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Taking My Freedom With Me to China?
Solo Han asks: "I'm considering a move to China next year, and while I have just as many problems as y'all do with the government, I still like the freedoms afforded me, especially when it comes to access of information. Chinese citizens, however, do not have the same freedoms, as we are constantly reminded here on slash-o-dot. Pr0n, mp3z, and games aside, what are the things that those of you in the Celestial Kingdom know you cannot access, and specifically, what are the websites, search engines, news sites, and other sites that are classed as potentially 'dangerous' material? This brings me to my overall question: is the censorship that real, that hard to get around, and how do you do it? What methods and technologies are you aware of or use to circumvent the Great Firewall of China?"
Nothing for you to see here. Please move along.
Does that answer your question?
What methods and technologies are you aware of or use to circumvent the Great Firewall of China?
Somehow I don't think it's wise to do such circumvention if you want to stay there short-term/long-term/permanently.
What would US officials think if a foreigner, who is planning to move to USA, talks about how stupid the whole security thing is, and asks for advice to get around it?
If USA can attack another country "Just Like That"(tm), I would consider Chinese's censorship a godsend given it's only imposed within its own country. If you decided to move there, respect its laws; if you don't agree with its laws, go somewhere else. You always have a choice.
At home I have unlimited access to the internet, but at work I can only access port 80, and I would never try to get around company's security policy because it's restricting my freedom to surf, although others might still try that.
And remember, when you get caught, it's going to be ugly no matter where you are.
So in my opinion, if you want to go into other's territory, make sure you find out what can and cannot be done there, and stick to the rules.
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
No sir you are wrong. There is NO censorship here in China, none at all! Yes siree, everything is free and open. As we say here in Chi
You have a constitutionally protected right to be wrong, and I the right to ignore you.
...they don't care. Nearly all of this censorship is only aimed at chinese citizens, and then only those that happen to be a convenient PR target. Unless you start actively trying to overthrow the government or anything daft like that, they're not interested.
So basically your question is stating "I'm going to China and expect to be able to break their laws as I was fortunate enough to be born in a more free society."
Don't whine to the foreign media when you're jailed as a subversive influence.
Trolling is a art,
Do you really want to consider "getting around" the censorship. It's not like they're playing a game over there. They're not setting up challenges for the techno-elite to figure out how to access Slashdot from being the Great Firewall of China. It's not like "Gosh, I can use a proxy! I can tunnel... they'll find this very clever and I'll be able to do whatever I want."
You'll be breaking the law.
In China.
Are you a big fan of breaking the law in general? Are you a big fan of spending days, weeks, or years in a Chinese political prison? Do you like having your legs unbroken?
I would highly recommend against going to China with a plan of "Getting around" the censhorship. It's not just a technological hurdle to overcome, it's the law. And as a general policy, you don't want to be breaking the law in foreign countries. Their jails aren't as nice as ours.
--
RumorsDaily
What kind of problems? Did you sell military secrets to the Chinese?
Man is a slave because freedom is difficult, whereas slavery is easy.
Why do you think China has some of the best hackers in the world? The "necessity is the mother ...." comes to mind.
Gimme that booze you little pumpkin pie hair cutted freak!
Why don't you move to China and do all of those things while maintaining a blog of your adventure. Thus, if your blog suddenly disappears or is abandoned, then we will know for sure what happens in China when you do those things..
To help fit in when you go to China, I suggest you participate in one of their native religions. This will help you get along great in your new home.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
What methods and technologies are you aware of or use to circumvent the Great Firewall of China
I'd tell you, but then they'd have to kill me.
-geekd
I wonder if tor works from inside the great firewall of China. Any Chinese folks who've tried it and care to comment?
Here is a comprehensive list of sites banned in China: http://asp-cyber.law.harvard.edu/filtering/list.ht ml
Obviously some people break the rules, use outside proxies not yet blocked by the government, and get access to prohibited information. I've been there, three times. I know some of this. And I don't recommend it. If caught, and lucky, you'll just be thrown out of the country. It can be worse.
The question you should be asking yourself is: Just how much do I want to have a long, happy, and enjoyable time living in the PRC?
Why not try living like a real Chinese citizen for a few months just to see what it's like? Why else go, if you're only trying to live your Western-style life just in a new location?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Having lived there, well
a) hope you know chinese
b) public interenet, cds, etc. is OK, and there may be more there than is let on. Note: they banned this because it's already out.
c) there are proxies that will let you circumvent, but they will know you did that. It's a moving target game.
other notes
- self censorship challenges; Americans (I'm one) are loud and boisterous. Like to challenge boundarys and assumptions. That's not their culture and frowned upon.
