Latest "iPod Killer" Takes Aim at the Mini

blamanj writes "ReignCom, has just released the iRiver H10, a 5GB MP3 player with 1.5" color screen and FM tuner. Currently available in Korea, the company plans a US release in January. The price is higher than Apple's iPod mini, but it does have extra features. iRiver has generally gotten good reviews for quality, as well." Update by J : We typoed that as "5MB" earlier, sorry.

Comments

Quit your bitching!

[mr.henry]

5 MB ought to be enough for anybody!

Re:Quit your bitching!

[Anonymous Coward]

It was an engineering decision. The user interface can be drastically simplified by having only one song.

There is one button, 'play'. Compare this to the overly complicated ipod

Re:Quit your bitching!

[garcia]

Personally, I disagree. I just got an Archos AV400 (80GB) for Xmas and I can't say that I would appreciate anything less.

Right now I have 6 TV episodes on there (all recorded from Tivo for playback on the plane tomorrow) and I'm currently recording Star Wars DVD trilogy to it for the same thing.

I have my entire music collection on there along with a backup of my "important" files from my network and I'm still at 45GB remaining.

Yeah, the battery life probably isn't the best (I get about 12 hours out of it playing MP3s all day long). I don't know what it will be like with video going but hopefully long enough to last the 2.5 hour flight from MSP to CVG...

I consider myself to have a "small" music collection at a little over 5GB of MP3s (as it doesn't seem to play SHN/FLAC so I can't add those into the total) and those are "must haves". I certainly wouldn't want to have any less than that.

5GB just doesn't seem like enough to me.

Re:Quit your bitching!

[Fred_A]

iRiver already has 20 GB and 40GB units, the H320 and H340 are the latest ones.

They play MP3, vorbis and a few other formats, have a built in FM radio, can record, can display photos and can play the part of a usb host with any device that's mass storage compatible.

I know I'm quite happy with my H320.

5MB

[Uncle Jimmy]

the iRiver H10, a 5MB MP3 player

Who needs 1000 songs, when you can have one?

Re:5MB

[skreuzer]

No wireless. (Alot) Less space than an iPod. Lame.

Re:5MB

[jamesbuko]

idiot...its for MIDI files

Re:5MB

[rzebram]

That's nothing! Back in my day, there was only 5MB of music in the entire world, and we liked it that way!

5MB

[TruePaige]

Back in my day, I walked uphil bothways, with only 5MB of music to listen to!

Why is everything an iPod killer?

[seanadams.com]

This iRiver product is not quite as ridiculous as some of the other "iPod killers" which added video support for "only" 2x the price, size, weight, and power consumption, but why is it a "killer"?

Unless something can beat the iPod on value, the only thing that will kill it is market saturation, plain and simple.

Re:Why is everything an iPod killer?

[Herr_Nightingale]

Differences:
H10 - 12 hours batt.
iPodMini - 8 hours

H10 - 5GB
iPodMini - 4GB

H10 - 1.5" TFT colour display. Gorgeous.
iPodMini - 1.67" grayscale LCD w/LED backlight

H10 - 95.5mm x 54.6mm x 15mm (96 grams)
iPodMini - 91mm x 51mm x 13mm (103 grams)

Except for size, the H10 wins. Plus it plays WMA, which is an advantage for a lot of people.

Re:Why is everything an iPod killer?

[numark]

Frankly, I find the Zen Micro to be completely ugly. You're presented with the same problem when you're competing against Apple, who goes to great lengths and costs trying to find out exactly what people want to see. They capitalized on the customization feature of different iPod Mini colors, along with the sleek metallic design and click wheel. People are willing to pay more for the "wow" factor, not necessarily so with an FM tuner that few people would be likely to use.

Re:Why is everything an iPod killer?

[msimm]

Does it include a popular online retail music site built specifically for it? Does it have 'best of breed' management software integrated tightly with both the retail store and the hardware?

Trying to compete with the iPod is a tall order, there is the overall experience which isn't necessarily about built-in features or price.

