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Planeshift Enters Open Testing
josePhoenix writes "You may have heard about Planeshift in this article, but now they have finished their period of closed testing and everyone can play/test features! This version of the open source (except the art license) mmorpg includes combat, a much bigger world than the previous version, and many other features that bring it closer to the level of commercial games. The project leader, Luca 'Talad' Pancallo has posted some interesting statistics on the making of Planeshift Crystal Blue on their main page, including that they have 'a virtual team made of about 40 people distributed in 25 countries.' Read the good news and other info about the project, and download the client from this page."
Speaking of a virtual team consisting of different countries. I have the following question: Which country is leading the game developement industry?
Because you know it'll happen...let's link it early, ok?
Ebuilds and such will appear as more bugs are fixed, don't be too hard on the team and contributors, the game only entered open testing yesterday.. josePhoenix
A Planeshift (http://www.planeshift.it/main_01.html) Fanatic! Known as Tavaris in-game
and I will say it again, MMOs are one of the few genres I could see open source taking hold in. Unlike other genres such as fighting games and racing games they arent a quick consume product. They require constant updates and new content, and frequency of updates is definatly one of OS's strong points.
You mean MMORPGs is classified as games? As entertainment? I always figured they were social death stars, but ok.
Not Buzzword 2.0 compliant. Please speak english.
Project Page
Putting a 217 meg file on Slashdot is just cruel. Anyone got a torrent?
If your theory is different from practice, then your theory is wrong.
Our server sponsor, fragnetics, jas just told us that their internet connection provider will be conducting maintenence during the next few hours... A bit of ill timing on my part, but it should be over in a bit. josePhoenix
A Planeshift (http://www.planeshift.it/main_01.html) Fanatic! Known as Tavaris in-game
Not being 733t enough to port it to Linux in one of my spare evenings, I have to ask: is anyone working on a Linux port? Is the game engineered to allow such an endeavor?
On a broader note: are there any MMORPGs for Linux? Not that I would play one; but a decent OpenSource MMORPG kernel could be used as a learning/information delivery platform in interesting ways.
-- ;-)
Who's buying what...
[19:54] [jani} you will be heavily hammered now/ 1728242&tid=209&tid=10 /. : Putting a 217 meg file on Slashdot is just cruel. Anyone got a torrent?
[19:54] [joseChristmas} yay!
[19:54] [joseChristmas} you just saw on slashdot?
[19:54] [jani} yes.
[19:55] [joseChristmas} I am the one responsible for that thingie }.}
[19:55] [jani} yeah, i instantly recognized the nick =)
[19:55] [joseChristmas} hehe
[19:56] [chrischoo} oh dear why do u post on slashdot when we'er going to have a maintenance window?
[19:56] [joseChristmas} you are?
[19:56] [Cad|away} Hey chrischoo!
[19:56] [chrischoo} yes, in the next 1 hr.
[19:56] [joseChristmas} it should be on sf.net
[20:00] [chrischoo} jani: we've been slashdotted on a couple of occasions. we know what it's like.
[20:01] [chrischoo} hhahaha jose u posted the download link on slashdot?
[20:01] [chrischoo} planeshift.it will be offline in a very short while lol!
[20:01] [jani} chris: http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/12/25
[20:01] [jani} indeed.
[20:02] [chrischoo} u can start timing now.
[20:02] [chrischoo} we can start placing bets on how long planeshift.it will be available online.
[20:03] [jani} lol, second post @
[20:03] [joseChristmas} heh
[20:03] [joseChristmas} I saw that
[20:03] [chrischoo} jani: it's very very bad to link a 200MB file to slashdot. very very bad.
yush
It runs on lots of OS's, including *nixes. They just don't have binaries for other OS's yet. Just give 'em some time.
See http://www.crystalspace3d.org/
-chris
http://www.planeshift.it.nyud.net:8090/download/81 23CB5142/PlaneShift_CBV0.3.004.exe
that just redirects you to the real thing, doesn't help at all anybody want to start a torrent? I would, but I don't have the file or the bandwidth.
Why not use autopackage ? It just reached API stable phase. Inkscape and The Gimp already have .package files.
.package file executable, and just run the CLI or GUI installer. Should be better than Loki Installer, or even the one that aMSN uses.
