Slashdot Mirror


Digital Life and Evolution

mrivorey writes "Discover Magazine has a story about The Digital Evolution Lab at Michigan State University. Scientists there have created virus-like computer programs that replicate, mutate randomly, and compete with each other... in other words, they evolve. Among such feats as learning to add and compare numbers, these digital life forms also once avoided scientists attempts at "killing" them, by playing dead. You can download the project yourself from SourceForge." We first mentioned this in early 2003, but it appears to have developed a good deal since then.

28 of 541 comments (clear)

  1. QUESTION #4: WHY SEX? by fembots · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The only interesting part that caught my attention is:

    "One of the biggest questions in evolution is, why aren't all organisms asexual?" says Adami. Given the obvious inefficiency of sex, evolutionary biologists suspect that it must confer some powerful advantage that makes it so common. But they have yet to come to a consensus about what that advantage is.

    I think this built-in inefficiency is to control the population, no? So it's important to introduce the idea of "mating" to virus/robots to keep them under control.

    500,000 slashdotters hitting refresh constant-simultaneously is probably still tolerable, how about 4,000,000?

    Oh wait... I guess I'm confused between inefficiency and deficiency now.

    1. Re:QUESTION #4: WHY SEX? by MerryGoByeBye · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I think this built-in inefficiency is to control the population, no?

      No.

      At no point will evolution favor inefficiency for inefficiency's sake. There is always an ulterior, efficient motive. In the case of sex, it's forced genetic diversity. One possible scenario for its promulgation could have been a cyclical death-scenario for some manner of simple organism (say, a recurring chemical change in a lake due to a hot spring or toxic runoff) wherein the asexual descendants (a.k.a. clones) would be successful and dominate for long periods but die off in vast waves whenever the environment changed drastically and rapidly. Those that developed sex and its subsequent genetic diversity had a greater chance of fostering enough differing offspring that at least some of their descendants made it through the local cataclysm.

      Regardless, it's certainly not an inherent "inefficiency".

      It would make sense to introduce sex or its analogue to any life-imitating algorithm, as the implications for the evolution of "mix, match and reward" permutations are many, complex and certainly worthy of further analysis.

    2. Re:QUESTION #4: WHY SEX? by Rob+Carr · · Score: 5, Interesting
      More importantly, Sexual reproduction offers something that's fairly lacking in asexual reproduction: Significant genetic exchange.

      That was the old thought. For years now, scientists have been doubting that theory. The work with the digital life has shown that, while it confers more genetic variety, it also allows more genetic damage to collect.

      Sexually reproducing organisms do not do any better under most simulation conditions.

      Recent studies of giardia have shown that this ancient organism has the genes for sexual reproduction. Apparently, sexual reproduction conferred some powerful advantage, given how early it developed in the history of life. But if this is so, why does giardia not actually use sexual reproduction? The genes are there - they have just never been seen to be activated. In all the conditions so far observed, giardia reproduces asexually. If the advantage of sexual reproduction is so great, why did giardia give it up?

      Enquiring minds, etc.

      --
      This sig seemed like a good idea at the time....
    3. Re:QUESTION #4: WHY SEX? by Davoid · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A possible answer to that is quite simple...

      If the giardia no longer use sexual reproduction (assuming that they once did) it may be that they no longer find that sexual reproduction confers a particular advantage. In other words... it isn't worth the effort.

      --
      "Don't sweat the technique."
    4. Re:QUESTION #4: WHY SEX? by pablodiazgutierrez · · Score: 1, Interesting
      the genetic mixing should help to find the non-viable versions faster, which is good for a population

      I don't see how this is good at all for a population. It only means some of its individuals are not viable, which does not help the community as a whole. I guess you meant that with more variability, there are more chances to find radically different, but viable versions.

