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Iran Cracks Down on Internet Sites

Dan Brickley writes "It appears that Iranian ISPs have been ordered to block a large number of popular Web sites, including weblogging, community, chat and email services. Web (particularly weblog) use has been increasing rapidly in Iran, with 64000+ weblogs published by Iranians via various sites. As of today, if the news is correct, the majority of these may be inaccessible to their authors, as will the email (eg. Yahoo) services they use to communicate with friends, colleagues and family worldwide. See stop.censoring.us and hoder.com for more details. The newly expanded blocks include PersianBlog, Blogger and the Google-hosted Orkut 'social networking' site, where Iranians come third after Brazil and USA, representing 7% of all users. How can we get our Iranian friends back in the Web?"

70 of 866 comments (clear)

  1. Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    We could invade and liberate them. We're right next door. Then the Iranians could write about how happy they are on their blogs.

    1. Re:Well by Schemat1c · · Score: 4, Funny

      We could invade and liberate them. We're right next door. Then the Iranians could write about how happy they are on their blogs.

      Take a look at our current troop deployment. If this was a game of Risk it would be inevitable. Of course we should hurry up before Iran gets another card.

      --

      "Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everybody agrees that it is old enough to know better." - Unknown
  2. For closed societies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Complete control of information is required to stay in power. Lets hope that the people can get around this.

    1. Re:For closed societies by mr100percent · · Score: 5, Informative
      Oooh a troll.

      Islam doesn't NEED instructions on how to act civilized.

      Colombia is 95% Catholic, yet they have a massive, massive drug problem. And they have terrorism too. Should I blame Christianity? How come Cocaine comes from the Catholic countries anyway? You won't see Iran manufacturing it anytime soon.

      The believers of Islam don't rape 72 virgins in heaven either. The virgins are only a minor perk of Paradise anyway.

      Fatwas aren't issued to anyone who questions Islam, but the Ayatollah of Iran said Salman Rushdie should be killed for purposely insulting the religion. That was his view, and other countries didn't second him.

      Female genital mutilation is not an Islamic thing. It's an African thing. African Pagans still do it, and so do some African and Egyptian Christians.

      You remember people dancing in the street? Iran and many other Muslim countries held candlelight vigils for the 9/11 victims. There was TONS of condemnations of terrorism from all over the globe and Islamic groups issue condemnations very often.

    2. Re:For closed societies by mickyflynn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Tim McVeigh didn't blow up the Alfred P. Murrow Federal Building Because he was Irish-Catholic. The various IRA/INLA groups and the UDA/UVF/et cetera aren't REALLY at it because of the Catholic/Protestant thing. That's a nationalism thing which happens to have the better part of each religious group on opposing sides (Wolfe Tone and Robert Emmet, for example, great Irish hereos, were Protestant). HOWEVER, Muhammed Atta et al DID crash planes into the World Trade Center and Pentagon BECAUSE they are Muslim. Face it, Jack and Mary aren't going to be hijacking aeroplanes or blowing them selves up in shopping malls any time soon. Muhammed Akbar is. Appologists always like to say "look! these people are fucked up and they're Christian!" Well guess what, boyo, FARC-EP isn't on a "jihad." They may have a political agenda (marxists), but not a religious one. When you look at the Middle East, religion and politics are the same bloody thing. Sure, not all muslims are terrorists. But the terrorists which attacked us and with which we are in pitched battle against are Muslim. Its the luck of the draw. We could be battling Basques right now like the Spanish. Basques don't have a religious reason for fighting. Its the same as the IRA -- they want their land back from the people who took it. The Isreali-Palestinian conflict is about getting fucked over on birthright and sibling rivalry with guns. But Bin Laden wants an Islamic state. Iran IS an Islamic state. Iran practicly invented islamic extreamist terrorism. Just thank God they haven't got a Michael Collins (not the astronaut).

    3. Re:For closed societies by CodeBuster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How come Cocaine comes from the Catholic countries anyway? You won't see Iran manufacturing it anytime soon.

      That's because cocaine doesn't grow very well in the Middle East. They grow opium poppies instead and supply the raw materials for the heroin trade in Europe and the United States. If the Iranian people truley wish to condemn terrorism then they need to start putting their money where their mouth is and not into the pockets of the terrorists. Iran is a state sponsor of terrorist organizations and if they continue funding radical madrassas, granting safe haven to terrorists, and sponsoring terrorist groups, then it is only a matter of time before they force another major confrontation with the west. They have sowed the wind with their support of terrorism and if they continue with their present policies then they will reap the whirlwind of our swift and sure response.

    4. Re:For closed societies by Abcd1234 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yet, the instructions are in there, and then they become law. Ever try to change a law that was implemented by God?

      As if this is unique to Islam? Shit, the Jews have the Torah, and there's a fundamentalist movement in Israel which believes the nation should live by it, stonings and all. Not to mention all those that defend the death penalty in the US based on the famous "an eye for an eye" phrase in the Bible.

      Seperation of Church and state is a really really good idea.

      It's just a damn shame that even the US seems to have forgotten that lesson.

      Again, what here is so unique about Islam?

      Of course, you know very simple and obvious fact. Yet you try to mislead people.

      Err, no, you just missed the point, which was: blaming the religion for the acts of a violent, self-righteous minority is simply unfair, whether it's in the Middle East or Central America. ie, blaming Catholicism for the Cocaine trade is as stupid as blaming Islam for the various acts of terrorism carried out in it's name.

      Excuse me? But did you just say someone SHOULD be killed for insulting a religon?

      Wow, nice deflection. The actual point, which you appear to have missed, is that only one religious leader called for the death of Salman Rushdie, and no other country agreed. Yes, believe it or not, the Ayatollah does not, in fact, speak for all of Islam. Shocking, I know. Much like all those terrorists don't, in fact, represent the vast majority of adherrants to Islam.

    5. Re:For closed societies by Hideyoshi · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Female genital mutilation is not an Islamic thing. It's an African thing. African Pagans still do it, and so do some African and Egyptian Christians.

      Bullshit. I come from Africa, and I can tell you for certain that genital mutilation is mostly practiced in my part of the world by Muslims.

      PS: Egyptians are Africans, last I checked. Let me guess - you're an Arab Muslim, right? Nothing like blaming the abjad ("darkies") for the failings others identify in your people, is there?

    6. Re:For closed societies by mr100percent · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Maybe the IRA groups aren't really at it because of Christianity issues. So how then can you spin around and say that Al Qaeda REALLY does it for Islam? Bin Laden said he wanted to punish America for Palestine (he sped up the deadline because of it), that sounds Political to me.

      No, "Jack and Mary" aren't going to carry out suicide attacks. But neither is your average "Muhammad Akbar." Are you saying those names as if each was a terrorist? First of all, not all terrorists who claim to be Muslim do suicide attacks. The FLN of Algeria didn't, and neither did the PLO. Suicide attacks are recent in that conflict. Second, many different terrorists have carried out suicide attacks; the Japanese Kamikaze, the Marxist Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka, etc.