Basically, it's going to be different, and depends entirely where you are in that vast ranging country.
and dont use the people's explorer of internet. But i hear the chinese food there rocks (or as they call it there, 'food')
I recently spent the better part of a year living in Guangzhou followed by a few months in Chengdu. As for Porn, it was being sold on the streets. I found there to be no real enforcing of any of these "bans" the central government keeps talking about. The conry is actually very free on a day to day basis, as long as you don't bring religion or something similar into a School you're teaching at, you're ok
So the Chinese Army did not send in tanks to stop students protesting?
So those executions I saw where they had the people kneel and put a bullet in their brain never happened?
So there really is freedom of religion and speech in China?
So the Chinese government does not make huge amounts of money from prison labor?
And the Chinese did not lob missiles over an island full of people to keep them in line?
Just asking if these are all myths that I have seen on TV?
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
I'm actually reading your post from China right now, and I'm not entirely sure what you're asking:
Do you really want to ... play ... a game. Are you a big fan of ... the ... general? Are you a big fan of ... Chinese? Do you like ... your legs?
I would highly recommend ... going to China. Their jails are ... nice.
Taking my freedom with me to jail
On how to take his limited Chinese freedom of information searching to Chinese prison.
Taking My Freedom With Me to China?
Taking My Cocaine With Me to the US?
Taking Kiddy Porn With Me to England?
Taking Salman Rushdie With Me to Iran?
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
A simple unencrypted squid proxy. I live in China, and some sites are blocked (BBC News, Miami Herald, etc). I set up a proxy on a linux box in the USA, and I use it whenever I encounter a blocked site (hit F12-x in Opera to toggle).
It's also useful when there's simply a bad connection or slow speed. Often, I can't get a good connection to some site or other, and it's not blocked, I know it's up, but the crappy infrastructure here drops my packets. So, even if there were no Great Firewall, I'd still have my proxy handy. The Great Firewall isn't too concerned with English language websites. As far as I know, only Chinese and English language sites are blocked...any other nationalities get off scot-free.
And don't worry about getting clubbed in the head by the cops, or anything stupid like that. China is just like everywhere else...you mess with the bull, you get the horns. Hell, we smoke joints openly on the street. Nobody knows what it smells like. We went out on a lake, and the boatman asked, "why are you 6 people sharing one cigarette...you don't have enough money to afford cigarettes for everyone?"
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
I've taken a few trips to P.R.C. since my wife is from there. I had a few problems trying to upload photos from a digital camera to a server back home (yes, I used disposable passwords). First I attempted to FTP the files directly to the server. I found that the FTP connection was dropped after transferring about 8k bytes. Next, I tried http put to my web server with a similar result. Finally I tried to send each picture as an e-mail attachment. This also failed. It seems that China does not want any unauthorized information going OUT of the country. I finally tried running an FTP server locally on the dynamic IP (163.net) and connecting to it from outside (after telnetting to my US based server). Amazingly enough it worked! Files can be moved out of China from an internal server but not from a client.
As far as free access to information goes, good luck. They seem to have several layers of control. The first layer is DNS. Just about any US based radio or TV domain name will not resolve. You might be able to get to the site if you can get the IP address (perhaps using a method similar to above). Many sites use the hostname in the http query to determine which site to serve, in these cases you're out of luck. There may be DNS and web proxies that you can use but these are fleeting.
--
Sigs are a waste of space
though I'm in the USA for the moment..
You probably will not notice a substantial abridgement of your freedoms when you get there. However, due to the developing nature of China, many processes are highly aggravating.
Sure, you cannot access porn online- as easily as in the USA. It is still there, and you can find it.
One thing that really has pissed me off was that I left my computer at home in the USA running a server registered with DynDNS- I'm guessing all the domains with DDNS are blocked by china. I justed wanted access to my own stuff at home, not to start an insurrection.
All I can say is, feel free to express yourself at the right time, but use discretion.
If you want access to all your files, buy a 1GB flashdrive and copy all your important stuff on to that. Buy 2 or 3 if you need, or take a laptop.
A witty saying proves you are wittier than the next guy.
They are very unlikely to do this to a foreign citizen unless what you are doing is or can be construed to be espionage or subversion. They are welcoming foreigners with open arms because they want your capital, skills, knowledge etc. so they are less likely to come down on you than one of their own citizens.