And whats up with the chrome framing around the touch pad and the display screen? It makes it look like one of those miniature TV's from the 90's. Not something to aspire to. But its pretty hard to know what its like without actually holding it, the iPod has the looks, but it also has a feel thats pretty nice (not that I own one, but they let me touch it at my local Fry's...still).

Re:Why is everything an iPod killer?

[diamondsw]

I'll give you the battery life, but a difference of a gig (even though it's 25% larger) won't make or break a sale for most people. Likewise, the size difference is miniscule and won't make a difference either. A color screen - what the hell for? If we're comparing MP3 players, who cares? The iPod Mini has a wonderfully readable screen with a great backlight (far better than my old 2G iPod). And I'm sorry, but given the download numbers of the various stores, I can't accept the argument that WMA is such a plus.

No, what will will the H10 isn't any of these specs. What will kill it is the fact that in the consumer marketplace, the iPod is *the* thing to have, because everyone knows it works, it's "cool", and it's simple. The fact that the H10 is more expensive will seal its grave.

Come on guys, we've been over this a million times already. Until you have a product with a MAJOR advantage over the iPod, it's not going to make a dent. We've seen dozens and dozens of players that have this extra feature and that one, maybe a little less money, but nothing huge. One has an FM tuner, one plays more formats, one has 5GB, one shows photos, one costs a little less. Ultimately, these are nits compared to the sheer buzz of the iPod.

[Where Apple *is* extremely vulnerable is the iPod photo and the high-end - sales numbers are confirming that the iPod photo is a dud, and Apple's refusal to embrace video sounds an awful lot like their initial resistance to CD burners.]

Re:Why is everything an iPod killer?

[msimm]

I use a basic CD based Mp3 player. My religion? I don't think so. But if you get past your anti-zealotry maybe you could see that there is something there, hell maybe you can't. Corporate America? You don't know me, my politics or my background. So why don't you take a breather.

The whole attitude that there is no emotion in a product is plainly contradicted in your frothing response. Everything had an impact. The look, the feel, the whole package.

Re:Why is everything an iPod killer?

[badasscat]

There's competition, albiet not much, out there, not to mention the 512 to 1 gig players out there. Most people have no need for 40 gigs in their pocket or they don't want to drop 249 or 299 for an iPod, which wont record line in nor do FM/AM.

I have about eight separate issues with each one of your statements here. I will cover only the most pertinent in the interests of readability.

First of all, nobody needs any mp3 player. I mean let's get a sense of perspective here - every single one of these things, from the lowest of the low-end 128MB flash player to the 60GB iPod, is a complete luxury item. 10 years ago, we all got by just fine with our portable CD players. 10 years before that, we got along fine with our cassette walkmen. 10 years before that, we got along fine with nothing. (Maybe a nice transistor radio or something, but that's about it.)

So the argument that people will or will not buy one of these players based on "need" is meaningless. People buy these players because they want them, and that's one thing Apple understands that their competitors don't. Apple makes people want a product that they have absolutely no need for, whereas their competitors are busy building the products they think their customers need.

(It reminds me of an old saying about art, and I'm not sure I've got it exactly right, but it goes something like, "True art isn't about giving people what they want; true art is about giving people something that they didn't know they wanted.")

And what's this about recording AM/FM radio?? Honestly, who buys an mp3 player for this? This is akin to photocopying your favorite novels at the local library so you can enjoy them later, in all their degraded, barely-readable glory. I mean Jesus Christ, just buy the stupid thing. Listening to the radio is one thing, and I can see that being somewhat useful... but when you're talking 40GB worth of music at your fingertips, in as good quality as you chose to make it in the first place, I don't think listening to the radio is really a product seller in this category. (Yeah yeah, people want to time-shift their talk shows or whatever... all six of you out there.)

I see a lot of 128-512 meg players out there and people don't at all seem to mind not having their entire collection on them at all times.

Apple's on track to sell four million iPods in one quarter. I actually doubt there have been four million flash-based players sold in total, throughout the history of flash-based players, by every single manufacturer combined.

