Slashdot Mirror
When Should You Quit Your Job?
Moe Taxes asks: "I want to hear from Slashdot readers who have quit jobs or turned down offered jobs because it was not what they wanted to do. Why did you do it? Was it ethics, ambition, pride, or disgust? And how did it turn out? Did you get to do what you wanted to do, are you still looking, or did you come back begging for another chance? I have always written software for windows, but never with Microsoft tools. I don't feel like I have enough control over the product when I use Microsoft programming environments. My company was bought recently, and is in the process of becoming a C# VisualStudio shop. I said thanks, but no thanks and left. Am I a fool for giving up steady work and good pay?"
Am I a fool for giving up steady work and good pay
Yes.
Don't ever quite (read it twice) unless you have something else in line.
Yes. I mean, ok, so it's your call. But does it really matter what OS/environment you work with? I always thought real programmers could care less... It's not like you're doing it for fun--you ARE getting paid, after all. Besides, you should have waited till you found a new job before you quit your old one.
Simple. When I get 100% vesting in the 401(k). Meanwhile, I just suck up the BS and deal.
Unless you have no use for money.
We must be alert to the danger that public policy could become captive to a scientific-technological elite. - Eisenhower
Life is very short, if you don't believe in god then this is truley the only go at things you'll have. Every day should be fun and everything you do you should enjoy, you should be interested in, it should intrigue you. Because of this you shouldn't spend time doing something you dislike, that bores you, etc. A smart person can find a good job, one that they like, one that they love, if they look hard enough.
A great indication of when you should quit your job is when you wake up every morning and dread going into work. Its okay to wish you were doing something else, but if you wake up and always hate the idea of going into the office then it is probably a good time to find a new line of work.
Be better in bed. Wikiafterdark!
Unless you were being forced to do something illegal it doesn't make a lot sense to quit a job before having another one lined up. It sucks to be forced into an unfun job situation but there is a reason why work is called work. Sometimes you have to do things that suck. Good luck on finding another job.
In this case, you probably made a mistake. Microsoft tools are excellent for Windows development. C# is easier to use than C++. If a job makes you unhappy, you shuld probably look for a new one but I don't see that there's any reason to believe that using the latest Microsoft tools for windows development will make you unhappy. Sorry.
Yes, especially if it was just because you hate M$. If you had stayed there long enough to learn C# and then decided it wasn't in your best long term interest that might have been something different. As it is you just lost a perfect opportunity to learn something new and expand your skill set.
In deciding to leave a job or not, you are looking at the wrong data. IMHO, the important thing in a job is not the OS or programming tools. The main factor is do you like working with your co-workers. If you like your fellow workers, then you are a fool to leave over the programming tools.
At the end of the day code is code no matter where you wrote it. What gets us interested in getting up and going to work each day is do we like the working environment, not the coding environment.
Everybody's been saying the same goddamned thing.
"Yes you were foolish for quitting your job."
What do you want from these people? Reassurance that you've done the right thing? They don't know you. They don't know what you're capable of, and they dont know what you want to do. Only YOU know that. Would you seriously read 100 replies and go "Shit... I KNEW I shouldn't have done that." ?
Listen man. You live ONCE. You've made your choice now move on. Go try and find something that makes you happy, and preferably pays you rather well. You know what you're capable - or not capable - of, so don't sell yourself short by asking for Career advice on Slashdot. ;)
I used to work at Microsoft (go ahead and laugh) and it was a stable and secure job aside from the fact my department was being globalized and sent to India (I could have probably found another job at Microsoft if it had come down to it).
I quit due to a number of reasons. First, it became clear to me that family obligations (unusually intensive for the time) were not going to be met if I continued to work there. But additionally (why I have not reapplied) I realized that I would be continuously underemployed because I didn't play the political games the way others expected me to.
So when I returned to the US after helping my wife get her visa, I went into business for myself.
My experience:
Don't kid yourself-- it is very (!) difficult to quit to start your own business unless you have a lot of external support (I was lucky in that regard, and it is still hard).
That being said, there is no price you can pay for the feeling of satisfaction you get from having a fulfilling job or business.
So it is your choice.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
You should quit when you have your next job lined up.
...." - those words WILL come back to haunt you (like, the *next* time you go to look for a new job, and prospective employers are calling this guy!) Make sure you give them your two weeks (they may offer to let you go immediately or ask that you continue to work - be ready either way).
That is, when you have the offer of employment from your new employer, and a starting date set.
I had a friend who did the "take this job and shove it" trick with what was truely a bad situation. However, it was several months before he had another job lined up, and he very nearly had to file for bankrupcy. It *did* screw his credit up for a long time, due to the amount of debt he racked up during that time.
All jobs suck - but some more than others.