If what you were doing was offensive enough to them and you got caught you would almost certainly be deported which is true of just about any country where you are on a visa. If you are openly violating their law there is always a chance you would go to jail but thats true of any country. The U.S. embassy probably would try to spring you unless you were getting what you deserved.
At this point I think its a subject of debate on whether the China or the U.S. is actually worse in this regard. Hundreds if not thousands of foreigners have been locked up in the U.S. in the aftermath of 9/11 without due process, without lawyers, without trials, without access to their families, and often under varying degrees of stress, sleep deprivation for example, if not rising to the level of torture. About the only thing many of them were guilty of are various visa infractions, which should at most have resulted in deportation, not indefinite detention without due process.
China probably does it on a larger scale but the U.S. and Americans no longer have the slightest morale high ground on which to challenge oppression and lawlessness in China. Certainly censorship isn't as bad in the U.S. but as far as unlawful arrests go the U.S. is at the same level as China. You can thank the Bush administration for lowering the U.S. to the same level has authoritarian states around the globe in this respect.
@de_machina
Hello, I know it is possible to circumvent the Chinese Firewall and such, but exactly how do you do it? Who is your contact in the Network Administration Administration? Do you discuss these issues with other people inside the firewall? What are their names and do you know where they live? No, I am just curious. I do not work for the glorious and envied government of PRC.
I will assume that the poster is an American citizen working in China, since he/she did not mention being there before. There is such a thing as extradition. Yes, that means they can't just randomly arrest US citizens for surfing the BBC and proceed with a closed-door trial w/ US Embassy intervention. Chances are, the poster will not try to start a revolution or organize a mass protest and will not be at any risk. And even if he/she did, the government would find it simply easier to just revoke the Visa and deport him/her than unlawfully detain the person. Unauthorized jailing of US citizens is equal to an international incident and it would just be easier to deport the offender. It sounds like the parent saw one too many viewings of The Red Corner. I'll say this again, the Chinese government is WAYYY too inefficent and lazy to pursue ex-pats looking at western news sources. They've got bigger fish to fish.
If you're not trying to topple the Chinese government from the inside, you've got nothing to worry about.
I know that sounds "insightful" from where you are, but I live in China, and nobody gets "dragged off in the dead of night". It's just like everywhere else. If you get into legal trouble, you just bribe your way out of it. If you go to China intending on overthrowing the government, you can expect to end up in their version of Leavenworth, just like any foreigner who goes to another country to make trouble.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
The Christian Science Monitor, which is a non-partisan newspaper I like to read online sometimes, wrote an article about Tiananmen Square. How many students were killed, run over by tanks, and otherwise butchered? The answer: We don't know. In fact, evidence is starting to show that no students were killed in the square at all. When there's no foreign reporters around, and the government is the only one that's talking, it is indeed dramatic misportrayal of the facts that tends to take over. That said, estimates of fatalities outside the square range vary, but it was *after* the peaceful protest left the square.
Secondly, I listen to WMBI, which is decidedly right-leaning. Yet, on one of their programs, one of the church leaders in Bejing reported that the government was not stifling state-allowed religions... in fact, the government was very much hands-off. (As Christianity is the fastest-growing religion in China, it may not be coincedence.) It was a different voice from the now-familiar persecution of believers in China, although, once again, that type of persecution was reported to have gone on in the rural areas -- it just wasn't as widespread as most Americans would believe.
I very much appreciate these examples as a welcomed, different view into what China is actually like versus what everyone says it's like.
-Rob
Marriage doesn't have to suck!
Yes *chinese* people are arrested... But I wasn't arrested for telling Chinese their policy on Taiwan was utter bullshit. Then again, I was not making a public spectacle.
I've lived in china, and though it is not quite a utopia, I'll be living there for a few years more.
Taiwan is cool too; Taipei is a happening place.
A witty saying proves you are wittier than the next guy.
If you even have to ask these questions, you're hopelessly naive,...
I can hardly believe I'm responding to the flood of xenophobic ignorance in this thread, but I have a number of close friends who have spent considerable amounts of time living and travelling through various parts of China, and the ones being naive are you and everyone else here with the exception of the OP and the guy a few comments up who pointed out the the Chinese government are largely not interested in what you, a Westerner, are doing on the internet. The Great Firewall is there to monitor and control Chinese citizens.