    5. Re:QUESTION #4: WHY SEX? by dustmite · · Score: 5, Interesting

      An additional benefit with large organisms (or rather, organisms with brains) is that they can also actively play a part in the gene selection process by evaluating potential mates in an intelligent and decidedly non-random way. Usually (but not always) there is some reasonably rational basis for the selection that ties in with suitability to survival (and more importantly rejecting mates that are poorly suited to survival), so we see with many animals that females will choose the strongest males to mate with, and ignore weaker males or those that appear to have defects. Similar thing when males choose females, although other criteria may be used, usually these are linked to child bearing and raising capabilities.

      Weaver birds as an example are notoriously picky about choosing males that are good at building nests - obviously important for successful reproduction.

      Intelligent organisms are thus active participants in the evolutionary process - they/we guide it. Each species collectively makes these unintended decisions every time an individual chooses a mate about which "direction" they would like the species to go.

      Asexual reproduction doesn't provide an organism the opportunity to make intelligent decisions about the genetic material of its offspring.

      There is an interesting book on this topic called "The Mating Mind : How sexual choice shaped the evolution of human nature". It's interesting that sometimes a characteristic may be chosen not out of suitability to survival, but purely out of a kind of "cultural" preference that develops. E.g. Orangotans at some point in their past must have decided they like to be that particular shade of orange. We may "culturally" decide that blondes are hot, thereby "guiding" our species towards becoming increasingly blonde (although that is unlikely to happen, it's just an example).

    6. Re:QUESTION #4: WHY SEX? by mcc · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If the advantage of sexual reproduction is so great, why did giardia give it up?

      Because they're an intestinal parasite and don't need it?

      We can consistently see that asexual reproduction is popular among simple life and sexual reproduction is popular among complex life. This post in this thread gives a possible reason why. Is it that unreasonable to suspect that the more complex a lifeform is, the more benefit sexual reproduction confers? And if we are to take this suspicion seriously, then why would it be surprising that computer simulated models-- which by their very essence are simple-- would fail to demonstrate this benefit? And why would it be surprising that an organism that at one time used sexual reproduction would revert to exclusive use of asexual reproduction after settling into a very simple evolutionary niche, as giardia has?

      I do not really see anything in your post that contradicts the purported advantages of sexual reproduction.

    7. Re:QUESTION #4: WHY SEX? by Dice+Fivefold · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Sexual reproduction is best explained by "selfish genes". It is obvious that sexual reproduction increases the rate of beneficial mutations, thereby helping the species to adapt faster to a changing environment. Good adaption leads to further reproduction and so on. On the other hand, the mutations is slowly changing the entire organism, effectivly deleting the original genepool. This might be seen as a contradiction; if the genepool of all species with sexual reproduction eventually are deleted, there should be no such species left. By taking focus of the species and on to the individual genes, we see that there is no contradiction. Clearly, the only genes which benefits from sexual reproduction in the long run, are the sex genes themselves. And that is all that is needed, that they can copy themselves to new generations. The avida program will have trouble explaining sex because 1) the "genome" is to small and 2) the genome is not divided into genes.

    8. Re:QUESTION #4: WHY SEX? by geekboy642 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      It sharpens the pitch. i.e., the poorer organisms will be more frail, and the better will be more strong. This improves the likelihood that a good organism will "win" over some poorer one.
      If they were too alike, more of the many small yet beneficial mutations would be lost in the noise.

      --
      Just another "DOJ fascist authoritarian totalitarian bootlicker" -- Zeio
  2. Hyperion by Umbral+Blot · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Dan Simmons included this idea in his Hyperion book series, where evolving digital life spead into the "infosphere" and became artifically intelligent. Later it tried to exploit the human race and wipe out large portions of it. People who download the project beware!

  3. virus? by mottie · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I wonder how long until the first virus based on this code is released?

    1. Re:virus? by FleaPlus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Here's another scary idea:

      What if the viruses made use of something like Freenet to anonymously communicate with humans, who could "help out" their evolution. For example, if a new vulnerability is discovered a malicious could put together some exploit code and stick it on Freenet. The virus could then locate such code fragments on freenet, and produce mutated offspring which incorporates those code fragments.