      FARC is communist, they carry out terrorism in the name of their ideology. Bombings, hijackings, landmines, and guerilla warfare with the death of many many innocents, all justified by their communist agenda. No, its not a jihad, a TRUE Jihad in Islam would never stoop so low. Go read the stories of the sahaba and the hadith from the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) concerning the battles of Badr and Uhud and see what qualifies. Mainstream Islamic scholars around the world including in the West, like Hamza Yusuf and Tariq Ramadan, vocally condemn terrorism, they say it has no place in Islam.

      Bin Laden is doing what he does for political reasons. He's stated on numerous occasions that he is against the US for siding against the Palestinians, and he wants the US out of Saudi Arabia. Thats all political, and he gives it a religious overtone. The IRA does the same thing. Would they agree with you if you told them they weren't acting in a Christian manner? Al Qaeda would disagree with me if I told them they weren't acting Islamic, but who cares what they say if most of the rest of the world knows they are wrong.

      Iran claims to be an Islamic state, but the Sunnis may not agree with them. The Vatican city claims to be a Christian state, but the Protestants may not agree with them.

      How did Iran lead in terrorism? Aside from the hostage affair, I don't know what you're referring to. I didn't see them do acts like the PLO, and I didn't hear about them fighting with anyone other than Iraq.

    7. Re:For closed societies by mr100percent · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Cocaine doesn't grow well, but Opium does in areas like Afghanistan. Without the Taliban preventing it, billions of dollars worth of opium is pouring out from Afghanistan. Iran banned it since long ago. According to Iranian law, anyone who is found to be carrying more than 30 grams of heroin or 5 kilograms of opium could face the death penalty, although in recent years only a small percentage of these sentences have been carried out.

      The Iranian people are also against terrorism as well, they had spontaneous demonstrations and candlelight vigils on the streets after 9/11.

  3. Proxy by spac3manspiff · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They can use a proxy to surf the web.

    just my .01 cent

  4. So blogs are offline... by Dancin_Santa · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Go take a look at blogger some time. Seriously. There are a zillion blogs on there now, it updates so fast that you could post your own blog and not make it to the "Latest Updates" page and catch your post before more than 500 new items scrolled it off the screen.

    If everyone has a voice, no one really has a voice. Any single voice will be drowned out by many thousands of "Gee, this is my blog, I thought it would be a good idea to start one because my cat is so cute. I'll post pictures of my cat and I love Jesus."

    The main thing is that the Iranians have access to medical information, educational information, and worldwide news outlets. None of those are being squashed, even by the fundamental, right-wing Muslim leadership. They know that having good quality information is key to improving the quality of life in their country.

    Dissent is the only thing prohibited, but I doubt there is any country in which real dissent is permitted.

    1. Re:So blogs are offline... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny
      Even in America, the second one will invite the secret police to your door.
      Bullshit. All it'll get you is... tenure
    2. Re:So blogs are offline... by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 3, Insightful
      21st century equivalent of a lynching

      I despise comparisons like this. It's nothing like a lynching. A mob torturing someone to death -- that's a lynching. It has really happened in this country, and fairly recently too. They're just now getting around to prosecuting some of the most notorious cases from time of the civil rights movement. Making this kind of comparison, especially when none of the people we're talking about have actually been silenced in a larger sense, cheapens the word.

      Since real lynchings (as opposed to individual hate crimes) are practically non-existent these days, we arguably have more free speech than ever before. Of course there's still some amount of risk involved. That will never be completely eliminated outside some utopia that can never exist in a world populated by real people. But we're very close. The Internet, and the essential anonymity that comes with it, is a very much a boon in this case.

      As for the rest, I'm afraid the tinfoil hat clashes with your jacket.

      --
      And the brethren went away edified.
  5. Orkut by evel+aka+matt · · Score: 3, Informative

    I wouldn't be surprised if a fair number of Orkut users don't miss their "Iranian friends" as much as you might thing. There's been a lot of bitching about them and the Brazillians from the English-speaking Orkut users. Can't say whether the complaints have any merit or not, but I've heard them in more than one place.

    1. Re:Orkut by fbform · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yeouch! Language wars on Orkut are quite the worst type of flamewar. It usually doesn't affect the communities I'm part of (mostly college-based), but many general interest communities aren't able to speak a common tongue even if they advocate one in the community rules. The trouble is usually when there's a serious discussion in language X, and someone gatecrashes with a message in language Y. All messages after that are in language Y, and nobody is able to read the whole discussion and make sense of it.

      On a different note, it had been several weeks since I checked my Orkut account. I logged in today (this story on Slashdot reminded me) and found I could not do anything without the server returning internal error messages. If this keeps up, it may soon die of its own accord, language and Netcraft be damned.

      --
      Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
  6. A distributed, random web proxy? by IO+ERROR · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Some kind of open distributed web proxy might do the trick. Not unlike a spammer's botnet, but run voluntarily. Use something like Coral or random proxy servers for GET requests, and random proxy servers for POST and PUT requests.

    "The Internet reacts to censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore (frequently misattributed to Howard Rheingold)

    --
    How am I supposed to fit a pithy, relevant quote into 120 characters?
    1. Re:A distributed, random web proxy? by Boronx · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Whatever happened to Freenet? I'm not sure if it's an "open ditributed proxy" but wasn't the whole point of it to solve this kind of problem?

    2. Re:A distributed, random web proxy? by spikedvodka · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Some kind of open distributed web proxy might do the trick.

      Sounds good, how about tor http://tor.freehaven.net/
      if a single (or even multiple) tor proxies get blocked, it will just go through a different one.

      it works nicely for me

      hrmmm... I wonder if it would get through the "great firewall of China" just as easily

      --
      I will not give in to the terrorists. I will not become fearful.
    3. Re:A distributed, random web proxy? by cavebear42 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Technical problems require technical solutions.
      Political problems requre political solutions.

      Don't use law to stop file sharing in america.
      Don't use proxys to stop legal action in Iran.

      THe problem is a political one and we need a political answer. The people of Iran need to make it heard that they want blogs and such. Only they can secure their own freedoms. The best thing that we as a free people can do is offer assistance in helping their government learn that free speach is good.

      We could invade Iran (again) or we could train Iranians to hack but the reality of the issue is that beyond this, all we will do is put a band aid on a huge wound.

    4. Re:A distributed, random web proxy? by IO+ERROR · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Tor has an excellent approach, but I couldn't figure out from their site how they distribute their distribution servers. Each client pulls a list of proxies from a central server. All you have to do to block this out is to block the central servers from which the proxy lists are served. Got a workaround?