All this hysterical bleating about being dragged off for re-education is just absolute nonsense. The Chinese government most definately is not interested in unnecessarily pissing off Western governments right at the moment (they're even holding the next Olympics there for god's sake).
Now, if you're a Chinese citizen then this is all a very different kettle of fish altogether, but if you're a Westerner, just take along a floppy disk with PuTTY on it, ssh into a friend's box in the US, and tunnel HTTP over the connection. Simple and unmonitorable.
You know they call 'em fingers but I've never seen 'em fing. Oh, there they go.
Freedom is not an incompatable world view.
Democracy is not an incompatable world view.
Human rights are not an incompatable world view.
Equality under the law is not an incompatable world view.
All of these are basic rights for all human beings. The fact that the Communist government of China has refused to recognize them is not due to "an incompatable world view," its due to a small nomenklatura of Communist elites denying these rights to their people. The ideas themselves are no more alien to China than they were alien to Japan in 1945.
- Crow T. Trollbot
You are wrong, sir, I can indeed waste my day away reading slashdot in china.
Many news sites in English are not blocked...yet, who knows.
A witty saying proves you are wittier than the next guy.
...you will be rewarded by being able to purchase almost any piece of software known to man for around $3. Any movie for about $1, and game for about $3.
There are malls there that are huge, and hold nothing but pirated software. Also, they copy EVERYthing, even entire cars. Honda in fact hired them for some parts manufacturing because they copied theirs so well for a much lower cost. If you can't beat them... They even introduced a complete copy of a "GM" car before GM even announced it. They are absolute masters at copying everything, manufacturing those copies, and even industrial espioniage. And the speed at which they do it is amazing.
It's a bootleg economy. Enjoy it I say!
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel Boorstin
It seems to me very few of you have actually been to China or even understand how the system there works. For the same reason why Europeans think we're a country of hicks driving around in a pickup with shotguns who elected a idiot to office is why you think the Chinese is some sort of omni-present superpower that oversees all of the minute details of its citizens' lives and takes sadistic pleasure in torture. You're taking in media hype and a fear of the unknown. China has its share of problems: freedom of speech and freedom of religion come to mind. These are serious issues that need to be addressed but that doesn't mean everytime you commit a crime in China you will be sent into "reeducation." That also doesn't mean if you use a proxy to surf the web that they're going to break your thumbs. The Chinese government are too busy with the same serious issues that the US is dealing with to be bothered by these minor offenses.
While it may sound like the Chinese police force operate a Gestapo-like regime but that's far from the truth. Believe or not, China has laws and 99% of the time, they are followed. They also have lawyers that will free an innocent man. Some people vision of a totalitarian society governed by "The Party" are just too far fetched. Do they honestly think that the police operate on whatever laws they please and the people live in constant fear? I'll tell you from actually lived in China that it is hardly the case. People are way too reoccupied w/ making money to give a shit. Just remember the same media that is telling you to be afraid of China is the same one that ran the special on 20/20 about the wide-spread dangers of drier lint fires and the world-wide SARS epedemic.
I have. It really opened my eyes to the freedoms we enjoy versus the freedoms they enjoy.
I have family in Shanghai (huge city), Xi'an (pretty big city), BaoJi City (Medium-sized city), and a small villiage nearby. I have travelled to all of these places and stayed wih my relatives. As a native-born American, I was thoroughly impressed with the freedom that they enjoy.
Many Chinese never even come in contact with a Policeman. Judges and government officials (my cousin is a Provincial (read: State) Supreme Court Judge, and her husband is a high-ranking government official, BTW) live like common "folk," and people do and say almost anything they want. My nephews all play Counterstrike on-line against their classmates, and they all surf the internet. You have to understand that Chinese people are just not into Pr0n and such things like we (Americans) are. So, for them, not having access to Pr0n just isn't a big deal.
But hey, don't take my word for it. Go see for yourself.
Oh, and the one baby thing is only enforced in the big cities. Again, don't take my word for it. Most of my family in the smaller areas have several children.
What was her crime? He wanted to mail copies of publicly available news articles to her husband residing in the USA. The articles dealt with the plight of women in Chinese society. She is serving an 8 year prison sentence, starting in 2000.
Is anyone angered by this incident? I was infuriated when I received the documents from AI. Visiting China may be "safe" for foreigners, but should we not express our moral outrage by boycotting China and its products?
When I was there in September, SSHing to my shell account worked just fine. Tunnel through that, and you'll be fine.