      Hypothetically, such a virus could remain active as long as unpatched exploits exist.

  4. Why not accelerate the evolution? by Duke+Machesne · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'd like to see this run as a distributed computing project, as a sort of race to achieve measurable consciousnessness among the organisms.

  5. AI getting out of control by ShatteredDream · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The only sentience that humans have experience with is our own, and I think it is safe to conclude that most scientists working on AI projects would try to replicate human sentience either intentionally or unintentially. Human beings have a very, very robust survival instinct and are extremely destructive when threatened. Do we really want to take the risk that we will create an AI that has our suvival instinct as well as a human-style thought process?

    I have caught flak for it in the past, but I have argued for a constitutional amendment banning the U.S. military from employing robotic combat units as anything more than a small minority of our combat forces. The last thing we need is either a weak AI or strong AI being used as the basis for taking over our military and then taking over our country. That's always seemed to be Hollywood's greatest feare. He who controls the AI controls the nation. From Terminator to the Matrix, the dark side of AI has been presented, but how many people don't take it seriously because it's "just a movie?"

    I have no problem with limited AI research, but I'll be the first to admit that I am something of a technophobe when it comes to AI. It's simply because of the fact that what we are doing is a playing God with a type of intelligence that is quite suitable for quickly taking total control over our civilization. It makes as much sense to me as putting our worst enemy in charge of our national defense in exchange for a nice chunk of change every month.

    This is the classical arrogance. We think that we can control another intelligent being. If we can't control a third world nation that can't possibly wage a real war against us without being obliterated from the face of God's creation within literally a few days if we tried hard, then how can we control a mechanical intelligence that can adapt and grow and potentially learn how to control everything from Wall Street to our strategic defense?

    The reason that T3 was so scary to me was that it was the ultimate combination of a rogue AI and grid computing. The only way to stop that new version of skynet would be a scorched Earth policy on our entire electrical grid to power off every node.

    And lastly, how on Earth do we expect to negotiate with a hostile AI? What could we possibly offer it except absolute fealty? It has no sensual desires, no use for wealth, only perhaps power over other intellects.

    1. Re:AI getting out of control by vmaxxxed · · Score: 2, Interesting


      This is like suggesting that we shall not procreate because our children could kill us.

      I think that you have seen too many movies. Getting to the point where some AI could
      kill humanity is a dream far away from inventing AI itself.

      We are just speculating about AI, and the incredible implications by having just a small
      box talking..... Think about it, sociology, philosophy, religion all of them will change for
      just having ONE box thinking.
      The reality is that AI is not so simple. Believing that we can just go and make humanoid
      like machines that not only reason like us, but model reality in the same terms as us, so
      that we can just talk to them like regular people is naïve.

      We have to understand that the first AI is going to be very difficult to understand, since
      we will have vastly different ways to interpret reality, just because our different
      "Architecture". If the latest studies in philosophy have told us something, is that our
      concept of reality is vague and very influenced by what we want it to be, and what it is
      useful to be. This is based on many factors, much of which we don't even understand.

      I believe that just the study of an AI, and its implication on our current theories of
      cognition, metaphysics and ontology will take years. To be able to understand it enough
      to be able to use it for practical purposes, and then for the military to put them in a
      position that can risk human beings is even farther away.

      In conclusion, AI is more just than a technology, it would be like discovering
      extraterrestrial life, and I am sure that, by the time we can control it and use it, we will be
      well aware of its risks and how to manage them.


      -Alejo

  6. This can't be good... by brian0918 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I just started using this thing, and all of a sudden I heard a quiet "Move zig..." over the speakers....

  7. And now the serious response: by leonbrooks · · Score: 4, Interesting
    while it confers more genetic variety, it also allows more genetic damage to collect.
    Don't mistake the map for the territory.

