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Video Formats for non-Windows Users?
ccdotnet asks: "I look after a small web site for a rising sports star. We have a small number of short videos in .WMV (9) format available for download. These .WMV files are typically 3-5 MB in size (we do a "low res" and a "hi res" version). Each video is typically 1-2 minutes and 320x240. The site gets maybe 100 visitors per day. Our outbound hosting bandwidth is _very_ limited, so although we are keen to cater for non-Windows users (around 7% of our visitors), I've struggled to find a suitable video format which doesn't blow the size of the file right out. Ideally I would like to keep these files at a similar size but at the same time want to maintain a reasonable video quality. Are users of other platforms just out of luck? What non-Windows/Mac video formats can people recommend so that I can deliver this content to people who can't play .WMV for one reason or another?"
A few years ago, playing .WMV files might have been problematic for users who didn't use either a Macintosh or a Windows-based operating system. Now, with MPlayer and its derivatives making strides, it's not as much of an issue. Of course, there are still .WMV files that don't play well in Mplayer, but what suggestions would you have for creating Mplayer-safe .WMVs as well as other, more cross-platform friendly formats?
What's wrong with Xvid? It plays on Windows and Linux (and other things).
If you're concerned about bandwidth, why not Coral Cache things?
mpeg. or quicktime.
Seems to be more of a standard than .wmv. And every player seems to support .MPG files.
The two that come to mind the quickest are xvid and divx. Beyond that, check out http://www.videohelp.com/ for a lot more info on video codecs.
Many people, especially those on certain univeristy or corporate networks, cannot use BitTorrent.
Heh, they dont say what kind of 'sports' this 'rising' star is part of....
I have no sig yet I must scream.
These produce very high quality along with very good compression.
For some intro how-to's, check out Doom9.org
XViD is on:
- Win32 (MSVC, cygwin, mingw)
- GNU/Linux x86/ppc/sparc/ia64
- MacOSX
- *BSD
- Solaris 8 Ultra Sparc
- BeOS
That covers most of the major operating systems that your users will encounter.
I did some video work for a very well known media company... one 99% of slashdotters here would likely recognize.
Here was my analysis:
QuickTime had the best quality, bandwidth, compatibility for the largest target audience. The player is of equal quality on platforms, and performs very well.
RealPlayer supports more Platforms that QT, but it's player is at different levels on different platforms, so customizing the appearance of functionality may cause some funny behavior on some operating systems.
If you want to make sure 100% of the audience can see the media, mpg is still the best format... though be aware that it's not exactly prefered.
IMHO if you want to get your entire audience, push towards quicktime, and give the option for real player (alternate).
You'll get most of your audience that way, with the greatest quality video, and the least bandwidth.
QuickTime pro is only $29, realPlayer producer basic is free. Players for both are free, and widely installed.
It's very easy to get going on that platform. IMHO it's the best bet this day and age.
If Apple would support Linux with Quicktime, I would push QuickTime 100%.
QuickTime's plugin on Windows and Mac OS X is very stable, and reliable. The media quality is also very good.
Real has compatibility problems on non-windows players. Not everything is implemented on them. Hence they are 2nd class.
I use Discreet's Cleaner (was Media Cleaner) here to compress videos taken of cells through a light microscope. While we save our videos in Quicktime format as we are an all-Mac lab (with one or two unavoidable exceptions) and as the QT Player is free and can be downloaded easily by Windows users, Cleaner can also process other formats as well -- it can create RealPlayer files (but not read them, which drives me crazy when I want to do personal conversion projects on the side... WTF?), MPEG streams, QT files (of course), and so on. It is very good at optimizing video for different kinds of uses (you'd be tuning for web use) and is quite good at compression. It will work with any QT codecs you drop into the appropriate folder, should you be using a Mac; I've never used the Windows version, so I can't give advice there.
It can also do batch conversion -- we set up an entire batch of files to convert overnight, set it going, and walk away. When we return in the morning, it's ready and waiting.
If you encode on a Windows box, use cleaner XL. If you use a Mac, like we do, use cleaner 6.
Be sure to provide download links for appropriate players on your page, if you don't already. Users are likely to not know about vlc and other appropriate players.
i am a soviet space shuttle
How is the Theora codec doing?
t ml
http://www.theora.org/
And the BBC's Dirac codec?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/dirac/index.sh
Baz
it's also nagware - that costs 30 bucks.
also they don't offer version for xp without itunes anymore(on their site at least).
and officially cross platform if you count windows and mac os(x) as the platforms that exist..
xvid, and give them a link to videolan client or something, put up some googleads and go look for some cheap bandwith or a sponsor.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
MPEG-4 (aka mp4) is the standard everybody's running towards. The wildly popular divx is really a MPEG-4 pre-release spec but their current players handle the release spec. Quicktime on Mac or Windows will play it as will mplayer on linux. Quicktime Pro ($29) will encode is and there are some free encoders on Linux (patents are an open question).