      --
      How am I supposed to fit a pithy, relevant quote into 120 characters?
    5. Re:A distributed, random web proxy? by praedor · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What a bunch of braindead wankers you all are (mostly, there are a few thinking humans evident in the postings). Too many of you are just soooo willing to send me to fight in wars all over bejesus for yet another regime change.


      I, as a soldier, ain't buying. It is neither our right nor our responsibility to force our version of Halliburton "democracy" down ANYONE'S throat. Newsflash: Iraq was and remains a frickin' fiasco. It is a bust. It has made us up to be a joke.


      Initially, no doubt the powers that be in the ME were all a quiver over our illegal and unjustfiable invasion of Iraq. Shortly thereafter, when it became obvious that we were and are powerless to actually control the country and are now well and FULLY bogged down, they began laughing. There is jack squat we can do ANYWHERE else. Forget, absolutely, about invading Iran. Iran would be harder by a long shot than Iraq. It is twice as large, twice as mountainous, has a larger and complete working military, and its citizens would NOT in any way welcome us as "liberators for Halliburton".


      If N. Korea decided to make a big go for S. Korea, we're screwed. We do NOT have the teeth to deal with any other military goo-gaw. China makes a move on Taiwan? Nothing we can do short of abandoning Iraq to the inevitable chaos and violence that WILL control that country for the foreseeable future (OUR fault) and trying to throw a bunch of tired, overburdened troops into yet a bigger and worse conflict.


      Get off your frickin' war wagons. I'm sick of this shit from a bunch of snotnosed ignorant punks who don't serve, never served, and never intend to serve. Shut the fuck up. I SERVED and I STILL serve and I'm tired of you wackjob idiots talking tough by throwing MY life around for nothing. Bite my camouflaged military ass you damn cowards and candyasses. YOU take up arms and invade every country that offends your wackjob Christian belief system or offends your desire to make capitalistic money off other people's resources and countries. YOU do it but leave the legitimate and honorable soldiers to do what they're supposed to do: protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign or domestic. That's our job, not overthrowing every dictator that annoys Exxon or Halliburton.

      --
      In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
  7. Re:Beat me to it: by ravenspear · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Corporations would never stand for blocking of site sthat they could advertise on.

    If such an asinine action were ever undertaken by the US government, I can only hope that the corporations wouldn't be needed to do something about it. Of course, this sentiment presumes that at least part of our government is still "of the people."

  8. Censorship by omeomi · · Score: 5, Interesting

    How can we tell them not to censor the web when we censor just about everything here at home. I mean, yes, the web is pretty well uncensored in the US, but TV isn't, and neither is radio. In fact, there's no free non-censored medium in America. You have to pay for Internet, Cable, Satellite TV, or Satellite Radio in order to have the right to free speech in a country who's first amendment to the constitution guarantees that right. How can we expect Iran to have free speech/expression if we don't really even support it?

    1. Re:Censorship by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Uh, you're free to speak, and you're free to write. The broadcast airwaves belong to everyone, which is why they're government regulated. For access to them, broadcasters agree to certain terms. No one forces them to use that medium.

    2. Re:Censorship by ThisIsFred · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your constitutional right makes clear that the federal government can't abridge your right to speak your mind, especially about "grievance" with your government. It doesn't say you have access to megawatt broadcasts for nothing. And there is a free non-censored medium: Hoofing it and talking to people face-to-face. Second to that, I'll take the Internet. While it isn't free, it's damn cheap, and arguably more relevant than TV or radio.

      Also, you contends that "we don't really even support" free speech. I can't think of any outstandingly unconstitutional abridgements of free speech besides The Sedition Act and the Feingold-McCain campaign finance reform bill, one of which was repealed. Clue me in here, please.

      --
      Fred

      "A fool and his freedom are soon parted"
      -RMS
    3. Re:Censorship by omeomi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Oh, by the way, I guess I'm expanding the notion to include free expression. If you want to limit it to freedom of *speech*, how about the fines that the FCC levies against radio broadcasters. Yes, such as Howard Stern, but also others. Or, how about Lenny Bruce?

  9. Re:How? by Surazal · · Score: 3, Informative

    I'll bite.

    Invasion is one solution. I do not favor it as being "the" solution, but you know, when I look back on Bush's last four years, I am firmly convinced he invaded the wrong country. Hussein was a wussy. Easy pickings. I would have voted for Bush if he had invaded any other member of the Axis of Evil. Iraq? Bah.

    Of course, the cards have been laid down, and we have a far more dangerous regime to worry about because it was felt more expedient to settle old scores than deal with the issues that are relavent today, like Iran and N. Korea's ACTIVE development of WMD's, rather than Iraq's now proven theoretical development of such weapons.

    Sorry for the rant. I had a bad week.

    --
    --- Journals are boring; Go to my web page instead
  10. Re:Revolution in Iran by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 5, Informative
    Wasn't there a bit of a student uprising in the late 90's in Iran? What happened to that?

    July 1999. The mullahs slapped them down. Hard.

    Interestingly, Iran was the only middle eastern country to have spontaneous pro US demonstrations after 9/11/2001.

  11. Re:zerg by john.r.strohm · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Short answer: Who cares?

    The conventional wisdom is that the Iranian people overthrew the Shah back in the late 1970s, when his regime became too secular and too iron-handed. They then established an Islamic republic, under the ayatollahs.

    A few years later, when there were still Iranian students in US colleges and universities, the students whose predecessors had been frantically demonstrating against the Shah were themselves frantically demonstrating against Ayatollah Khomeini and his cronies. Some things don't change.

    When, and if, the Persians decide they are sick and tired of oppressive government in the name of religious purity, they will remember how to fix that problem. Until they do that, it is THEIR problem, not ours.

  12. Iranians our friends now? by liangzai · · Score: 2, Funny

    Well, just bomb them into democracy. This worked in Vietnam, Korea and Iraq, so I guess another campaign of liberation and christening by our American friends will do the trick once more.

  13. Re:Help them? by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 3, Insightful
    You're wrong about Iraq (IMHO). The majority of the people, again IMHO, do want 'freedom and democracy'. The problem is the very voacal and very armed minority. They would like things to either a) go back to the way they were under Saddam, and they were in power...or b) become the power. They don't want to take a chance on a free and open election, because they know they'd lose badly.

    The rest of the population would just like to live their lives. Go to work, have kids, homes, watch TV, go to church/mosque...like the rest of the world. But they can't, because of that small, vocal, armed minority of asshats.

  14. Re:How? by jim_v2000 · · Score: 2

    Are you an American, or do you just share the same gene that tells you when something can't be easily fixed the best solution is to blow it up? As opposed to the rest of the world that would rather just sit on their collective thumbs at the UN and that their empty resolutions will work without having to enforce them? Sorry, but I'm tired of people ragging on the US. We're so evil because we liberated Iraq from an evil dictator (I'll abstain from the use of the world invasion.) and now we're also providing the largest chunk of relief money/logistical support to South Asia. Damn Americans!!! Always fighting for freedom and pumping money into areas that need help. F*** off, and God Bless America!

