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TiVo Moves to Bypass Cable
Thomas Hawk writes "TiVo is throwing in the towel on cable. According to CEO Mike Ramsay, 'offering service through one of the primary cable platforms is not the best way to grow our business at this time, because the economics are not very attractive, instead, we have decided to embrace the PC as our friend.'
This may add to the complexity of an already convoluted message that TiVo has been criticized for being unable to articulate to the masses. In the same article TiVo says it plans to introduce a new line of recorders that will accept CableCards. The company has declined to say when new machines will be introduced or how much they will cost. Most significantly, there is still no elaboration as to whether this new standalone box will be able to record cable or satellite HDTV."
What is a cable card?
A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned to walk forward. -- FDR
What's it do? If you don't hook it up to cable or satellite (unless you get a special card), it just becomes a fancy hard drive in a fancy box? Why do I need one again?
Tivo's recent actions have left me pretty convinced that they're lost. They don't seem to have a cohesive business plan on how they are going to fend off all the "generic" pvr/dvr's that come free with cable or satellite service, or for the onslaught of PC based solutions.
Tivo certainly has refinement and ease of use in its court, but I can see that eroding quickly. They are having to keep adding new features under the same pricing model just to stay competetive.
Long live Tivo...
Jerry
http://www.syslog.org/
I predict that the 2005 ces devices introduced will beat tivo at its own game.
Dvd recorders with hard disks cost $399 now (excluding the buggy $250 ILO one at Wal-Mart). By the end of the 2005, they should cost $225.
It is like the 5mp name brand (canon, nikon, etc) digital cameras. They cost $400 just before Christmas 2003 and then dropped $100 or more by Christmas 2004.
How are they doing this without reverse engineering the cable companies card info? Are they working together with them?
http://www.immigrantornot.com/
Click here. Thanks to NY Times Link Generator. :)
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
I doubt this is what Tivo will do. but, how would this work. Tivo could act like a cable provider, but use the internet as the transfer medium instead of coaxial cable. Networks could offer tivo shows which they could offer to their users. The users could watch the shows at any time based on their choosing. The super small cable channels (Outdoor life network, knitting central...) would love this. ? ... profit
"brxref
But who cares? I don't want this to degenerate into some sort of "my tv show is the greatest" rah rah session, but what could possibly be on tv that is so good that it warrants recording?
It's not like tv became garbage overnight. It's been pretty bad for a while. What shows are there today that in 10 or 15 years people will be reminiscing about? Where are the Knight Riders, the Happy Days, the Sledge Hammers?
I look at the spring lineup and can't find a single thing that warrants shelling out the cash for something to record this trash. Am I watching the wrong channels?
'offering service through one of the primary cable platforms is not the best way to grow our business at this time, because the economics are not very attractive, instead, we have decided to embrace the PC as our friend.'
Translation: Guys, we have not posted a profit yet and our doors have been open almost 8 years. We have got to do something FAST! Drop the cable, push the DirecTV DVR and extend functionality to the PC fast. Otherwise we are going to lose more investors.
I like my Tivo, but I wish these cats would figure out some way to make a profit.
that is so attractive to companies?
Boss: "Hey! Wow, everyone sure did love feature x and y."
Engineer, proudly thumbing suspenders: "Yes sir, we really hit the nail on the head!"
Boss, now turning to glare at the engineer: "Pack your bags johnson. If we don't tolerate your kind here"
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
What TIVO needs is a new box with a midget inside that does all of my work, so I have time to watch TV!
I think this is the ultimate acknowledgement that they have been unsucessful getting the cable companies to license / resell their technology. Tivo's obviously been trying to make themselves less threatening to content vendors by limiting PC interoperability. But, since "big cable" is for the most part not going with Tivo for DVR, the incentives for Tivo to kiss their asses has gone away.
Yes, it's a desperate attempt to stay in business... Tivo has realized that, aside from DirecTV, they're going to have to sell their own units on their own merits, and that they'd better close the gap in PC interoperability. Let's hope it's not too late.
Of course, it will be a cold day in hell before any of these new features makes it to my DirecTivo... DirecTV is as strict as any about content control.