Moreover next-gen DVD's will use MPEG-4 as do cellphones with 3GPP support so you're heading in the right direction for future work.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
The best choices are Quicktime or mpeg. I wouldn't recommend DivX or XVid simply because the user has to install a 3rd party codec. More often than not, they're just going to skip over it and move on to another page. The hassle of installing the codec will outweight their interest in actually seeing the video. Sure QT is proprietary, but it has the highest market penetration next to standard Windows video codecs. So if you must have a cross platform codec that isn't mpeg, you should go with QT. Also keep in mind, ofthat 7%, the majority will be using Macs and very few will be using *nix. Desipte what the demographic on /. maybe, you'll need to think less like a geek and more like a sports agent. :)
Ok, if so many people are anti-BitTorrent then modify my reply to read: "Why don't you provide a BitTorrent seed as well, and ask people to use it instead of the straight download, if they can?"
Why don't you deliver it in flv? There are a lot of flash players and flash is now supported in near all platforms.
t ml
xabi
http://www.flvplayer.com/
http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/mx/flash/video.h
Check populicio.us
AVI is a container format, not a CODEC.
In practice nowadays, most people overload the term "AVI" such that CodecOf(AVI) = DivX, just as "QuickTime" meant Sorenson Video in the QT 3-5 days.
OMFG, you're actually using the windows media player? Go grab a better one from this site. Those players are all free. Personally I like WinAmp and VLC the best.
Wow, talk about some lousy responses. I'm guessing you want to avoid making users install extra software, right? So BitTorrent and DivX might not be the most favorable solution. Although I think DivX would work well, I think you'd best be served by creating HTTP streamable videos with either RealPlayer or QuickTime. I think most Linux users are savvy enough to play any format, and Mac users will be comfortable with either format. Real has a player available for Windows, Linux, and Macintosh. If you think Real is evil like 95% of the Slashdot community, Quicktime would be a great alternative.
And Real does have an annoyance-free version of their player available for Windows:
http://forms.real.com/rnforms/products/tools/red/
Comparing different export formats (DivX, Real, MPEG-1, MPEG-4, 3ivX, Sorenson Pro, Windows Media, etc..)
As you may imagine I am a QT/Sorenson fan but, a good MPEG compressor is nice and only a little larger if you cut the bitrate down.
You can also un-nag QT by setting your system date ahead when prompted to upgrade to the pro version.
;-)
Pick a time in 2008 - click OK - Do it again in 2008
Here it is
Actually, Windows works (such as it is) running as a restricted user. There's some caveats:
.NET). Many small-scale third party applications may not work (but MS Office and large commercial apps work fine). You can't change file associations (huh? this is just a windows design flaw). And all users have full read-write permission on the root of C, and any new (not-already-existent) folders created there, which is a pretty fricken huge loophole no real OS would ever allow (probably implemented so that apps that extract things to C:\tmp will still work)
IE can't install ActiveX controls, rendering many websites useless (IE plugin design flaw, fixed properly but too late for most of the net by
Besides, users on a Terminal Server should (one would hope for God's sake) not have admin access. Although it's pretty rare to have a standalone Windows box without admin access, terminal services is increasingly popular (especially now that local sound, printers, and drives can be forwarded)
Hope that helps.
So far, only 50% of the posts in this thread have been reminders about how thise article is about none-winodws users.
So I thought I'd you myself, just in case you missed it, this article is about video-formats for none-windows users, so whatever applies to the windows world is really, really irellevant, because this is after all a article about usage of video-formats in a none-windows environment.
So, did you get it this time? Or should I repeat that it is indeed not about windows, just in case? Just let me know!
Not Buzzword 2.0 compliant. Please speak english.
By using Blog Torrent! Sets up a simple tracker, allows even the most novice to seed files, and bundles the bittorrent client with the torrent file in one single download. They have versions for mac and windows, and allow for the download of just the .torrent file for Linux users.
__________
Love conquers all... except CANCER
I'm a big QuickTime fan. It's probably the best container format out there.
But that's the problem -- it's a container format, and not a Codec.
I think what the requester needs is a good cross-platform container format and Codec, in which case MP4 (which is based on QuickTime's container format) is probably the best bet for cross-platform access.
Or, as much as I hate to say it, Real format. I'm not a Real fan, but their player does run natively on Windows, Mac OS, and Linux, and can be made to run on OS/2 systems if you're so inclined.