If you're going to do human rights work there, that it's probably best to do one illegal thing at a time. So, don't look at porn when your issue is Falun Gong. And likewise, don't look at Falun Gong sites if your issue is porn.
If you're just on vacation, consider spending your time seeing the sites rather than surfing the net. It'll be there when you get home.
Ignore all the idiots on this site who tell you to obey unjust laws.
Become a FSF associate member before the low #s are used
We (rightly) put down rebellions within our borders(cf. the Civil War). They are terrorism. It doesn't matter how political they are; actually, being especially political means you are committing treason and not just causing destruction.
The civil war was 150 years ago. Today, when there are protestors, we let them have at it, and mostly just watch until the destruction is over. If the police overstep their roles or break the law they put on trial, fined, or fired.
We execute lots of people. Why is it so important that they use cheap bullets rather than expensive injections?
We execute a relative few. In the whole country somewhere between 200 and 300 people per year. The average stay on death row is between 5 and 10 years. The average death row inmate has had between 3 and 5 lawyers. The average death row inmmate has been in court and in front of a judge at least 6 times. None of these things is true about China. It has nothing to do with the cost of the bullet. It has everything to do with the process. China hems and haws about even disclosing how many people it executes. There is no presumption of innocence. There is no right to appeal. No right to seek a pardon.
You can't joke about killing the President
You can in fact joke about killing the President. You cannot enter into a conspiracy to kill the President (or anyone). You cannot solicit people to kill the the President (or anyone). You cannot ask that another person should kill a person. If you do make statemnets amount about the President and killing him you likely will get investigated by the Secret Service to determine if you have entered into a plot to kill the President. If you haven't then nothing happens. You can say anything about Scientology. You cannot republish copyright protected documents without permission. If you do, you may be sued and/or receive a letter from an attorney
We dropped two nukes on two cities, something nobody else has done, to keep the rest of the WORLD in line; and have waged war since.
No, we dropped two nukes for the explict purpose of defeating Japan. Even after the first they did not surrender. Hence the second. We showed restrainant when others would have shown known. After World War II we had the most powerful military in the history of the world. We had the most power economy in the history of the world. Our economic engine was producing war time goods at a rate that all the nations of the world combined could not match our power. We could have dominated the world, and who would have opposed us? The peasantry of China? The ruins that once were great nations in Europe? The decimated demoralized Soviets? In 1945 we could have rolled over the world, dominating and taking anything we wanted. There were no limits to the power we could project. Europe, Africa, Asia - even China would be fall to their knees in realization of American power. Yet we did not puruse that course. We rebuilt Germany. We brought democracy to Japan. We liberated and left France. We helped our sworn enemies. We established a home land in the middle east for the Jews out of compassion and remorse for a crime we did not commit.
I love America. And I've spent my life loving America. I'll never deny our collective mistakes but I will certainly not equate them to the routine barbary that is found so often and with such foulness across the world. America has its many problems. America is flawed, and growing more so. But it will be a cold day in hell when you can equte America with communist China.
The fact remains that the Bill of Rights - even in its decaying form - offers more protection, more glorious freedom, more liberty than most people of the world dare to aspire to obtain.
Yeah because we all know Republicans are bigots, right?
I don't recall mentioning Democats, Republicans or any other politcal party in my original post. I was pointing out that our country has also had it's problems with civil liberties in the past. Perhaps you have a guilty concious. Some of that White Christian guilt?
How many Republican KKK members have you heard of? I'd dare say little to none
Ummmmm David Duke is Republican and also a grand wizard. The roles have reversed in this country. The Democrats were once the party of racists. The Democrats are now more tolerant of peoples race. This is also reflected in the switch in the deep south from Democrat to Republican. Yep the south is racist. Remember the segregated prom in Georgia last year?
Get your facts straight before calling some one an idiot..... idiot.
Encryption in China is illegal, but the general rule of thumb in China is that foreigners are not handled very roughly.
That said, I've set up people who want to have decent access to news outlets and generally anonymize themselves on the TOR network, which is a great project from the folks at the EFF.
TOR (http://tor.eff.org/) uses onion routing to bounce you around within their cloud of secure servers, which makes it very difficult to see who you are, where you're going, and where you came from. You can tunnel almost anything over it, and it's open source.
I've found it to be very fast (even on China's slower internet connections), and those who use it love it.