For those that didn't hear about this before: autopackage is a cross-distro binary package with builtin dependency solving. Make the
I'm starting to get tired of OSS projects-games releasing only sources to Linux systems. Stellarium and Vega Strike are other examples of "oh, you run Linux, you should be able to spend a couple hours manually solving dependencies and compiling (and praying that it works afterwards)!"
Autopackage could solve that. It comes with an easy uninstaller, too, and soon it will even integrate with the distro's package management.
The source is available in sf CVS. See here for instructions.
However, a source release is not available, not in their home page, not on sf.
Also, the project is not completely Open Source. Part is covered by the GPL and part by a proprietary license of some sort.
See their explanation.
Some download mirrors here
If you use the CVS version it was checking for 0.97 which is still actually wrong :). I've fixed this in CVS now to use 0.99 but Sourceforges anon servers are delayed a fair bit in updating.
Wouldn't their proprietary "Planeshift License" that doesn't allow modification or use of their work outside their project be a violation of the GPL?
Also, I agree about the source problems and client issues. There should not be a 220MB file on just one server like that - imagine what the /. effect would do - and besides, their server is probably slow anyway. BitTorrent all the way.
They definitely need to make an actual source release; I don't like using CVS, I myself directly release everything. This could easily confuse users who think that they haven't released anything at all.
What's so hard about making a Linux package? Just make a .tar.gz file that you can extract in /, or even better, do a .tgz for Slack :-) They could also do their own live CD.
Just my 2 cents...
Creative misinterpretation is your friend.
Downloaded. Installed. Launched. App complained about missing MSVCR70.DLL. Couldn't find any documentation on this problem.
Moved on.
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
A couple of friends and I offered our services to them, and granted were not professionals, but frankly we blow them away. They gave us a *terrible* time. One very nice guy "got" me (name started with a V perhaps?) and he was nice and encouraging. But the organization wasn't there... I was given directions like, "write a song that has a lot of tableu and flutes" -- not enough info to write a song about. And there was ALOT of pretension. Oddly enough, the writers were the worst. They thought they were gods gift because they were writing background for the characters...
Long story short -- we both gave up on trying to work for free for them, they made it too difficult. Also I told them, that I *don't* relicense my music, ever. They could have a license to use it for their game, but the ownership remain entirely with me. That us unacceptable to them, which makes me think they had secret plans to sell the game in the future.
Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley
I wasn't the first to discover the licensing issues, but I guess I was the first to report it to SourceForge. Of course I wrote the project maintainer first, asking if they had permission from SF to host the art files. The answer I got from the leader was that it was the other way around - they granted SF the right to distribute all their files... Unfortunately SF has been very slow working with this issue. See https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid= 200001&aid=1054384&group_id=1
Authors of art work, music, etc are required to assign copyright and are prohibited from using their own work (except as a portfolio to show employers) as a condition of being a full contributor to the project! The Joint Copyright isn't enough to be a full contributor. Would it have been too much to give the author an unlimited license to THEIR OWN WORK. Slashdot people get mad at employers who put these restrictions on people's own work, they should also do so regarding volunteer projects.
So if I had something non-code related to contribute, I have to agree to not distribute my own work, even for free, in order to contribute to a project for which I wouldn't even be paid?
Are they crazy?
They are locking themselves out from even using free content. I would not suggest author's sell their soul (and the right to distribute THEIR OWN WORK) to this project.
If I create something, unless I'm doing it for a paying job, I damn well want the right to do with it as I wish, and not be told I can't be a full contributor to a volunteer project unless I agree to being shackled and enslaved and prohibited from free use of my own work!
If I give a gift of content (I will not say "intellectual property", there is no such thing, just a legal interest in gov't enforced monopolies, which isn't actually property in any non-legalistic sense) I shouldn't be punished for my generousity by being told what I can't do with my own work.
That isn't in the Christmas spirit, or in any spirit of giving.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
I really don't understand what's up with you artsy types. Coders spend a zillion hours of their free time to make a free open source game just so others can enjoy it but you can't do the same for a bunch of notes? Sure, dream on that one day you'll be famous and you can sell the rights for some disgustingly large sum of money.