    --
    Don't take life so seriously. No one makes it out alive.
  15. Re:I am an Iranian by nixers · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I guess none of you have ever lived under a Theocratic government. When I said We have been fighting for the past 10 years of our lives, I was reffering to the Iranian Student Movement not me by myself. I am just heading to university. "In The United States of America" Maybe this might help you understand a bit better about Ahura Mazda (Ahoo-raa Maz-daa).

  16. Re:zerg by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That's funny. The thing is, when we had a secular, nationalist named Mossadegh, we didn't have a problem. Bt of course, a democratically elected governmented could not be tolerated by your wonderful government. So the US stepped in and overthrew Mossadegh, replacing him with the Shah who began the start of a repressive regime that was quoted by Amnesty International as having the worse human rights record to date.

    No wonder any Islamic movement could have gained any popularity. Anything strong and opposed to the Shah was and is still better. However, you imposed that decision on us in the first place. Moreover, your government supported the Iraqis in invading Iran, which strengthened Khomeini's hand while our brothers and sisters perished.

    And after all that, you have the nerve to say that it's just our problem, and not yours?

  17. Re:I don't understand... by BobPaul · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why are these ISPs trying to get rid of paying customers again? I'd bet that a large percentage of their users would have no use for the Internet without blogs and such.

    Because the government is forcing them to. I'm sure the ISPs don't want to do this, but when a government fears a loss of power due to the rampant flow of information, they need to do something to stiffle that flow of information.

    Remember how China blocked google? Now google censors itself so that the Chinese government will allow it to continue (or at least it was censoring itself... maybe it's been opened back up?)

  18. You can't, short of Liberation or Decapitation by Nova+Express · · Score: 4, Informative
    How can we get our Iranian friends back in the Web?

    Hey Dan, Michael, let me give you a little hint: You can't. Or, as Stalin once said of the Pope, "How many divisions does Slashdot have?"

    The Islamofascist Mmullahs ruling Iran have made it quite clear they're immune to such chimeras as "international pressure." What are you going to do, impose sanction? Yeah, that worked so well with Saddam.

    Given a regime where critics of the regime have to flee for their lives, and where they executed retarded rape victims for the "crime" of having sex, what makes you think any actions short of armed revolution will get their Internet access back? Who are they going to listen to? Kofi Annan? Get real.

    There are only two things which might actually allow Iranians to get back their Internet freedoms:

    1. A full-scale liberation invasion by U.S./coalition troops, a very difficult and probably quite bloody task, or
    2. A "decapitation" strike that takes out the Islamist religious leadership, possibly some high level military assets, and probably as much of their illegal nuclear weapons infrastructure as we can locate.

    The chances of either being undertaken right now are slim, and the chances of the majority of Slashdot digirati support such a move are close to zero.

    --
    Lawrence Person (lawrencepersonh@gmailh.com (remove all "h"s to mail)

    http://www.lawrenceperson.com/

    1. Re:You can't, short of Liberation or Decapitation by Jerf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not that I've got any brilliant alternatives, except diplomatic ones where you get a big coalition together to solve the problem correctly.

      Such assumes the existance of a solution that can be implemented by a large coalition but not a small one. I'm not sure what set of solutions exactly that is; a lot of people seem to have some sort of faith they exist but the rational evidence for their existance seems to be lacking.

      In the world I live in, things trend rather the other way; large national coalitions suffer from the same exact problems as small personal coalitions, which we call committees and rightly distrust to do anything other than maintain the status quo and protect their existance. Again, the rational evidence that upsizing the committee to international sizes suddenly solves this problem is in rather short supply, whereas evidence that corruption, incompetance, and status-quo-at-all-cost thinking sets in is so abundant it boggles my mind how so many people can so thoroughly ignore it and maintain their faith.

    2. Re:You can't, short of Liberation or Decapitation by FuturePastNow · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'd like to add a third option- do nothing. Iran is ripe for another revolution; with something like 60% of the population under age 18, every year sees more and more protests against the Iranian government. The harder the mullahs push, the more likely it becomes that their people will push back.

      The result of all this dissent all this is an Iranian civil war, which could have any of a number of outcomes. But given the relatively pro-US stance of the dissidents this time around, and the fact that the US military is in a position to help them, there may be some cause for hope.

      Then again, none of this might happen. Or it might take decades. With or without American help, the dissidents could fail, or they might not want our help. They could overthrow the mullahs, and replace them with something worse (from an American/blogger point of view). Aren't international politics exciting?

      --
      Give a man fire, and you warm him for the night. Set a man on fire, and you warm him for the rest of his life.
  19. Re:zerg by replicant108 · · Score: 4, Informative

    As a point of information, Iran was a democratic country up until the government decided to nationalise the oil industry. This was too much for the West to tolerate. The democratic leader Muhammad Mussadegh was overthrown by the CIA and replaced with a Western puppet dictator - the Shah.

    These are essential facts for understanding why aggressive nationalism plays such an important role in Iranian affairs.

  20. Not a great idea. by cente · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I dunno if Bush would go for it. After all, I'm not sure if there's oil to conquest in Iran (like the only reason there was a "war" -read, slaughter- in Iraq)? We gotta find an excuse for the monkey to cash in on it, first.

    I think a country needs to "liberate" itself. The US had numerous bloody wars to get to the point to where its at. If enough people are against a topic in a country, they need to overthrow the powers that be themselves, that's all there is to it. Same thing goes to the whole "woman being battered" in a few of the middle eastern countries. Sure, I think its wrong, like anyone. But that's *my* belief, not necessarily theirs. These people have a whole set of beliefs that they have, too. They've been living with it for quite a long time. If a number of people wish to change things, they must do it *themselves*, not rely on the support of a country halfway around the globe that should be taking care of its own problems instead of spending billions overseas. If they do it right, they'll change things for the better and the beliefs just might stay around for awhile.

    1. Re:Not a great idea. by kz45 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think a country needs to "liberate" itself. The US had numerous bloody wars to get to the point to where its at. If enough people are against a topic in a country, they need to overthrow the powers that be themselves, that's all there is to it. Same thing goes to the whole "woman being battered" in a few of the middle eastern countries. Sure, I think its wrong, like anyone. But that's *my* belief, not necessarily theirs. These people have a whole set of beliefs that they have, too. They've been living with it for quite a long time. If a number of people wish to change things, they must do it *themselves*, not rely on the support of a country halfway around the globe that should be taking care of its own problems instead of spending billions overseas. If they do it right, they'll change things for the better and the beliefs just might stay around for awhile.

      Imagine if the world had had your views during world war 2: "I think the torture and murdering of jews is wrong, but maybe the people in germany don't. We should just them sort out their own problems"

    2. Re:Not a great idea. by stupidfoo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      woman being battered" in a few of the middle eastern countries. Sure, I think its wrong, like anyone. But that's *my* belief, not necessarily theirs.

