John Barlow Pushes Open Source in Brazil

greysky writes "This story on Foxnews.com reports that as part of the larger World Social Forum, Barlow spoke on how open source software can help alleviate financial problems of developing countries: "Already, Brazil spends more in licensing fees on proprietary software than it spends on hunger"." NPR talks about how Brazil plans to switch 300,000 machines over.

Comments

As a Libertarian

[Anonymous Coward]

Shouldn't he want the government to spend the same on software as on poverty? $0?

Re:As a Libertarian

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a hint; the first sign you are an idiot is when _you_ start to tell people what _they_ think, according to the little mental boxes _you_ have fitted them into, and that _you_ have defined characteristics for.

Re:As a Libertarian

[Anonymous Coward]

Do _you_ always _use_ these _underscore symbols_ to _highlight_ words? How do _they_ translate _into_ your _speech_?

Maintenance

[LEgregius]

In developing countries, licensing cost are astronomical compared to labor charges, so even if all the MS FUD were true for the US and Europe regarding TCO, it wouldn't be the case in developing countries since the cost of training and paying labor to do upkeep on the systems would be relatively low. I'm not saying I believe TCO is higher for linux, just that it would still be cheaper in developing countries.

Re:Maintenance

[adam_j_bradley]

I thought that in some developing countries that the financial burden of software licensing wasn't an issue at all...

Re:Maintenance

[ceeam]

In developing countries the cheap labor just installs whatever they are comfortable with and pisses on all of your "licensing costs". Do you seriously think that someone without Unix background will dive into it for $3/hr? Come on. Also - do you think that some local "big cahunna" will trust the cheap worker more than a US company that sells its software for a huge amount of money (represented by seriously looking "suits")?

Re:Maintenance

[acariquara]

It usually isn't if you are at home, but businesses do have to pay for their licenses, or they may be charged with tax evasion, and that is a serious offence even here in Brazil.

That being said, I have some expericence in setting up networks for my former college (federal institution, here the best colleges are the public ones, usually) and they *really* don't give a flying shit about using warezed copies of Windows in their labs, and no one ever has complained/charged/arrested/whatever.

OMG

[Anonymous Coward]

Fox news and open source, not sure what a Slashbot should do... malfunctioning.. ERROR... untrustworthy evil neocon news site speaks of open source holy grail greatness... err DOES NOT COMPUTE...

NO CARRIER

Re:OMG

[FunWithHeadlines]

I noticed that too and thought it was very funny. The network that is against freedom of thought talking about freedom of expression in software.

Re:OMG

[FunWithHeadlines]

"How many conservative analysts on CNN, ABC, CBS, and NBC?"

All, more or less. Look at how all of those channels let the White House get away with things that had Clinton done it the Republicans would have howled about endlessly. All those channels follow White House talking points. The White House calls Iraqis fighting American troops "insurgents"? Then so do CNN, ABC, CBS, and NBC. All of those channels are owned by conservative corporate entities.

What makes Fox news so unique is the nakedness with which it uses its propaganda techniques. Those other channels use them too, but they are more subtle. With Fox it's as plain as can be.

Re:OMG

[ninewands]

Relax, take a deep breath ... Fox was merely reporting what was said at the conference not extolling the virtue of FOSS ... and DEFINITELY not endorsing the things said at the conference. If you will note, they did say "Activists at a leftist gathering ... " in their opening blurb.

Breathe deeply, calm down ... all is normal.

Re:OMG

[Hatta]

The implication is that the media always uses the terms the president uses. Look at how "private accounts" became "personal accounts" and all the media changed in lockstep.

We have to come to terms with the fact that the media is not biased towards the left, or biased towards the right. It is biased towards power.

Re:OMG

[FunWithHeadlines]

"We have to come to terms with the fact that the media is not biased towards the left, or biased towards the right. It is biased towards power."

That is very well said, and it cuts to the truth. If liberals were in power, the media would appear more liberal. Now that conservatives are in power, the media appears more conservative. It's all about money to the media, and whatever it takes to curry favor with those in power so that they can get favorable deals and increase their bottom line.