If you want to get into a project like this you have to get into the spirit of it and that means doing the work for the fun of it and let the entire world enoy it. It also means that YOU gotta show that you're a worthwhile addition to the team so that means making something you think could be used in the game. It also means being prepared to be shot down because your work doesn't fit their ideas (yet). This doesn't mean you should give up but instead that you should try again, talk with more people, get a feel for what they are trying to do.
And complaining about the lack of organisation in an open source project is silly. That's oly to be expected. If you want more organisation you'll have to prove that you would be a worthwhile addition to the team and do it yourself.
You see, THEY have already spent an insane amount of time on the project, you on the other hand haven't done anything yet so you haven't earned any "rights" yet. If you want them to notice you, to listen to you to even, you've gotta be prepared to do some hard work. (no promising to do hard work in the future if only they would listen to you first is not enough)
That is an insightful post.. Perhaps you should post some of your reasoning on the game forums and see if everyone can get Talad's attention to find out what his reasoning is.. I have to agree that the license is excessively (and perhaps needlessly) prohibitive, especially in allowing artists rights to their own work, but I am no lawyer and don't really have the sort of influence necessary to make thigs change...
josePhoenix
A Planeshift (http://www.planeshift.it/main_01.html) Fanatic! Known as Tavaris in-game
I have mentioned some of them in other posts, but I summarize them here and also mention what appears to be an untruth in their license webpage.
1. People are forbidden from using non-code content, even in other free projects. Legal, but nasty.
2. Authors are required to allow themselves from being forbidden to use their own content as a condition of being a full contributor. They aren't allowed to contribute content they used in any other game, EVEN IF THEY HAVE THE LEGAL RIGHT TO DO SO, EVEN IF THEY HAVE THE LEGAL RIGHT TO GRANT A COMPLETE UNREVOKABLE LICENSE TO USE THE CONTENT, AND EVEN IF THEY HOLD THE COPYRIGHT.. Very nasty, legal, but extremely unfair.
3. They claim these restrictions are needed to prevent authors from retroactively removing permission to use the content and to prevent authors from denying future uses of their work. A simple non-revocable, assignable, perpetual license granted by the author to the project would be sufficient.
I know they don't want forks, and want to have control, but the license even does the authors wrong.
Only people that would likely agree to those shackles would want to get paid in return. Not good for a free project.
See http://www.planeshift.it/pslicense.html
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
Check out Moogies FAQ for the workarounds to some of these problems. The camera should not go through objects unless you have disabled camera collision detection in the options menu, and the crashes from using the interface are due to farked sound support (it will be fixed soon, don't worry). Just change to a different sound mode or disable sound if that happens. Bouncing screen has been a problem since early versions, and is because stairs aren't given special treatment, so you are essentially "falling" from one step to the other. The gliding can be attributed to the walk speed not matching the animation speed, and should be fairly simple to fix.
;)
As you can see, there are many small imperfections (okay, some aren't so small), but this isn't supposed to be a full game or even a stable release (if you noticed, the shortcut says "Plane shift - Open Beta").
Thanks for the review
josePhoenix
A Planeshift (http://www.planeshift.it/main_01.html) Fanatic! Known as Tavaris in-game
Aye tis is completly true ye can't expect to come in a be a god to everybody...
Well let me bridge the gap. I'm a programmer as well as a musician. I have contributed to several open source projects, *AND* was one of the original contributors to Gentoo, infact, I named Gentoo (with the leads approval of course).
I don't know where you get your ideas about open source, programming, or music, but all require a *HIGH* degree of organization. Songs take lots of planning, and careful consideration just like programming. You can't throw together a song or a program. And if you somehow manage to throw something together, thate haste shows in the end project. Yes I am meticulous whether Im programming a sampler or whipping up some python.
That all being said, Its cool they were able to get something together. Its still a victory for open source :)
Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley
Coders spend a zillion hours of their free time to make a free open source game just so others can enjoy it but you can't do the same for a bunch of notes?