$45 per U Colocation Special
You're only telling half the story though. It used to be called the "Solid South" for the Democratic party, until a little something called the Civil Rights Act. Once the Northern Democrats and LBJ got their way and actually started granting rights to blacks living in the South, the Democratic party lost a large percentage of the southern white voters over that single issue. There are still some of the old Democrats hanging around, like Zell Miller, who didn't change party association, even though they no longer hold mainstream Democratic viewpoints, but by and large, the South has been ceded to the Republican party. Commission a poll from Gallup that correlates Party ID with this question: "Do you approve or disapprove of interracial marriage?" You'll have all the answers you need about which party contains the most racists. I'm also curious to hear your theories about why black voters overwhelmingly vote Democratic, since the Republican party is apparently so progressive.
When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout. --Robert A. Heinlein
Well, from 1984-89, several U.S. Companies and the CDC, with the approval of the U.S. Department of Commerce, sold several chemicals to Iraq, who at the time, was at war with Iran. Here is a short list of goodies we sold them.
Bacillus Anthracis
Clostridium Botulinum
Histoplasma Capsulatam
Brucella Melitensis
Clostridium Perfringens
Clostridium tetani
Escherichia coli
This was confirmed By CDC records, Senate Banking Commision records, and U.N. weapons inspectors.
-William
God is everything science has yet to explain.
As you said there is not a one to one mach for any of them.
Look at the posts.
The first one is critical of the reduction of US civil liberties after 9/11. Okay so this is the same as sending in tanks to stop protesters? Plus it is "critical" of government policy! Try that in China.
The next one has this line in it "Ross, a convicted serial murderer who has admitted killing eight women in the 1980s, says he wants to waive his appeals and die". How is this even close to killing someone for protesting? How long has his case been going through the system? How many checks and balances? I want to see the my nation stop capital punishment. If I was Chinese could I say that on a public forum?
Your next link is critical of reductions in personal freedom since 9/11. Notice that it is critical of them plus no of the examples of abuses are running students over with tanks for protesting.
You next one on freedom of speech totally a none issue. A company stopped hosting a website. Not the government but a private company. Get a new hosting company. For all we know they did not pay there bill.
The link on making money on prisoners. This is critical of some local cities for seeing prisons as a source of jobs. You know construction, catering, and staff. Not using prisoners for slave labor. No shade here.
Finally the last link. Again it is critical of US policy. It talks about problems the US is having gathering information in Afghanistan. From you link "The experiences of Shamsulrachman, the villager in Sawai, suggest differences in treatment. He says marines searched his house recently and found nothing. But when they discovered a shell casing outside of a neighbor's house that he says dated from the Soviet era, they told him they were going to arrest him. He says the Marines were civil,"
I do not see any match here.
Your last link... Could you have a page like that in China?
The original post was that China is not as bad as you think and the media over states the problems.
Of course the US is not perfect, no country is. Where are you on the whole safer and free? Your post pretty much proves my point.
Is the US perfect? You do not think so? Lets talk about it. Let's try and improve things. Hey we could try and let others know about the things we feel need changing.
Is China perfect..... Let's just say that it is. The is for the best.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Aw, that sucks... 3 minutes late, and you don't get the extra "Funny" point... c'mon Mods... boost a brother up... he's just as funny, just a little, uh, slow. :)
Witness our current shining success in Iraq.
The problems in Iraq have more to do with lack of security than people wanting to express their minds freely. Had the US done a better job in implementing security post-invasion, I'd wager the problems we see now would have been greatly reduced. You can find any number of 'man in the street' articles with Iraqis basically saying 'Thanks for getting rid of the tyrant, but why do I have to deal with carjackers everyday now?' I'd guess a majority were more than ready to be free of Saddam, but they were not happy that it was traded for anarchy.
How about helping those that want to break the yoke but can't.
You make the mistake of thinking you can educate the fundamental stupidity out of people. You can't.
Chemical weapons include such nasties as Mustard Gas, VX, and other blood and nerve agents.
Also, I doubt very seriously that Iraq approached us, and said "Hey, we'd like to make some biological weapons so we can really stick it to the Iranians, with whom we are at war. Waddya say?"
The CDC wouldn't have been involved if the request wasn't made under the guise of medical research. If we hadn't provided it, they could have gotten it from any number of other sources.
I'm not saying we never sold them chemical weapons, or the makings thereof... Just that these aren't them.
Not everything is as sinister as you think it is.
For those that would die defending it, Freedom
has a sweet taste that the protected will never know.