      This whole worship of cultural relativism makes me sick. How can it be anything but unacceptable that people are beaten and horribly discriminated against just because they happen to be a female? My god people. The intellectual dishonesty is just amazing.
      Oh, and woman aren't just "battered".

      Iranians and international community expressed outrage at reported execution of the 16-year-old Ateqeh Rajabi on vague charges of un-Islamic behaviour.
      However, informed sources revealed that Ms. Ateqeh was sentenced to death by the judge, a cleric, because during the "trial", she expressed outrage at the misogyny and injustice in the Islamic Republic and its Islam-based judicial system.

      "The lower court judge was so incensed by her protestations that he personally put the noose around her neck after his decision had been upheld by the Supreme Court", the sources reported.


      Plenty of pictures. They string her up using a standard construction crane and leave her their hanging for everyone to see.

      Friday 27 August 2004 in the Germany-based internet newspaper Iran Emrooz, Dr. Hoseyn Baqer Zadeh, an Iranian human rights activist observed that the laws of the Islamic Republic are the "most inhuman, segregationist, insulting and discriminatory" against women.

    3. Re:Not a great idea. by jasonbowen · · Score: 2, Informative

      We didn't move to help the Jews, we moved to help our allies that were threatened by the Germans. Sorry, your analogy failed... next.

    4. Re:Not a great idea. by Grishnakh · · Score: 4, Informative

      Are you really that naive?

      Guess who sold Saddam the helicopters and chemicals he used to gas the Kurds? Guess who visited Saddam after this incident and shook his hand? (Rumsfeld; google for it and you'll find a picture).

      I'm sorry, but if any other country made the case they wanted to liberate the Iraqis, that would have been fine with me. But we were propping Saddam up while he was committing these atrocities, and treating him like gold. It wasn't until he invaded Kuwait that we turned on him. If anything, we should be paying Iraq reparations for having to put up with Saddam's rule.

      As for Iran, it's our own fault that the current government is in place. They used to have a democratic government, but because they didn't bow to our wishes, we overthrew them and installed the Shah. He wasn't too popular, so they had a revolution, and of course the radical Muslims came into power.

    5. Re:Not a great idea. by stupidfoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There's a 16 year old girl being hung by a crane for speaking out against her government, her "judge" is the one putting the noose around her neck, and you're worried about cows being turned into burgers amd calling the difference "arbitrary".

      All I can say is: wow.

      Little bit of advice (if you don't want advice, then read no further):
      It wouldn't hurt you to rethink your reasoning. I do it for most every issue every couple of years. Start fresh, look at a variety of sources, try to ignore the sources you're used to. If, when you're done, you come to all the same conclusions, then great. Usually I don't change my mind much, but I have, on occasion, changed my outlook quite drastically. What do you have to lose?

    6. Re:Not a great idea. by Razzak · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think a country needs to "liberate" itself. The US had numerous bloody wars to get to the point to where its at. If enough people are against a topic in a country, they need to overthrow the powers that be themselves, that's all there is to it.

      That would be great. Tell me. You're a poor peasant in a country that 80% poor and 20% rich. You and your 15 friends get together and build some rudimentary weapons (swords, etc). Now those four rich guys come by and they have two HUGE FRIGGIN TANKS.

      Explain to me exactly what you'd do.

      This ain't the 18th century. It is no longer difficult to retain power in a country with little popular support. The thought that every country should fix itself or it doesn't really want/deserve change is naive and heartless. Wow, and I'm the republican.

    7. Re:Not a great idea. by aussie_a · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This whole worship of cultural relativism makes me sick. How can it be anything but unacceptable that people are beaten and horribly discriminated against just because they happen to be a female?

      How can it be anything but unacceptable that people are denied equal rights just because they happen to be homosexual?

      How can it be anything but unacceptable that people are sent to jail drugs where they are raped (and a lot of people's response is "eh, whattaya gunna do about it?") just for using drugs?

      If you agree with my examples then great, but many many many people who do agree with your statement but wouldn't agree with mine.

      For those that believe that Iran (or any other country) should be invaded because of how women are treated, just think about America being invaded because of how you treat homosexuals and druggies.

    8. Re:Not a great idea. by nickco3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or perhaps, politics is the modern religion?

      Both of them, along with supporting sports teams, are modern tribalism. By far the biggest predictor in each case is which "tribe" your parents belonged to.

      --
      -- Nick "Hallo this is Beel Gates, und I pronounce weendows as ... WEENdows"
    9. Re:Not a great idea. by kaiidth · · Score: 2, Informative

      The thing is, it is unacceptable that people are denied equal rights just because they happen to be homosexual, and it is unacceptable that prison rape occurs, and it is unacceptable that drug addiction is so unreasonably dealt with.

      All of these things are unacceptable, most particularly the first case since drug-taking is after all relatively speaking a choice, whereas outside fundamentalist theorising neither homosexuality nor being born female are 'a choice'. And yes if a country started stringing people up for the crime of being homosexual, I'd be thinking it was very much time for the rest of Planet Earth to react on that matter. So what's your point?

      I find a good solution to cultural relativism is the Declaration of Human Rights, which you can find right here. Although I realise that we here on slashdot apparently hold the UN in deepest contempt, this particular document is worth taking a good look at. As far as I am concerned, it solves a lot of problems, as one can look at situations within which one might be tempted to invoke cultural relativism and say: is this against human rights? If it is, it's not OK to just shrug and go "strange places, strange people", and if it isn't, shrug away... Cultural relativism is a useful concept when it comes to accepting weirdnesses and overcoming culture shock, but it is not a catch-all excuse.

    10. Re:Not a great idea. by hyfe · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Just answering a few of parents points concerning Iran with examples of the US. This holier than thou attitudie is offensive to the extreme.

      murder of a child,

      Go find out which countries in the world allows deathpenalty on minors. Its a fairly interesting list.

      , no seperation of church and state,

      You heard your president make any references to 'GOD' or 'Christians morals' lately? His whole bloody campaign was based on religion. You may have seperation in theory, but sure as hell not in practice.

      it's endless, picture yourselves in her position where your family and entire society want you dead to satisfy their fear and dogma

      Well..shit happens everywhere. As far as I've understood from my Iranian friends, there are far worse countries when it comes to womens rights, generaly unrest and general safety. Iran has a an active opposition, and an active student body with a growing intellectualism. The more we alienate them with our "holier than thou" attitude and meddling in their internal affairs, the less influence we have on them.

      I mean, bitching about one dead girl might be slighlty hypocretical considering we killed about 1 million people through sanctioning iraq, and a few more after the actual invasion (but they aren't important enough to actually try counting atleast. Link is only verified deaths, and is probably dwarfed by the real numbers)

      We're bloody great at seeing the needle in someone elses eye, but can't see the log in our own. Everything is all about stories, and the big numbers which actually mean something are forgotten. Sometimes, I honestly think Muslim Fundamentalists have a bloody good point in wanting us exterminated(for the record I'm atheist).