-R
If I were Tivo, I'd try to set up deals where shows can be distributed over the Internet via a BitTorrent-like protocol. IMO, this is one of the easiest ways in which they'd be able to maintain a viable business strategy. There are several advantages to doing this: 1. Low maintenance costs. Aside from hosting the tracker and a high-speed seeder, the bandwidth required would be extremely low. Also, since the torrents would be distributed only to Tivos, they wouldn't have the MPAA or anyone like that worrying about PC users getting a hold of them. 2. Tivo Series2 models (the standalone units) already have all of the hardware required. In case you don't know, Tivos can be networked via a USB slot in the back. Though the hardware is actually USB 2.0, the drivers are 1.0. They'd simply need to change this. Also, a software update would be necessary, but Tivo already does this on a regular basis. 3. Money, money, money. As mentioned by someone already, small networks would jump on the chance to have this type of distribution. In fact, this opportunity would even turn Tivo into a cable-like provider, maybe even putting them into the black again. Time after time again, I've seen posts on Slashdot where many pine for such a television distribution medium. I just hope Tivo sees the golden opportunity that its new strategy affords.
Last year, Tivo announced TivoToGo at CES 2004. They annouced availablity this past Monday (Jan 3, 2005), and a very few people have got the new 7.1 software required for TivoToGo at the moment (check out the Tivo Community).
Tivo showed a demo of a CableCard 1.0 demo at CES today. They plan to offer a CC HD Tivo in 2006. They needed to get this cable card Tivo out in APRIL 2005, not 2006!!! CableCard is an open standard anyone can implement, Tivo or anyone else doesnt need permission from the cable companies.
There is only one caveat with their 2006 annoucement - there are a few limitations that Tivo might be waiting for CC 2.0 to come about for. The first big thing is that now CableCard 1.0 is unidirectional (from the cable co to your box). CC 1.0 is also limited to one tuner (analog or digital channel) per physical cable card. CableCard 2.0 is bidirection (so the Tivo box can talk to the cable company, allows PPV-on-demand, interactive guide data, etc), and CC2.0 provides up to 5 tuners per physical cable card.
I would bet that if Tivo is waiting until 2006 to release their CableCard HiDef-capable Tivo, it damn well better be CableCard 2.0. Tivo can provide splitters inside the box to allow for anywhere from 2, 3, up to 5 tuners. I doubt most people have a practical need for 5 tuners UNLESS... (this is my wish) Tivo enhances their Home Media Option to allow smart scheduling, so that you can have one SuperTivo and several client Tivos (pass through tuner, no Hard disk) that just stream content from the SuperTivo over a home network.
The Doormat
If you're not outraged, then you're not paying attention.
The original poster seems a bit confused. The CableCard version they are working on is their solution for cable TV systems.
CableCard is the open standard for digital cable. It allows a TV to work with a cable system without needing a seperate cable box. The CableCard is a PCMCIA card that works with the cable security system to allow viewing of premium channels, PPV, etc. CableCard support is currently available in several high end HDTVs (it's only in the high end units now, because it requires a built-in HD tuner).
The new Tivo will have dual tuners, and will support QAM256, for full HDTV viewing/recording. It will be very similar in functionality to the HD DirecTivo (dual tuners - record two programs while watching a third).
There are some pictures of it here.
I have a Tivo. I like Tivo, but it's nothing more than a souped up VCR. It's an incremental step, not a quantum leap. Any idiot who sat down and thought about it could make it better. Start by adding in IMDB integration. Just put a little link in the listing info. Half the time I watch a movie, I'm looking something up on IMDB using my laptop anyway. You don't need to bloat the thing, but stuff like that seems like such a natural fit. If you're willing to pay for a Tivo, you probably have broadband of some sort, why not make good use of it?