Yaz.
I'm not sure how well the new quicktime 7.0 will work with crossover office, as I don't have access to the prereleases (I don't think it's been publically released yet).
But it does provide me with the option of using quicktime in linux, which is great. In addition to that, I use mplayerplugin with firefox, and that takes care of pretty much any media format the web throws at me, thanks to plf (I'm on mandrake).
Real Player 10 works on Windows, Linux and Mac. You can just dump WMV and use only Real Format. Also Real 10 now has browser plug-ins for Mozilla/Firefox and IE.
If you are _really_ against using Real, then IMO the next best would be just standard MPEG-1 videos or divx. With divx, you will have Windows, Linux and MacOS X support with no problems.
If you don't go with Real, them IMO go with divX or MPEG-4, and have a blurb on the video page that directs users to the download page for VLC. There are versions of VLC for Windows, Linux, Mac and others. VLC will play tons of content on all platforms out-of-the-box.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison
RivaVX has a great free tool for encoding FLV (flash movie) files for distribution on the web. It took a 3 MB mov file of a rally car race and reduced it to 300 KB, and the sound / picture quality is pretty good.
Actually the enterprise version of RealPlayer (created with RealPlayer Desktop Manager) is pretty much the same thing as RealPlayer for Linux, without the crappy button order problem (which is why you don't see RealPlayer on any of my UNIX boxes). Just a media player.
Xvid is an MPEG-4 implementation which, while an open standard, is patented and requires a license to use. Xvid itself is protected as a source-only distribution, which is considered an academic work. However to compile and use it, you need a license. What's more, MPEG-4 has use fees, you have to pay per hour per viewer for media.
Now while they don't know (or likely care) about home usage, something like this will draw their ire if you don't pay the fees.
Containers combine encoded audio and video, and possibly metadata. This usually means interleaving audio and video according to their time in the movie, so during playback your disk doesn't die from constant seeking between the audio and video portions.
Codecs are used to compress the raw audio and video to the desired size, usually reducing the quality (lossy compression).
As a container format, you mainly have the following options:
- .AVI (AudioVideoInterleaved): a really old format that just interlaces audio and video data (even mp3 audio is basically hacked into working with this - badbadbad)
- .WMV/.ASF: Microsoft stuff. Don't use, if you want compatibility with anything but Windows.
- QuickTime
.MOV (MooV actually): Apple stuff. Officially supported on Macs and Windows, but still proprietary - you're not being nice to OSS users.
- RealMedia
.RM: proprietary (see QuickTime)
- MPEG-4: New standard by the people who brought us MPEG-1 (crappy low-res by todays standards) and MPEG-2 (DVD video). It's based on the QuickTime container, but it's a public standard (not proprietary). Costs developers to get a license, though.
- Ogg: Open/Free container format. Great for OSS people, but less known than MPEG-4.
I'd recommend looking into using MPEG-4 or Ogg containers.For video compression, whether you use MPEG-4 or Ogg, go with XVID. Theora is still in development, and everything else is a mess by comparison. (flaming ensues
For audio compression, with MPEG-4 you will want to use AAC or MP3 (not sure about the latter), with Ogg containers go with Ogg Vorbis (best quality at low bitrates, IMHO) or MP3.
By sticking to a standard, but non-proprietary combination, such as MPEG-4/XVID/AAC, you might even be able to cater to all platforms without maintaining multiple formats...
I would go with QuickTime created .mp4 files. They have excellent quality for the file size, play well in QuickTime, and can be viewed in VLC on most platforms if you object to the QuickTime player. Or don't have it, in the case of Linux. The size/quality is better in my estimation than the DivX codec.
YMMV, but I do know that this will work multi-platform.
Rule of the open mind
People who are resistant to change cannot resist change for the worst.
WMV files can have trojans embedded in them that activate as soon as you try to watch the video. They abuse a security problem in Microsoft's DRM crap. I have all the security patches, anti-virus, anti-spyware, etc, and a WMV file installed several different trojans on my Windows computer.
I will not open WMV files any more.
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
Quicktime is an open file format. Anything that has mpeg-4 support can support quicktime (if the developers choose to extend the parser) because mpeg adopted the quicktime format to create mpeg-4. I think what you're thinking of is codecs. The codecs aren't always cross platform. But when you encode your movie you have a choice as far as which one you use. So if you wanted a quicktime movie that played on linux you would probably just choose h.263 or motion jpeg or somesuch instead of sorensen 3 or apple video.
That being said, if you're using quicktime in your production chain and you want to be able to play cross platform, export to mpeg-4, h.263. It'll produce a movie that plays in WMP, Real, Qt, Mplayer and VLC.