That's why you cannot get the whole story out of the mainstream media. You see it more clearly in countries that are not used to the American level of freedom. Old-style Soviet reporting, for instance, which was overtly propagandistic. Or in Ukraine which, during the original presidential election period, saw the state-run TV stations all but ignore Yuschenko's candidacy. When we see that, we call it propaganda easily, for we can so easily see the ties between state and corporations.

Those same ties exist in America, but instead of being held in place militarily, it is done economically, and in much more subtle ways. Ask awkward questions of President Bush? You'll find yourself being cut out of the loop in the future. Report something negative about the White House? You find your advertisers under siege from protest groups, and the economic push to conform to the White House view. It's a constant push against dissent of any kind, and it has an effect.

Licensing Fees

[teiresias]

"Already, Brazil spends more in licensing fees on proprietary software than it spends on hunger"."

A point most modern countries should take note of. When licensing fees make up such a large part of your operating budget, it seems foolish to simply accept it and continue with business and not look for other options.

I'd prefer my country spending a little bit less on licensing fees and a little more on it's people.

Of course, without the newest version of Office, I suppose they couldn't make neato graphs to justify the latest software licenses expenditures.

Re:Licensing Fees

[chris09876]

When I read that, my jaw dropped open. That's just sick. I don't understand how a country can think it's acting for the good of its people when it spends so much money on licensing proprietary software. I suppose there are worse things - for example spending that much money on weapons to kill people when your own people are starving..., but things like that probably point to bigger issues in the administration.

Re:Licensing Fees

[AndroidCat]

In the 80s, Brazil went the route of not respecting any outside IP rights for software or hardware. I imagine that digging themselves out of that hole is part of the reason that they're paying so much now. It would be ironic if punitive licencing fees "until the pips squeek" now drive them to OSS alternatives.

Hunger?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm all for governments saving money -- here, Brazil or anywhere else. But it's worth pointing out that what Brazil spends on "hunger" is constrained by the fact that there isn't widespread starvation there. (There are plenty of desperately poor people, obviously.) Brazil isn't Sudan.

By the way, just how long is Barlow going to coast on co-writing some Grateful Dead lyrics forty years ago? Isn't there a statute of limitations or something?

Re:Hunger?

[spif]

By the way, just how long is Barlow going to coast on co-writing some Grateful Dead lyrics forty years ago? Isn't there a statute of limitations or something?

Yeah, you're right, it's not as if he co-founded the EFF or has a fellowship at Harvard Law or anything like that.

hmm.

Re:Hunger?

[scottfk]

There isn't starvation in Brazil? Maybe they're not on the scale of Sudan, but there is definitely widespread hunger in the Northeast.

The closest I can find to a stastic is at the bottom of this article:

http://www.globalaging.org/ruralaging/world/lula 2. htm

It says that depending on who you ask, between 16 and 46 million (read the article for an explanation of the variation) out of a population of 171 million go hungry.

If you read Brazilian Portuguese, peruse http://www.fomezero.gov.br/ for more information about what Lula's government are trying to do about it.

Embarassing!

[bogaboga]

from the article: "[...] but the loosely organized event ran into an embarrassing glitch Saturday when two big screens betrayed the fact that the computer was running on Windows, with the operating system's toolbar visible at the bottom of the screens.[...]

This is unacceptable. Why did they even have Windows systems anywhere arround? Let me hope these systems were not brought in by one inclined to subotage the whole event. M$ must be laughing...!

Re:Embarassing!

[obender]

From TFA:

Lessig noticed and the computer was quickly disconnected and replaced with a laptop running on open-source software.

They replaced the windows computer as soon as they discovered it. I wonder how long before that becomes common practice all over the world.

Numbers Please

[Ironsides]

"Already, Brazil spends more in licensing fees on proprietary software than it spends on hunger".

Can anyone provide the numbers to back this up? Also, I would like to see about what the ratio is between the two.

Re:Numbers Please

[felipin-sioux]

Can anyone provide the numbers to back this up? Also, I would like to see about what the ratio is between the two.

I don't think this is information is true. Brazil has the largest program to adopt open source in world. Wired run an interesting story about this last November.

