Revenge of the Nerds" or something. But on the physical level, oh no - nothing could be more horrible than being punched or hurt than someone bigger than you.
And frankly, the fear of physical violence is exaggaerated. Yes, injury and death are understandably horrifying, but to here some geeks speak, losing $10,000 is preferable to getting a broken nose. Is it body-horror? The fantasy of being pure mind? People, bones mend and cuts heal, but some of the damage done to spirit (and the loss of time that theft from someone who has worked for it implies) don't always heal so well.
Slashdot needs a Fight Club.
When you talk about high incarceration rates in the US, most people agree that the main culprit is the US' assinine drug laws. Please tell me how this relates to credit card theft?
/.ers are getting their knickers in a twist over the blatant invasion of privacy and potential theft of billions these assholes tried to pull off? If this had been some ad-company surreptitiously grabbing personal information (not even CC information), /.ers would be going bananas.
On a somewhat related note, why is it that so few
Humorless sig goes here.
If the guy got away with it, there's the potential for thousands to millions of dollars' worth of fraud
Why isn't Kenneth L. Lay of Enron doing jailtime then? Or whoever was behind the WorldCom debacle? These guys didn't just have the potential for thousands to millions of dollars' worth of fraud. They perpetrated actual robbery to the tune of billions of dollars, and pocketed the money. And where are they now? It seems theres more than one form of justice in the USA
Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris.
The 3rd guy, Adam Botbyl, used to live on the street behind mine. He's a couple years younger than me; my little brother knew him better than I did. (This article names him)
This was probably 10 years ago (him and my brother would have been in 5th or 6th grade), but one interesting bit of trivia is that he was the butt of jokes by the other kids. A bunch of the neighbor kids were into collecting basketball cards. Some of the crueler ones would put common cards back into the pack and glue the top together, and they'd sell or trade them to Adam.
As I heard about this through my brother, it was portrayed that Adam was hella gullible. One pack had a card from the wrong brand in it (e.g. a Topps card in an Upper Deck pack); the other kids told him that it must be some error and might be more valuable. Whether the kid actually believed it or just went along to avert more bullshit is a question for him.
Stories like this were pretty common, and I wonder what that does to a kid, having no good friends around.
Now, I'm not saying that's an excuse; he's a total stupidass for what he did.
My stupid web site
The defendant was already on probation. He was busted in 2000 for cracking passwords on arbornet.org. He was 17 at the time, and one of the terms of his probation was to stay off the internet.
n ews-11/1103213452260230.xml
http://www.mlive.com/news/aanews/index.ssf?/base/
(limited personal information cookie-filling-out required)
Boo hoo. He voilated the terms of his cake-walk probabtion. Have fun in prison.
There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell 'em.
Interesting concept... So lets say someone leaves there front door unlocked, should they go to jail if someone breaks in? Perhaps the front door is locked, but the dog door is unlocked? What if the the windows don't have bars on them?
Actually, it's more like leaving all you furniture out by the curb for someone to walk off with at will. You're broadcasting its presence to the rest of the world and you have no reasonable expectation of privacy.
Wireless signals are accessible by EVERYBODY. They are not constrained by the notion of "private property" like your house is.
The most fitting analogy I can come up with is leaving a breifcase full of credit card information sitting on a park bench DELIBERATELY.
Yes, using that information for nefarious purposes is illegal, but leaving it laying around somewhere with no reasonable expectation of privacy is negligent. One might even consider it criminally negligent. If you were in the UK, it sounds like their privacy laws would agree with you.
What about the Corporate crime bosses who bilk millions or billions from people via fraud - they never get this level of sentence.
In our society, some people are more "equal" than others. It's fucked up but it's a given when you let someone have 1E9 dollars to themself. The only way it's ever going to get fixed is if we realize that capitalism != democracy, and adjust or society accordingly.
Life is too short to proofread.