One major difference between a computer program and a musical work is that it's possible to consciously avoid copying a computer program. Under copyright law, "copying" a work into one's own work is defined as having ever had "access" even once to a given work and then producing a work that's "substantially similar". The desirable qualities of a computer program are behaviors, which are uncopyrightable, whereas the desirable qualities of a musical work are expressions, which are copyrightable. Thus, unlike a performance of a computer program, a performance of a musical work taints the listener with "access" to the work. Courts have ruled ( Bright Tunes Music v. Harrisongs Music, 420 F. Supp. 177 (S.D.N.Y. 1976)) that a songwriter who writes and publishes a song that turns out to be similar to something he happened to have heard ten years ago on the radio or in a grocery store is just as liable of copyright infringement as "your friendly neighborhood pirate" who sells obviously copied CDs on a street corner.
Given precedent, how do songwriters avoid lawsuits from big publishers in practice? Computer programmers have the dirty/clean room method; what analogous method do songwriters have?
While it may be insighful, as the authors should be allowed what license to contribute their license under especially if they're not paid to produce it, and also should be allowed to keep rights over their work, I'd suggest that the subject line is hard to get past. No one is likely to be converted by calling them fascists. "Hum, I'm a fascit, I've never been called that before." A less trolling tone might let the content make its point, though, as I believe the point is a valid one.
I am, and always will be, an idiot. Karma: Coma (mostly effected by
With their half-baked licensing scheme someone who contributes (FOR FREE!!!) loses a lot of rights associated with their work.. what the HELL is that about? Isn't OpenSource abour sharing and free-rights... not IP swindling 3 page license agreements and all this crap
Excuse me, I don't mean to impose, but I am the ocean
not to mention mozilla, etc. plenty of designers are very into the open source way.
tasty electronic music vittles
Yo. Original AC here. I completely support ya, man. I took a look at Planeshift about a year ago in order to find another coding project to work on. Their concept seems good, although their execution upon close examination is downright shoddy. Their licensing arrangements and justifications for such are simply bullshit. There is no reason why ownership rights of the artwork should be assigned to the project management - especially since this is supposed to be a free project. If they're so worried about artists leaving and screwing them, they should just do a contract for nonexclusive distribution rights. 'Ell, it wouldn't be terribly difficult to simply document the license of each piece of contributed art. Public Domain and Creative Commons work could be used by anyone, exclusive content could be licensed specifically for the project, etc. This approach would not only be fork-friendly, it would also help to prevent any legal fuckups. Although securing ownership rights allows for the added benefit of (unlikely) legal defense of the artwork, it has the more nefarious use as leverage to prevent forks. Even though the code is GPL, any forks are forced to use completely new artwork. Lacking ownership rights, even the original artists cannot permit their own works to be used in a fork. Not cool. As you noted, there is an air of pretension that comes off this project. Although I chose to have no interaction with the group, I reached the same conclusion when I evaluated their stuff. At the time, they did not even wish to release the server source, saying that non-official servers would dilute the quality of their work. WTF? All things considered, their actions do not technically violate the GPL - but their attitude towards forks and their licensing schemes simply fly in the face of the spirit of open source.
unacceptable to them, which makes me think they had secret plans to sell the game in the future.
Forgive me for being obtuse, but do you really think that's a secret?
microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...
Yo. Original AC here.
I completely support ya, man. I took a look at Planeshift about a year ago in order to find another coding project to work on. Their concept seems good, although their execution upon close examination is downright shoddy. Their licensing arrangements and justifications for such are simply bullshit.
There is no reason why ownership rights of the artwork should be assigned to the project management - especially since this is supposed to be a free project. If they're so worried about artists leaving and screwing them, they should just do a contract for nonexclusive distribution rights.
'Ell, it wouldn't be terribly difficult to simply document the license of each piece of contributed art. Public Domain and Creative Commons work could be used by anyone, exclusive content could be licensed specifically for the project, etc. This approach would not only be fork-friendly, it would also help to prevent any legal fuckups.
Although securing ownership rights allows for the added benefit of (unlikely) legal defense of the artwork, it has the more nefarious use as leverage to prevent forks. Even though the code is GPL, any forks are forced to use completely new artwork. Lacking ownership rights, even the original artists cannot permit their own works to be used in a fork. Not cool.
As you noted, there is an air of pretension that comes off this project. Although I chose to have no interaction with the group, I reached the same conclusion when I evaluated their stuff. At the time, they did not even wish to release the server source, saying that non-official servers would dilute the quality of their work. WTF?