Re:Numbers Please

[Cyberhawk]

Links in portuguese:

Some numbers:

- Budget on Federal IT spending: R$1,9bi (~US$ 720 mi)

- Budget to spend on hunger and income rdistribuition iniciatives : R$1,1bi(~US$415mi)

- Brazil's GNP in 2003: R$1,5trillion(~US$565bi)

- National Debt/GNP ratio: 58%.

- Money saved from not acquiring licenses: R$28mi(~US$10.5mi)

Some ranting:

- There is way too much hype about this technological policy in Brazil. The largest part of public spending in IT has never been on acquiring office licenses or MS-Windows stations. The largest piece of the pie has always gone to enterprise-wide systems. Unysis and Oracle are everywhere in government servers, and they get the big bucks. 28 million compared to a billionaire budget is pocket change. If they wanted to actually reduce costs, they would have to go after these guys.

- This stupid leftist (real left, not the Democrat Party kinda thing) government decided they should go after Microsoft because they are part of the Evil Empire. As an example, Lula refused to meet Bill Gates at Davos, just to show that they don't need MS anymore. He might get huge support from the open source crowd, but still think it was moronic attitude, politically speaking.

- Famine or hunger has hardly been a real problem in Brazil. Poverty and terrible distribution of wealth certainly are a bigger cause of concern. And the budget shows that: 0,1% of the budget spending hardly makes a "War on Hunger", as our beloved president wanted.

- As someone said above: Brazil is not Sudan. It has a huge, diverse economy, and is not by dictating one particular policy that they are going to solve our bigger issues.

FTA

[nitio]

All the social forum's 800 computers are running on open-source software, but the loosely organized event ran into an embarrassing glitch Saturday when two big screens betrayed the fact that the computer was running on Windows, with the operating system's toolbar visible at the bottom of the screens. Lessig noticed and the computer was quickly disconnected and replaced with a laptop running on open-source software.
If only all proprietary software "problems" could be solved just by disconnecting...

Adopting Linux...

[demon_2k]

There must be a reason why more and more government agencies are adopting Open Source solutions. And i don't think it's all due to promotions. If must be worth the trouble for any organisation for any company to change something that's worked before for something else.
Im interested in TOC, but it's hard to establish where the truth lies. I trust Microsofts comments about the cost of Windows vs Linux about as much as i trust the Open Source community.

Re:Adopting Linux...

[anti-pop-frustration]

Developing countries government adopting linux seems to be a win-win situation:

- Government can save licence money (provinding there's no TCO increase) and use it for more important things (a what is not more important than giving away money to some first world corporation ?)
- People (government IT staff, users etc.) get linux training. Which will eventually transform into more linux user and more contributions.

In short, that kind of moves would greatly help linux reach the "critical mass" holy grail.
Anyway, I hope this is not just wishful thinking...

Well Duh

[Anonymous Coward]

Already, Brazil spends more in licensing fees on proprietary software than it spends on hunger.

Well I would hope so. Who would want to buy hunger?

Now if they were to compare it to how much they spend on pleasure, that would make more sense.

benefits / costs etc

[Exter-C]

One of the biggest benefits to open source is that it gives them a choice to use against microsoft and others on licensing fees. At the end of the day companies making billions in profit do it at the end users expense. I agree that they have R&D budgets to improve business and in general software costs are dropping but you cant beat the ability to develop your own operating system specifically for the department that you want and the root use of that departments need. eg water comapny only monitoring water etc.. no over heads reduced security risks etc. Its much more difficult to do on a windows based operating system simply because the underlying operating system still has the same fundamental flaws as seen previously with the rpc etc etc worms/vulnerabilities.

It makes sense.

[cabazorro]

You run a government agency in Brasil.
You use your budget to:

A. Pay a team of OSS programmers for IT support and in the meantime create jobs and promote domestic-grown-owned-designed and controlled IT resources.

B. Pay for comercial software licenses and thus cut jobs and have the Brasilian tax-payer money go to some trans-national company and meanwhile turn your back on domestic-grown-own-designed IT resources.

MS will shove enough free or discounted mackerel down your throat so you don't learn how to fish and remain somewhat hungry.