      --
      "" How about taking the safety labels off everything, and let the stupidity-problem solve itself? """
    11. Re:Not a great idea. by mvdwege · · Score: 2, Insightful

      First off, I am not an Objectivist. I strongly resent the comparison to those wingnuts.

      Second, my reasoning is as follows:

      1. Moral relativism states that all viewpoints are morally equal.
      2. A viewpoint that states that some viewpoints are morally superior is therefore wrong according to point 1.
      3. Therefore, that viewpoint is inferior.
      4. However, we just stated that all viewpoints are morally equal.
      Or more shortly: "All morality is relative" is itself an absolute moral statement, and therefore in contradiction with itself.

      See here the internal inconsistency of moral relativism. And that's why I don't like it, nothing to do with my morals or being a moralist, I just don't like illogical thinking.

      And incidentally, my parent poster was talking about logical consistency, and in logic internal inconsistency is wrong.

      Now go take a logic class before you start flaming people from behind the safety of your anonymity.

      Mart
      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    12. Re:Not a great idea. by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's only hypocrisy if they are comparable in the relevant respects.

      Who decides relevancy? If their religion/culture thinks women are a "lower" form of life, like animals, who is to prove them wrong? The Old Testiment explicitly gives men dominion over women. In those cultures you don't argue against the scriptures.

  21. USSR vs. Iran by randall_burns · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Information technology played an important role in the breakup of the Soviet Union-a bigger role possibly than all of Reagan's sabre rattling. It had simply become impossible for the USSR to regulate the press when printing had become _so_ very inexpensive and decentralized, using the tactics the Soviet government was willing and able to use.


    Iran is a different case. Their revolution has been much more recent. I'm not sure how popular the government is in Iran-but I suspect their ruling group is larger than in the old Soviet Union. Also, I expect the Iranian government is willing to maintain itself in ways the old Soviet Union was not.


    However, the technologies have changed too. For example, wireless internet technology has advanced quite a bit. If there is popular resistance to the Iranian governments internet regulations, technologies like Mesh networks might be rather difficult for the Iranian government to be effectively control.



    If folks want to really do something, creating technologies that governments have trouble regulating may be the route to help here-however, it isn't just Iran that has issues in this respect. A net the Iranian government can't control, is one no government can control.

  22. This is a good topical lesson for Slashdot readers by SuperKendall · · Score: 4, Insightful

    For those that often post of the US as a "totalitarian" state, please consider that we can post just about any damn thing we like anywhere on the internet. There is no government control of what you read or post. (There may be government monitoring, but that is a different story...)

    Even in places like Iraq where some consider us a "dictator in residence" please note that anyone can run a blog any way they like, without censorship. Even if they are critical of the US in the region!

    Please, before you post again about what a facist government the US the the terrible repressions US citizens suffer take a look at places like Iran with real repression. The US has some annoying laws that have been passed but we are a LONG ways from being a truly repressive place.

    I know I'll just get flamed eight ways from Sunday for posting this, but it simply had to be said. In order to protect my own sanity (and free time) and encourage other posts I'll encourage other more silent people to come out of the shell and respond to any flamers I might get.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  23. No, the US did not fund Iranian oil exploration by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    The UK controlled all of Iran's oil resources prior to Mossadegh. After the CIA overthrew Mossadesgh, the US received 40% of Iran's oil revenues in compensation.

    As for nationalizing oil resources, every country in the Middle East has done that since 1953. Despite this fact, the big Anglo-American oil companies still make huge profits from their involvement in Middle Eastern oil.

  24. i honestly don't understand how some people think by circletimessquare · · Score: 5, Insightful

    i am really beginning to think some people's brains are just wired differently than mine. here is a subject matter everyone seems to agree on: censorship is wrong, and here we have an egregious example of it from the iranian government

    and yet i scan the comments here and what do i see? anti-american sentiment

    how does that work?

    is the usa a friend of iran? does the censorship by the us government not look like a molehill in your mind compared to the mountain of that going on in iran?

    i honestly cannot fathom how some people think: iran does something evil... therefore, let me criticize the usa

    i'm not saying the usa doesn't deserve criticism, not at all: the usa does plenty wrong that needs to be examined and castigated

    but what i am saying is that criticizing the usa in the context of what iran does is simple, pure lunacy. it's alternately hilarious and horrifying to me how some people can have so little understanding of concepts like: perspective, scale, context

    people really have to stop obsessing about the usa. no, really, you look like a fool. a fair criticism of blindly pro-american people is that they are obsessed with the usa. but some of the posts here only prove to me that the same obsession lives in the heart of anti-american sentiment too, to the same level of monomaniacal stupidity

    guess what pro-american and anti-american people: there is more to the world than the just usa. really. the world does not revolve around the usa. for real. there are other cultures and peoples and governments out there. no, really. the world does not orbit the united states. for true.

    you'd think this simple painfully straightforward observation would be dumbfoundingly patently obvious and stating it would a cause for laughter and going "duh!" but then you read some of the comments in this thread. it's absolutely mystifying the obsessive one-dimensional idiocy of those talking about the usa in this thread. when the story is about the abuses of the iranian government?

    utterly dumbfounding, this one-track obsession. please, some of you need to wake up. some of you need to ditch the fashionable propaganda of the times and try thinking for once

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  25. Re:Islam is the "religion of peace" by JohnnyCannuk · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why does the religion of peace need special instructions on how to act civilized?

    You mean like 10 Commandments or something? Why do Christians need this?

    Why is the religion of peace directly responsible for 28 out of the 30 violent conflicts raging in the world today?

    Hmm, really? Please enumerate them. Christianity seems to have its hand in a lot of them too.

    Why is the religion of peace responsible for the vast majority of chattel slavery in the world today?

    Really? Care to cite a source? BTW, the Southern Baptist Conference was pro-slavery throughout the civil war. There is NOTHING in the Bible condemning slavery - in many places slavery is condoned. Are you sure slavery is something inherent to a religion, or is it more likely poverty and economics?

    Why is the religion of peace responsible for the vast majority of terrorism in the 20th and 21st Centuries?

    The same reason Christianity was responsible for it in the preceeding 18 centuries. Because. Now, if you would care to substantiate this allegation, I'm all ears. The IRA, FARC and ETA have killed a lot more people in those centuries than Islamic terrorists but they just haven't been getting the press coverage since 9\11...

    Why are the practitioners of the religion of peace routinely slaughtering unarmed practitioners of every other religion wherever they can get away with it?

    I think what you meant to say was "SOME practitioners". Again, this can equally and justifiably be said of Christianity as well. When the Army of God or Eric Rudolph kills abortion doctors or some blond-haired, blue-eyed boy next door blows up 168 people in a federal building, you don't seem to blame all Christians or all Americans do you?