"Let him go, Ralph. He knows what he's doing." --Otto Mann (simpsons)
While there may be workarounds for many of us, for most people Quicktime is Nagware. From a purely marketing point of view, encoding something in nagware sucks. That means for the majority of your customers, between clicking on the movie and playing it back, they have an ad pop up; an ad for something they've already decided not to purchase, and which annoys them. Fresh from that burst of negativity they see your movie.
for me I also hate QT because I can't seem to figure out how to increase the image size to fill screen. Running on a 1920x1200 15.4" LCD screen means those QT videos are TINY.
also they don't offer version for xp without itunes anymore(on their site at least).
;)
Yeah they do! You just need to know what to click
If you goto the Quicktime Download Page you're given radio buttons for XP/2000 with iTunes, 98/ME, and MacOS. Below that there's a drop box to select your language. Below that there are three links. Click the link titled "Quicktime StandAlone Player"
This will give you Quicktime without iTunes. It'd be nicer if they had a radio button, but the link isn't really hidden, either.
(BTW, AFIK, Quicktime for Win98/ME is the same as 2000/XP. iTunes just doesn't work on 98/ME, that's why there's two seperate radio buttons.. you should be able to use the 98/ME link just fine, but I might be mistaken...)
We recently went through the same exercise. Our requirements were:
- Reasonably high quality at a relatively low datarate.
- Video and audio formats should be open standards.
- Primary target is Mac OS and Windows, but would be nice to play on other OSes, such as Linux and Solaris.
We found everything we were looking for in MPEG-4 (Part 2) video with AAC audio.
We recommend two solutions for players:
- QuickTime Player, for Mac OS and Windows
- VideoLan Client (VLC), for Mac OS and Windows, but also many other operating systems
This has the advantage of providing a free, supported, full featured player for the vast majority of visitors (i.e., Mac OS and Windows), but also offers a reliable free open source player for many other platforms, in addition to Mac OS and Windows.
Soon, we'll be switching to H.264 (AVC or MPEG-4 Part 10), for which free playback support will be available in QuickTime 7 for Mac OS and Windows. Playback support will no doubt be added to the likes of VLC.
Disclaimer - I work for RealNetworks on Helix Player / RealPlayer for linux
RealVideo 10 is definitely worth a look. There are players for Mac, Windows, Linux desktop, Linux Embedded, and Symbian. People can create additional players for new platforms in the Helix Community. RealAudio 10 comes in several flavours, including lossless and multichannel.
The producer apps page may be a good place to start if you want to try out the encoder.
Check out Helix Player
MediaFrame is an open source Java player that doesn't require plugins ad supports Mpeg-1 and Mepg-4. Fucking cool technology and free to air to boot.
Make sure you close your calendar/appointment program first... I did this at work once before and got about a billion reminders for recurring meetings throughout the year and into next.
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world... those who understand binary and those who don't
flash PLAYER has always been available at no cost
p.s. why is using something that costs money a bad thing? is your friggin car open source?
Interesting reading this thread.
...(everyone should complain to Apple about that) and the not playing FS until you paid (though there is an easy hack) it has a nice looking, professional and thankfully unobtrusive front end which is much more than can be said for Real or the dreaded WMP.
Go with QuickTime. It is tried and tested
Apart from the nag alert
Anyone here ever used WMP on a Mac? Don't. Read the reviews on Macupdate and version tracker, it is a complete joke on the Mac. Thanks M$
I think embedding movies in SWF is a nasty idea. It is not easy for newbies to save them or play them again like that and is kinda messy.
That said if you don't want people to easily be able to save the movies there is a good case for Real Player too.
But for general stuff I would always go with QuickTime and have used it for 4 years publishing on the web with very little complaints from Windows users (I work on Macs)
Also QT files using Sorenson 2 and 3 play back fine with MPlayer or VLC in my experience. I assume therefore (could be wrong) that they would play back on Linux too.
I'm very surprised to see how many people want to fix the problem I don't have: the Windows users of this site are quite happy with the video quality of .WMV, and so am I. I'm not only happy with the video quality (these are sporting videos - lots of motion) but very happy with the file sizes.
Everytime I've tried MPEG, the file becomes 2-3 times larger and I simply cannot put that online.
I will certainly look into QT and Real, as these seem to be credible options albeit at a cost.
What I have learned from your feedback, is that viewing .WMV on a non-Windows platform is actually less of a problem than I thought it was. Clearly there are .WMV viewers for other platforms out there I wasn't aware of. As these users are inclined to fiddle and install new stuff anyway, leaving .WMV as my standard might be the best approach.