Funny Fox News-peak

[br00tus]

"The activists in Brazil are generally united in their oppositon to what many call unbridled capitalism and the policies of the Bush administration." - Something said so often that it's practically a mantra of WSF activists is that they oppose unbridled capitalism (or capitalism, period), and imperialism. It's funny how the US corporate media chokes on printing that word, even when describing what someone else says, and changes it something vague like "the policies of the Bush administration". They won't even print the word when they're reporting on what activists say, it's like the BBC using an actor for Gerry Adams voice. I mean, go to Google News and search for the word imperialism - the first hit is a paleo-conservative web site, the second hit is a communist web site, then a South Korean site talking about Japanese WWII imperialism, then Al-Jazeera. It is one of those words commissars, I mean, editors, excise, even when they're just reporting about what someone said. The thing that gets me is not only do the mainstream corporate media not use the word, they won't even report when others use the word. Fox takes it to the point of ridiculousness, but it's not much different with NBC and so forth (owned by GE, which makes billions as a military contractor by the way).

Re:Funny Fox News-peak

[br00tus]

We will call a spade a spade. That the US corporate media reports on what we say and refuses to even say we are calling the US imperialist tends to make me think we're on the right track (especially when the same corporations profiting from imperialism, like military contractor GE, also owns the media, like NBC). It might be hyperbole if the US didn't invade Iraq, wasn't sending billions every year to Israel and Colombia to oppress respectively Palestinians and indigenous non-whites, didn't have military bases in Japan, Thailand, Germany, Panama, Turkey, and Cuba, a country which has asked the US to leave for the past four and a half decades, to deaf ears of course. Of course, Cuba is then a good place to torture Afghani POWs, since the US doesn't have to worry about being asked to leave - the US has already been asked.

Your example of Japan as being a "true" imperialist is a laugh - Japan imperially invaded countries such as Vietnam, the Phillippines and so forth - in other words, countries which were already within the imperial dominions of Western countries. It's funny how Japan's invasion of the Phillipines is "true imperialism" while the US invasion of the Phillippines, which was fought for years (and is still being fought...by what the State Department calls "terrorists") was I guess not, for to call it that would be "extreme hyperbole" and "over the top".

I suppose when the commissars of US television news decree that the word imperialism is verboten, even when ascribed by others, then anyone using such language would seem extremely hyperbolic and over the top. The real skew however is how things are reported in the US corporate media versus how it is reported in the rest of the world. The concept that Vietnam, Nicaragua or Iraq are or were major threats to the existence of the US is about as hyperbolic as one can get, yet that was the common view one got reading and watching corporate news for the past decades.

Nope, I wasn't trolling

[FunWithHeadlines]

Some right-wing type who can't think for his or herself modded my comment as Troll, but I wasn't trolling, I am serious about what I said, and the evidence is plain to see on any Fox News report. Just look for the propaganda techniques, the slanted, emotionally-laden leading words, and the way they march in lockstep with whatever the White House talking points of the day are. Then look at how they treat anyone who thinks differently than they do. That is the definition of being against freedom of thought.

Now if you happen to agree with their viewpoint, and you magically happen to change your mind to whatever the White House is pushing that day even if it contradicts past talking points, well then you are an amazing coincidence housed in an independent-thinking brain. Or possibly the alternative is true: You too have been influenced by the Fox propaganda techniques.

I'm not a fan of Clinton but....

[leereyno]

I do think he put it best when he said that the best social program is a booming economy.

The idea that the government can accomplish any good by spending money on a nebulous problem like "hunger" is foolish at best. Work on improving the economy and hunger will take care of itself. As for Brazil, they really, really need to work on establishing a viable middle class. The situation right now looks like a validation of marxist idiot-ology.

Lee

Where's the cost savings?

[rudy_wayne]

Governments and businesses want service and support. They are unlikely to purchase any software without it. So take a look at Redhat for example. Their price charts are confusing and horribly laid out, but as near as I can figure, for Redhat Desktop Linux they are charging $13,500 (US) for '50 desktop entitlements'. That's $270 each. How does that represent a savings over Windows?