    Why does the religion of peace call for the murder of anyone who converts from the religion of peace to another religion?

    Oh you mean like these guys? Yeah, your right...what kind of sick religion is THAT?

    Why do so many of the believers of the religion of peace look forward to the opportunity to rape 72 virgins in heaven if they die while killing innocent women and children of other religions? Is it a god they worship, or just sex? If a god, then shouldnt heaven have more to do with him than their libidos?

    Would you care to show where it says ALL muslims share this belief? Or have you been watching too much Fox News...The Church of the Creator thinks that the White Race was Gods true choosen people and can even quote the Bible to back it up...doesn't make it so and doesn't mean All Christians think that way. Don't mistake the beleifs a a sick minority with the whole religion.

    Why do the leaders of the religion of peace routinely issue fatwas (death warrants) for anybody who questions their holy book of peace and their holy prophet of peace?

    You mean like Christianity did for hundreds of years upto the begining of the 19th century...Catholic AND protestant? Think of about 5 centuries of Jews and witches being burned at the stake. Better yet, read up about the murder of Hypatia in Alexadria. You know its is bad, but again, if Jerry Falwell claims that 9\11 happened because America pissed of your God doesn't mean ALL Christians think like that...

    Why is the religion of peace responsible for the sexual mutilation of millions of little girls and the savage oppression of women?

    But sexual mutilation of infant boys is ok then? Christianity has not exactly been a beacon of equality for women either, save the last 40 years of so...

    Why did millions of the practitioners of the religion of peace laugh, cheer and dance in the street because 3,000 innocent men, women and children were murdered by seventeen men who supposedly hijacked the religion of peace? And why dont the real practitioners of the religion of peace condemn the supposed hijackers of their religion? Why th

    --
    Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
  26. Are a Few Blogs Worth an Invasion? by One+Childish+N00b · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm pretty sure the loss of a few blogs is less damaging to the average Iranian than the loss of their life, which is something that's bound to happen if the US try another one of their 'liberation' stunts. Look at Iraq, where people are still dying nearly everyday because of Islamic militants setting off car-bombs to kill American troops and Iraqi 'collaborators'. Do you really want that to happen in Iran for the sake of a few blogging sites? At least with Iraq, Saddam had a proven track record of genocide against his own people, so perhaps the Americans had a good reason to invade, but the fact is there is still bloodshed of innocent people going on nearly everyday. With Saddam you can turn round and say "but he killed thousands of Kurds, that's far worse than what's going on now". What are you going to say about Iran when the death toll continues to climb long after Bush declares 'victory'? Are you going to complain about how those evil dastardly Iranians stopped their people reading John and Jenny Doe's blog post about how their toddler's potty-training?

    As for executing a retarded rape victims, that's not much worse than the US executing people found incompetent to stand trial, people suffering from severe mental illness and people professionally adjudged to have the mental age of an 11-year-old child. I could probably find more, but I remember that press release distinctly and had it bookmarked. Admittedly those people had committed crimes rather than been the victim, but it's really not that big a step. Lastly, don't get me started on the 'illegal nuclear weapons infrastructure' comment - you've got the biggest nuclear stockpile in the world, who are you (as a country) to call any other nation's nuclear infrastructure illegal? Does DRM come on tactical warheads now? Seriously, this is no reason to be blowing up anyone - it's just not worth it... and doesn't China have the 'Great Firewall of China' and executions for frivolous crimes? Oh, I forgot, they're too big for good ol' George Dubya to go after.

    George W. Bush: Always picking on the little guy.

    --
    Dealing with lawyers would be a lot less tedious if they all looked like Casey Novak.
    1. Re:Are a Few Blogs Worth an Invasion? by syrinx · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Admittedly those people had committed crimes rather than been the victim, but it's really not that big a step.

      Ummm... so it's "not a big step" from innocent to guilty?

      I hope that if I'm ever on trial, you're not on my jury.

      --
      Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
  27. This is only a drill there is no need to invade by asad · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Ok I am glad everyone all of a sudden cares this much about the bloggers in my country. But a few facts.

    * I can't get to hoders website right now but I don't belive that anyone has verified the web blocking.
    * While blogging is popular in Iran it's not the next great revolution. It's a way for people to talk, browse for porn and do all the other things most college students do in the US.
    * The Iranian people are capable of figuring out a government for themselves. When theycouldn't take the Shah anymore they dealt with him.
    * As the student demonstrations showed a few years ago the regime still has a lot of backers, eventually Iranians will figure out what they really want and how much they care about fighting for it.

    In the meantime you can get a list of some english blogs written by iranians over at http://blogsbyiranians.com/
    it appears to be down at the moment since I suspect it's hosted at hoders server but there is always the google cache if you want to look at it right now.

    --
    Vidi, vici, veni. (I saw, I conquered, I came)
  28. Re:Islam is the "religion of peace" by mikeswi · · Score: 4, Informative

    >> Why did millions of the practitioners of the religion of peace laugh,
    >> cheer and dance in the street because 3,000 innocent men, women and
    >> children were murdered by seventeen men who supposedly hijacked the
    >> religion of peace?

    > Why do anti-Muslim bigots keep clinging to this Urban myth? The
    > "video" of which you allude was of about 30 people in the Occupied
    > West Bank. Some of the videos shown on Fox later turned out to be
    > library footage of Palestinians celebrating the 1993 peace accord,
    > NOT a celebration of 9\11.

    Wrong.
    http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.htm

  29. What more do you expect by adeydas · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In a country where speaking against crime is considered taboo and females are kept in veils, exercising your right to speak and communicate is a 'crime' in itself. As far as I understand, these 'islamists' who control the Government wants to check the spread of 'westernisation' in their country. This is not restricted to Iran only. Even in countries like Pakistan, government exercises strict control on communication media.

  30. Iran it Simple by Simple-Simmian · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You want free access to the web and media in Iran. The Iraninans will have to kill all the mad turbans off. You have to remember this is a counrty where they hang 17 yearold girl with a mental age of 8 because her parents sold her into sex slavery.

    --
    If you don't like what I write don't be a CS and mod it down. Refute it.
    Yea I can't spell. So what is your point?
  31. Not a good comparison by The+Tyro · · Score: 4, Insightful

    using domestic violence as an example... you're a few decades out of date.

    It USED TO BE in the US that the woman had to press charges against the man in order for the police to make an arrest. I know this not only from a law enforcement background, but from personal experience.

    One of my next-door neighbors growing up was a terrible alcoholic and wife-beater (he was also a physician. What a disgrace to the profession... but I digress). I can't remember how many times we called the police, because we could hear him beating her (things breaking, screaming, thuds, etc). The guy used to beat the living tar out of his wife... bruises, black eyes, cuts... I've seen better-looking barfight victims. She, however, would never press charges, and the guy got off every. single. time. We could have "minded our own business," but we felt an obligation to do something. I was but a lad, so I couldn't understand the dynamics involved... Needless to say, all their kids, save one, are now in prison.