I've researched this issue and the headline of the article is correct. TiVo is moving to bypass cable but not by throwing the whole system away and not allowing you to record cable BUT by integrating a cable card into a standalone TiVo box. This eliminates the need for a cable decoder. Their intent is to differentiate themselves further from the cheap knockoff PVRs that the cable companies are deploying. As an avid TiVo user myself I assure you that TiVo will not be dropping the capability to record cable programming.
l ?type=technologyNews&storyID=7252458/
Here is an article that better describes what TiVo is doing: http://olympics.reuters.com/audi/newsArticle.jhtm
More information and analysis will most likely be available at my source for TiVo information http://www.tivoblog.com/ tomorrow.
They were so busy allowing 'content' providers to decide what features to include they forgot to keep an eye on the market. The law about timeshifting was on there side so have the balls to put on the features that will keep at the head of the pack.
They could have been selling branded TiVos to cable companies, just like the DirecTV TiVo. The should have encouraged the hackable TiVo. Since anyone can make a pvr they should have made it more open so they would be the M$ of pvrs. Now it seems they are moving to put TiVo on the PC, something that people had been wanting for years.
I knew it was a bad sign when Series 2 DID NOT come with an ethernet port, my god; just so they could sell licenses to TiVo certified USB ethernet cards.
Plus the company seems to have moved away from the geeky silicon valley feel, if it was ever there to the greedy dumbass business types who want as much control as possible but forgot what made them successful.
You cannot even set up a TiVo without a phone line or internet connection to connect to them. Something as simple as switching from cable source to antenna source has become a pain.
On the Series 1 you could do manual recordings without a subscription. My nephew got Series 2 and you cannot do anything but switch channels without a subscription. That kind of crap annoys the hell out of me. They want absolute control of everything and still want their hand in your pocket after you buy the device.
It was fun while it lasted
Hopefully some company will make a device that did what the TiVo didn't, or maybe they'll just hack the Xbox 2.
Euphemism, what is that a euphemism for something.
Peace
All cable companies do it right now, every single one of them. They probably don't advertise it because they'd rather you not use cablecard (they make a killing off of you leasing or buying the digital cable box off of them.) They were federally mandated to carry the cablecards by June 1st 2004. I already know for certain cox is doing it, and they don't advertise it at all. The only way you can find out about it is if you dig around their website.
Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
They could try to move into the Windows arena and make software to compete with Windows Media PC. Sure there are Linux programs that act like TiVo, but Windows is bigger and that could carry them. Vendors could build these Media PCs and put TiVo software on there instead of Windows pvr software. Then they could build interoperability with the set-top.
TiVo is chasing volume, and with a tech device the best way to do that is put as many features people want in it and also allow for newer features to be added, some not even from the company itself.
Look at the way they half heartedly added the Media Option; pictures and mp3s, who cares.
They could save themselves, but do they want to.
For God's sake, put a damn fast ethernet port in the device.
Euphemism, what is that a euphemism for something.
I am also a big TiVo fan. I'm on my second unit, having given the first away to my sister to spread the love. I agree that a lot of their recent moves have been pretty worrying. I actually started putting together a MythTV box when the banner-ad-while-fast-forwarding announcement hit.
:) just sweetens the deal, and will let me do literally everything I want with my TV content.
a -great-product, call it Apple Syndrome; but if they can continue to provide the excellent service and interface, and find ways to deliver more and better content, I'm pretty sanguine about their chances long term. ...and I guess I'll just have to learn to put up with the banner ads.
After some thought, I've decided to give them the benefit of the doubt for the time being. TiVo has a lot going for it. The user interface is brilliantly executed, both simple and powerful enough for anyone. TiVoToGo, especially if they get on the ball with Mac support and DVD burning (hopefully Mac DVD burning, as well, but I'm a realist
A bit more on topic WRT TFA, I'm pretty psyched for the Netflix/TiVo thing to actually materialize. There was a great quote on that topic from a bigwig at Netflix to the effect of (paraphrasing) "we always intended to deliver movies via the internet, we didn't name the company 'DVDs By Mail'." It says something about TiVo that it is the first product out there to fit the bill as a delivery vehicle for that dream.
As far as the Cable Cards and today's announcement go, it seems pretty sane to me. The cablecos are clearly dragging their feet on opening the set top boxes. Every day they do so, their crappy, barely usable DVR units and WinMCE gain ground on TiVo. So they have to do something to differentiate themselves in the meantime, until they can compete on a level playing field. And besides, they can always hijack the signal from the cableco STB just like they do now, so what's the loss (never-ending wait for HD aside)?