Now, to add my $0.03 (my opinion's worth one cent more than most!) about this iRiver player, I mean, I have nothing against it, competition is good, etc. etc. But it's not gonna make a dent in iPod sales. Because for one, even the iPod Mini is a shadow of its big brother in terms of sales (read the article I linked earlier), so it's not even Apple's biggest market. But it's still a market they dominate. They dominate that market through a combination of things that add up to a total user experience - and a couple of extra features on a competing model is not going to do anything to change that. Because it's frankly just not about features.

I'm no big fan of Apple but I acknowledge that they have a certain understanding about basic human nature that very few other companies do. Their product design teams are not run by a bunch of MBA's and they do not design by committee. They actively looked for a new market segment with the iPod, they found it, and they defined it. Nobody's going to catch up to them by just dumping a few extra features or a couple more hours of battery life into their player. I mean that's the reality. This is Apple's market.

Re:Why is everything an iPod killer?

[Jesus IS the Devil]

'best of breed' LOL. You have been to too many conference shows, my monkey friend.

Re:Why is everything an iPod killer?

[nine-times]

And your arguments make you a marketing department's dream: you only raise points that are based on emotion: "overall experience", "aspire", "a feel thats pretty nice".

And you know what? That emotional appeal is what drives purchasing behavior. It's not all that unreasonable, either, when you think about it. If I'm carrying a device around all the time and using it every day, and I can use:

A) a device looks good, has a pleasant "overall experience", and generally makes me feel good, or...
B)device that's ugly, is painful to operate, and makes me feel like a schmo to carry it around, but has slightly better specs...

In that case, is it really so unreasonable to go with the pretty device?

Even geeks make purchases based on emotion. The only difference is they're driven by the emotional attachment to the idea of "powerful" rather than "pretty". Or they buy hard-to-use items to make themselves feel smart for being one of the elite who can use it. Or they specifically buy ugly devices so that they don't feel like "a mindless building block of consumerism."

So, I hope you understand that there are some marketers somewhere meeting about these iRiver devices, saying, "It's great. The mindless building blocks of consumerism that want to think they aren't mindless blocks of consumerism are eating our products up! They've fallen into our emotional appeal of being 'anti-iPod'."

That's 5GB

[AnotherFreakboy]

That's 5GB, not 5 MB.

You'd think they could have at least read the article title, if not the entire article.

Its 5 GIGAbytes

[mtrisk]

That should be 5GB, not 5MB, otherwise it wouldn't be much of an Ipod-mini killer. Speaking of which, can we stop calling every portable audio device that? If it's cool, it's cool. It brings more choice to the consumer. But why should the Ipod die? For some people it's what they want, for others it's not. Okay, buy a different player. Sheesh.

5mb, wow

[Bin_jammin]

I hope that it's slightly smaller than the size of a stack of 4 floppies

Yeah

[Anonymous Crowhead]

Hear that sound? That's the iPod laughing itself to death.

5 megabytes!

[nxs212]

wow, with capacity like that, it will definitely give the mini run for its money.
(i don't expect nerds to have good "grammer" or use there and their appropriately, but come ON! Gigabytes and Megabytes is something this article's poster should be familiar with)

5 minutes of pure iPod-killing joy

[RaySnake]

And before you know it old Koreans will be demanding bigger drives on these things. All kidding aside though the little toy sure looks pretty from the pics. I just wonder how good the user interface will be? Guess I'll have to get myself a late Christmas present.

Bad Timing

[rel4x]

Is it just me, or does it seem like it would be a better idea to release this thing DURING the Christmas season, rather than directly after it? (you know, when everything else drops to clearance prices to ditch unsold Xmas stuff)

Re:Bad Timing

[fiddlesticks]

maybe they're, um, not actually going for the christian holiday thing, what with them being 65% non christian and the ones that are christian not using christmas as an excuse for just large-scale gift giving

so yeah, maybe it's just you.

No, No, No, never going to happen

[Stubtify]

Everyone claims that the next ipod killer is around the corner, but they forget that most people who buy an ipod aren't doing so for feature sets. I know 10 year olds who want an ipod. Why? Because everyone else has one. They won't buy another brand because it holds 2000 more songs or has an FM tuner.(note: ogg support is one of thes non-mainstream features) Until apple makes a mistake (ugly design, WAY overpriced, crippling features) the demand for anything else will never come close. Truth is, the ipod isn't all that expensive for what you get, most other companies are right around the same price point, it just works for anyone no matter how technically challenged, and it fits the needs of almost everyone in the target demographics.