You can in fact joke about killing the President
Actually, you can't joke about anything.
For example:
two Brazilian surfers were arrested in Miami's International Airport under terrorist charges. Mizael Cabral, born in Paraíba, and Daniel Correia, from Rio de Janeiro, spent a good amount of time in Uncle Sam's land working hard to save money so that they could start a surf board factory in João Pessoa. They bought as suction pump here that would make their job a lot easier, but something really weird happened in the airport while they were going back to Brazil. According to the American authorities, they were joking about having that suction pump (pump and bomb are the same word in brazilian portuguese). The man from Paraíba supposedly asked the inspector in the airport: "Haven' you found the bomb in the bag yet?" And the one from Rio would've said: "If you open up my bag, it will explode". In cuffs, the two men were taken to Miami's Jail under the charges of "false information about explosives, with malicious intentions, irresponsibility and disregard for the human lives safety". They can be sentenced up to five years in prison and they will have to pay US$ 250 thousand dollars each. They have been in jail for almost a month and the press has no access to them.
They are now back in Brazil, after plead guilty of terrorism! Deported.
There is no presumption of innocence. There is no right to appeal.
You got that right!
I shot the sheriff
No matter what the topic, it can always be turned into an Iraq bitchfest.
I'm writing this way too late to get modded high enough for anyone to see but maybe someone will see it and it'll help. The irony is that I'm so late in posting as I'm in China and just woke up this morning.
I was here briefly last summer and am now doing a semester abroad. China really is not that a bad of a place to be. It seems most of the replies are very negative or sarcastic about the security situation in China. In all seriousness, living here as a foreigner is not that bad. Sure you have to deal with weird, to the US, government regulations, but I don't feel as though I'm under an iron fist or anything. Just respect the culture and their customs/laws and you will have a great time.
Oh and if you take the time to learn even a bit of the language it can help immensely. I know I've run into many people who were much more cordial when I told them (in Chinese) that I was a student here learning the language.
Everyone has different experiences, especially if you are ABC or even look remotely Chinese. But instead of listening to a bunch of other people talk about it, just take a 2 week trip to China and see for yourself. I think more Americans need to get out and see the realities of the world (although my cynicism says that when the they do the average Americans will do something stupid, get into trouble, and then blame it not on themselves but on the country they are in)
I've lived there and seen it for myself.
/. :-) )
I lived for 4 months in Baoji and then for 2.5 years in Shanghai. My girlfriend lived for 2 years in Baoji working in University and Middle Schools and for 6 months in Beijing. So, I've seen and experienced probably more than you.
Living in China made me realize how much freedom we have in the west. Yes, many people speak quite openly about what they dislike. As do most people still believe Mao was the greatest person on earth (put some "70% good, 30% bad" in it to water it a bit down). But you realize how much freedom is missing when people criticize the government and keep looking over their shoulders if no strangers are listening. Can you imagine bashing Bush in Central Park in New York or bashing Blair in London and worrying that someone might hear it and get you into trouble? Privately and with foreigners they don't risk too much by being honest.
The worst thing about China in my experience is the utterly useless and terrible media (because of the extreme censorship) and the non-existing legal system. So, theoretically many people have rights. But when a street with its buildings gets completely destroyed outside the university (as happened in Baoji) to make room for a wider road, then theoretically all the shop owners and restaurant owners get compensated for losing their main source of income. But they don't and they don't even think about going to court because it's useless.
It's true about the police, but only because the police actually has little rights. The communist party is the ruler and they take care of things. But aside from that Chinese are in most cases very decent people (much more than in the west) because of peer pressure to not lose face for the family and other reasons.
Go there for a longer period of time and you'll see what the real deal is. Most people only go for some weeks or months and haven't even scratched the surface. The Chinese people are very good at making you believe things are great and only later you find out that things actually aren't great.
(Not often that I see the precious chicken (Baoji) mentioned on
No, it's not OK now. The world is a patchwork of territories, with every one of the major players having claims all over. When the western world became "civilized" (debatable), the territories were left as-is. The Brits have the Falkland Islands, the US has Pear Harbour and Guantanamo Bay (another wierd one) and so on.
Democracy in it's current incarnation is a farce. Do you really believe that if the residents of a country wanted independance they'd get it? Bear in mind I'm sitting in Scotland here, where a large percentage of the population wants it, but there ain't gonna be a vote on it. Over the water from me, Northern Ireland has been contested over by terrorist groups (funded from the US ironically) for decades, and it's not worked for them. On the other hand, we have Yugoslavia, where a bloody civil war got nations their independance.