So I don't know, TiVo is one of those perpetually-going-out-of-business-companies-with-
Yeah, this is my first post.
Folks seem a bit confused here. Tivo aren't talking about dropping support for recording programs off cable.
Find someone who has digital cable *and* Tivo. The only way to decode digital cable is through the cable company's crappy set-top box. This means you are also stuck with their crappy program guide, poor MPEG decoding, and sub-par signal quality. To make things even more fun, the Tivo must resort to things like IR blasters to change the channel. When you tell Tivo to change the channel, it has to send fake button presses to the digital cable set-top box to change channels.
Go find someone with this setup. Try it. It sucks.
When Tivo talk about breaking their dependence on the cable company, what they mean is to break this dependence on cable company set-top boxes to decode digital cable. The way to do this is with CableCard, which provides all of the decryption needed to decrypt and decode digital cable signals. This *includes* pay channels as well. In other words, you'd be able to use the Tivo *as* your digital cable box, in addition to getting the nice Tivo program guide and DVR capabilities.
It's definitely a very good thing.
Oh yeah, and I got a chuckle out of all those posts saying that the free PC linux/windows DVR programs are going to take over the market. Yeah, I can't wait to see my dad install linux on a PC, install a PVR card and appropriate drivers, and get it all working. In fact, I bet he's thrilled about the idea of having a PC on all the time in the living room. Geez, he can barely find the play button to get a DVD going, folks. If you don't sell my dad and tens of millions like him, you don't get the market.
- Chris
PC: Allready existing, you're on /. so that's a good assumption
TV Tuner / remote: http://www.dvcentury.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Scr een=PROD&Product_Code=96-989-7134&Category_Code=ET T
Cost - $36.00
TV Output: Almost all recent video cards have S-Video out, even the cheap ones.
Software: http://store.snapstream.com/btv-3-both.html
Cost - $69.00
Hard drive for video:http://www.liquidationetc.com/31/15840.htm?4 21: $48.00
The rest is relevant to how spiffy you want your setup in wiring but in this example assuming your TV is within 50 feet of the PC (for apartment dwellers like myself::
$153 dollars plus the price of connection cables.
I own a Sony SAT-T60 DirecTV receiver that is also a tivo unit. Since I will never go back to cable (well, maybe only when Verizon starts offering it via fiber) because of crappy signal and few channels, buying a satellite receiver with Tivo built-in was a logical choice: :)
...I can't say the same about other mfg's remotes.
1. Signal from satellite comes in digital format and is saved that way to tivo's internal hard drive. Try doing that with your home-grown video capture; going from digital to analog to digital defeats the purpose of getting satellite in the first place!
2. With directTV tivo you can tape TWO channels at the same time while watching something else that was "taped" before.
3. You can pause live tv, go answer the phone, door, microwave your dinner, etc. and then resume play from where you paused it.
4. Wife or girlfirned rudely interrupted you? (while you were watching the game winning goal/shot/touchdown?) NO problem! don't get mad, just rewind - Tivo always keeps 30 mins of the channel(s) you are watching in a buffer.
5. Tivo units run Linux and are very hackable, software and hardware-wise. You can add or replace its hard drive to increase capacity, add network card to use broadband to pull down guide data snf updates via the Internet (instead of telephone call) Many people have modded their Tivo boxes to display weather, run webserver so you can connect from work and schedule stuff and view other stats...like what your kids are watching right now
6. With that network card installed on series 1 and wireless 802.11 usb adapter on series 2 tivo you can pull down shows to your desktop, laptop or xbox (with minor changes to os on tivo)
7. You can skip all those annoying commercials - you will save about 15 minutes per 1 hour show. Once you get used to this feature (takes about 5 minutes) you will not understand why your inlaws' tv cannot do this...
8. Ecellent search capability - want to see a movie with Angelina Jolie or Harrison Ford? Type it in and let tivo search up to two weeks of programming guide data. Found it but it's playing at 3am on Friday? No problem, with a click of a button you can add it to be taped for you.