I guess they could hire a bunch of high school kids to download a free Linux package and then install it on 300,000 computers. But that seems unlikely.

Story on NPR about this...

[Bravo_Two_Zero]

No, I'm not grousing about my rejected submission of the same story... much ;)

NPR's Morning Edition had a short story on this as well: Brazil Makes Move to Open Source Software. The audio has been posted, too. It's not a deep look at open source economics, but it does make the point about Microsoft's main concern of Brazil's actions lending credence to other governments following suit. BillG has requested a meeting with da Silva to discuss it (again... they met in 2002). And, it's nice to see the topic discussed in mainstream media.

Re:Brazilian Budget

[lawpoop]

"Further, when the Brazilian government and Brazilian businesses spend money on licensing fees, they are actually spending money on things toward building an economy that provides jobs. Paying licensing fees is an integral part of a capitalistic economy."

How exactly does shipping money to Redmond, WA help Brazil's economy?

Meanwhile in Redmond...

[AndroidCat]

Steve Ballmer was seen boarding Clippy One for a urgent flight. No news as to the destination, but he was seen packing huge discounts, a large tutti-frutti hat, and practicing various Carmen Miranda song and dance numbers. Where will the Ballmer Bombshell land? Stay tuned!

Re:Brazilian Budget

[temojen]

It doesn't, but that's beyond the point of this troll. He's a constant link-spamming troll, and his link points to some anti-chinese (racist, not just policy) propaganda. He posts the same link on almost every international politics-related story, usually talking about weaponization of space, torture, falun-gong, or tibet.

Transcript of NPR story

[Thagg]

Brazil is changing all 300,000 of its federal government computers from Windows to open source software like Linux. Brazil's interest in different forms of software could be the beginning of a long term shift in the software market. That has Microsoft's founder Bill Gates wanting to talk to Brazil's president, Luiz Ignacio Lula de Silva. Alex Goldmark reports.

Choosing which software to buy may not seem like a scintillating topic. But, in Brazil, excitement is high about switching to Open Source software like Linux, the free operating system which users are free to copy, modify, and distribute as they wish. Brazil isn't just dropping Windows, but all proprietary software. They want access to the code of the software they buy, and to the information that it provides access to. This could spell trouble for Microsoft's business model, according to Georg Greve, president of the Free Software Foundation Europe, which promotes and coordinates open source software projects.

"Brazil certainly poses one of the largest threats to Microsoft there is right now." Greve took time away from a software reception to talk about the importance of Brazil's decision. "If people take that as an example as they are doing all over the world, people look to Brazil for this. Then, the whole monopoly could actually be in danger. So, for Microsoft, it is a pretty seminal thing to stop this now." Up to now, only 10 percent of the government computers are Windows-free, but proponents of Brazil's plan realize, that if Brazil follows through, and becomes the trendsetter it wants to be this could be the beginning of a critical shift in the software world for developing countries. At the World Social Forum hosted here in Brazil this week, John Perry Barlow, founder of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a cyberspace civil liberties group, commented on Bill Gates's moves at the World Economic Forum in Davos.

"Where Bill Gates, who may be the most powerful man in the world, sought an audience with Lula. Why did he do that? Because he is afraid of Brazil. Why is he afraid of Brazil? Because the government has taken the initiative to move this country to open source code."

Across town, at a government sponsored event to promote open source software, Brazil's intentions were clear. [translated] "For Brazil, we don't have any interest in supporting proprietary solutions because we are decided on supporting companies that believe in open source models. Sergio Amadeu is the head of the Brazil Open Source Technology Institute. Next to President Lula, he is the final word on Brazil's software choices. [translated] "We are not against any specific companies. But, there are companies like Microsoft that want to fit the world into their business model. We defend open source because it is better for innovation, better for competition, better for security, and better for stability."

Microsoft representatives in Brazil were not available for an interview. In an e-mail, they said Gates and Lula met in Davos two years ago, and the two have many things to talk about, including bringing technology into impoverished communities, and promoting Brazilian industry. Open Source was not mentioned. Sergio Amadeu, however, was eager to talk about Brazil's open source ambitions. He has been in contact with Venezuela, Korea, India, and several African nations promoting his cause. And that is just what Microsoft is worried about.