Rip Off

[bedouin]

This player is $344, almost $100 more than the iPod mini. With educational pricing one can get an iPod mini for $229. People purchasing a mini iPod don't care about photo viewing, and there won't be much room for any once all your audio fills up the 5gb hard drive. Built-in radio? Every walkman I ever owned had pathetic radios that were essentially useless, not to mention radio itself is barely worth listening to nowadays.

Just another example of how Apple just 'gets it' and others attempt to add the kitchen sink and clutter to make up for their design inadequacies.

iPod-Killer List

[tirefire]

To be a certified iPod-killer, a new product must undergo rigorous tests and examinations. Specifically, it must meet these criteria: 1. Must be ugly as sin. 2. Must be a rectangular prism. 3. Must have a square display of the exact same size as the iPod. 4. Must incorporate a stupid button/barrel system instead a scroll wheel. 5. Must lie about battery life, giving figures that are for 48 k/sec files. 6. Must have an FM tuner, since people buy Mp3 players to listen to the radio, not their music files. I'm happy to say that this candidate meets most of these criteria easily (though it's not quite ugly enough), in addition to adding some of its own: -Useless color screen -Voice recording (since it's the same shape as a tape recorder)

iPod is to Apple as

[Macondo]

Walkman was to Sony. Many alternatives appeared to compete with the walkman but Sony is still counting the cash...

Radio Tuner

[Singwolf]

I really like the FM (and AM likely too) tuner feature. I haven't bought and iPod because of its lack on it.

Listening to music is fun and pleasant, but sometimes people want to hear something with less lyric and more up to date content (as for example the news).

Re:Radio Tuner

[Mad Leper]

Exactly why I passed on the iPod and got an iRiver H120 instead.

Having FM radio is important to me, as I listen to CBC radio every day on the bus. I gladly paid more for the Iriver than I would have for the iPod, just to get the FM radio.

And I must say, the H120 is the best MP3 player I've ever used. Great sound and battery life, along with a wonderful inline remote control.

And outfitted with a black iSkin, it looks way cooler than that shiny white brick everyone else is carrying around..

Re:Radio Tuner

[xaotica]

Some ipod owners I know use software to automatically record NPR and other audio streams to mp3, then load it onto the ipod and listen during the day. Although that's not nearly as timely, I think it's still an interesting alternative.. particularly if the radio shows you're interested in are broadcast at odd hours of the day/evening.

Radio on minis

[nick_davison]

6. Must have an FM tuner, since people buy Mp3 players to listen to the radio, not their music files.

To be fair, a lot of people who buy the minis are buying them specifically for the gym. Most gyms also have TVs that are muted with their sound broadcast via FM for those with radios. A built in radio stops you looking like a complete nerd, having your MP3 player on one arm, radio on the other, graphing calculator in one pocket, cell phone on your hip, PDA in the other pocket and god knows how many pocket protectors.

Of course, it's an understandable mistake to make on /. as 1) we're all nerds and think that sounds cool and 2) what the hell is a gym anyway?

Which, I guess, is why I married a personal trainer/physical therapist and still bought her an iPod last week which I get to endlessly worship for it's unmatched UI design while never going anywhere near her beloved gym.

Re:Call me when iRiver starts supporting AAC

[TheOverlord]

check out iAudio. they have multi format players including flac and ogg.

None of these "killer" articles mention...

[michaeldot]

...the "other half" of the portable music equation.

Synching between the computer and the device.

The iTunes+iPod combination is so effortless, it's barely even noticeable: one instant the music's on your computer, the next it's in your hand.

When these devices' FireWire/USB 2.0 synching gets to this effortless state, then maybe we'll start talking "killer." Until then, keep posting the driver links.

Re:None of these "killer" articles mention...