All things considered, their actions do not technically violate the GPL - but their attitude towards forks and their licensing schemes simply fly in the face of the spirit of open source.
No kiddin'. Their art licensing terms are, excuse my American, bullshit.
Ok, explain to me why I should give away labor so they can resell it? It takes about 100 hours of work to produce a minute of audio.
Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley
I was very excited when I first discovered Planeshift, and seriously considering contribution to the project, until I learned of their restrictive (and contradictory!) license terms. To me, Planeshift's schizophrenic licensing policy suggests an ulterior motive. Contrast to the genuinely Open Source game, The Battle for Wesnoth (http://wesnoth.org/, a turn based strategy game), which hasn't had problems getting fine art content, or with "forking". I suspect one could find other similar examples.
That's a sound issue. Switch to DirectSound or OpenAL instead of the software renderer.
Holy shit, Monkelectric -- you just echoed my exact experience when I offered my services to them over a year ago. I remember the guy who's nick started with "V" you're referring to -- I agree, he was top-notch to work with; a programmer out of Houston, if I recall. Texas friendly and all that. But he wasn't the one who I had to please; I had to please Talad, and when I pressed Talad for details on what he wanted for "combat music," I got a description very similar in nature to what you described.
When I saw the slashdot article my reaction was exactly like the grandparent post; I wasn't expecting to see another musician's take mirror my own so precisely.
This is the 'top-notch programmer from Houston' here. :-) Thanks for the compliments.
I don't think any of the PS team expects 100% of people to like our licenses or be willing to abide by our contribution rules. It is very ok if you want to retain your own music, etc. Judging by how many projects are out there with sucky art, I'm sure MANY other projects would be eager to accept your contribution terms.
The point is, not everyone has to contribute to PlaneShift. Contribute to something, though! There are a ton of talented people out there--coders and artists--who aren't working together and a lot of stuff is getting totally wasted because of lack of teamwork and pride of "being the guy who started" something.
I've been working for >3 yrs on this project and as a coder, 100% of my stuff is GPL and out there for the public to see (including server code). That is not going to change. If you don't like PS licensing, please contribute to something else.
Keith Fulton
aka "Vengeance"
Server Team Leader
PlaneShift
Proof that a group of assholes can produce a product.
I cannot agree more. I'd like to point out, also, that the product is on par with EQ1, which was released over 5 years ago...
I really don't understand what's up with you artsy types. Coders spend a zillion hours of their free time to make a free open source game just so others can enjoy it but you can't do the same for a bunch of notes? Sure, dream on that one day you'll be famous and you can sell the rights for some disgustingly large sum of money.
You missed the parent's point completely.
Coders give PlaneShift their work under the GPL. "Artsy types" give their work under PSL (the PlaneShift Lisence). From that link:
You may not copy, modify, publish, transmit, sell, participate in the transfer or sale or reproduce, create Derivative Works from, distribute, perform, display or in any way exploit any of the Material released under this License unless expressly permitted by the PlaneShift Team.
This is what the parent referred to as "relicensing". Also, since they are donating their work (as in not being paid for it), AFAIK, it's actually impossible for them to give up copyright under US Law... In other words, the PSL would never stand up in court, so stop pretending to be lawyers (people go to school for a long time for that), shove your PSL up your ass, and publish the stuff under some sort of CCL.
Except for the fact that your PSL is not enforceable in the US or GB (search your forums if you wanna know why).
Wow, what a genius, better go rush off and tell the record companies that it is impossible for singers to assign their copyright to them cause they've been under the mistaken impression that this was possible for decades now. It's really really simple, if you don't want to contribute to Planeshift, dont. If you'd rather contribute your work under a creative commons license, cool, go start your own MMORPG project (you can even use the Planeshift engine!) and do that. You can even claim victory when there are 500 people running servers just like MUDs, and the Planeshift team will be sitting there saying "I told you so" cause that's exactly what they're trying to avoid.
How we know is more important than what we know.
OK, but whats the reason for the rules? Are their plans to sell the game later? And if so, why not tell people up front?