    While the "digital life" models may be helpful in visualising what's going on in real life, and in devising experiments to test real life with, the digital environment is about as artificial as it gets.

    That said, what the models are showing is that sexual reproduction accumulates changes faster, but does not change the quality of what accumulates. The next step will be to tweak the models even further from reality in order to see them accumulate more advantages than handicaps. Otherwise the results are too depressing.

    In analogue life (ironic that digital life should be an analogue of analogue life), genuinely advantageous mutations are collectors items - or would be.
    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  8. How far will it go? by KinkifyTheNation · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm probably sounding a little too sci-fi here but how controlled is this "controlled" envivonment. Given enough time can't it evolve past it?

  9. Progranisms by FleaPlus · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This reminds me of the "Progranisms" project I saw over on the Gentoo Linux forums:

    http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-255505-highli ght-progranism.html
    http://www.progranism.com/

    Basically some guy put together an executable which makes a few (mutated) copies of itself when it runs, then executes those copies after a short delay. The idea is that executables might evolve which show interesting behaviors.

    You can download his source code here:

    http://www.progranism.com/junk/progranism-2.3.1.c

    Because I like doing strange things, I made a variant of the program which mutates the source code and recompiles it (mutating until it gets something compilable), rather than mutating the executable directly:

    http://www.its.caltech.edu/~neilh/progranism/progr anism-neilh.c
    http://www.its.caltech.edu/~neilh/progranism/progr anism-neilh-condensed.c
    http://www.its.caltech.edu/~neilh/progranism/ (some cleanup and maintenance scripts)

    Unfortunately, it's stuck in a pretty steep local minima -- it makes some trivial mutations, but nothing major. One interesting possibility would be to have it search your hard drive for other executables and source files, and try to "mate" with those.

    Another scary possibility would be to have viruses/worms with non-trivial evolution capabilities. That'd be a pretty nasty outbreak to try to control.

    Finally, a rather neat-looking project is AI.Planet, which is trying to create an 3D evolving ecosystem/world of intelligent "organisms." Framsticks, a 3D life simulation project, is also pretty cool.

  10. Re:Tierra by mercere99 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Simple definition usually is that if two organisms can't produce viable, fertile offspring then they're of different species.

    Even in sexual organisms, this definition of species has some problems. You can easily have organism A that can breed with B, and B can breed with C, but A and C are incompatable. How do your divide up the species lines in this case?

    In general, when a new species forms, each organism has to have others it can mate with, or else they would just die out without any offspring. The speciation process is a gradual one, and so, theoretically, there is probably a path you could follow between any two sexual organisms where any pair on the path could theoretically mate.

    In Avida, for simplicity, we determine species by testing each orgasnism against the species of its parent. If it can cross-over at most points with the prototype of that species, it is marked as being part of that same species. If it cannot, we create a new species for it where it is the prototype. Not an ideal method, but it works in most cases (and we rarely need to resort to the species concept).

    What's fun, is that this even works for asexual organisms. We can force all possible crossovers (in isolation of course -- this never feeds back into the system) to see if they would have any ability to mate if they has been sexual.

    Dr. Charles Ofria
    Director, MSU Digital Evolution Lab

  11. Not as a virus, as virus writers. by refactored · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Sounds like Avida needs somes sensors and actuators. ie. Some way of outputting i386 code, and rewards for producing i386 machine code that runs.

    ie. The Avida organisms would evolve not as i386 organisms, but as Avida organisms that are rewarded for producing i386 code that gains them more CPU/Memory time/space to reproduce.

  12. Amusing quote: reaction of creationists by FleaPlus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I guess one nice thing about open source software is that even those who disagree with you can help you. :)

    From the article:

    When the Avida team published their first results on the evolution of complexity in 2003, they were inundated with e-mails from creationists. Their work hit a nerve in the antievolution movement and hit it hard. A popular claim of creationists is that life shows signs of intelligent design, especially in its complexity. They argue that complex things could never have evolved, because they don't work unless all their parts are in place. But as Adami points out, if creationists were right, then Avida wouldn't be able to produce complex digital organisms. A digital organism may use 19 or more simple routines in order to carry out the equals operation. If you delete any of the routines, it can't do the job. "What we show is that there are irreducibly complex things and they can evolve," says Adami.