So you should ask yourself, "Realistically, does this job suck worse than any new job I might get?"
Assuming the answer is "HELL YES!", then start looking for a new job - BUT DON'T LET YOUR CURRENT EMPLOYER KNOW. Make sure you tell any headhunters you work with that you don't want your current employer contacted.
Look long and well - do everything you can do to insure that your new job will suck less than your current job.
Then, when they offer you a position, set your start date no earlier than two and a half weeks into the future, get the formal (and legally binding) letter of offer and your letter of acceptance.
THEN, and ONLY then, do you go to your current boss and tender your resignation. And no matter how strong the temptation, no matter what you feel your justification is, no matter how badly you'd like to tell them off, resign in a calm, professional manner. This world is too damn small to say "First of all, you ain't no good, never been no good, you smell like old wet cheese, you pay shit
Also, when changing jobs, you are shaking your world up - so do your best to save up some emergency money before hand, and even if your new job pays 4x what you were making - act as though you were making your old salary and save the difference - at least for a year. Remember, last in, first out.
You may want to quit today - you may go home every night grinding your teeth, but USE that anger to drive your job search - remember, while your current job may suck, imagine how much MORE it will suck if you have to go crawling back in order to keep a roof over your head!
www.eFax.com are spammers
Take the higher paying job. Less to have to deal moving.
If you really and truely want a degree, you can take night courses at a local school, or even online.
As a manager with programing experience, don't forget the people you manage where once just like you.
design your own programs on the side, to fufill your programing desires. or 'help' out the Testing and patching sections during quiet times of the year.
Now if the more expensive job required relocation that's a different story. The headache of moving, and a new job may or may not be worth the higher salary.
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
I don't have the experiance to tell you if it will matter or not but I would take the 3X pay and higher title. I mean, check everything out first and make sure it's a stable job and not some fly by night crap and go for it. Let your current employer know you really appreciate their offer and if things do not work out you would like to come back perhaps. If you're as good as you say, they will make a space for you. Really, really good programmers are hard to find.
But, you have an opportunity to make some really good scratch right now and hell, take night classes and slowly finish your degree if it's important to you.
Keep inmind though, if your current employer is going to pay for your school, that could be the same as a huge pay raise. Follow your heart but money talks and if you're going to be making that much more, the money is screaming at you.
You can still program on OSS projects, etc. Now your programming becomes a hobby and you can afford a really nice chair to sit in at home.
I'd take the money, considering it seems like a stable position.
"If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer
I disagree. It is always easier to get a job if you are working. Employers just feel better about hiring you if you are working. If they think you will quit without having a backup job, then they think it will be easier for you to quit them. Also there is a sense of accomplishment in "stealing" a good employee from another company.
That said, I want to respond to the original question. I have turned down a lot of jobs in my life. I have always done it for the same reason, because I liked what I was doing. I have said for years, "If I did not like what I do, I would do something else."
I just recently changed jobs. I did it for job satisfaction. I switched to a job where I feel I am better respected. I get paid more. There are perks like travel and training that I did not have at the old job. I have been telling everyone, "This is the job I have worked towards for the last ten years."
Insert Generic Sig Here:
Life is too short to work at a job that you hate.
Look at people who you consider successful. How many of them chose to remain at a boring job for a long time?
Now, look at your current workplace. Can you see yourself being there in 3-5 years?
What do you want to do when you are 40? What are your long term goals? Will your current job help you to reach your goals?
However, staying in your current job will buy you time, if you can put up with the boredom for a short time. If you stay employyed, you can be more relaxed in your job search, and not be forced to take a new job that you will hate. Obviously, it will be harder to find time to look for a job if you stay employeed, but you can try to make time.
Plus, many potential employeers will take you more seriously when you already have a job.
If you ARE stuck at a job, then just make sure you have a good life outside of work. If you hate your job, and you hate your non-work life; it is time to reevaluate your situation.
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
Not saying that it's "bad advice" - but perhaps it's just over-simplistic?
I agree that life is too short, and there's ultimately no real point to spending most of it doing work you loathe.
But there's a flip-side to this. Job searches and the uncertainty of when you'll be able to get the bills paid can be more stressful than a job you don't particularly like.
Furthermore, it's quite possible to discover something you truly enjoy doing on your own terms and conditions, which doesn't ever seem to really translate into a "job you enjoy" when working for someone else. For example, I've always had an interest and enjoyment of music - and used to be told I had a "pleasant reading voice" and the like. Therefore, I had an idea that I'd enjoy becoming a radio DJ. Know what? After going to college and taking a few courses towards this goal - I realized there was no way I'd ever like it! The problem? Practically nobody in the commercial radio business is willing to turn over control to a DJ. The DJ is basically a "robot", playing the music pre-designated in set lists, and required to only speak for X number of seconds or minutes each hour, at pre-designated time slots in the program. That's not at all what I envisioned would make being a DJ fun!