I notice two years later you guys *still* don't have a music lead... is it any wonder? :)
Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley
Everyone is discussing it's portability to linux, it's GPL licensing, or the funny way they are handling the art. What I would like to know is this.
is the game fun? is it worth downloading/installing?
swanker than you
I'll do you a better turn then that, I remember your name :) We used to hang out in the public channel and compare notes since we weren't 'leet enough to be in the dev channel :)
Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley
I don't think you should.
microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...
"I'll do you a better turn then that, I remember your name :) We used to hang out in the public channel and compare notes since we weren't 'leet enough to be in the dev channel :)"
Damn, I -knew- your nick looked familiar.
Heh, no more likely they would start servers where players can kill each other without doing a challenge first, and other basic violations of the rpc rules. Then people who had played these unofficial servers would come to the official server and be annoyed that they couldn't reek havoc there too. Oh wait, that actually happened, I'm thinking of UO or just about any MUD that ever existed.. hmm.. Seriously, if you don't like it start your own art project.
How we know is more important than what we know.
My frustration stemmed less from the stupid license and more from the inability to figure out just what the hell Talad wanted me to write. He clearly had something specific in mind, but lacked the music theory vocab to describe it, and so I ended up spending a lot of time with some work that was never going to get used.
The music is available for download through my website now. At least others can download and enjoy it now.
Wow, what a genius, better go rush off and tell the record companies that it is impossible for singers to assign their copyright to them cause they've been under the mistaken impression that this was possible for decades now.
They are being paid for the rights, just as a scientist working for a company is being paid for his work (anything he discovers belongs to the company). Surrendering all of my rights to a piece I created without compensation (as the PSL demands) is quite different.
(you can even use the Planeshift engine!)
I would never. It's shit compared to the alternatives (and they seem to understand free software much better than the PS guys, not to mention that their webiste doesn't look like utter crap in Firefox--get your webmaster a book html).
*sigh* Part of the definition of capitalism a free economy. But a free economy doesn't mean that anyone can compete with anybody... or that trying to compete with projects like EQ2 (which cost $millions to make) without some serious developing power is just silly.
In other words, these guys are wasting their time, since anything they produce will be nothing compared to what real game makers can... and if they really were good designers, why are they working for free instead of making 6 digits working for Blizzard/Sony?
Oh boy, yet another dark game.
Why must all these games be made from shades of brown and grey, where you always end up squinting at the screen?
Is it really so hard to make bright, easy to see games like Serious Sam 2?
I called the license fascist, not the people.
Attacking a wrong isn't the same as attacking the one who did it.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
I can still license work I contribute to a GPL project anyway I wish.
I can supply code to a GPL project (e.g. Linux kernel) and keep the copyright, but license it to them under the GPL. I can then go to a proprietary company and license it to them on a license which allows them to use the code in a product which itself has a restrictive license (e.g. Windows).
The people who I licensed it to via the GPL have those rights and responsibilities, the ones I proprietary licensed it to have the rights and restrictions associated with it.
Dual licensing is OK.
Now if you are talking about assigning copyright to the FSF, that is another story. I assume they license it back to you via the GPL and maybe some extra rights.
Assigning copyright to the FSF is something I'd have trouble doing personally.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
Actually GeorgeD is the music/sound leader now, and has been for about 3 months or so. He and several others have about 80MB of their music in the CB release and most people think it is quite good. I know you're pretty picky though. :-)
They did all the sfx also.
No, my point was that Planeshift is not about PKing, so people being annoyed (and annoying others) cause they expect PKing is a bad thing.
How we know is more important than what we know.
http://icarus.uic.edu/~ssenne1/
it even has a nice script that will download and compile almost every thing. In linux.
What goes around comes around, kid.
It's a free open-source game, hosted on Sourceforge, they use Linux to develop, and they don't even offer the download in Bittorrent format ?
Why should a user have to do the downloading and seeding while it would make much more sense if the Planeshift guys did that themselves ? They should take down the 200 MB direct download file, start a tracker and a seeding client and offer it as a torrent only !!
anyways, good luck to ya
Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley
Then they should think about it more becuase like with coding making a truly original work is next to impossible, all of us are standing on the shoulders of giants so to speak. So the ones taking liberally from the ones that co\ame before should maybe think about trying to give something back as well. ;-)