9. Small form factor and lower power consumption. Sure, you can probably get most of these features by taking a small pc and adding two tuner cards, sound card or mobo with optical out jack for sound, another dedicated hard drive, rd receiver and remote control but you will still need another box to get the satellite singal. Less hardware, especially the ugly pc kind is a plus.
Finally, the money you'll save by using a low power device vs 300W pc will probably be enough to offset the $5 Tivo fee that DirectTV charges their customers. (A LOT of people bitch and moan about five bucks but ignore how much power and $ their home grown pc/tivo-clone will waste. Building something that will look attrative in your living room will cost quiet a bit as well.
P.S. Person who designed Sony SAT-T60's remote control is a genius!
No, hacked DirecTV is different. With a Dish PVR, you have to pull the drives, you don't with DirecTiVos. Additionally, the format of the data stream is far better with DirecTV than Dish.
Myth can be used to control analog capture devices and (I think) some European MPEG2 systems. Currently, you've only got 3 options for digital capture of digital signals in North America: hacked Dish, hacked DirecTiVo (SD or HD) or spoofed HD.
What are you thinking Myth will let you do? Are you really thinking about capturing an analog signal instead of the raw satellite feed?
Here's a Registration Free Link for those who want to read the article selling their soul.
Among the goodies folks are finding is an undocumented one: A built in web server.
No, apparently not Apache but something else, what counts is it's there, it works, and it allows download of XML files containing show listings and the shows themselves. To get to it follow these steps:
- Sign up for an early download of TiVo 7.1. Must have a Series 2, no DVD burner built-in (player is ok), DirecTV models aren't handled by TiVo. Basically TiVo Service Numbers beginning with 110, 130, 140, 230, 240, 264, 540, & 590.
- While on TiVo's web site note your password and the "Media Access Key" (MAK) for your TiVo. You'll need these later.
- Wait for 7.1 to be downloaded and installed on your machine. Continually forcing reconnects will not hurry this, indeed the cumulative server load by that sort of thing will only delay the rollout.
- Once you've got 7.1 (it's downloaded, installed, you've rebooted) point a web browser at https://your.tivo's.ip.address/nowplaying/index.h
t ml . For user supply tivo and the password is your "MAK".
- Go wild.
What, big deal? OK, how about pulling your video off your TiVo, the much-feared video extraction ?Turns out you need to have TiVo's DirectShow decryption filter installed, and that only comes with their TiVo Desktop v.2 which is, for now, Windows 2K/XP only. You also need a decent mpeg2 codec, which MS doesn't include in Windows. TiVo recommends a couple of commercial ones but there are also free ones out there too. Or, you might have one that came with DVD software.
However, contrary to TiVo's marketing, once a .tivo file is pulled through this it can be edited, saved, even burned to DVD, with nothing more special needed. That's right, no waiting for Sonic's soon-to-be-shipped software, no magic mojo involved, trusty ole TMPGEnc and Nero and all the rest are perfectly fine. Indeed once passed through the magic DirectShow filter (and your password supplied) the .tivo files are free to be rendered into a more normal mpeg2 files.
Sure the $50 "custom" software will probably do more with automation, labeling, and such, but I'm betting nothing that can't be whipped up in a few days by TiVo's customers, likely beating the Sonic software to the punch.
Pretty Kewl, eh?
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
That's what the cable card is for.
The FCC mandated that HDTV as a compatable protocol. Currently "digital content" is mpeg2 streams encoded with propriatory codes that force customers to buy or rent a specific brand of set top boxes to decode it.
FCC doesn't like that. It's like if you have Qwest as a telephone provider you'd be forced to buy a Qwest telephone in addition to the costs of installation and service fees.
So HDTV is designed so that everybody is forced to provide compatable content.
Cable companies wanted to encrypt the data still to prevent cable piracy. FCC relented and said they can encrypt HOWEVER they are required by law to offer cable cards to all their customers so that customers are not forced into buying extra hardware beyond their TV set.