For NPR, I'm Alex Goldmark, Porto Allegre, Brazil

--
transcribed by Thad Beier without permission
thad@hammerhead.com if you wish to complain

More on the trip from Lawrence Lessig's blog

[Dammital]

Lessig accompanied Barlow on that trip to Brazil, and wrote a pair of inspirational blog entries.

Da numberz...

[jorlando]

The budget for the fome-zero (zero-hunger) program of hunger erradication among porr families is R$1.68 billion (around US$630 million)

Source: Orçamento do programa Fome-zero (budget for the zero-hunger program)
http://www.camara.gov.br/internet/direto ria/Conleg /notas/2004_4758.pdf

its a official document from Camara dos Deputados (brazilian federal legislative house, deputy chamber)

The stimated value spent by the brazilian government (cites, states and federal government) is R$2 billions (around US$ 740 millions). that info is from the consulting firm 4Linux http://www.linuxplace.com.br/sqush_place/105898724 2/index_html

There is a specialized secretary for IT strategies (Secretaria de Logística e Tecnologia de Infraestrutura) that is collecting data to present "official" values expent with licences.

The Debate in Peru - A must read

[Anonymous Coward]

Guys, you should take a look at the response that a Peruvian congressman gave to Microsoft Peru, when they tried to defeat the open source iniative for the peruvian government. All the debate is there, at the end Bill Gates went to Peru, bought the president and the country kept screwed... Here it is: Click here to read the response

Yay! Anti-left, anti-right!

[bradasch]

This country has many problems. Windows is the least important of them. Our problem is one of ideas.

You mean, you have problems with people who don't think like you?

All of the media (with Veja magazine as the sole exception) ...

Veja is a nice example of anti-government press at its best. You want Rush Limbaugh like opinions? Read Diogo Mainardi (for those not in Brazil, he's a opinion columnist who capitalizes in anti-left articles for this weekly magazine).

Our taxes are insanely high, but no one has the balls to suggest a radical tax cut

A radical tax cut for whom? People who don't care how much they spend on taxes? Or for the low-middle class? Are you aware that cutting taxes on the poor is always met with criticism, simply because it's labeled as populism, demagoguery? How is the government supposed to pay for the basic services it has to provide (and that you request vehemently and rightly) and also the payment of the country's interest debts, if the "correct" agenda is to cut taxes?

Also, are you aware that, according to IBGE, the tax load the country payed last year has decreased, mainly due to economic growth? I bet you didn't read it in Veja. That was on some "soviet nostalgic" piece, right?

World Social Forum? A disgusting bunch of hemp-smoking teenage commie fucktards.They can't bring any solution, because the shit they have in their heads is the cause of these problems.

It's interesting: we have a leftist president for two years now, and the left is already the "cause of these problems". Gee, it's like Brazil was rich as Switzerland two years ago, and some "commie fucktard" came and ruined everything you had. Not only you "forget" everything good happening right now, just for the sake of your argument, but also you need to shut up opinions different from yours, because "our problems is one of ideas". It's so nice to see prejudice exposed like this.

I don't know why I answered this, because you are obviously a teenage troll, but... well, today I have some spare time so there you have it.

FYI

[hummassa]

I work for an State Legislature in the 3rd largest (economically) State of Brasil, Minas Gerais. We are switching (OpenOffice.org first, then Firefox...), slowly, but we are.

Piracy in Brazil

[wronski]

Here in Brazil Linux lacks some of its competitive advantages. It may be free, but so is Windows...

In most cities you can literaly go to a guy in a street corner and buy a pirated copy of Windows, Office or whatever for a few reais (or a music CD or DVD if you fancy it). Some times police make a big show of aprehending & destroying some CDs, but there has been no serious (i.e., consequential) crackdown AFAIK. Most people would consider the idea of paying $$$ for XP quite bizarre, so hardly anyone owns a legal copy. M$ makes money out of business & government. I dont think they expect to ever make money out of home users; but to have an installed base, legal or otherwise, is great for leveraging Windows to business ("Everyone uses it!").