The only peacefull change that springs to mind was the UK's hand-over to China recently. The whole independance giving (which China ain't!) thing isn't all that popular.
Tibet has been a part of China for hundreds, if not thousands of years. It's status only came into question in the last fifty, thanks to the involvement of the CIA, during the cold war. Remember that? Lot's other places were contested over.
The fact is that I don't have a clue about whether the Tibetans want independance. But I'm not going to blindly believe the usual anti-communist crap that the US has been spilling for years.
There are some serious misunderstandings about China being voiced here -- even by people who have gone there. I can understand this. I spent seven years in China and saw many misunderstandings both by people who had just gotten there and by people who had lived there but never bothered to really immerse themselves in it.
China is a wonderful place. The people are nice. The culture is respect-worthy. The landscape is beautiful. The history is intoxicating.
Is there corruption, especially in the really rural areas? Yes. But if you understand the culture and the guanxi (relationships) system then you will have few problems. They ask for 15 RMB for something that is supposed to be free? Give it. Who cares? It's two bucks. Though usually, if you speak some chinese, you can demonstrate that you are a friend of the country and of its people and get around with no hassles.
As for the government's rejection of human rights -- things are relative. I don't approve of everything that the Chinese government does, but I also appreciate that there is an amount of ethnorelativism that needs to be engaged consciously. For instance, the UN definition of human rights includes a provision that allows everyone to live at a certain basic level -- something we know as welfare. But Americans wouldn't submit to that being a human right. Much of the world's declaration of human rights is not considered valid in the developing world because people see them as western-defined examples of human _needs_ -- something everyone accepts. (Read Azar. Human needs fit into three groups -- security (food, protection, water, etc), acceptance (for whatever group you identify with) and access to/participation in the institutions that allocate resources (markets or governments.)
As for Internet access -- it is easy to come by. It isn't the fastest stuff in the world (esp. outside of the big cities) but the blocks are nominal. You can get around them as well. Some methods are mentioned in this thread.
You shouldn't worry about having your freedoms repressed. Just be sensitive. Just like you wouldn't walk around Saudi Arabia (as a woman) wearing a bikini top screaming "you should be allowed to do this too!" you don't walk around China doing things that aren't culturally acceptable. It is disrespectful. And in China respect means a lot.
So I hope you do it. The best seven years of my life (so far) were those spent in China. It was a mind-opening experience. If you have any questions you can email me. (Just make sure that you write a good subject line so I don't click "junk.") Take care! Oh, and don't listen to anyone who says China sucks or is oppressive. The experience of individuals can be awful anywhere. But statistically speaking the vast majority of Chinese and of foreigners live happily.
What comes first, finding a teacher or becoming a student?
I have lived in Shanghai for 4 years (U.S. born, white male). Life in Shanghai is very easy. Its simply a very large city...other than that, there is nothing that a normal U.S. citizen would find "oppressive". If you are a person who is compelled to stand on street corners in the U.S. and stir up a riot over government policies, then neither the U.S. nor China are for you at the moment. But if you are a normal person who isn't interested in stirring a revolution, China is simply not an oppressive place. You can have small group and one-on-one conversations about anything you want (even politically sensitive issues). You can access almost any content you may desire over the net (some porn sites have been blocked...some chinese political content (in Madarin, so you couldn't read it anyway) has been blocked)...but google works as you would expect and most any business which requires internet access can be conducted fairly easily. Sure, doing things like extending your visa requires going to a gov building and waiting in line, but how often do you do this? Its not much different than going to a U.S. gov office. Other services are mostly private/free-enterprise and are very easily accessed; your largest barrier is language. As with almost any travel around the world, an open mind and a friendly smile will do lots to improve your experience. In terms of the Internet...it is very slow to access non-China servers. This is caused by two major issues: 1 - the "Great Firewall" and 2 - enormous amounts of local traffic (lots of it due to infected PCs). Best guess is that its item 2 that is the biggest problem with traffic, since the content filter isn't real-time (or so it would appear). MS's recent announcement to not continue to security patch unlicensed copies of Windows will no doubt add to this problem. As to other places besides Shanghai, well this is the top city China for westerners to do business so its the easiest...for anywhere else you can scale down your expectations on services from here; but freedom of expression, movement, etc...are all pretty smooth so long as your not here to stir up trouble. Good luck to you...