And then they dictated that beyond a certain point (I think july of last year) that all HDTV-capable TV sets that cost over 3000 dollars have to have a cable card slot so that customers can use the cable cards.
The actual cable card is a PCMCIA formfactor card that just contains the hardware needed to decrypt the cable company's signals.
Cable companies right now are trying to convince people still to buy set top boxes siting extra TiVO-like features like on-demand viewing and the ability to subscribe to Pay-per-view, which cable cards do not need to provide functionality to communicate back thru the cable line to unlock those services. They are just needed to view encrypted HDTV broadcasting.
So that way if somebody released a Linux compatable HDTV card that had a Cable card slot (using firmware to protect the FCC flag rules like Wifi cards use firmware to protect illegal frequency boosting or manipulation) then stuff like MythTV can be used to record HDTV shows and get all 200+ channels that currently is only aviable thru propriatory cable-boxes.
Microsoft probably hopes nobody will do this so that he can sell propriatory software to work with MCE in cahoots with the cable companies to lock out competitors.
I hate to buy something and still have to pay a monthly fee to use it ($99 for TiVo, then $12.95/mo), so I looked at the alternatives. I can pay the lifetime fee ($299+99= $398), buy a non service based PVR (Panasonic DMR-E85HS for $420) that uses TV-Guide and burns DVDs, or I can rent one from the cable company with no commitment. I figured what the hell, I can try that for a month, its only like $10...
I didn't get that far. First I would have to upgrade to "Digital Cable" adding $13 to my $42/mo standard cable. Then I have to pay $10/mo to rent the DVR, THEN I have to pay an EXTRA $5/mo to USE the DVR. For a grand total of $28/mo for a DVR, plus $42/mo for cable...
I think I'll just buy the Panasonic so I can archive shows, get a free guide, and it will still work even after all the companies file for bankruptcy. Any other suggestions that don't entail a system that requires my wife to wait for it to boot up?
They blew it in a way.
Comcast is rolling out their PVR solution and it kicks ass pretty heavily. The box I got from them costs me $5 a month, no additional fees.
* The software is good
* The quality rocks
* HDTV capable
* Digital Cable capable
* Dual Tuner
yeah yeah, I can't open it / hack it and so on - but that wasn't my plan anyway. It >works, works well and cost me next to nothing for dual tuner capability. Hell, for $5 a month I'll probably get two more for the other screens in the house and be able to pause them if I want.
--> Fight tyranny and repression.... read
What a Geek Wants:
1. A PVR that will grab your shows and is useful as an appliance for day2day usage. Include a DVD burner for mom and dad to archive their own stuff without using a computer and network. Include HD abilities.
2. A way to transfer the recorded data to a server in a format that I can use and convert. Preferably, without using TiVo's proprietary software. This will probably be sniffed and hacked a few months after TiVoToGo is available to many users.
3. Some way to organize all that video onto a Serial ATA RAID SAN where I can archive a ton of data. Have the ability to burn DVD's or convert to DiVX, etc. Edit the content to strip commercials, etc. Or more likely a TiVo box with 4-5 hot swap drive bays on the front.
4. Support for Linux, BSD, and OS X...
5. Bypass cable content providers by using BitTorrent built into a TiVo! Just do the same thing a cable company does but instead of needing a cable infrastructure or Satellites stream it over the Internet using BitTorrent as the transfer mechanism and an XML TiVo program guide. Imagine your TiVo uploading bits and pieces of your recorded shows to those people who didn't record it or watch it live. (increase the buffer on live TV from 30min upto 2 hours and store it until it's overwritten by an actual recorded show or when space is low - BitTorrent upload it's bits to other TiVo users) Whatever's popular will stream over the Internet at faster and faster speeds). Increase the standard disk space on the TiVo with a couple of those new 500GB hard disks. Encourage people to not delete shows on their TiVo as it will help the community to share the data via BitTorrent.
This whole BitTorrent concept is about to peak, there are VC companies just looking for the right company to back with an Internet delivery mechanism. TiVo could blow away the competition and probably get sued but it's coming. I would pay TiVo for television content if they can do it effectively.