    The Avida team makes their software freely available on the Internet, and creationists have downloaded it over and over again in hopes of finding a fatal flaw. While they've uncovered a few minor glitches, Ofria says they have yet to find anything serious. "We literally have an army of thousands of unpaid bug testers," he says. "What more could you want?"

  13. Re: Proof of Intelligent Design? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2, Interesting


    > On the face of it, it would seem to provide some evidence for the Intelligent Design crowd.

    No, it doesn't even provide evidence that biological evolution doesn't work, because it's just a simulator. A "failed" simulation hardle proves that the real thing doesn't work. Especially when the simulator doesn't even try to be a detailed model of the real thing.

    And even if it did provide evidence that biological evolution doesn't work, that would not be evidence of an intelligent designer.

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  14. Possible Use? by yrogerg · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "these digital life forms also once avoided scientists attempts at "killing" them"

    Imagine the video games that could come out of this?

  15. Re: Tierra by BeatlesForum.com · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Sorry, but geologists rationally took apart creationism 200 years ago.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again - the computer you're using, the chair in which you sit, the glass from which you drink all had an intelligent designer. What makes the planet and the universe different? To be quite frank, I think the chances of so many different species of life forming on one planet from some primordial soup is pretty far out there. I think it takes more faith to believe in the (ever changing) beliefs of science than to believe in the Bible.

    --
    When millions disappear from earth, it's not aliens, it's the rapture.
  16. Proof of Evolution by SuperJason · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Doesn't this prove that evolution exists? I'm not talking about the theory that WE evolved, but the fact that things evolve?

    Most people don't distingush the 2 concepts, and they just say that they don't believe in evolution, but they don't really know what evolution is, and that there are multiple types.

    I like to show that our evolution is very possible based on the fact that things DO evolve, and it would be unlikely that we are an exception to that process.

  17. The misinterpretations of the uninformed by tooyoung · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This is no news in the AI community, algorithms such as GA's long ago learned how to add numbers, etc. I won't even go into detail here as I assume most readers are aware of this

    This story is merely a case of someone who is excited about their work explaining it to an author who doesn't know as much about the subject matter. The author then turns around and writes a story for the lay-person who is not versed in the field. These people in turn jump to humorous conclusions.

    This is a common occurance in magazines such as Discover and Popular Science, as much as I enjoy them. A good example is stories on robots, such as Honda's ASIMO. People see ASIMO do amazing things and assume that in 10-15 years we will have these robots in our homes. What the articles often fail to mention is that while ASIMO can do complex tasks, it has very limited ability to recognize a situation, such as a staircase in front of it, and decide on a course of action to take, such as executing its stair climbing procedure.

    The true point of the article is that AI algorithms can teach us things about evolution. To make grand jumps and assume that these programs are even in the same playing field as SkyNet or the Matrix is to miss the main point.

    As I said above, this is merely the case of a complex subject being explained in a way that is easy to digest for the masses. Even someone who had only taken a few graduate AI courses would find that many misguided statements are made in the article.

  18. Taking it to the next level: by TqUhpiQaw · · Score: 3, Interesting

    AFAICT, at this point the system is treating food (numbers that can be added) and code (the instructions the organisms are made of) as distinct kinds of matter. How about instead of just feeding numbers into the system, postulate that code, food and maybe processor time (energy?) can be traded/transformed into each other, and are conserved at some level - e.g. a "dead" organism can serve as a food source for another.

    We could see the emergence of new behavioral patterns - predators, carrion eaters, parasites, and God knows what else.

    --
    We fetch your mail, we route your packets, we guard you while you surf. Don't fuck with us.