All of that being said, I think there's nothing at all to be ashamed of to say "Look, I'm not comfortable writing your software using *this* set of tools (or for *this* platform)." Only you can really make that judgement call. To me, it's rather like being a carpenter, and suddenly being told "We're taking away your entire toolbox, because our business partnered up with Black & Decker. You can only use Black & Decker saws, drills, hand tools, etc. from here on out. Here's your new set of tools, and if you need ones they don't make - you just have to do without! Enjoy!" Some people might get by fine under those conditions, but it surely wouldn't do for every carpenter out there.
Last year, after quite a few months of crabbing about my job I decided the company was not going in a direction I wanted to participate in. This involved a change in ownership from the founder to the VP Sales and the company culture changed from having a touchy-feely opendoor management style to having an authoritarian absentee CEO who hired management consultants and the whole Office Space rigamarole. I had saved up a chunk of money and I live in a rent-controlled apartment, so I quit. I had always thought that if a company I worked for was either sold or started hiring management consultants that I would quit immediately, but I liked my coworkers and there still remained some vestiges of the old way, so I waited a few months. I've taken the time off (since last May) to relax, do some traveling, and basically not think about having a job for awhile. I'm just now starting to get bored and am in the job market, but I feel this was just fine even though my family and some of my friends are of the "jobs are like women: don't quit one before you have another" mindset. You know your situation best and can plan for the future, though. If you're not hurting, I recommend taking at least a few weeks to figure out what was wrong with what you left so you can look for jobs that are more than "anything besides this" desperation.
When I was a kid, we only had one Darth.
Option 3: if you'd really be making 2-3 times more than you're making now. You could sell out for three or four years and then retire for a few years on the savings (assuming you had the discipline to maintain your current spending habits) to start a consulting company or something. Take the time you're working to finish your degree (in Comp. Sci) which will also help you keep your programming skills up.
Waltz, nymph, for quick jigs vex Bud.
and been re-hired 3 times, though each was a unique circumstance. But NEVER ask to go back...it almost never works out and you mostly never get to find out honest answers about why they don't want you back.
The happiest outcomes seem to stem from leaving a large, stale, hide-bound bureaucratic corporation [defense contractor in my case] for a raw startup with maybe 1st round funding...the new situation should be fluid and even if it is risky, it can be absolutely engaging and require all the energy and smarts you possess. Unless you are a weak performer, you will usually not wait too long between jobs and in the end, the jobs you will be fondest off will be the ones that needed you the most and let you be the best programmer you were capable of being. This is, of course, MHO: your personality and comfort level in uncertain circumstances is a huge part of the decision.
I should temper this idealism a bit. A startup either grows up and each programmer's role shrinks, or it fails and you go looking again. That optimum state of programmerly grace is fleeting yet you don't want to be a start-up junky. A good rule of thumb [I've heard it from others who have worked in the same ways at the same companies as I] is about 3 years at a start up. You are either rich by then or have settled into some role with depleted novelty and challenges...or you are suddenly cleaning the pizza boxes and coke cans out of your cube and using the pink slip to book mark where you left off in your latest programming manual. It is no shame and in some quarters a sign of your value that you went down with the ship. YMMV but JUMP anyway 'cause life is short.
SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
There are many different types of people in the world. I don't know which one you are, but not everyone can manage well, nor wants to. You sound like you've found what you're happy with. The money you get with a managerial role and no formal training may be offset by increased stress, and frustration at a job that's not necessarily as easy for you nor makes you as happy.
Case in point, as a manager with people under you, you'll have to rate them, listen to them, and be responsible to make them play nicely together. Are you stong with social interaction? Do you listen well? Do people respect you and see you as a leader?
The "Peter Principle" says good people get promoted to their "level of incompetence". Make sure that never applies to you, because you'll be miserable and that will affect the people you manage as well as your new set of co-workers.
Money isn't everything. One serious illness caused by stress can wipe it all out faster than the IRS.
Good luck in whatever you decide!
"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein
In addition to all of the advice above keep in mind this: people who become professional managers are just as much geeks as those who program.
By that I mean people who become executives and mid- and upper level managers are people who should love the political/people stuff as much as a programmer loves technology.
Think about mid to senior management as the equivalent of mid to senior level developers -- how much time and energy have they spent working on the skills that matter in a political, people-everything environment? Just as much as the developers did in their coding and technical stuff, if not more. And they're just as motivated as well.
Be sure that you're comfortable in making a jump to that kind of peer group!
Whats your current salary? 3x $20k isn't as significant as 3x $60k...