[meringuoid]

I actually much prefer the iRiver to the iPod as far as transferring stuff goes. Certainly iTunes will copy across all your music from PC to iPod, but it's an absolute nightmare doing it the other way round. iTunes seems to reorganise your collection into a bizarre, twisted file structure comprehensible to no human mind, while the iRiver machines just keep it the way it was on your PC. Easy to download, easy to upload... A major selling point, to me, is the ability to pirate enormous amounts of music to and from my friends via sneakernet (well, busnet, and occasionally carnet, but you know what I mean...)

Re:None of these "killer" articles mention...

[ratamacue]

What could be more effortless or straightforward than mount, ls, and cp? (Especially if you've been doing it for years.) Or select, copy and paste to removable device?

For at least some people, itunes is just redundant, and therefore not part of the "portable music equation".

More Pics from the Premier

[glamslam]

http://club.iriver.co.kr/freeboard/view.asp?Page=1 &SrchItem=&SrchString=&idx=172358

Scroll down for some real pictures of it in action.

Re:Ipod killer it is not

[SpookyFish]

Decades? Hardly. The iPod's life is short-lived without integration.. Within a few years, 5+g drives will be stuffed into cell phones and mp3 playback becomes a total commodity -- along with color screens, photo & video viewing, etc -- for (far) less $ than players today thanks to contract kickbacks.

Now, an Apple-Moto-iPod&Talk with a touch screen and virtual wheel, that'll take it forward.

I have not heard that yet.

[twitter]

Hear that sound? That's the iPod laughing itself to death.

So what sound does it make when you try to play an ogg file? The Iriver sounds great. How about the sound it makes when you try to upload your music to another computer for the 5th time? The Iriver does that without complaining, as far as I can tell. "Cool" That's the sound my wife made when I told her that some of the newer music players also acted like a photo album.

Think different? Nah, just think.

Re:I have not heard that yet.

[nordicfrost]

So what sound does it make when you try to play an ogg file?

Hey, Joe Consumer called. He left a message: "I have no idea what you are talking about and futher down the road, I don't care".

Not a flame, just the truth. There is very, very, very little use in adding support for something like 100 000 persons (including me) use on a regular basis.

And iriver sucks ass. I have tested a couple of them. They have bad interface, ugly design and flat sound. Uploads? My iPod does that. In several ways, in fact. Photo album? Sure thing.

Why do you hate the ipod

[eadint]

On three different news shows i saw segments that cover portable MP3 players none of them mentioned the ipod. it seems like every week therre is another ipod killer device out there, but still apple is selling so many of them they cant keep them in stock. maybe its the king of the hill syndrome or something stupid like that. the fact is that the ipod is not just a device, its a system. you can buy music load it onto you ipod from cd or the itunes store. the entire thing is designed so i can give it to my grandma without worrying about her having a hard time using it. that is what makes the ipod what it is. there will probably never be an ipod killer like there will never be an outlook killer, aplle hit the industry hard and set the standard and evry one else out there is trying to catch up but the ipod has something none of them ever will, coolness and mindshare.

Re:Call me when iRiver starts supporting AAC

[krel]

You are wrong for many reasons:
1: AAC is an open standard and there are open-source encoders/decoders. (http://faac.sourceforge.net/)
2: The m4a format Apple stores its AAC stream in is an extension of their QuickTime container which is an open standard (http://developer.apple.com/documentation/QuickTim e/) I've found that the m4a container is also compatible with the MPEG-4 file format, which is also an open standard and is derived from Apple's QuickTime format.
3: Apple has granted Fairplay licences to Motorola and Macrovision (or so I've heard).
4: Apple probably couldn't sue or demand money if a competitor implemented AAC, or as you're probably referring to, Fairplay. To date they have neither sued nor demanded money from anyone who has implemented Fairplay, AAC, or any of the other audio formats or encryption schemes that the iPod supports (though they have demanded that several sites hosting PlayFair/Hymn cease and desist).

An iPod by any other name...

[kponto]

Maybe one of the reasons no other player comes close is this:

• XS200
• MR 500i
• MR100
• Micro N200
• FL300
• Gmini 400
• JM-600
• m500
• PMP 120
• Xclef 500
• MP-400
• PMP1000
• NW-S23 S2
• NW-E99
• NW-E95
• Yepp T5V
• PMP1004
• Rave-MP ARC5.0
• HZWS2000S
• XDM-S710BT
• HAAP3
• DX740
• SR-M800F

As opposed to an "iPod". I mean christ, the "HZWS2000S"? The "XDM-S710BT"? If you bought one of these and it was great, you couldn't tell your friends about this even if you wanted to.

"Hey man, I got this new mp3 player and it rocks. You should totally get one!"

"Really? Cool, what is it?"

"Um...Ok, hang on, grab a pen."

I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons why they aren't as popular as the iPod, but the current naming scheme on some of these models isn't doing hopefull companies any favors.

k:p

"Latest"?

[Trurl's Machine]

Latest "iPod Killer" Takes Aim...

I wonder if Steve Jobs has a whole collection of these, somewhere in his mansion - labeled "iPod killer #841, iPod killer #842, iPod killer #843...".

Re:Call me when iRiver starts supporting AAC

[Bj�rn Stenberg]

1: AAC is an open standard and there are open-source encoders/decoders.
4: Apple probably couldn't sue or demand money if a competitor implemented AAC

Nonsense. First read the faq for FAAC:

Apart from these open source license issues you also have to pay attention to the involved patents of the AAC and MP4 formats that are handled by the licensing administrators Via Licensing.

Then ask Via Licensing:

Who needs to license MPEG-4 AAC patents?
An MPEG-4 AAC patent license is required for manufacturers or developers of complete (or substantially complete) end-user encoder and/or decoder products.

What kind of weird world do you live in where a patented algoritm requiring royalties equals "an open standard"? These patents mean Apple is free to harass and sue anyone who implements and/or distributes AAC without paying the Apple tax. This completely excludes all free and open source software. Why do you think FAAC are afraid to distribute binaries?

Re:FM Tuner? So what?

[MrHanky]

I'm pretty sure that adapting the radio to Japan's FM range is even cheaper than including the radio in the first place. Also, I believe Clear Channel does not have a radio monopoly in Korea, which, if you read TFA, is the first country this gadget is marketed in. The same goes for the rest of the world, excluding USA (and Canada? I didn't know CC had monopoly there).

The primary market for iPods is the USA. When one company has a stronghold in a market with one product, you don't attack that with a product with equal features, you try to find a niche -- preferably a large one -- that the leading product fails in. For instance, by adding radio to an mp3 player. And voila! You just expanded the market to the parts of the world where they still have and want proper FM radio.

Re:timezone

[evilviper]

I MAYBE get to open ONE present on Xmas eve only ever after 11 PM.

What are you, 7 years old?

Re:Ugly?

[numark]

Well, true, form has a big effect on consumer spending, but the iPod definitely has the substance that the average consumer wants. It plays MP3s and the iTMS's AAC files, which are really all that the average consumer needs. It integrates with iTunes and downloads everything as soon as it's plugged in, which is a plus when many people would have no idea how to load music files by click-and-drag or a proprietary program used only to load music. So, in short, Apple provides an easy-to-use product with all of the features the average consumer wants, and makes it look good to them at the same time.

Spamming Slashdot

[mapmaker]

This seems like a good story in which to pester ya'll for some recommendations. I've got some spare karma to burn after all...

I've been unsuccesfully searching for a replacement MP3 player for a while now. What I want and can't find is an MP3 player that uses CF cards (not SD/MMC) and has minimal/nonexistant internal storage (as I've got lots of CFs already and don't way to pay for unneeded internal storage capacity) and uses regular batteries (AA/AAA) rather than a sealed internal one.

My 2 year old Nex meets those specs but it's getting pretty long in the tooth. Wish I hadn't dropped it so many times...

Does anyone know of any other players out there that meet my criteria?

Problems and solutions.

[twitter]

And there's your problem, the average user has NO IDEA what you are talking about, they don't know what an OGG is, they have't a clue about DRM and THEY DON'T CARE.

Ignorance is a problem, but it's not true that they don't care. Most people who own gadgets like this are already pissed about the upgrade train having made a few of them "obsolete" by not "supporting" them. What better way to educate your friends than by enjoying your devices and music with next to no problems while they struggle with non free formats and clients that don't get along? They want what I've got and it's easier than what they are dealing with.