    It took decades, but a sea change eventually took place. These days, Domestic Violence is a crime not only against the individual, but against the state. This allows the police to make an arrest whether the victim wants it or not.

    Sometimes the situation is bad enough, or the people co-dependent enough, that they literally need help to get out of their situation. I'm well aware of how that sounds... so spare me the vituperation for being patronizing. That said, I don't think the Iranian people would resent being free... and any way we could assist them in that effort is arguably the right thing to do.

    Of course, it goes without saying that we'd probably be ahead to first exhaust less-violent means of assistance.

    --
    Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
  32. Re:i honestly don't understand how some people thi by WildBeast · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I've been going through the comments and most of what I read is about invading Iran because they're censoring the net. How is that any better?

    Can we criticize censorship without bringing an invasion into the equation? And heck a few years ago, I remember a time where many around here made comments favorably or unfavorably towards one US policy or another and yet the anti-american label was rarely used to reply to such comments.

    people really have to stop obsessing about muslim countries. the world doesn't revolve around them. there are other cultures and peoples and governments ou there.

    It really stinks. You criticize something in a foreign country, all of a sudden they wanna invade it. You say something bad about a US policy and you're labeled as anti-american. wth happened?

  33. Freedom by eMartin · · Score: 2, Funny

    Hmm...

    The president tells me that we have freedom. That we love freedom. That others hate freedom. That we must force them to embrace freedom. That we must make those who choose to live their lives differently understand what freedom is all about.

    That's good enough for me.

    Your "freedom" of speech might cause people to doubt that. It would actually hurt freedom. You don't want to do that, do you?

    Are you a freedom hater?

  34. Re:Islam is the "religion of peace" by xlurker · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Your detailed answer is apologism and appeasement.

    1. A few of your rebukes cite past historical sins in christian societies ("our" societies) as analogies to the the acts of radical moslems coming from the respective societies ("their" societies).
    A common argument made by many apologists is that "they" as a society are still evolving and going through the same problems we went through. To back up this argument "our" past errors are cited. Of which certainly we know quite a few. (BTW how much do we (or even they) know of their past? Is is openly dealt with?)
    While it may be interesting discussing the merits of this theory, it begs the question: does that mean "they" are less capable then us, inferiour even? That we give them some leniency, kindly treat them the way we treat confused and troublesome children?
    To the point: does that mean we don't criticize them the same way we critizes our own religions, our own politicians and our own clergy? We don't hold them up to higher standards?

    I certainly hope not. I would hope that they don't either.
    For this reason we as individuals should not refrain from criticizing failings of others and hold our standards to everyone equally high.

    2. You cite a few examples of extremists in our societies, show that we have our own bad apples. Again a good point, maybe it would be good to just run a tally to see if we have the same density of extremists as they do...
    But it shows a fault in their societies themselves: these kinds of opinions and actions do not come out of nowhere. People in their vincity know and tolerate this interpretation of Islam and maybe even their actions. Of the violent examples (IRA, ETA) you stated, I would assume that "our" offenders had to conceal their identies. They had to be carefull not to be discovered or betrayed. One just doesn't have the impression that radical islamic terrorists worry much about being betrayed by people that know of their opinion and deeds.

    3. All comparisons you make are only qualititave comparisons not quantitative. To "sexual mutilation of millions of little girls and the savage oppression of women" you counter "sexual mutilation of infant boys" (you certainly mean sexual abuse by very sick clergy men in the US, you certainly aren't speaking of circumcision are you?)
    It would be laughable to assume the numbers could be compared. Also in the US the church is being held responsible (morally as well as legally) for the sick deeds these men have made and the almost equally sick decisions the church has made to hush-hush it over the decades. This owning up to mistakes does not take place in their societies.

    4. Your rebuke to the point concerning the videos was shown to be false in the above poster: http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.htm

    5. Concerning Oklahoma City, the Pope and the Archbishop. They sent their condolences (search it with google, I did). I can imagine the Pope sends his condolences each time a catastrophy happens. Dito the Archbishop. But I am also certain that had the bomber cited "The Christian-Catholic God" as being his moral compass that the Pope would have publicly condemned this man. As would have all christian priests in their churches. Openly, they would have gone to great efforts to avoid any possible misunderstanding and to make clear that they have absolutley no sympathies for this kind of act. Unfortunately to often moslem-arab imams are the moral compasses and inspiration for terrorists. Why is it so hard to hear all other imams publicly condemning this? If these people have hijacked their religion why are they not publicly shunned and denounced? How is it that these people can use their churches for their agitational-inspirational meetings? Where is the public opposition?
    Why do they not insist that it not be called 'jidah' anymore? 'Jidah' means 'struggle' for the faith in oneself and with

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    sigamajig...
  35. Re:Distributed Annonymous WebProxy by bahamat · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm the sr. sysadmin for Anonymizer and we have a contract with VOA to provide free proxy service to Iran.

    It's based off of PrivateSurfing (which you can try out for free at the Anonymizer homepage, sorry you can't surf /. with it...Rob hates me). Added features for the Iran proxy is full time SSL, URL encryption, Farsi language support, and we switch the proxy website about once a month (every time the Iranian government blocks us). We perform checks on the service from within Iran to see if our site is actually blocked (yes, it works), and we maintain a database of all known e-mail addresses that we can detect as being located in Iran. Every time we switch the proxy site we send an e-mail informing them of the new free proxy location so the citizens of Iran can find it. The sites are also broadcast via radio and TV into Iran by the VOA. To be honest, we're usually about a day behind the blocks, due mostly to time zone differences.

    The systems that run the Iran proxies are dedicated and used quite heavily. Much more than any of the servers that we have for everything else. The loadav is pretty high, and we're working on upgrading them in the next few months to increase capacity.

    Most of our customers are under NDA so I don't mention where I work much, but the VOA is one of our very few public contracts due to it's anti-censorship nature.

  36. Re:War? by sjwaste · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No, just because he's brainlessly reciting US-fascist government propaganda. There's no opinion present in that post with which to disagree -- just evidence of successful zombiefication. I'm sure he'll make ideal cannon fodder, just like the Muslim suicide terrorists he might end up fighting. The sad thing is, he has a lot in common with them.

    The opinion stated is that he's been brainwashed. Believe me, you're not speaking in fact when you say that. I could say that you sound exactly like every other extreme left wing nut running around the US, because they all like to use the words "brainwashed", compare the US government to fascism (which you obviously have NO clue what fascism is, if you believe the US is behaving in that way), and questioning the moral convictions of someone who genuinely wants to see a better world. You should be ashamed of yourself to even question whether or not he genuinely believes in making the world a better place, regardless of his method, because at least that attitude is the right way to start. "Wait and see" is not an appropriate way of making change.