Personally I would be very wary of a salary increase that high. Take a look at the company and how stable it is. That is the kind of hiring that I have seen in the past from startups that think they have a lot to spend, but either wind up crashing and burning or going through a firing cycle when they figure out they have paid too much. Do you think you are that severely underpaid compared to your peers? If not then just looking at the dollar signs in a job situation like this might not be worth it in the end....
News Reporters Make Tasty Polar Bear Treats!
I can second this. I'm 28, and at least five years younger than anyone else working at my company. Fully two thirds of our employees are over 40, and we have several greybeards here who are in the late 50's, even late 60's. Believe me, programming skill does *not* lessen with age; it can sharpen to the point where, like the parent says... coding is simply instinct. We also have the kind of management that laughs uproariously when someone mentions overseas projects, and has taken up projects that are being brought back from overseas in shambles.
It's a really smooth, calm, sane work environment. It would literally take someone offering me more than double my current salary to get me to leave, because I'm reasonably sure this will be the best job I ever have, in terms of working environment.
I think that idea of 'only young people make good programmers' has passed its time. The field has become too mature for an illusion like that to continue any longer. Good programmers are good programmers, and that's all there is to it. If you're good, you're all set.
Hell is being intelligent in a world full of idiots.
My company was bought recently, and is in the process of becoming a C# VisualStudio shop. I said thanks, but no thanks and left. Am I a fool for giving up steady work and good pay?
The short answer is: yes, you are.
Given the crappy state of the industry as it is right now, quitting a high paying job over a (minor?) technology direction change is probably not a very bright idea. It sounds even worse if you factor in your apparent lack of experience with the new environment - you don't even stick around long enough to give it a try, right?
That being said, I can understand your choice. I don't particularly like the MS tools style, always have been more of a Borland type. But it goes deeper than this:
There are really two types of developers, namely the mercenaries and the artists. Most people are mercenaries. They just come to work, and as long as things are not absolutely terrible, they just do exactly what was specified. Then, after 8 hours, they pack up and leave their workplace to do whatever their real interests are. If you're a mercenary, it's totally stupid for you to quit over a tools issue like this.
The Artists, on the other hand, are people who shape the projects they implement. They are the ones with the vision, the ones who invest their soul into the product. If you're an artist, commands from management, like a change in technology or tools, can have a huge impact. Such a change can make your environment hostile, especially if the new direction conflicts with your ideals. Frankly, you don't sound like an artist, but if you are one, you have to quit over this and start over somewhere new where management shares your values and ideals.
Most companies really frown on the artist thing. They'd rather hire 5 mercenaries than 1 artist. Artists are difficult to manage traditionally, and they impose a constant danger of doing things that run contrary to the pointy-haired-boss school of business.
Did you complain to management or to the police? Assault with a deadly weapon isn't something the police usually take lightly.
In fact, many bosses aren't even around to notice the extra effort you are putting in to your job, since they went home long ago. Some will mistake detication for free productivity - and just keep handing you enough work to make sure you keep eating lunch and dinner at your desk, and forfit a personal life.
Instead, I suggest that it is EVERY employee's responsibility to maintain an active communication stream (even PR) with his boss, and co-workers. Document what you do. Make the documentation readily available/obvious. Send an UN-solicited status report email to your boss at LEAST once per month, twice is better. The fact that the boss got something extra that was NOT asked for should make it stand out, and instantly suspect -but this is actually for YOUR benefit, not just the boss. Include some form of *question* about your work in the email, asking how to procede, or priorities, whatever... Because of that question, the boss has to at least acknowlege that you sent the message, and s/he read it. If you don't get a reply, mention it in the hall or on the phone a day later, when you are talking about something else. After a few of these, the boss figures you are involving them in the decision process - and your subsequent emails DO get read with a little more detail - in case there were other questions.
Include a simple list of current tasks, and recent accomplishments. Including priority expected hours, requirements, problems, deliverables. If the boss wants to change the priority, OK- if not, then they have implied agreement with your current plan of action, in writing, which reduces disputes later.
BE productive, but don't be taken for granted.
Bummer- but that's life, (and they werent paying for late hours anyway, were they...)
In fact, make it a firm policy to finish what you are working on 10 min before the end of your day, spend 5 min documenting things, 5 min to tidy up or pack your stuff, and then cheerfully LEAVE! (with the unspoken implication that you have already planned things after work)
Now that you have THAT working schedule in place- the boss has to specificly ASK you to work late, and perhaps even pre-schedule, since you may have other plans right after work. If the boss ASKs you to put in the extra hours, then it's no longer free volunteer labor, and you might expect to be paid too... or at least have comp-hours added for time off later. (well, you can hope)
Now- to make this work requires some personal DICIPLINE. Make the job hours PRODUCTIVE, not just THERE for nine hours.
Time management is KEY, visibility helps, deliverables rule.
-- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero